CAP Talk

Operations => Tools of the trade => Topic started by: JoeTomasone on April 01, 2013, 02:05:25 PM

Title: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JoeTomasone on April 01, 2013, 02:05:25 PM
Want a brand-new and inexpensive CAP compliant radio? Our prayers have finally been answered, and NO, this is NOT an April Fool's Day gag; this is the real deal!

Wouxun is known mostly for inexpensive Ham radios, but they have 2 commercial models that the NTC has certified as CAP compliant. They cost $175 and $150, and essentially differ in the number of channels offered. Both models have quite inexpensive accessories, including the programming cable you will need to program the radio (check with your Comm Officer for frequencies..).

http://www.powerwerx.com/wouxun-radios/kg-uv6x-dual-band-vhf-uhf-commercial.html (http://www.powerwerx.com/wouxun-radios/kg-uv6x-dual-band-vhf-uhf-commercial.html)

http://www.powerwerx.com/wouxun-radios/kg-uv3x-dual-band-vhf-uhf-125-channel-handheld-commercial-radio.html (http://www.powerwerx.com/wouxun-radios/kg-uv3x-dual-band-vhf-uhf-125-channel-handheld-commercial-radio.html)


- Your friendly neighborhood FLWG DC
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: arajca on April 01, 2013, 02:18:30 PM
For those who would like definitive proof, see the attached screen shot.

Caveat: These are not P25 radios, analog only. They will not do encryption for CAP purposes.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JeffDG on April 01, 2013, 02:25:20 PM
We have planes that are analog only, so every SAREX uses a pure analog channel plan, so no big deal there!
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: arajca on April 01, 2013, 02:46:10 PM
True, but I wanted to make sure folks were aware of it.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Brad on April 01, 2013, 04:14:28 PM
Thanks for this Joe! I've thought off and on about getting one of these for ham use. May go ahead now that I know it's NTC approved as well. If I don't find a 5100 Johnson for a better deal that is.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Eclipse on April 01, 2013, 04:25:08 PM
Noooo!  This isn't possible!  You can't buy a compliant radio for less then $5000 and then it can only be programmed by Sherpas!

Your "facts" limit my ability to complain!

Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: johnnyb47 on April 01, 2013, 05:08:24 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 01, 2013, 04:25:08 PM
Noooo!  This isn't possible!  You can't buy a compliant radio for less then $5000 and then it can only be programmed by Sherpas!

Your "facts" limit my ability to complain!
Thanks. Now my office thinks I'm crazy for laughing hysterically. :)

Ordered one of the UV6X radios just now.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Woodsy on April 01, 2013, 07:06:48 PM
When I found out about this and told the good Maj. Tomasone yesterday, he thought I was pulling an April fools joke on him! We have talked at length about the NTC's inability to approve any radio under an arm and a leg, even though there are many that are compliant, such as this.  I think this is a good step forward, hopefully the progress will continue and we'll have some others added to the list.

Johnnyb47, when you're up and running, can you post a review for us?  Also, did you order any of the accessories? 
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: arajca on April 01, 2013, 08:26:04 PM
Here is a consideration...

Since the ISRs are no longer available, and were actually fairly cheap (~$80, IIRC), perhaps something like this could be a replacement radio for them. Admittedly, we'll need to make sure we only use the simplex for most activities, but it'll help reduce the belt-load of folks. Perhaps getting a couple additional simplex frequencies could also help or using the repeater in or out with unique PL tones would help. 
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: wuzafuzz on April 01, 2013, 11:47:16 PM
 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Well son of a gun.  It's about time.  These will make great radios for many members who where essentially shut out of comm when the narrowband requirements hit.  They don't do P25 or encryption, but we don't use those modes most of the time anyway.  There may be times when our customers insist on encryption, but the rest of the time we can rock the affordable radios.

Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: a2capt on April 02, 2013, 12:23:01 AM
Here's the 200 channel version at Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/KG-UV6D-Handheld-136-174-400-480-Transceiver/dp/B0076T2C9U/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1364861926&sr=1-3&keywords=Wouxun) for $141 .. Same programming cable as Baofeng.

/me mumbles something about radio vendors with names that sound like speech impediments.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: PHall on April 02, 2013, 12:35:12 AM
Quote from: arajca on April 01, 2013, 08:26:04 PM
Here is a consideration...

Since the ISRs are no longer available, and were actually fairly cheap (~$80, IIRC), perhaps something like this could be a replacement radio for them. Admittedly, we'll need to make sure we only use the simplex for most activities, but it'll help reduce the belt-load of folks. Perhaps getting a couple additional simplex frequencies could also help or using the repeater in or out with unique PL tones would help.

One of the best things about the ISR's is that they are NOT on CAP frequencies.
Everytime we've used "CAP" radios at activities such as Encampments or airshows we have to deal with the self-appointed, holier-then-thou, CAP "Radio Police".
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Eclipse on April 02, 2013, 12:42:26 AM
Quote from: PHall on April 02, 2013, 12:35:12 AM
Quote from: arajca on April 01, 2013, 08:26:04 PM
Here is a consideration...

Since the ISRs are no longer available, and were actually fairly cheap (~$80, IIRC), perhaps something like this could be a replacement radio for them. Admittedly, we'll need to make sure we only use the simplex for most activities, but it'll help reduce the belt-load of folks. Perhaps getting a couple additional simplex frequencies could also help or using the repeater in or out with unique PL tones would help.

One of the best things about the ISR's is that they are NOT on CAP frequencies.
Everytime we've used "CAP" radios at activities such as Encampments or airshows we have to deal with the self-appointed, holier-then-thou, CAP "Radio Police".

?

There's no reason you can't use CAP frequencies at airshows and encampments.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: wuzafuzz on April 02, 2013, 01:11:09 AM
Quote from: PHall on April 02, 2013, 12:35:12 AM
One of the best things about the ISR's is that they are NOT on CAP frequencies.
Everytime we've used "CAP" radios at activities such as Encampments or airshows we have to deal with the self-appointed, holier-then-thou, CAP "Radio Police".

I'm not a self-appointed, holier than thou, CAP Radio Police Officer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once or twice.   ;)

It's true ISR's don't use CAP frequencies, but they are federal frequencies.  All the same rules apply.  Believe it or not that even applies to CAP use of FRS radios.  See CAPR 100-1 para 9-13:
Quote
9-13. FRS/ISR Procedures.
Operations with either ISR or FRS radios should use normal CAP operating procedures, including call signs. To operate either FRS or ISR without supervision, operators must be qualified as a radio operator under paragraph 5-2 of this regulation.

That means the FRS bubble pack radios we can use for anything but ES,are completely legal to use without any training...until you use them during CAP activities.  Then you are supposed to be a CAP authorized radio operator! 

Even if we don't like it, those are the rules we agreed to follow when we joined, and each time we renewed our CAP membership.  So as long as those radio coppers are being decent about keeping us on the right side of the rules, be nice to them.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming.  Enjoy the fact we now have access to inexpensive and easily programmed VHF radios for CAP use.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Spaceman3750 on April 02, 2013, 03:22:33 AM
Ya know, I sometimes find myself loaning out my personal radio to someone on my team when I have a larger team, usually if I'm breaking off a hasty team or I just want a little CYA when it comes to people wrangling. Now I don't have to loan out my $$$ Motorola >:D.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JeffDG on April 02, 2013, 03:22:11 PM
Quote from: arajca on April 01, 2013, 08:26:04 PM
Here is a consideration...

Since the ISRs are no longer available, and were actually fairly cheap (~$80, IIRC), perhaps something like this could be a replacement radio for them. Admittedly, we'll need to make sure we only use the simplex for most activities, but it'll help reduce the belt-load of folks. Perhaps getting a couple additional simplex frequencies could also help or using the repeater in or out with unique PL tones would help.
The new Communications Table of Allowances requires that portable VHF radios support both P25 and encryption.  That means we cannot purchase any of these radios with AF funds under to ToA.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Eclipse on April 02, 2013, 03:28:26 PM
Why would anyone use USAF funds for these?  And for that matter, where would those USAF funds come from?
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JeffDG on April 02, 2013, 03:36:46 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 02, 2013, 03:28:26 PM
Why would anyone use USAF funds for these?  And for that matter, where would those USAF funds come from?
Just making a comment on the idea of replacing ISRs with something like this.

ISRs are covered in the ToA, actually quite a large number of them. 

Sorry, I'm a Wing DC, and I've been doing an in-depth analysis of the new ToA for my wing to bring us into compliance with it.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Eclipse on April 02, 2013, 03:49:31 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on April 02, 2013, 03:36:46 PMSorry, I'm a Wing DC, and I've been doing an in-depth analysis of the new ToA for my wing to bring us into compliance with it.

I'm still waiting for comment from our DC who's doing the same thing - I have to approve the ES radios that are / will be issued.
I was about 1/2 done with the process when he said "hold off, things are changing".  Haven't heard back yet.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JeffDG on April 02, 2013, 04:51:17 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 02, 2013, 03:49:31 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on April 02, 2013, 03:36:46 PMSorry, I'm a Wing DC, and I've been doing an in-depth analysis of the new ToA for my wing to bring us into compliance with it.

I'm still waiting for comment from our DC who's doing the same thing - I have to approve the ES radios that are / will be issued.
I was about 1/2 done with the process when he said "hold off, things are changing".  Haven't heard back yet.
It's different, that's for sure.

If you're (or your DC is interested), I have a spreadsheet that calculates a lot of the stuff.  My major issue is the allocation of portable (handheld) radios will be a radical change for us.  Not necessarily bad, but different, and that means friction when we make the changes...luckily I have our annual Command Call to walk folks through it in person rather than some impersonal e-mail.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Eclipse on April 02, 2013, 05:05:24 PM
Yes, please!  PM Sent.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JeffDG on April 02, 2013, 05:11:11 PM
Replied, and also sent the spreadsheet to the CAP-DC mailing list too...
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: kd8gua on April 03, 2013, 05:30:38 AM
Talk about lightening the belt load... these radios are not only tiny, but dual band, which means they actually cover CAP, ISR, and FRS. Yes, if you want to stay within the confines of regulations, you wouldn't transmit on FRS or ISR, but in reality, there are plenty of occasions where activities (Airshows, Encampments, etc) where both ISR and VHF are used, making some staff members carry multiple radios. That's all taken care of with this!
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: SarDragon on April 03, 2013, 05:57:40 AM
According to what I've read, and been told, only radios specifically certified for ISR and FRS can be used on those bands. The rules are pretty specific about that.

FCC guidance on FRS and GMRS:

If you operate a device that has been approved exclusively under the rules that apply to FRS you are not required to have a license. FRS devices have a maximum power of ½ watt (500 milliwatt) effective radiated power and integral (non-detachable) antennas. If you operate a device under the rules that apply to GMRS, you must have a GMRS license. GMRS devices generally transmit at higher power levels (1 to 5 watts is typical) and may have detachable antennas.

MURS guidance:

You can operate a MURS device in any place where the FCC regulates radio communications. A MURS device must be certified by the FCC. A certified MURS device has an identifying label placed on it by the manufacturer. No MURS unit, under any condition of modulation, shall exceed 2 Watts transmitter power output.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on April 03, 2013, 11:45:49 AM
SAR-

Since NTIA is the organization we look at when doing communications, what do they say about these radios? Wouldn't it be possible the FCC says one thing, and NTIA says "these radios can be used in such and such by Federal agencies?"

Flyer
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JeffDG on April 03, 2013, 11:52:13 AM
Quote from: flyer333555 on April 03, 2013, 11:45:49 AM
SAR-

Since NTIA is the organization we look at when doing communications, what do they say about these radios? Wouldn't it be possible the FCC says one thing, and NTIA says "these radios can be used in such and such by Federal agencies?"

Flyer
Don't quote me on this, but if you're operating on FCC frequencies, you really need to follow FCC rules.  ISRs operate on federal government frequencies, while FRS is a public piece of spectrum.  CAPR 100-1 forbids use of GMRS at all.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: wuzafuzz on April 03, 2013, 11:52:54 AM
The approved Wouxon's will be great radios for a lot of members. There are some limitations since they don't do digital or encryption, but they will work for a lot of our needs.

The reality is: 

Part of the beauty of these dual-band radios is they cover some UHF services like business bands, GMRS, and amateur.  Of course none of those are permitted for CAP use, but properly licensed members can use one radio for CAP and non-CAP needs.  There is even some potential for liaison use on UHF interoperability frequencies.

So, these are good little radios.  But don't give up your ISRs just yet.

Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: wuzafuzz on April 03, 2013, 11:59:51 AM
CAPR 100-1. Para 9-11 states, in part:
"...Only radios specifically manufactured for the ISR service (currently available only from ICOM) are authorized and they will not be modified in any way, including the addition of external antennas or amplifiers..."
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: SarDragon on April 03, 2013, 06:23:30 PM
Quote from: flyer333555 on April 03, 2013, 11:45:49 AM
SAR-

Since NTIA is the organization we look at when doing communications, what do they say about these radios? Wouldn't it be possible the FCC says one thing, and NTIA says "these radios can be used in such and such by Federal agencies?"

Flyer

The FCC is a subset of the NTIA, to whom has been ceded all communications affairs not involving government entities. This may be over simplified, but that generally how it functions. There is very little, if any overlap in frequency usage - FCC has their bucketful, and NTIA has theirs. FRS, GMRS, and MURS belong to the FCC; ISR belongs to the government/NTIA.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on April 03, 2013, 08:32:45 PM
I was aware of there being separate frequencies and entities.

At the same time I asked in case there had been made some changes. We all know that technology changes almost from day to day, so when someone-the OP-brought news of these new radios, just wanted to double-check whether there had been a change in that aspect as well.

Flyer
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: SarDragon on April 03, 2013, 09:03:11 PM
According to what I just read on the FCC site, no.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JoeTomasone on April 04, 2013, 12:26:44 AM
Quote from: JeffDG on April 03, 2013, 11:52:13 AM
Quote from: flyer333555 on April 03, 2013, 11:45:49 AM
SAR-

Since NTIA is the organization we look at when doing communications, what do they say about these radios? Wouldn't it be possible the FCC says one thing, and NTIA says "these radios can be used in such and such by Federal agencies?"

Flyer
Don't quote me on this, but if you're operating on FCC frequencies, you really need to follow FCC rules.  ISRs operate on federal government frequencies, while FRS is a public piece of spectrum.  CAPR 100-1 forbids use of GMRS at all.


The radios have been FCC type accepted for Part 90 operations.   NTIA does things a different way, by publishing guidelines for the transmitter/receiver specifications (the "redbook").   The sticky part for CAP is that we are the only agency that actually mandates compliance; NTIA only enforces the redbook in the case of interference.   Interestingly, for VHF narrowband, NTIA exempts radios used for "Military tactical and training purposes" from their standard...


Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JoeTomasone on April 04, 2013, 12:28:12 AM
Quote from: flyer333555 on April 03, 2013, 08:32:45 PM
I was aware of there being separate frequencies and entities.

At the same time I asked in case there had been made some changes. We all know that technology changes almost from day to day, so when someone-the OP-brought news of these new radios, just wanted to double-check whether there had been a change in that aspect as well.

Flyer

No, there's no change.  The only news is that we have an option for a low-cost VHF portable that doesn't support P25 or encryption, which, quite frankly, I don't expect to be a problem for some time to come.

Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: wuzafuzz on April 08, 2013, 11:59:42 AM
"Programming is Successed." :-)

Now that I have one of these radios in my paws, I learned a few things:

The free programming software is really basic and is kind of weird.  However, it gets the job done.  Plus it works with the RT systems cable I bought for my ham radio (UV3D).

Some of the options for button programming will do more harm than good for the "non-technical user."  Those people probably never want to see VFO mode, or be faced with the choice of which PL tone to use.  Some other features, like SOS mode, have little to no value I can see. On the flip side, that silly "flashlight"...i honestly laughed when i first saw it...turns out to be surprisingly useful.

All the VHF analog CAP stuff programs up just fine.

Speaker audio is nice and loud without sounding distorted.

Scanning is slow enough i wont bother using it. But...thanks to dual channel selectors I like being able to monitor my local repeater and CAPGUARD at the same time. I wish the display would give a hint as to which channel is active, but that's a minor nit.

Enter Geek Territory
The free software and the RT Systems software for a UV3D (ham radio version) is not compatible with the compliant UV3X and the UV6X. Files from those radios don't work with the X series software either.

If you are licensed for GMRS: the X radio will not TX wideband on GMRS freqs. Both the software and menu programming reject wideband, probably thanks to a firmware rule for that frequency range.  Of course that's not an issue for CAP use, but member owned radios often serve more than one purpose.  Especially with comm geeks like me.
Exit Geek Territory

Overall, a nice, small, functional radio.  When properly configured it will serve the average CAP user well.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: SarDragon on April 09, 2013, 12:20:14 AM
Well,  since I promised myself a new radio if I passed my ham exam(s) (Tech and General) last weekend, I'll be stopping by HRO on Thursday to spend some money.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: wuzafuzz on April 09, 2013, 12:55:11 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on April 09, 2013, 12:20:14 AM
Well,  since I promised myself a new radio if I passed my ham exam(s) (Tech and General) last weekend, I'll be stopping by HRO on Thursday to spend some money.
:clap: :clap: :clap:
73 de N6RFI
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Garibaldi on April 09, 2013, 04:09:19 PM
Quote from: wuzafuzz on April 09, 2013, 12:55:11 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on April 09, 2013, 12:20:14 AM
Well,  since I promised myself a new radio if I passed my ham exam(s) (Tech and General) last weekend, I'll be stopping by HRO on Thursday to spend some money.
:clap: :clap: :clap:
73 de N6RFI

My sister just passed her Tech, now she is rarin' to get her general and is dragging her with me. My whole family are now Hams.

73, KD5PHZ
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: johnnyb47 on April 09, 2013, 05:47:52 PM
We should get the NTC to get a look at the Baofeng UV-5r. $45 and it does 2.5khz steps. (EDIT: Guess they did. No go.)

Just received my Wouxun today. Will get a look when i get home.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: SarDragon on April 09, 2013, 08:56:42 PM
I'm official - KK6DKE!
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Woodsy on April 09, 2013, 09:48:38 PM
Quote from: johnnyb47 on April 09, 2013, 05:47:52 PM
We should get the NTC to get a look at the Baofeng UV-5r. $45 and it does 2.5khz steps. (EDIT: Guess they did. No go.)

Just received my Wouxun today. Will get a look when i get home.

I saw that.  I wonder why it was rejected?  Taking a look at the specs, it seems to meet the standards, and just about identical to the wouxum.  The only thing I can think of is that it is 4 watts when most portables are 5. 

Maybe they just can't get over the $45 factor...  Could it be that they don't want everyone and their brother having a radio with CAP freq's? 
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JeffDG on April 09, 2013, 09:57:51 PM
Quote from: Woodsy on April 09, 2013, 09:48:38 PM
Quote from: johnnyb47 on April 09, 2013, 05:47:52 PM
We should get the NTC to get a look at the Baofeng UV-5r. $45 and it does 2.5khz steps. (EDIT: Guess they did. No go.)

Just received my Wouxun today. Will get a look when i get home.

I saw that.  I wonder why it was rejected?  Taking a look at the specs, it seems to meet the standards, and just about identical to the wouxum.  The only thing I can think of is that it is 4 watts when most portables are 5. 

Maybe they just can't get over the $45 factor...  Could it be that they don't want everyone and their brother having a radio with CAP freq's?

From the NTC site:
QuoteInsufficient specs, and not measured to EIA-603C standard.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Woodsy on April 09, 2013, 11:15:14 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on April 09, 2013, 09:57:51 PM
Quote from: Woodsy on April 09, 2013, 09:48:38 PM
Quote from: johnnyb47 on April 09, 2013, 05:47:52 PM
We should get the NTC to get a look at the Baofeng UV-5r. $45 and it does 2.5khz steps. (EDIT: Guess they did. No go.)

Just received my Wouxun today. Will get a look when i get home.

I saw that.  I wonder why it was rejected?  Taking a look at the specs, it seems to meet the standards, and just about identical to the wouxum.  The only thing I can think of is that it is 4 watts when most portables are 5. 

Maybe they just can't get over the $45 factor...  Could it be that they don't want everyone and their brother having a radio with CAP freq's?

From the NTC site:
QuoteInsufficient specs, and not measured to EIA-603C standard.

Ah,  that's new.  Last time I looked it just said "insufficient specs. 

Now I gotta go research what that standard is...
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: N7MOG on April 15, 2013, 01:37:57 AM
Great little units.  A ham friend has had a Wouxon for about a year and a half.  It matches or beats my Kenwood TH-F6A for quality and signal. I figure this new model will shine as well. I only wish that these were around 8+ years ago when I bought my pair of KW's. Heck, I could have had 4 radios for the same money!  Ok, I would have bought 2 with more goodies.... (N7MOG)
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: arajca on April 15, 2013, 03:13:13 AM
Doing some frequency checking...
The KG-UV6X will receive ISR frequencies. It will not transmit on them. Presuming the 3X has the same receive range, it should do the same.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: SarDragon on April 15, 2013, 04:16:28 AM
Well, I got mine last Thursday, and so far I like it. I bought the RST programming software, and it works well. It allows importing CSV files, so I can build a code plug in Excel, and pop it right in.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: johnnyb47 on April 15, 2013, 02:05:33 PM
So far I like mine.
The build is pretty good quality, the controls are decent and the audio is pretty clear.
I haven't gotten the programming software to work on my laptop though.
I'll have to fight with that later this week. Having the same issue with my other radios on this laptop though so I'm sure it's something I have installed already causing the issue.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: avguy on April 17, 2013, 04:55:38 AM
Quote from: arajca on April 15, 2013, 03:13:13 AM
Doing some frequency checking...
The KG-UV6X will receive ISR frequencies. It will not transmit on them. Presuming the 3X has the same receive range, it should do the same.

The KG-UV3X Pro does receive the ISR frequencies.  I got mine last week and programmed it today.  So far, so good!
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: starshippe on April 18, 2013, 02:10:49 PM
   my o shing (?) is on the truck, enroute.
   sherpas... lmao.
   congrats kk6dke.

   i was setting up my code plug last nite and was informed that the transmitter would not transmit wide band, period. is this the case? seems odd, seeing as how there is a selection in the software spreadsheet. i only got the message when i saved the file.
   advertising specs show the low end of the 400 mhz band for transmitting is 406, of all freqs. egad.
   gonna look for the rst software, thanks for the info. the csv file import sounds very useful.

73,
bill
k4tve
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JoeTomasone on April 18, 2013, 07:15:40 PM
Don't confuse wideband with "normal" FM.   There's wideband FM (FM broadcast radio, for example), FM, and narrowband FM.

Most handheld radios do not transmit wideband FM because there is no need to.   They transmit FM and (nowadays) narrowband FM.

Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: starshippe on April 18, 2013, 07:49:42 PM
   i'm not confused about fm broadcast wideband, but i do have a need to use "hand held wideband" fm with all of my amateur radio two meter comms.
   in the spreadsheet, the choices are wide, and narrow.
   last night the software informed me that i was not allowed to program a wide band marine frequency. the marine band has not been required to switch to narrow band. i did not attempt to program a frequency below 150 mhz to wide band. this will be first on my to do list this evening when i get home from work.
   in reading about wide and narrow band, i was surprised to find that it effectively reduces the power output, although, now that i think about it, it does make sense. theres less modulation perturbating the ether.

      http://transition.fcc.gov/pshs/public-safety-spectrum/narrowbanding-faq.html#question_2_3Will (http://transition.fcc.gov/pshs/public-safety-spectrum/narrowbanding-faq.html#question_2_3Will)

thanks,
bill
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: starshippe on April 18, 2013, 11:22:43 PM

   i made an entry for 146.52, with the transmit freq blank, and it told me narrow band only. i entered 146.52 as the transmit freq, and it accepted wide band.
   so i tried the same thing with the marine freqs, but even with separate entries in the transmit freqs, i still got the narrow band only message when i saved the file.
   this is not a problem, even if it turns out that i can't use wide band on the marine band. still looking forward to the brown truck rolling up out front.

73,
bill
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: avguy on April 19, 2013, 10:56:18 AM
I found that when I started setting up the RT Systems software before connecting it to the radio, there were frequencies and settings that were within the spec of the radio that the software told me I could not enter.  After I followed the software instructions and downloaded the radio's info to a blank tab in the software, that I was then able to enter those frequencies that couldn't be entered before. 

So for those working on the software before your radio arrives, you might find your problems clearing up once you connect the radio and download its initial program into the software.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: starshippe on April 19, 2013, 12:41:56 PM

   thanks for the info.
   what are ur thoughts on the radio so far?

bill

Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: wuzafuzz on April 20, 2013, 01:30:55 PM
I never got mine to transmit standard FM on GMRS freqs.   Even after messing with the radio via keypad. Ham freqs are OK.  My guess is they built a table of frequency ranges requiring narrow FM, and forgot about certain services.  If there is a trick I haven't found it yet. Maybe I'll open a ticket with PowerWerx or Wouxon.

This is becoming common in land mobile radio; I'm hearing about newer Motorola radios that have to be hacked to do standard FM on amateur radio bands.

Here's a link to my earlier thoughts on the Wouxon.
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=17215.msg310228#msg310228 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=17215.msg310228#msg310228)
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: starshippe on April 20, 2013, 04:08:24 PM

   the radio's specifications list 406 as the lowest freq it will transmit on on that band.

bill
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: starshippe on April 24, 2013, 06:07:45 PM

   the brown truck completed its rounds yesterday.

avguy,
   i see what u mean about the radio doing one thing, and the software another. the software does not appear to allow wide band selection above 150 mhz, but the radio says it is in wide band on, for instance, the marine band.

   if anyone is considering purchasing one of these, pls note that u must also purchase a programming cable, as the radio comes with the keyboard locked. driver and software loading were uneventful.

   so far the radio has performed as advertised. i'm not sure what the $140 priced amazon radio is all about, but its listed as an "upgrade version," so it might not be the latest and greatest, if that worries u. i sprang for the $175 version. i wish i had also purchased another rubber ducky, as the one that comes with the unit is only about five inches long. theres an interesting dual band mag mount sma connected antenna that i'm looking at too.

   so, so far i am a happy camper.

bill

Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: PHall on April 25, 2013, 12:05:57 AM
Hey starshippe, is the shift key broken on your keyboard? Because I've never seen you use a capitol letter in any of your posts.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JeffDG on April 25, 2013, 12:22:20 AM
Quote from: PHall on April 25, 2013, 12:05:57 AM
Hey starshippe, is the shift key broken on your keyboard? Because I've never seen you use a capitol letter in any of your posts.
Really, they have special letters under the dome in DC?
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: PHall on April 25, 2013, 03:14:29 AM
Quote from: JeffDG on April 25, 2013, 12:22:20 AM
Quote from: PHall on April 25, 2013, 12:05:57 AM
Hey starshippe, is the shift key broken on your keyboard? Because I've never seen you use a capitol letter in any of your posts.
Really, they have special letters under the dome in DC?

Yeah, Beltway Speak! >:D
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: a2capt on April 30, 2013, 03:52:34 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 01, 2013, 04:25:08 PMNoooo!  This isn't possible!  You can't buy a compliant radio for less then $5000 and then it can only be programmed by Sherpas!
..and if you don't let the sherpas program it, you'll be attacked!
QuoteNepalese authorities say they're investigating reports that a fight broke out on Saturday between the guides and the climbers, nearly 23,000 feet (7,000 meters) up the world's tallest mountain.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/29/world/asia/nepal-mount-everest-fight/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/29/world/asia/nepal-mount-everest-fight/index.html) Even the radio may not work from there.

I thought of this thread when I saw the story.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: radioguy on May 05, 2013, 05:04:42 PM
For those of you who are not yet aware, there is a freeware software program that will work with this radio (and others).  It is called CHIRP and can be found at this site... http://chirp.danplanet.com/projects/chirp/wiki/Home (http://chirp.danplanet.com/projects/chirp/wiki/Home) 

I have no connection to this software, but I have used this application to program several radios, including Wouxun models, and it is vastly easier to use than many of the Chinese OEM applications.

John
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JoeTomasone on May 23, 2013, 06:04:01 AM
Just got mine, and it works quite well.  I've noticed the same issue with narrow-only channels as others here have.  Maybe they will get it fixed up with a firmware upgrade someday?  I'm not hopeful, as the software didn't seem to have an option to push firmware.

I used both the downloadable software and Chirp - which is much better - to program the radio.

Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: brent.teal on May 23, 2013, 05:25:06 PM
So if I pick one of these up I should not buy the RT systems software and cable, rather just the cable?
$50 vs $16 or so.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: starshippe on May 23, 2013, 07:54:29 PM

   i'm not sure just what bells and whistles the other software has, but i found the oshing software perfectly usable. u type in the freqs u want, u download them to the radio. thats about it. u can save them away as a project and download the same list into another radio, etc. or upload from one radio and download to another.
   personally i will not be making that many changes to the channel list. possibly, if u will be making numerous changes, u might benefit from a bell or whistle or two. perhaps someone can list the benefits of the other software.
   for prospective buyers, remember that u must get a programming cable and software of some sort in order to get freqs into the radio. 

bill
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: radioguy on June 12, 2013, 02:38:23 AM
Received my 6X about two weeks ago and created a full CAP template that appears to work just fine.  Noticed that the 6X seems to have a few more manners (menu-wise) than my earlier 3D model.  For example - I can change PL codes on the fly (not possible with the 3D) and I can ADD or DELETE a channel from the scan list using menu item 33 (also not possible with the 3D).  In addition, I was told today that my TX audio seemed to be a bit "hot", prompting me to back away from the built-in microphone.  This is not the case with the 3D.

Does anyone else have any similar comparisons?

John
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Brad on June 27, 2013, 07:51:04 PM
My 6X came yesterday and I'm greatly impressed with it. Using it for ham and CAP work. I also programmed mine using the KG-UV6X Commander software, which from what I read is highly recommended over the OEM software.

Available here as freeware: http://www.kc8unj.com/kguv6.html (http://www.kc8unj.com/kguv6.html)

Also picked up the Diamond high-gain antenna to complement the rubber-duck stubby.

The only thing I've noticed is that my FM radio memories, i.e. car stereo, won't save to the radio via the Commander software even if I program them into the sheet.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: johnnyb47 on July 16, 2013, 01:42:56 PM
So I picked up a UV3X to see what I could get it to do after I sent my UV6X off to live with a friend for a while (long story.... never got to attempt programming)
I can't read from the radio at all.
Various versions of the drivers and different software (UV-Commander, Chirp, etc) and on several different PC's. No joy.

Interestingly enough I can't get this OR any of my Baofeng UV5r/UV5r+ radios to program using windows 7.
I guess it's time to build back up a Windows XP machine to keep on hand.

Anyone having any luck with Windows 7? Or are you all using Windows XP or Linux to program?

thanks.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: SarDragon on July 16, 2013, 06:12:16 PM
I have Win 7 Home Premium on my laptop, and it worked fine. I have the RST software, and the USB cable.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: johnnyb47 on July 16, 2013, 06:34:46 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on July 16, 2013, 06:12:16 PM
I have Win 7 Home Premium on my laptop, and it worked fine. I have the RST software, and the USB cable.
That makes me feel a little better.
I had a cable but I never purchased the RST software.
I just bit the bullet and ordered a new cable and the software pack to see if it makes any difference.

thanks.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: SarDragon on July 16, 2013, 10:32:23 PM
I'm on a Yahoo! Group dealing with the radio, and there has been heated discussion on the various programming options.

KGUV6D-KGUV6X@yahoogroups.com
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Brad on July 17, 2013, 12:23:48 AM
Quote from: johnnyb47 on July 16, 2013, 01:42:56 PM
So I picked up a UV3X to see what I could get it to do after I sent my UV6X off to live with a friend for a while (long story.... never got to attempt programming)
I can't read from the radio at all.
Various versions of the drivers and different software (UV-Commander, Chirp, etc) and on several different PC's. No joy.

Interestingly enough I can't get this OR any of my Baofeng UV5r/UV5r+ radios to program using windows 7.
I guess it's time to build back up a Windows XP machine to keep on hand.

Anyone having any luck with Windows 7? Or are you all using Windows XP or Linux to program?

thanks.

I'm on Windows 7 64-bit and my system was a bit fussy at first, but I finally got it to work after a reboot. I'll export my drivers and send them to you if you want.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Brad on July 17, 2013, 03:01:55 PM
Quote from: Brad on July 17, 2013, 12:23:48 AM
Quote from: johnnyb47 on July 16, 2013, 01:42:56 PM
So I picked up a UV3X to see what I could get it to do after I sent my UV6X off to live with a friend for a while (long story.... never got to attempt programming)
I can't read from the radio at all.
Various versions of the drivers and different software (UV-Commander, Chirp, etc) and on several different PC's. No joy.

Interestingly enough I can't get this OR any of my Baofeng UV5r/UV5r+ radios to program using windows 7.
I guess it's time to build back up a Windows XP machine to keep on hand.

Anyone having any luck with Windows 7? Or are you all using Windows XP or Linux to program?

thanks.

I'm on Windows 7 64-bit and my system was a bit fussy at first, but I finally got it to work after a reboot. I'll export my drivers and send them to you if you want.

Clarification: I had issues with the USB programming cable. The software works fine, I use UV Commander. If the cable doesn't give any errors in your device manager it SHOULD work fine. I think I only had one issue with UV Commander itself, but after I unplugged the cable and plugged it back in to reinitialize everything between the driver and UV Commander it was fine.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: johnnyb47 on July 17, 2013, 07:55:18 PM
Quote from: Brad on July 17, 2013, 12:23:48 AM
Quote from: johnnyb47 on July 16, 2013, 01:42:56 PM
So I picked up a UV3X to see what I could get it to do after I sent my UV6X off to live with a friend for a while (long story.... never got to attempt programming)
I can't read from the radio at all.
Various versions of the drivers and different software (UV-Commander, Chirp, etc) and on several different PC's. No joy.

Interestingly enough I can't get this OR any of my Baofeng UV5r/UV5r+ radios to program using windows 7.
I guess it's time to build back up a Windows XP machine to keep on hand.

Anyone having any luck with Windows 7? Or are you all using Windows XP or Linux to program?

thanks.

I'm on Windows 7 64-bit and my system was a bit fussy at first, but I finally got it to work after a reboot. I'll export my drivers and send them to you if you want.
If you wouldn't mind. I'd like to compare the driver versions at least.
I'll PM you my email address.

thanks!
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: johnnyb47 on July 22, 2013, 07:43:12 PM
Just an update: I was able to program my UV3x without issue, the very first time I tried, with the RT Systems programming software and cable.
It's a higher quality looking cable than the one i received with the other radios I purchased ( i checked.. it was supposed to be compatible).
Interestingly enough I will only program using the RT systems software and the cable. The UV Commander software still won't even read from it using the new cable or old.

Regardless... under $200 for a capable CAP handheld radio.
I'm happy. :)
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JoeTomasone on August 01, 2013, 10:19:15 AM
FYI, I spoke with Powerwerx the other day regarding the inability to program wideband TX on those channels that require it (marine, state liaison freqs, etc).   Apparently, they have heard the concerns from many folks and have spoken to Wouxun about modifying the bandplan.  A future radio may have this modified bandplan.   However:

1. We don't know when and if.
2. There will be no trade-in program.
3. The radio is not firmware upgradable, so upgrading it is out.

However, they DID say that the audio is a bit hot on this radio, so if you TX on a wideband channel in NB and speak up a little, you might be OK.    We will be testing this out to see if it's a viable workaround.

Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Brad on August 01, 2013, 10:56:04 AM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on August 01, 2013, 10:19:15 AM
FYI, I spoke with Powerwerx the other day regarding the inability to program wideband TX on those channels that require it (marine, state liaison freqs, etc).   Apparently, they have heard the concerns from many folks and have spoken to Wouxun about modifying the bandplan.  A future radio may have this modified bandplan.   However:

1. We don't know when and if.
2. There will be no trade-in program.
3. The radio is not firmware upgradable, so upgrading it is out.

However, they DID say that the audio is a bit hot on this radio, so if you TX on a wideband channel in NB and speak up a little, you might be OK.    We will be testing this out to see if it's a viable workaround.

My UV6X programed narrowband and wideband perfectly fine. I have my CAP channels set narrowband and my USCG ch 16 and ham channels set wideband. No complaints.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JoeTomasone on August 02, 2013, 04:26:37 PM
Quote from: Brad on August 01, 2013, 10:56:04 AM
My UV6X programed narrowband and wideband perfectly fine. I have my CAP channels set narrowband and my USCG ch 16 and ham channels set wideband. No complaints.

Brad,

  I've used the KG-UV6X Commander, CHIRP, and the Wouxun software to program it, and while the SOFTWARE thinks it's programming narrowband (except for the Wouxun software which yells at you), the RADIO still sets the channel in wideband receive, narrowband transmit.   Even if you enter DEALER-CHANNEL mode and manually program a channel for wideband TX, the "N" still appears when you transmit, which is supposed to indicate narrowband transmit.

  Can you detail how you both programmed it and verified that it is actually transmitting in wideband?

 
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: wuzafuzz on August 03, 2013, 03:44:27 AM
I used my Wouxon frequently on GMRS.  The audio is inadequate.  If other users crank their volume to hear me then other transmitters blast their eardrums.  I finally went back to using my UHF HT-1250 for GMRS, but that doesn't solve the issue for VHF.  Fortunately I don't have much need for marine band in CO.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Brad on August 03, 2013, 08:47:15 AM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on August 02, 2013, 04:26:37 PM
Quote from: Brad on August 01, 2013, 10:56:04 AM
My UV6X programed narrowband and wideband perfectly fine. I have my CAP channels set narrowband and my USCG ch 16 and ham channels set wideband. No complaints.

Brad,

  I've used the KG-UV6X Commander, CHIRP, and the Wouxun software to program it, and while the SOFTWARE thinks it's programming narrowband (except for the Wouxun software which yells at you), the RADIO still sets the channel in wideband receive, narrowband transmit.   Even if you enter DEALER-CHANNEL mode and manually program a channel for wideband TX, the "N" still appears when you transmit, which is supposed to indicate narrowband transmit.

  Can you detail how you both programmed it and verified that it is actually transmitting in wideband?



I programmed mine using KG-UV6X Commander. The software sends Wide to RX and TX, and I just tested it by keying it. (Side note, held it too close to my Saitek X52 flight stick on accident and it shut it off and made my flight sim's autopilot go wonky when the stick re-engaged, heh)

TX and RX both indicating Wideband. Also note for some reason my menu option 12 is not the listed one in the manual (which is actually the KG-UV6D manual) of Power On Message (PONMSG), instead it's an option called "TX-WN" and I have it set to Wide.

For reference I ordered through Ham Radio Outlet instead of PowerWerx directly.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: radioguy on August 03, 2013, 01:32:37 PM
Brad -

My radio has the same issue as Joe's and most (all?) of the 6x's... it will program TX-WIDE *only* for ham frequencies. 

All frequencies other than amateur (including marine and GMRS) will indicate TX-WIDE in software - if set that way - but the radio itself apparently resets TX-WIDE to NARROW once the file is uploaded to the radio.  This setting can not be changed in radio menu #12.  This appears to be true regardless of which software is used (i.e. CHIRP, Commander, etc).

This is interesting.  If your radio truly allows TX-WIDE on a non-amateur frequency, I'd like to hear more about how you were able to do that.

John
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Brad on August 03, 2013, 07:39:46 PM
Quote from: radioguy on August 03, 2013, 01:32:37 PM
Brad -

My radio has the same issue as Joe's and most (all?) of the 6x's... it will program TX-WIDE *only* for ham frequencies. 

All frequencies other than amateur (including marine and GMRS) will indicate TX-WIDE in software - if set that way - but the radio itself apparently resets TX-WIDE to NARROW once the file is uploaded to the radio.  This setting can not be changed in radio menu #12.  This appears to be true regardless of which software is used (i.e. CHIRP, Commander, etc).

This is interesting.  If your radio truly allows TX-WIDE on a non-amateur frequency, I'd like to hear more about how you were able to do that.

John

I can adjust WN (option 8) and TX-WN (option 12) manually and make it save after putting the radio in dealer mode. (hold 8 when powering on then enter 268160) The radio shouldn't be making a difference between ham and non-ham frequencies, as the radio has one continuous TX and RX range, 136-174MHz, on the VHF side.

Edit: Ah ok, I was looking at a CAP channel. I just tried testing the TX on USCG ch 16 and it still transmits Narrowband even with TX-WN set to wide.

2nd Edit: Seems this is why: "The New lot of KGUV6D V2 radios post 2013 are locked to narrowband FM only in the commercial ranges per the new FCC narrowband laws. They will TX wideband in the amateur radio ranges only. You should be able to set HAM frequencies to wideband TX."

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KGUV6D-KGUV6X/message/1165 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KGUV6D-KGUV6X/message/1165)
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: wuzafuzz on August 04, 2013, 03:12:11 AM
Quote from: Brad on August 03, 2013, 07:39:46 PM

"The New lot of KGUV6D V2 radios post 2013 are locked to narrowband FM only in the commercial ranges per the new FCC narrowband laws. They will TX wideband in the amateur radio ranges only. You should be able to set HAM frequencies to wideband TX."

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KGUV6D-KGUV6X/message/1165 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KGUV6D-KGUV6X/message/1165)
Apparently they forgot that some bands were not covered by the narrowband mandates.  Ugh.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Brad on August 04, 2013, 03:24:58 AM
Quote from: wuzafuzz on August 04, 2013, 03:12:11 AM
Quote from: Brad on August 03, 2013, 07:39:46 PM

"The New lot of KGUV6D V2 radios post 2013 are locked to narrowband FM only in the commercial ranges per the new FCC narrowband laws. They will TX wideband in the amateur radio ranges only. You should be able to set HAM frequencies to wideband TX."

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KGUV6D-KGUV6X/message/1165 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KGUV6D-KGUV6X/message/1165)
Apparently they forgot that some bands were not covered by the narrowband mandates.  Ugh.

Meh, scream into the mic and hope the Coasties hear you, lol!
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: radioguy on August 04, 2013, 08:11:28 PM
Brad -

Thanks for following up on this issue... even though my hopes were dashed  :-(

Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: blackrain on August 08, 2013, 10:06:19 AM
So I may have missed it but has anyone tried this with the CAP radios and gotten a real life verdict?

On another note I saw reference to a wideband/narrowband programming issue with I believe a Vertex radio and as I understand it if they reset their computer clock to 2012 and supposedly it allowed the programming of formerly blocked wideband channels.

May be apples to oranges but I suppose it wouldn't hurt to try.

Now if I could just get an aviation headset adapter that was compatable I would  be in business (once I bought the radio) 8)
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Brad on August 08, 2013, 12:45:12 PM
Radio works fine with CAP, I use it to check into nets regularly. Just note it's an analog-only radio.

Also I highly recommend the high-gain antenna to go with it as opposed to the rubber duck stubby it comes with:

http://www.hamradio.com/detail.cfm?pid=H0-006297 (http://www.hamradio.com/detail.cfm?pid=H0-006297)
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: blackrain on August 10, 2013, 06:30:03 AM
Similar to the antenna I have on my Yaesu FT-60. FT-60 has been a good little radio but the Wouxun KG-UV6X with the CAP capability just makes sense. Won't take up much space in my flightbag either.

I looked on the Wouxun website itself and they make that radio in several versions (freq ranges) and I hope they'll set up the band plan to allow wideband on spectrum not affected by the narrowband mandate.

What's the difference between the Wouxun KG-UV6X and KG-UV6D V2? The bandplan?

Too bad the military can't get something that small as opposed to those AN/PRC 148 MBITR "bricks" in use now. Granted the MBITRs do a lot more and compatable with most goverment systems but heavy as handheld radios go.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: a2capt on August 10, 2013, 06:57:33 AM
(http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/7089/vsmt.png)
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Brad on August 10, 2013, 07:28:12 AM
Quote from: blackrain on August 10, 2013, 06:30:03 AMWhat's the difference between the Wouxun KG-UV6X and KG-UV6D V2? The bandplan?

Type-acceptance. The KG-UV6D specs list a +/- 5 kHz freq deviation, whereas the KG-UV6X has a +/- 2.5 kHz freq deviation. With the new narrowband mandate requiring 2.5 kHz bandwidth, if you were over 2.5 kHz deviated, you'd be getting considerable signal loss on the 6D, perhaps even no signal at all, whereas the 6X ensures that any frequency deviation will still be within the bounds of the signal, so you'll still get SOMETHING.

Looks like with the 6D all they did was put narrowband bandwith control on a wideband radio. That why the 6X is listed for CAP use and the 6D isn't. Surprised the 6D even earned the part 90 listing, but I suppose that was before the FCC got done finalizing the narrowband things on their side of the house.

Of course, as I sit here flipping back and forth between the 6X manual in hand and the 6D manual online....which PowerWerx links to as the "6X manual" on their website even though it's a scan of the 6D one...I notice the Declaration of Conformity are dated the same on both. Either it's an Ancient Chinese Secret on the real answer, or they realized their mistake after they released it and released the 6X to fix the problem.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: blackrain on August 22, 2013, 05:20:01 AM
Quote from: Brad on August 08, 2013, 12:45:12 PM
Radio works fine with CAP, I use it to check into nets regularly. Just note it's an analog-only radio.

http://www.hamradio.com/detail.cfm?pid=H0-006297 (http://www.hamradio.com/detail.cfm?pid=H0-006297)

Been  a while since I took BCUT but what callsign is used? Do you have an individual call sign assigned?
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: SarDragon on August 22, 2013, 08:25:27 AM
Quote from: blackrain on August 22, 2013, 05:20:01 AM
Quote from: Brad on August 08, 2013, 12:45:12 PM
Radio works fine with CAP, I use it to check into nets regularly. Just note it's an analog-only radio.

http://www.hamradio.com/detail.cfm?pid=H0-006297 (http://www.hamradio.com/detail.cfm?pid=H0-006297)

Been  a while since I took BCUT but what callsign is used? Do you have an individual call sign assigned?

Call sign used for what? Your Q is unclear.

They are assigned to individuals, units, vehicles, and aircraft. In my wing, you need to have a radio to get a call sign.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JeffDG on August 22, 2013, 12:06:32 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on August 22, 2013, 08:25:27 AM
Quote from: blackrain on August 22, 2013, 05:20:01 AM
Quote from: Brad on August 08, 2013, 12:45:12 PM
Radio works fine with CAP, I use it to check into nets regularly. Just note it's an analog-only radio.

http://www.hamradio.com/detail.cfm?pid=H0-006297 (http://www.hamradio.com/detail.cfm?pid=H0-006297)

Been  a while since I took BCUT but what callsign is used? Do you have an individual call sign assigned?

Call sign used for what? Your Q is unclear.

They are assigned to individuals, units, vehicles, and aircraft. In my wing, you need to have a radio to get a call sign.
That depends on the situation.  I don't have a radio, but I have a call-sign.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: blackrain on August 22, 2013, 01:18:02 PM
Our vehicles have them (air and ground) but I can't recall which individuals have their own. Guess I should ask the comms officer.... :)
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: radioguy on August 24, 2013, 01:20:43 PM
Quote from: blackrain on August 08, 2013, 10:06:19 AM

On another note I saw reference to a wideband/narrowband programming issue with I believe a Vertex radio and as I understand it if they reset their computer clock to 2012 and supposedly it allowed the programming of formerly blocked wideband channels.

May be apples to oranges but I suppose it wouldn't hurt to try.



I haven't actually tried to change the pc clock, but my impression is that the bandwidth limitation is in the radio itself - not the software.  When I try to change the bandwidth setting in the menu manually, the radio will not honor the change.

John
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: blackrain on September 03, 2013, 09:53:16 AM
Well I just broke down and ordered one (and the USB cable). Is there a consensus on the best available software for programming? I noticed some sites are advertising a programming/software kit for 49.99 though I assume all I'll need is already available free for download?

Thanks
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: wuzafuzz on September 03, 2013, 10:42:24 AM
Blackrain, since you already have a cable you can simply download software for free. 
http://www.powerwerx.com/wouxun/usb.html (http://www.powerwerx.com/wouxun/usb.html)

The free software will do the job, but is weird to use.  It will work with the cable you already have.  If you are likely to program the radio one time, the free software will be adequate.

Another option is the software and cable from RT Systems.
http://www.rtsystemsinc.com/KG-UV6-Programming-Software-and-USB-cable-p/rps-kguv6-usb.htm (http://www.rtsystemsinc.com/KG-UV6-Programming-Software-and-USB-cable-p/rps-kguv6-usb.htm)

I had RT Systems software for a few other ham radios, including a Wouxon UV-3D.  The RT Systems software and cable were vastly superior to the options from PowerWerx.  If you will continually change programming you will find RT Systems preferable.  Their product includes their own cable. I'm not sure if a PowerWerx cable will work with their software.

An added benefit to the RT software is integration with amateur radio directories and simple import/export options from other RT Systems products. Those features are quite nice if you use amateur radio in addition to CAP.

Do you have others nearby who can share code plugs with you?  Or already have a radio programmed up?  If yes, you can read their radio with either program them customize to suit your needs.  If you simply want to use their code plug files, get the same software they have. 

Of course we cannot share code plugs here.  Your communications officer or director may have some they can share.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: blackrain on September 03, 2013, 12:22:16 PM
Quote from: wuzafuzz on September 03, 2013, 10:42:24 AM
Blackrain, since you already have a cable you can simply download software for free. 
http://www.powerwerx.com/wouxun/usb.html (http://www.powerwerx.com/wouxun/usb.html)

The free software will do the job, but is weird to use.  It will work with the cable you already have.  If you are likely to program the radio one time, the free software will be adequate.

Another option is the software and cable from RT Systems.
http://www.rtsystemsinc.com/KG-UV6-Programming-Software-and-USB-cable-p/rps-kguv6-usb.htm (http://www.rtsystemsinc.com/KG-UV6-Programming-Software-and-USB-cable-p/rps-kguv6-usb.htm)

I had RT Systems software for a few other ham radios, including a Wouxon UV-3D.  The RT Systems software and cable were vastly superior to the options from PowerWerx.  If you will continually change programming you will find RT Systems preferable.  Their product includes their own cable. I'm not sure if a PowerWerx cable will work with their software.

An added benefit to the RT software is integration with amateur radio directories and simple import/export options from other RT Systems products. Those features are quite nice if you use amateur radio in addition to CAP.

Do you have others nearby who can share code plugs with you?  Or already have a radio programmed up?  If yes, you can read their radio with either program them customize to suit your needs.  If you simply want to use their code plug files, get the same software they have. 

Of course we cannot share code plugs here.  Your communications officer or director may have some they can share.

Thanks for the input....I haven't actually laid hands on the radio yet but should before too long..I may end up dropping the 50 bucks for the RT as I will need amateur frequencies and the Wouxun will likely be used in place of my FT-60. Living in tornado alley means the Skywarn net amateur frequencies get programmed and the recent Moore OK tornado saw the Oklahoma wing called out to assist so one radio that covers both of those realms is a big plus.

On another note I found a NTIA paper from 1997 on a study conducted on the compatability of Wideband Marine Radios and Narrow Band Marine Radios if in fact Narrow Band became reality and they needed to communicate with one another. As I've said I'm not an electrical engineer and haven't stayed at a Holiday Inn Express in a long time but the study said they should be interoperable even with some degradation, though the design of the IF filter in a particular radio was a key player in  their compatability

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/legacy/osmhome/reports/tr97343/tr97343.html (http://www.ntia.doc.gov/legacy/osmhome/reports/tr97343/tr97343.html)

I'll be interested in what others much smarter than I happen to think.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JoeTomasone on September 03, 2013, 04:12:06 PM
Chirp (http://chirp.danplanet.com/projects/chirp/wiki/Home (http://chirp.danplanet.com/projects/chirp/wiki/Home)) and KG-UV6 Commander (http://www.kc8unj.com/kguv6.html (http://www.kc8unj.com/kguv6.html)) are excellent and free.  No need to spend money on RT.  Chirp also works with and can convert from other radios as well, making it easy to migrate frequencies on one radio to another.   I used it to move ham frequencies from my ham HT to the Wouxun.

Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: blackrain on September 03, 2013, 06:53:55 PM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on September 03, 2013, 04:12:06 PM
Chirp (http://chirp.danplanet.com/projects/chirp/wiki/Home (http://chirp.danplanet.com/projects/chirp/wiki/Home)) and KG-UV6 Commander (http://www.kc8unj.com/kguv6.html (http://www.kc8unj.com/kguv6.html)) are excellent and free.  No need to spend money on RT.  Chirp also works with and can convert from other radios as well, making it easy to migrate frequencies on one radio to another.   I used it to move ham frequencies from my ham HT to the Wouxun.

Will the USB cable I have from Powerwerx work with Chirp?
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: brent.teal on January 01, 2014, 06:37:44 PM
Quote from: blackrain on September 03, 2013, 06:53:55 PM
Will the USB cable I have from Powerwerx work with Chirp?

yes, mine did. 

On another note, there is a new notation on the compatibility list for the Wouxon.

WARNING - A lab report was submitted stating that this model met NTIA receiver requirements, but we have received information that suggests it may not actually meet all of these specifications.

So unless you are a ham, I would not buy one just yet since they could yank the radio from the list. 
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: wuzafuzz on January 02, 2014, 10:36:31 AM
It would be truly unfortunate if they pull KG-UV6D authorization due to receiver specs.  I use one routinely and have never experienced objectionable interference that wasn't also a problem on compliant Motorola and EFJ radios. 

As long as I'm not transmitting where I shouldn't it would be swell if the regulators would chill out. Members don't have a bottomless pit of other people's money to spend on radios.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Brad on January 02, 2014, 12:44:22 PM
Quote from: wuzafuzz on January 02, 2014, 10:36:31 AM
It would be truly unfortunate if they pull KG-UV6D authorization due to receiver specs.  I use one routinely and have never experienced objectionable interference that wasn't also a problem on compliant Motorola and EFJ radios. 

As long as I'm not transmitting where I shouldn't it would be swell if the regulators would chill out. Members don't have a bottomless pit of other people's money to spend on radios.

Eric did you happen to see the email exchange on cap-comm about the debate for compliance requirements on the RX side? It's....interesting...to say the least.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JoeTomasone on January 02, 2014, 04:58:28 PM
Quote from: wuzafuzz on January 02, 2014, 10:36:31 AM
It would be truly unfortunate if they pull KG-UV6X authorization due to receiver specs.

FTFY.  :)


A unit a few percentage points off in the RX side shouldn't be cause for NTC to reject a member-owned radio, IMHO.  It's the owner's problem and doesn't affect anyone else.

However, that being said, I can make a great case as to how current regulations permit us to use any NB-capable radio anyway, except in cases of interference.   No one at higher HQ seems to be interested in my barracks lawyer skills, however.

Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: brent.teal on January 02, 2014, 09:49:47 PM
Anything yall can share from that email exchange?
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Brad on January 02, 2014, 10:50:18 PM
Quote from: brent.teal on January 02, 2014, 09:49:47 PM
Anything yall can share from that email exchange?

I'll have to find it and look through it.

Edit: found it, nothing appears FOUO / Comms only, what's your email?
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: brent.teal on January 03, 2014, 02:09:01 AM
pm sent
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Panache on January 03, 2014, 02:14:45 AM
Anybody know if this unit works with P25?
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: arajca on January 03, 2014, 02:30:54 AM
It does not.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Panache on January 03, 2014, 02:41:16 AM
Well, darn.  But I guess that's what to be expected with an inexpensive radio like that.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: a2capt on January 03, 2014, 03:26:34 AM
Kinda curious myself.. :)
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: wuzafuzz on January 04, 2014, 12:58:24 PM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on January 02, 2014, 04:58:28 PM
Quote from: wuzafuzz on January 02, 2014, 10:36:31 AM
It would be truly unfortunate if they pull KG-UV6X authorization due to receiver specs.

FTFY.  :)


A unit a few percentage points off in the RX side shouldn't be cause for NTC to reject a member-owned radio, IMHO.  It's the owner's problem and doesn't affect anyone else.

However, that being said, I can make a great case as to how current regulations permit us to use any NB-capable radio anyway, except in cases of interference.   No one at higher HQ seems to be interested in my barracks lawyer skills, however.

Oops, good catch on the model number.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: wuzafuzz on January 04, 2014, 01:04:25 PM
Quote from: Brad on January 02, 2014, 12:44:22 PM
Quote from: wuzafuzz on January 02, 2014, 10:36:31 AM
It would be truly unfortunate if they pull KG-UV6D authorization due to receiver specs.  I use one routinely and have never experienced objectionable interference that wasn't also a problem on compliant Motorola and EFJ radios. 

As long as I'm not transmitting where I shouldn't it would be swell if the regulators would chill out. Members don't have a bottomless pit of other people's money to spend on radios.

Eric did you happen to see the email exchange on cap-comm about the debate for compliance requirements on the RX side? It's....interesting...to say the least.

I sure did.  It was an interesting discussion. 
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: brent.teal on February 05, 2014, 09:29:37 PM
We've got two operators using it in our squadron and a third on the way.  Including me.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Larry Mangum on February 06, 2014, 03:50:55 PM
There has been a lot of debate on these radios, but the gist is that a very knowledgeable CAP COMM guy, decided to perform a check to see if the radio actually meet spec's. He decided it did not. Now while I have a very high opinion of this individual, having been involved in the business of providing communication equipment to the military and knowing the type of equipment and RF isolation tanks it takes to do an accurate test, I question the results.  CAP COMM, has also decided that it cannot afford to spend the money to have the radio tested by a lab. So unless they are willing to spend the money and are willing to do the same for all the radios's they have approved based upon manufacturers supplied certifications, they really need to allow the radio. Or for that matter disapprove it and be done with it.

To do any less is performing a disservice to the members.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: a2capt on February 06, 2014, 04:00:58 PM
Sounds like sour grapes in that a radio priced to be attainable by many could mean someone can no longer push their weight around, or perhaps it causes more work for someone, so lets put a stop to it.

Yes, it is what it is. How many units did they test, what are the conditions, are all radios tested the same way, and the manufactures word taken for each one?

It's all about consistency. Test everything the same way. The whole way.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: ReCAP on February 06, 2014, 07:44:24 PM
Quote from: a2capt on February 06, 2014, 04:00:58 PM
Sounds like sour grapes in that a radio priced to be attainable by many could mean someone can no longer push their weight around, or perhaps it causes more work for someone, so lets put a stop to it.
Oh, they won't stop there.  My repeated requests for the FOUO frequency info have been ignored by the DC.  The CAPR says if I have a legitimate need to know they should give it to me.  I'm a squadron comm officer and I have a radio to program, don't I need to know?  Or should I just resort to relying on what I find on the internet? 
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: a2capt on February 06, 2014, 08:10:35 PM
Thank goodness we don't seem to have that much of a problem here.
/me says as he looks at the binder sitting on the desk.

More progress blocking, job-security guarantee type mentality. "If they have to use my radios, and only I can program them, then they -need- me."

So much for moving the mission forward.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: arajca on February 06, 2014, 08:13:14 PM
Quote from: ReCAP on February 06, 2014, 07:44:24 PM
Quote from: a2capt on February 06, 2014, 04:00:58 PM
Sounds like sour grapes in that a radio priced to be attainable by many could mean someone can no longer push their weight around, or perhaps it causes more work for someone, so lets put a stop to it.
Oh, they won't stop there.  My repeated requests for the FOUO frequency info have been ignored by the DC.  The CAPR says if I have a legitimate need to know they should give it to me.  I'm a squadron comm officer and I have a radio to program, don't I need to know?  Or should I just resort to relying on what I find on the internet?
Do you have the software and cables or are you going to have some else program it? There is a difference.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: ReCAP on February 06, 2014, 08:32:06 PM
I was going to program it myself - it's easy enough.  I'm aware of what the reg says about disclosing the info to a third party and wasn't asking fo that. 

He did eventually say that I should bring the radio the wing HQ (4 hour round trip) and they would "assist" me with the programming.  Considering they didn't know this radio existed until I told them, I fail to see what assistance they will be able to offer.  At that point I pretty much gave up for now.  Do they think they are going to somehow secretly put the frequencies into my radio and I won't be able to read the info back out of it the moment they hand it back to me? 

The regs are clear, you don't need to know the freqs to operate a radio, but you should be given them if you have a *reasonable* need to know.  I'm very reasonable. 
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Eclipse on February 06, 2014, 08:52:13 PM
The radio needs to be certified licensed for use on CAP frequencies.

Programming the channels isn't enough, so whether you have that info or not, it's going to have to be blessed
by a Wing Licensing officer at some point, regardless.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: ReCAP on February 06, 2014, 09:15:15 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 06, 2014, 08:52:13 PM
The radio needs to be certified licensed for use on CAP frequencies.

Programming the channels isn't enough, so whether you have that info or not, it's going to have to be blessed
by a Wing Licensing officer at some point, regardless.

It's the very radio we're discussing in this thread, and so far, it still appears on the compliant list here:
https://comm.capnhq.gov/equipment/vhf_summary.cfm

From CAPR100-1 6-1:
b. Radio equipment used by CAP on federal frequencies must comply with all standards of the NTIA. Determination of compliance is based on the specifications of the radio published by the manufacturer. CAP maintains a list of radio equipment evaluated as compliant. This list can be found via eServices.

Doesn't say anything about a "Wing Licensing officer".  Ours is out on a snipe hunt right now anyway. 
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Eclipse on February 06, 2014, 09:19:21 PM
Your individual radio will need to be certified and licensed.  It's not enough to just buy one on the list.

The list just says that it should be compliant, that doesn't mean it actually is, and it can't be used for
CAP until that has been ascertained by someone the wing has appointed to do so.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: ReCAP on February 06, 2014, 09:49:21 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 06, 2014, 09:19:21 PM
Your individual radio will need to be certified and licensed.  It's not enough to just buy one on the list.
The list just says that it should be compliant, that doesn't mean it actually is, and it can't be used for
CAP until that has been ascertained by someone the wing has appointed to do so.
Ok. 
Where in the regs can I read about that? 
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: ReCAP on February 06, 2014, 09:58:58 PM
P.S.

Quote from: Eclipse on February 06, 2014, 09:19:21 PM
The list just says that it should be compliant, that doesn't mean it actually is,

No, the reg says
"Determination of compliance is based on the specifications of the radio published by the manufacturer. "
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Eclipse on February 06, 2014, 10:13:26 PM
Have you completed ICUT?  Most of these questions are handled during those sessions.

Each wing does their licensing and radio certification a bit differently.

CAPR 100-1 Page 17:
5-3. Authorization. Authorization of stations consists of assigning a CAP tactical call sign to a
CAP member, vehicle, facility or specific radio. Members who have completed ICUT training
may apply for a CAP tactical call sign using procedures specified by the wing
. Wing policy may
require assignment or availability of a radio in order to be eligible for a tactical call sign, but will
not require further training or a standard higher than ICUT accomplishment.

Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: ReCAP on February 06, 2014, 10:24:11 PM
Curiouser and curiouser.  What you're saying is that there is apparently no written policy? 

I do have in my hand a wing document that assigns blocks of call signs plus administrative call signs to each group and squadron. 

I've completed ICUT.  Neither the online training or the tasks evaluated and signed off by the in-person evaluator addressed this issue. 

I get the idea that my wing doesn't actually use radio communication.  In fact, the evaluator mentioned that in order so satisfy the Comm Technician rating requirement to participate in a Wing communication exercise, he had to organize and run his own exercise.  Great way to jump in an learn the ropes, at least. 

I was also told we have a grand total three (3) portable radios in the entire wing. We have no available HF radios... 

Sorry, didn't mean to turn this into a gripe session.   

Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Eclipse on February 06, 2014, 10:44:13 PM
Quote from: ReCAP on February 06, 2014, 10:24:11 PM
Curiouser and curiouser.  What you're saying is that there is apparently no written policy?
No, what I'm saying is that every wing is different, and based generally on the needs and scope of the
networks in a given wing.  My wing has gobs of radios, and used to suffer from the same funnel of
only a couple certification people.   We fixed that a number of years ago and it's been a non-issue since.

The Wing DC is the person responsible for this and he's the one you need to discuss this with.
There's no end-around or shortcut.  At some point he's going to have to authorize any equipment
you intend to use on CAP freqs, whatever the wing's procedure may be.

Quote from: ReCAP on February 06, 2014, 10:24:11 PM
I do have in my hand a wing document that assigns blocks of call signs plus administrative call signs to each group and squadron.
Depending on what you are looking at, that may be a generic assignment table by function (i.e. the Wing CC is XXX01, VC XXX02, etc),
but regardless, that's not a menu, the call sign still has to be assigned to you. Some wings license stations, some wings license radios.
You have to ascertain how your wing handles it.

Quote from: ReCAP on February 06, 2014, 10:24:11 PM
I get the idea that my wing doesn't actually use radio communication.  In fact, the evaluator mentioned that in order so satisfy the Comm Technician rating requirement to participate in a Wing communication exercise, he had to organize and run his own exercise.
This is typical.  CAP radios aren't used to pass general message traffic or CAP news anymore.  They re used primarily for ES and larger-scale activities
like encampments and airshows, etc.  Those activities may not meet the goals of a comm exercises for the purpose of the tech rating, but regardless,
if he's the Wing DC, then he's the one who's supposed to be scheduling Comm exercises.

Other then that, what you have are nightly nets that echo "no traffic, over".

Quote from: ReCAP on February 06, 2014, 10:24:11 PM
I was also told we have a grand total three (3) portable radios in the entire wing. We have no available HF radios... 
Possible if its a small wing and there's not much ES activity.  HTs are primarily assigned to ground teams via the TOA,
and if your wing doesn't have many, or doesn't have many interested in a radio, then they may not have much.

What was your expectation of use?
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: a2capt on February 07, 2014, 04:15:38 AM
When I get another radio, one that is on that list, I don't have to apply to CAWG to use it. I already have a call sign, I'm using approve equipment, properly programmed. Done.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: SarDragon on February 07, 2014, 04:51:00 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 06, 2014, 10:44:13 PM
Possible if its a small wing and there's not much ES activity.  HTs are primarily assigned to ground teams via the TOA,
and if your wing doesn't have many, or doesn't have many interested in a radio, then they may not have much.

New jersey is not a small wing, in terms of members and assets.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JoeTomasone on February 07, 2014, 01:48:08 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 06, 2014, 09:19:21 PM
Your individual radio will need to be certified and licensed.  It's not enough to just buy one on the list.

The list just says that it should be compliant, that doesn't mean it actually is, and it can't be used for
CAP until that has been ascertained by someone the wing has appointed to do so.

Compliance is determined by presence on the NTCs list.  Trust me when I tell you that no DC has the time, equipment, and, in many cases, expertise to test equipment for NTIA compliance.  That requires a full-on lab.

Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JoeTomasone on February 07, 2014, 02:18:57 PM
There were no lab tests conducted by CAP on the Wouxun.   There is suspicion that the receiver test figures were fudged based on observations by some members that the receiver wasn't showing the proper amount of rejection that it should be; and that if that figure cannot be trusted, can the rest of it be?

I have found two lab reports - admittedly both from China - that certify the radio as meeting Part 90 standards; but to the best I can determine, Part 90 does not address RECEIVE specs, just transmit. 

I did a rather unscientific test here.  I set up the Wouxun and an EFJ portable next to each other and tuned to CC1.   I then used another transmitter to transmit on the center frequency of CC1 and then deviated 5kc off.  The EFJ did not respond.   The Wouxun received the signal 10kc off center in both directions.   That would seem to lend credence to the argument that it's adjacent channel selectivity is not what it should be, but then the specs for the EFJ are 15db higher than the Wouxun.   I'm not qualified to make any sort of determination as to whether a 15db difference should lead to a 10kc greater rejection - but as far as I am concerned, it doesn't matter much.    I can deal with the ramifications of the miniscule chance that the few times a year that this radio will be pressed into service that there won't be too many people transmitting 5-10kc off and nearby enough to overload the receiver.



Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: ReCAP on February 07, 2014, 03:12:40 PM
Sorry for going off topic - I'll table my gripes for now because Joe brings up some interesting points. 

I think everyone agrees that the transmit specs are critical. 

There are two schools of though on the recieve performance:
1. It's better than nothing - I can't recieve anything at all with a $1500 radio I didn't buy. 
2. Substandard is worse than nothing because I will fail when I really need it. 

So, I wouldn't advocate CAP replacing the EFJ's with Wouxuns, but if I'm buying a HT for HAM use and it also might be usable for CAP, why put up road blocks?   
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Eclipse on February 07, 2014, 03:35:34 PM
Quote from: ReCAP on February 07, 2014, 03:12:40 PM
So, I wouldn't advocate CAP replacing the EFJ's with Wouxuns, but if I'm buying a HT for HAM use and it also might be usable for CAP, why put up road blocks?

Because CAP isn't concerned with "ham use", it is only concerned with CAP use, and there are plenty of alternatives for
members who need radios that cost far less then $1500.

Not to mention the fact that in many cases, if you haven't been issued a radio, either permanently or day-of, you probably don't need one.

It's pretty easy to find HT-1000's these days for $100ish.  That's all the average CAP member needs for CAP use.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: a2capt on February 07, 2014, 03:52:31 PM
..and if the radio is receiving a little extra, is that ultimately going to hamper the mission?

If, after all- the Part 90 test covers only transmit.

The longer it's on the list, the harder it's going to be to remove it, without a significant amount of white noise from the field.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JoeTomasone on February 07, 2014, 08:20:34 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 07, 2014, 03:35:34 PM

Not to mention the fact that in many cases, if you haven't been issued a radio, either permanently or day-of, you probably don't need one.

It's pretty easy to find HT-1000's these days for $100ish.  That's all the average CAP member needs for CAP use.


..But you DO need the operating time - even if it's just during local VHF nets - to keep those prowords and procedures from leaking out your ears..

HT-1000's may be obtainable, but there are several advantages to going with a Wouxun instead:

1. It's new, with a warranty versus "pay and pray from eBay".
2. Accessories are available, cheap (and compared to Moto/EFJ - dirt cheap!), and new.
3. Field programmable with free software and a $17 cable versus having to hunt down someone who can program Moto with $$$ stuff.
4. Can be charged and run off of 12vdc.   I've never tried to charge an EFJ off of 12Vdc (since the charger requires 15Vdc and at $4000 I won't be gambling, thanks).   
5. Dual receive - monitor Guard (like you're supposed to) and the repeater (or CC1, etc) simultaneously.
6. Keypad and VFO.   If Agency X comes up and says that they are on frequency xxx.xxxx and we can monitor them there, I can - while monitoring CAP frequencies (see "dual receive" above)
7. Display.  Counts for a lot.
8. Lots more channels.  My Wouxun has all FLWG repeaters, all R-channels, mutual aid/liaison, marine, ISR, and lots of other CAP-related frequencies, plus the local ham repeaters.   HT-1000s can't even carry the full FLWG repeater load.

Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: a2capt on February 07, 2014, 08:50:38 PM
9. It's Cheap, you said.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JeffDG on February 07, 2014, 08:55:48 PM
I still haven't seen any reference to a regulation that requires the Wing DC or a designee to approve a particular radio.

Yes, Wing DCs assign, or cause to be assigned (I left it to Group Comm Officers for the most part when I was a DC), individual or unit AFVCS Call Signs, but these go to people or organizations, not individual radio units.

If your squadron has a call sign, you can use that (with the concurrence of the Squadron Commander of course).  Or you can request an individual call sign to use.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JoeTomasone on February 07, 2014, 09:05:07 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on February 07, 2014, 08:55:48 PM
I still haven't seen any reference to a regulation that requires the Wing DC or a designee to approve a particular radio.

There isn't one.   I don't approve radios, and my Licensing Officer just verifies that the radio is on the list.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Eclipse on February 07, 2014, 09:18:01 PM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on February 07, 2014, 08:20:34 PM
..But you DO need the operating time - even if it's just during local VHF nets - to keep those prowords and procedures from leaking out your ears..

If you are active in using the radios in actual activities, you will get the reps you need, if you aren't, you won't need the reps.
"No traffic, over" will not prepare you to use a radio.  And if reps are what is needed, you can practice without having an actual radio.

Quote from: JoeTomasone on February 07, 2014, 08:20:34 PM
1. It's new, with a warranty versus "pay and pray from eBay".
2. Accessories are available, cheap (and compared to Moto/EFJ - dirt cheap!), and new.
3. Field programmable with free software and a $17 cable versus having to hunt down someone who can program Moto with $$$ stuff.
4. Can be charged and run off of 12vdc.   I've never tried to charge an EFJ off of 12Vdc (since the charger requires 15Vdc and at $4000 I won't be gambling, thanks).   
5. Dual receive - monitor Guard (like you're supposed to) and the repeater (or CC1, etc) simultaneously.
6. Keypad and VFO.   If Agency X comes up and says that they are on frequency xxx.xxxx and we can monitor them there, I can - while monitoring CAP frequencies (see "dual receive" above)
7. Display.  Counts for a lot.
8. Lots more channels.  My Wouxun has all FLWG repeaters, all R-channels, mutual aid/liaison, marine, ISR, and lots of other CAP-related frequencies, plus the local ham repeaters.   HT-1000s can't even carry the full FLWG repeater load.

All this is very nice, much of it irrelevant to normal CAP operations.

I've never had any issue with eBay, have found plenty of inexpensive and good quality accessories for the EFJs online,
but my main point in this case was that perfectly serviceable radios can be obtained for CAP use under $100 without trying too hard.

The other point was that if you aren't involved in ES or a few larger-scale activities, then there' not much point to having a CAP radio,
especially if you have to buy it yourself.  The average member has no use for mutual aid / liaison, or especially ham frequencies.
No agency s coming up to a random member and asking them to use their freqs, nor should we be doing that.

Quote from: JoeTomasone on February 07, 2014, 09:05:07 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on February 07, 2014, 08:55:48 PM
I still haven't seen any reference to a regulation that requires the Wing DC or a designee to approve a particular radio.

There isn't one.   I don't approve radios, and my Licensing Officer just verifies that the radio is on the list.

There's nothing in the base regs, but as is indicated there, it's up to the local wing.  Some don't care, others literally
certify every radio on a bench.  The important thing is that you have to do whatever your wing DC says.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JoeTomasone on February 07, 2014, 10:08:07 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 07, 2014, 09:18:01 PM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on February 07, 2014, 08:20:34 PM
..But you DO need the operating time - even if it's just during local VHF nets - to keep those prowords and procedures from leaking out your ears..

If you are active in using the radios in actual activities, you will get the reps you need, if you aren't, you won't need the reps.
"No traffic, over" will not prepare you to use a radio.  And if reps are what is needed, you can practice without having an actual radio.

OK, you take ICUT, get your MRO, and 18 months passes without anything going on that requires you to use a radio.

Now there's a mission.   You are the MRO.   You don't recall the difference between "wilco" and "roger".   How effective will you be?

Yes, you could tabletop this, but it doesn't stick between the ears as well IMHO.

Quote from: Eclipse on February 07, 2014, 09:18:01 PM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on February 07, 2014, 08:20:34 PM
1. It's new, with a warranty versus "pay and pray from eBay".
2. Accessories are available, cheap (and compared to Moto/EFJ - dirt cheap!), and new.
3. Field programmable with free software and a $17 cable versus having to hunt down someone who can program Moto with $$$ stuff.
4. Can be charged and run off of 12vdc.   I've never tried to charge an EFJ off of 12Vdc (since the charger requires 15Vdc and at $4000 I won't be gambling, thanks).   
5. Dual receive - monitor Guard (like you're supposed to) and the repeater (or CC1, etc) simultaneously.
6. Keypad and VFO.   If Agency X comes up and says that they are on frequency xxx.xxxx and we can monitor them there, I can - while monitoring CAP frequencies (see "dual receive" above)
7. Display.  Counts for a lot.
8. Lots more channels.  My Wouxun has all FLWG repeaters, all R-channels, mutual aid/liaison, marine, ISR, and lots of other CAP-related frequencies, plus the local ham repeaters.   HT-1000s can't even carry the full FLWG repeater load.

All this is very nice, much of it irrelevant to normal CAP operations.

NORMAL operations, perhaps.   When most of my members get cranked up and head out, it won't be normal.   I tend to think of widespread power outages after a hurricane, with perhaps the local sheriff telling us that they are on frequency x.xxx in case we care to monitor them.  (Note I didn't say "transmit", but if we had an urgent need and the NOC approved it, you're dead in the water with an EFJ unless you have programming gear with you.. And you won't.).   

Of course, cheaper accessories means better options for normal operations as well.   $30 spare batteries, the ability to monitor NOAA Weather Radio, and not having to remember which unmarked channel is the repeater two counties over means a lot to me in normal operations.


Quote from: Eclipse on February 07, 2014, 09:18:01 PM
I've never had any issue with eBay, have found plenty of inexpensive and good quality accessories for the EFJs online,
but my main point in this case was that perfectly serviceable radios can be obtained for CAP use under $100 without trying too hard.

Perhaps, but you must admit that it's a crapshoot, basically.   


Quote from: Eclipse on February 07, 2014, 09:18:01 PM
The other point was that if you aren't involved in ES or a few larger-scale activities, then there' not much point to having a CAP radio,
especially if you have to buy it yourself.  The average member has no use for mutual aid / liaison, or especially ham frequencies.
No agency s coming up to a random member and asking them to use their freqs, nor should we be doing that.

Sure there is - you want to check in to nets to satisfy the requirements for the Tech Comm rating.   You want to communicate at any event - small or large.   

We have several non-CAP frequencies in our radios to support local USAF and State missions.   Who's to say that you won't be involved with them? 

You'd want ham frequencies if you're a ham.  Why have multiple radios, one for CAP use and one for HAM use?   I can tell you right now that an HT-1000 won't cut it for ham use if you do much more than check in to the local repeater.   You'll need to be frequency-agile.

No, an agency won't come up to a random member, but they might approach the CUL. 



Quote from: JoeTomasone on February 07, 2014, 09:05:07 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on February 07, 2014, 08:55:48 PM
I still haven't seen any reference to a regulation that requires the Wing DC or a designee to approve a particular radio.

There isn't one.   I don't approve radios, and my Licensing Officer just verifies that the radio is on the list.

There's nothing in the base regs, but as is indicated there, it's up to the local wing.  Some don't care, others literally
certify every radio on a bench.  The important thing is that you have to do whatever your wing DC says.
[/quote]

I see nothing indicating that the DC is even responsible for assuring compliance.  It's the member's responsibility.   As for issuing a callsign:

Quote from: CAPR 100-1
6-3. User and Radio Authorization. Completion of ICUT, as recorded in eServices, constitutes authorization for unsupervised operation on CAP frequencies. Wings, regions and National Headquarters may use discretion in assigning call signs to members, vehicles or physical locations that do not have radios assigned.


Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Eclipse on February 07, 2014, 10:38:09 PM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on February 07, 2014, 10:08:07 PM
When most of my members get cranked up and head out, it won't be normal.

"most of the members" don't get cranked up - you're either in ES or you're not.  If not, you have no business "cranking up".
There is ZEE-RO reason for a CAP member to be "monitoring" another agency - either we're in the mission, in which case
we've had a comm briefing, or we aren't, in which case the radio is >>OFF<<.

And that's part of the problem, IMHO, we have all these radios and "communicators" many who have no ES quals -
they light up every night on a net to excitedly announce they have nothing to say, and occasionally they pass a week-old message
as if it were news, or more likely some set of digits to comply with a national mandate to pass a message, except they are confidence
checking equipment they can't actually use in an emergency.

Obviously if you're working on the tech rating, then you're active in a CAP activity - comms, otherwise why would you being working on the
comms specialty?  If you're not, and just a casual member who wants a pin, borrow a radio for a few check-ins and move on.

The problem here is that comm people tend to think the way they operate is the way everyone should operate.  A GTL doesn't need
256 freqs, he needs one that works when he hits the button.  Same for the aircraft.  Everything else is for the comm guys to config and brief.
The average member doesn't need that information, he's got other things to deal with.

Seriously, I've got an EFJ in the truck, and two HTs - one issued and one personal (a 16-channel Visar with 4 batts, a dual-desktop charger,
2 antennas and a surveillance earpiece $75), I've been on a fair number of missions and a few high-profile national ones, not to mention
encampments, airshows, and the like.  I've maybe used 4 different channels in 15 year.  4.

I honestly don't consider eBay a crapshoot, and on the rare occasion I've had an issue, there have been business-ways to
resolve them.  If eBay isn't the way, ask the wing DC.   Seriously, have you ever met a ham who didn't have "3 sources of good radios?"

This is how is usually goes.

FNG: I need to find out how to get a CAP radio.

CC: For what?

FNG: So I can communicate in an emergency.

CC: You're getting ahead of yourself - you have a lot of training to do before you can use a radio for CAP.

FNG: Whatever - I already own 12 radios, I'll just use one of those.

CC: You can't operate on CAP freqs without proper training and licensing, also, the radio has to be on this list.

FNG: What?  I've been a ham for 42 years.  Marconi was my cousin.  (checks list)  Everything on this list is either junk or too expensive.

CC: Well those are the rules.  Besides, in most cases if you really need a radio, CAP can issue you one for no cost.

FNG: What? And be responsible for a $1500 radio?  Forget that.  Besides, I need to monitor (insert 128 different agencies here).

FNG: I'll just solder a resister right here and then this radio can transmit on your precious frequencies.

CC: Why are you carrying a ham radio in a church basemen...whatever...you can't do that, it's against the regs and possibly the law.

FNG: You CAP guys have your comms all screwed up.

CC:  ...
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Storm Chaser on February 08, 2014, 01:40:13 AM
Eclipse, are you a Wing DC? How come when someone with experience and knowledge disagrees with you, they're the ones who are always wrong? I consider you to be knowledgeable and experienced, but you don't know everything.

Maj Tomasone is a Wing DC, CUL evaluator and senior rated comm officer. I'm sure he knows what he's talking about. Maybe things are different in your wing, but that's your wing. How does that make him wrong? He provided useful information for anyone wanting to buy this radio. If you're not one of them, then just move on.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Eclipse on February 08, 2014, 01:51:41 AM
I didn't say he was necessarily wrong, especially about his specific wing.

For better or worse I've spent a significant amount of time "unfunneling" equipment, licenses and the process,
and I already granted several times that's it's different in every wing, in fact I said, several times,
that ReCAP needs to to his wing DC and do what he says.  Neither Joe or I are from his wing.

As to the general need and attitude about radios, that I stand by - in the vast majority of cases,
if you actually have a need for a radio, yo have one issued or handed to you day-of, most of the
other use is "optional" or wholly unnecessary.  Which is fine, too, as long as the members understand the
actual landscape.

So, in summary...

I bow to the knowledge of Joe and Arajca and others here on comms stuff, with the
asterisk that I've had to fight these battles too.

Every wing does things different, so quoting a reg that says "every wing is different" and then
saying "there's nothing in writing", especially in this case where the wing in question's webpage
is 404, doesn't say much either way.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JeffDG on February 08, 2014, 02:13:06 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 08, 2014, 01:51:41 AM
I didn't say he was necessarily wrong, especially about his specific wing.

For better or worse I've spent a significant amount of time "unfunneling" equipment, licenses and the process,
and I already granted several times that's it's different in every wing, in fact I said, several times,
that ReCAP needs to to his wing DC and do what he says.  Neither Joe or I are from his wing.

As to the general need and attitude about radios, that I stand by - in the vast majority of cases,
if you actually have a need for a radio, yo have one issued or handed to you day-of, most of the
other use is "optional" or wholly unnecessary.  Which is fine, too, as long as the members understand the
actual landscape.

So, in summary...

I bow to the knowledge of Joe and Arajca and others here on comms stuff, with the
asterisk that I've had to fight these battles too.

Every wing does things different, so quoting a reg that says "every wing is different" and then
saying "there's nothing in writing", especially in this case where the wing in question's webpage
is 404, doesn't say much either way.
Well, you did say that DCs need to approve radios, which multiple current and former DCs have said "No, that's false. Wings have no role in determining if a radio is OK to use or not."

And it can't be that way in your wing, because you dont have a supplement to 100-1 saying it, either.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Eclipse on February 08, 2014, 02:13:55 AM
Quote from: JeffDG on February 08, 2014, 02:13:06 AMAnd it can't be that way in your wing, because you dont have a supplement to 100-1 saying it, either.

You're joking, right?
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JeffDG on February 08, 2014, 02:15:13 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 08, 2014, 02:13:55 AM
Quote from: JeffDG on February 08, 2014, 02:13:06 AMAnd it can't be that way in your wing, because you dont have a supplement to 100-1 saying it, either.

You're joking, right?
No.

You're quite adamant that wings can't add hoops to jump through without going through proper channels, such as an approved supplement.

Here are the nhq approved supplements to 100-1
http://capmembers.com/emergency_services/operations_support/approved-supplements-waivers-ois-etc-to-capr-100-1/
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Eclipse on February 08, 2014, 02:25:03 AM
Yes I am, and yet that doesn't change the hoops, right?

I'd be happy to scan and email you the certification documents I have for my radio's compliance.

We have licensing officers who are also techs, at least one who used to work at batwing.
Every radio is checked for compliance - or at least they were up until the last time
it was an issue for me (which was a couple of years ago).

Every once in a while one comes out "not" and it either goes back to NHQ or isn't licensed.

I agree with your assertion about extra hoops, I fight them when I can, that doesn't always change things.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JeffDG on February 08, 2014, 02:27:16 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 08, 2014, 02:25:03 AM
Yes I am, and yet that doesn't change the hoops, right?

I'd be happy to scan and email you the certification documents I have for my radio's compliance.

We have licensing officers who are also techs, at least one who used to work at batwing.
Every radio is checked for compliance - or at least they were up until the last time
it was an issue for me (which was a couple of years ago).

Every once in a while one comes out "not" and it either goes back to NHQ or isn't licensed.

I agree with your assertion about extra hoops, I fight them when I can, that doesn't always change things.
OK, and where, in the regulations or an approved supplement, does it give Wing the authority to deny use of a radio that is on the National approved list?

Sorry, but that's a made-up hoop that your wing is jumping people through.  I really don't care what their qualifications are.  If they want to test things and provide the results to National, fine by me, but National approves radios, not Wings.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Eclipse on February 08, 2014, 02:29:22 AM
Radio certification isn't a "made up hoop" - if the device is defective you're not supposed to use it just because
the model # is on the compliant list.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JeffDG on February 08, 2014, 02:33:35 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 08, 2014, 02:29:22 AM
Radio certification isn't a "made up hoop" - if the device is defective you're not supposed to use it just because
the model # is on the compliant list.
OK, then where is wing radio certification authorized in the regs?

It isn't, hence it's a made-up hoop.  There is no requirement for pre-certification of any radio that NHQ has approved, before use.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Eclipse on February 08, 2014, 02:38:03 AM
OK.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Fubar on February 08, 2014, 04:28:50 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 07, 2014, 10:38:09 PMThe problem here is that comm people tend to think the way they operate is the way everyone should operate.  A GTL doesn't need
256 freqs, he needs one that works when he hits the button.  Same for the aircraft.  Everything else is for the comm guys to config and brief.
The average member doesn't need that information, he's got other things to deal with.

I know we're bagging on comm people here, but I gotta tell ya, you've just described nearly every GTL I've run into. They consider themselves emergency first responders and can't understand why they don't have the police frequencies for every possible jurisdiction they might find themselves working in programmed into their radio.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Eclipse on February 08, 2014, 05:16:21 AM
Wish I could disagree. Not all, but plenty.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: pascocap2002 on February 16, 2014, 06:28:41 AM
I think Major Tomasone is doing CAP members a favor by posting how members can have an affordable CAP compliant radio.  Be happy that a member seen something good and wanted to share it. this can save a person a lot of money and also get them more involved in CAP communications and also serve quite beneficial in CAP Emergency Services and if the person who buys the radio is also a HAM, then it serves more than just a CAP investment.

We all pay a lot of money to be a volunteer with different organisations like CAP so its always a good thing when someone shows us an affordable way to get more involved in something that helps "us" reach our mission.

Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: brent.teal on March 04, 2014, 03:26:24 PM
+1

Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: skymaster on March 05, 2014, 12:45:16 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on February 08, 2014, 02:15:13 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 08, 2014, 02:13:55 AM
Quote from: JeffDG on February 08, 2014, 02:13:06 AMAnd it can't be that way in your wing, because you dont have a supplement to 100-1 saying it, either.

You're joking, right?
No.

You're quite adamant that wings can't add hoops to jump through without going through proper channels, such as an approved supplement.

Here are the nhq approved supplements to 100-1
http://capmembers.com/emergency_services/operations_support/approved-supplements-waivers-ois-etc-to-capr-100-1/ (http://capmembers.com/emergency_services/operations_support/approved-supplements-waivers-ois-etc-to-capr-100-1/)

Just one minor quibble with the NDWG document listed as an approved supplement to CAPR 100-1 on the above listed link. Whoever authored that document misspelled the staff position of Chaplain as "Chaplin". I hate to come across as a grammar/spelling "nazi", but how can our supplements be taken seriously by higher headquarters, the AF, or other agencies that might see that document, if we cannot get a small detail like the spelling of a major staff position correct. How can someone trust us with big responsibilities if we cannot even get the small things right? Before publishing a Wing-level supplement, it should be proofread FIRST.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JeffDG on March 05, 2014, 12:53:58 PM
Quote from: skymaster on March 05, 2014, 12:45:16 PM
Just one minor quibble with the NDWG document listed as an approved supplement to CAPR 100-1 on the above listed link. Whoever authored that document misspelled the staff position of Chaplain as "Chaplin". I hate to come across as a grammar/spelling "nazi", but how can our supplements be taken seriously by higher headquarters, the AF, or other agencies that might see that document, if we cannot get a small detail like the spelling of a major staff position correct. How can someone trust us with big responsibilities if we cannot even get the small things right? Before publishing a Wing-level supplement, it should be proofread FIRST.

Just a minor quibble...Supplements to CAPR 100-1 have to be approved not only by NHQ, but also by CAP-USAF, so they have seen it, and presumably missed the typo the same way as everyone else.

As an aside, did the misspelling of Chaplain cause you to in any way misinterpret the meaning or intent of the supplement?  The purpose of language is communication of ideas and intentions.  A simple typo that does not change or detract from the message to be conveyed, is of no real consequence.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: a2capt on March 05, 2014, 04:54:37 PM
..and furthermore, it may have been correct at all phases of the vetting process and someone messed it up right at the point of publishing it. [Mess] happens. Lets see if it's there when the next revision comes out :)
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: skymaster on March 05, 2014, 05:16:48 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on March 05, 2014, 12:53:58 PM
Quote from: skymaster on March 05, 2014, 12:45:16 PM
Just one minor quibble with the NDWG document listed as an approved supplement to CAPR 100-1 on the above listed link. Whoever authored that document misspelled the staff position of Chaplain as "Chaplin". I hate to come across as a grammar/spelling "nazi", but how can our supplements be taken seriously by higher headquarters, the AF, or other agencies that might see that document, if we cannot get a small detail like the spelling of a major staff position correct. How can someone trust us with big responsibilities if we cannot even get the small things right? Before publishing a Wing-level supplement, it should be proofread FIRST.

Just a minor quibble...Supplements to CAPR 100-1 have to be approved not only by NHQ, but also by CAP-USAF, so they have seen it, and presumably missed the typo the same way as everyone else.

As an aside, did the misspelling of Chaplain cause you to in any way misinterpret the meaning or intent of the supplement?  The purpose of language is communication of ideas and intentions.  A simple typo that does not change or detract from the message to be conveyed, is of no real consequence.
I hope that I do not come across as pedantic, but I come from a military, legal, and IT background, where we were taught literally from "Day 1" that correct spelling and syntax is very important. In Criminal Justice and pre-law classes, we were taught that, in the legal world, a perpetrator's guilt or innocence will be based on the LETTER of the law, not the intent. In the military, we were taught that lack of attention to detail WAS absolutely a life-and-death matter, and that the number one non-combat cause of line-of-duty deaths was directly traceable to lack of attention to detail. Furthermore, in IT classes, we were taught that one misspelling in a line of code can mean the difference between your aircraft's electronic fly-by-wire system maintaining a proper course, or crashing a multimillion dollar aircraft with the loss of all souls on board. I can tell you for a fact that, if this document came across my desk in the chain of command, that it would be sent back for correction before I would sign off on it. We claim to be a professional group performing vital missions; maybe we could take the extra 15 minutes to review a document before submitting it up the chain, as part of that "professional" action.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: ee1993 on March 19, 2014, 08:42:45 PM
I have bee buying EFJ radios on EBay, cleaning them up and bench checking them, then making them available to members at my cost.  I currently have a range of 5100 handhelds including some version 4 and also a number of 5317 base/mobiles with KPP enabled ($100 ea).  Let me know if you are interested in obtaining one.

Bob Morris
Communications Officer
MER-NC-082

morrisnc7@gmail.com
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JoeTomasone on March 19, 2014, 09:49:32 PM
I've just been notified that these radios have been removed from the compliant list over concerns regarding the lab results of the receiver section.

The good news is that radios already in service may be used for the lifetime of the radio.

It was good while it lasted.


Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: a2capt on March 19, 2014, 11:15:53 PM
One mans fiefdom .. yay. That's going to be hard to control/track.

"radios in service may be used for the lifetime of the radio".. so how do they know, because not every radio ... how to say this.

I have a call sign, I don't need to apply for it. But I get additional radios ..  I used one radio what I got the call sign, i've since moved on. There is not a requirement that we keep submitting serial numbers.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: SarDragon on March 20, 2014, 09:03:33 AM
Quote from: a2capt on March 19, 2014, 11:15:53 PM
One mans fiefdom .. yay. That's going to be hard to control/track.

"radios in service may be used for the lifetime of the radio".. so how do they know, because not every radio ... how to say this.

I have a call sign, I don't need to apply for it. But I get additional radios ..  I used one radio what I got the call sign, i've since moved on. There is not a requirement that we keep submitting serial numbers.

But now you've opened the barn door!  ;)
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Eclipse on March 20, 2014, 01:36:04 PM
Quote from: a2capt on March 19, 2014, 11:15:53 PMI have a call sign, I don't need to apply for it. But I get additional radios ..  I used one radio what I got the call sign, i've since moved on. There is not a requirement that we keep submitting serial numbers.

So...ethics?

I will say that, as usual, NHQ can't even issue clear rules - those grandfathered radios aren't any more compliant
because members bought them.

Just make decisions and stick to them instead of avoiding the conversations!
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JeffDG on March 20, 2014, 01:38:48 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 20, 2014, 01:36:04 PM
Quote from: a2capt on March 19, 2014, 11:15:53 PMI have a call sign, I don't need to apply for it. But I get additional radios ..  I used one radio what I got the call sign, i've since moved on. There is not a requirement that we keep submitting serial numbers.

So...ethics?
Integrity is doing the right thing, even when nobody is watching.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JoeTomasone on March 20, 2014, 02:15:46 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 20, 2014, 01:36:04 PM
Quote from: a2capt on March 19, 2014, 11:15:53 PMI have a call sign, I don't need to apply for it. But I get additional radios ..  I used one radio what I got the call sign, i've since moved on. There is not a requirement that we keep submitting serial numbers.

So...ethics?

I will say that, as usual, NHQ can't even issue clear rules - those grandfathered radios aren't any more compliant
because members bought them.

Just make decisions and stick to them instead of avoiding the conversations!

Assuming that the "allegation" of not being up to snuff on the receive side is true - it only harms the user of the radio.   Presumably this is much more palatable than having however many members quit in disgust.    This isn't much different than permitting the Pre-1-Jan-2006-Standard radios to be grandfathered in for life.   It doesn't bother the NTIA because the spectral standards are only enforced in the event of interference; which resolution would go against the non-compliant radio user. 





Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Eclipse on March 20, 2014, 02:18:26 PM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on March 20, 2014, 02:15:46 PMAssuming that the "allegation" of not being up to snuff on the receive side is true - it only harms the user of the radio.

Irrelevant once the decision has been made.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: tonyairplane on March 20, 2014, 02:24:25 PM
This is what we were sent and it doesn't say anything about lab results, just specs on paper.  Do they even have a lab or anyone that can test radios (such as the ARRL does)?

"Hello All,

  Because this will affect your members and likely prove to be controversial, I thought I would let you know of a change that was just made to the compliance evaluation status of the two Wouxun handheld radios: the KG-UV3X and KG-UV6X.

  These two radios had been evaluated as "Compliant", but CAP Headquarters has decided that, because of problems with the submitted specifications, and specifically the lack of factory or factory agent publication of those specifications, they are now evaluated as "non-compliant".
  Because this may cause a hardship for those members who had acquired one of these models, it was also decided that those radios placed into the CAP system during the time we had them evaluated as "compliant" may continue to utilize them.

  The notes for each model in the compliance lists have been changed to reflect this status change.

73 DE Hartley Gardner
Deputy National Comm Officer"
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Eclipse on March 20, 2014, 02:30:57 PM
Quote from: tonyairplane on March 20, 2014, 02:24:25 PM
This is what we were sent and it doesn't say anything about lab results, just specs on paper.  Do they even have a lab or anyone that can test radios (such as the ARRL does)?

Depends who the "they" is.  We have plenty of members who are advanced radio technicians and engineers with
access to the test equipment.   I know of two personally who could the tests in their basement.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: tonyairplane on March 20, 2014, 02:37:56 PM
"They" is NTC.  "They" make these decisions without actually testing the gear.

To be clear, I was responding to JoeTomasone who said "I've just been notified that these radios have been removed from the compliant list over concerns regarding the lab results of the receiver section."

It is pretty clear from the email that the NTC sent out that they didn't do any testing.

Certainly a lot of us that have GROLs and access to test equipment (both of which I have) could test them, but what NTC says, goes, right?
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: a2capt on March 20, 2014, 02:41:44 PM
The gist of my comment was not so much the ethics battle from the members side, but the silliness from the NHQ side.

I get that they can't set a precedent by listing non-compliant equipment. However, if what is in this thread earlier, that what was stated with these models wasn't any different than other equipment marked as compliant, why are they zeroing in on this one? Is the supplied documentation within the specs? Have they run tests? Have they run tests on -ANYTHING- else on the list?

Does the list say something along the lines of "This used to be compliant but we decided it wasn't, so if you used one before we changed our mind, you can keep using it, but don't buy any more."? No. It's listed as if it were never acceptable. So what does a newly minted Communications Officer/Staff member that's on the ball do when he sees a member using one, and -the only- thing they see is "NO" and "NO" in red. No clause about it once being compliant but we changed our minds because someone got a bug up their rear end about it, zeroed in on this one and raised issue.

I suspect they'll not change the page to reflect that, because they would look silly to an auditor, or someone from the outside that says, "you say you're holding up the standard, you say these are not compliant, but you're allowing people to use them anyway"

What's the difference between adding more, and not. How does that impact the system in our structure?

Back to the radios that require the Sherpa's to program them.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Eclipse on March 20, 2014, 02:42:51 PM
Quote from: tonyairplane on March 20, 2014, 02:37:56 PMbut what NTC says, goes, right?

Yep.

A lot of government "certification" is like this - you publish the spec and assume compliance until a question is raised.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Eclipse on March 20, 2014, 02:44:36 PM
Quote from: a2capt on March 20, 2014, 02:41:44 PMDoes the list say something along the lines of "This used to be compliant but we decided it wasn't, so if you used one before we changed our mind, you can keep using it, but don't buy any more."? No. It's listed as if it were never acceptable. So what does a newly minted Communications Officer/Staff member that's on the ball do when he sees a member using one, and -the only- thing they see is "NO" and "NO" in red. No clause about it once being compliant but we changed our minds because someone got a bug up their rear end about it, zeroed in on this one and raised issue.

He says "no".

From there, it's up to the member to prove he's grandfathered.  If neither the DC or member know about the grandfather. end of conversation.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: tonyairplane on March 20, 2014, 02:47:05 PM
Quote from: a2capt on March 20, 2014, 02:41:44 PM
Have they run tests? Have they run tests on -ANYTHING- else on the list?


From exchanges that I have had with them over the past couple of years, it doesn't appear that they test anything. They go by the manufacturers' spec sheets and advertisements.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: a2capt on March 20, 2014, 03:01:04 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 20, 2014, 02:44:36 PMHe says "no".

From there, it's up to the member to prove he's grandfathered.  If neither the DC or member know about the grandfather. end of conversation.

..and that's my point. The other equipment is indicated in such a way that you may very well find a unit that was put into operation prior to the date, so don't be surprised.

But these? Nope. The record has been changed as if it never happened.

I literally ordered one, and it's sitting on the desk. It's setup to go, but I have not actually used it for anything CAP yet, other than scratch the squelch on my other radio to make sure it's working. This was just a day before I saw that message posted here, and if one wants to split hairs about it, that message posted here isn't even an official channel for purposes of that kind of communication.

It's like communications by sideband. Similar to how CAWG, during a Commanders Call, decided they were going to ban Google Glass from any CAP events, and two other similar items of note, but have posted no communications in written form that can be referenced. 

Write it down, publish it, in the proper channel, via the proper procedure, or it doesn't exist. What good is it if the average member who wants to research can't get the straight poop. Or that average member sees a whole pack of folks using these neat small radios, notices one on the table, makes note of the model number, and goes to order one. "they're using a bunch of them, the Wing Comm director is there, too." Must be good!

Or .. he goes after noting the model, and as far as he can tell that radio was never authorized ever, because that is the way the list reflects it now. So then he's left to question, "why are these people blatantly using that equipment, after all the bantering and browbeating that we've heard on compliant equipment" .. "and even the Wing director is condoning it, since he's in on it too! I guess the regulations don't mean a thing to them".



Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: ReCAP on March 20, 2014, 03:01:46 PM
Once again, the regs say:
CAPR100-1 6-1 b. Radio equipment used by CAP on federal frequencies must comply with all standards of the NTIA. Determination of compliance is based on the specifications of the radio published by the manufacturer. CAP maintains a list of radio equipment evaluated as compliant. This list can be found via eServices.

The email I received from wing says "...because of problems with the submitted specifications, and specifically the lack of factory or factory agent publication of those specifications..."

In other words, they are following the regs. 

The email says "those radios placed into the CAP system during the time we had them evaluated as "compliant" may continue to utilize them" yet the NHQ (non) compliant list says "Members who purchased this model prior to 18 March 2014 may continue to utilize it in the CAP system."  So there's something to fight about...
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Brad on March 21, 2014, 02:12:13 PM
This is why I'm glad my Wing has a form for tracking callsigns and radios that a user is using. When I got my Wouxun I submitted a Wing form to update my file, so if I have to I can prove that my radio is grandfathered.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JoeTomasone on March 21, 2014, 05:01:08 PM
Quote from: ReCAP on March 20, 2014, 03:01:46 PM
Once again, the regs say:
CAPR100-1 6-1 b. Radio equipment used by CAP on federal frequencies must comply with all standards of the NTIA. Determination of compliance is based on the specifications of the radio published by the manufacturer. CAP maintains a list of radio equipment evaluated as compliant. This list can be found via eServices.

The email I received from wing says "...because of problems with the submitted specifications, and specifically the lack of factory or factory agent publication of those specifications..."

In other words, they are following the regs. 

The email says "those radios placed into the CAP system during the time we had them evaluated as "compliant" may continue to utilize them" yet the NHQ (non) compliant list says "Members who purchased this model prior to 18 March 2014 may continue to utilize it in the CAP system."  So there's something to fight about...


I have had discussions with both the National Comm folks and with Powerwerx.  Here's the facts:


1. A CAP Major (unnamed), who is friends with one of the Powerwerx folks asked him to get the Wouxun NTIA certified so that CAP would be able to use the radio.

2. Powerwerx pays for the lab to do the test according to the required standard (EIA/TIA 603C).

3. NHQ accepts the lab report, but requires that (per 100-1) that either Wouxun or Powerwerx publishes the specifications - essentially so that there is a statement from the manufacturer or the importer/agent saying that the radio meets these specs.   They add it to the compliant list pending said publication.

4. The publication is not forthcoming for some time.

5. NHQ decides to remove the radio from the compliance list.

6. I have a copy of the lab report and the radio DOES meet the NTIA specifications.   (I have attached it)


I spoke to the gentleman at Wouxun today.  As far as he is concerned, he is done with CAP, and doesn't care if anyone gets to buy this radio anymore; NHQ staff have frustrated him to the point that he is just done.

I have filed statements of non-concurrence over this (as FLWG/DC) and plan to take it to the National Commander if I need to.   WE NEED THIS RADIO, or something of similar quality at a similar price point.


Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Brad on March 21, 2014, 05:13:15 PM
NTC making a mountain out of a molehill. What else is new?

Press on, Major; based on what you posted it should be a non-issue.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Eclipse on March 21, 2014, 05:15:29 PM
So Powerwerx failed to publish the spec as promised and required.

That means only one of two things.  Powerwerx didn't care to do it (for whatever reason, which is their prerogative), or their lab results were not consistent
with their production runs.

That's on them, not CAP.

The only CAP failing is that they should have waited until things were properly published and documented before adding it to the list.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JoeTomasone on March 21, 2014, 05:33:29 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 21, 2014, 05:15:29 PM
So Powerwerx failed to publish the spec as promised and required.

That means only one of two things.  Powerwerx didn't care to do it (for whatever reason, which is their prerogative), or their lab results were not consistent
with their production runs.

That's on them, not CAP.

The only CAP failing is that they should have waited until things were properly published and documented before adding it to the list.


I personally think there was a miscommunication.   I think that Powerwerx felt that providing the lab report was sufficient, and CAP did not.   

Regardless, we should accept the lab report and reinstate the radio, IMHO.   To my mind a lab report is much better to have than a simple statement.



Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Elmer on March 21, 2014, 06:49:04 PM
The lab report demonstrates that particular radio is compliant.  The spec from the manufacturer says that all their radios will meet the standard. 
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JoeTomasone on March 21, 2014, 08:45:01 PM
Quote from: Elmer on March 21, 2014, 06:49:04 PM
The lab report demonstrates that particular radio is compliant.  The spec from the manufacturer says that all their radios will meet the standard.


Where did you see the manufacturer state that?
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Elmer on March 21, 2014, 08:50:47 PM
Sorry, I was generalizing on the difference between a lab report and the spec.  That seems to be the issue here, that they have not provided the spec.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: arajca on March 21, 2014, 09:04:48 PM
If Powerwerx were to have put the report on their website, which I believe would be a fairly simple thing to do, it would be considered as published. That would have solved the problem. The reason it was listed is the NTC folks were working with Powerwerx to get that done, and after several months without that step being taken, they had to revert back to following the regs. If they had not listed it as compliant until the specs were published, this would not have happened.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JoeTomasone on March 21, 2014, 09:06:56 PM
Quote from: arajca on March 21, 2014, 09:04:48 PM
If Powerwerx were to have put the report on their website, which I believe would be a fairly simple thing to do, it would be considered as published. That would have solved the problem. The reason it was listed is the NTC folks were working with Powerwerx to get that done, and after several months without that step being taken, they had to revert back to following the regs. If they had not listed it as compliant until the specs were published, this would not have happened.


Moot point; the gentleman at Powerwerx told me this morning that he is done with working with CAP; so apparently it's not going to happen.

Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Storm Chaser on March 21, 2014, 09:19:13 PM

Quote from: JoeTomasone on March 21, 2014, 09:06:56 PM
Quote from: arajca on March 21, 2014, 09:04:48 PM
If Powerwerx were to have put the report on their website, which I believe would be a fairly simple thing to do, it would be considered as published. That would have solved the problem. The reason it was listed is the NTC folks were working with Powerwerx to get that done, and after several months without that step being taken, they had to revert back to following the regs. If they had not listed it as compliant until the specs were published, this would not have happened.


Moot point; the gentleman at Powerwerx told me this morning that he is done with working with CAP; so apparently it's not going to happen.

Joe, that seems a bit extreme. If they have the specs and all they need to do is publish them/make them available, then why not just do it. Are they really going to lose the business of many prospective CAP buyers over this?
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Eclipse on March 21, 2014, 09:25:58 PM
+1 - Unless he's selling out every unit, this sounds like he's not able to stand by the lab report.

Drawing a line like this, especially with a customer base as large as CAP potentially is, seems like a bad business idea.

Anyone who's ever dealt with a government, or pseudo-government agency knows there are plenty of PITA hoops
to jump, but that's just the nature of the game.

Publishing a report you committed to publishing doesn't exactly sound "onerous".
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JoeTomasone on March 21, 2014, 09:26:42 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 21, 2014, 09:19:13 PM

Quote from: JoeTomasone on March 21, 2014, 09:06:56 PM
Quote from: arajca on March 21, 2014, 09:04:48 PM
If Powerwerx were to have put the report on their website, which I believe would be a fairly simple thing to do, it would be considered as published. That would have solved the problem. The reason it was listed is the NTC folks were working with Powerwerx to get that done, and after several months without that step being taken, they had to revert back to following the regs. If they had not listed it as compliant until the specs were published, this would not have happened.


Moot point; the gentleman at Powerwerx told me this morning that he is done with working with CAP; so apparently it's not going to happen.

Joe, that seems a bit extreme. If they have the specs and all they need to do is publish them/make them available, then why not just do it. Are they really going to lose the business of many prospective CAP buyers over this?

Yep, they are.    He told me that they are selling tons of radios and don't need the aggravation that they apparently got in dealing with NHQ.   NHQ is also adamant that they will not approve the radio without the assurance that the manufacturer will stand behind the specs.   So, the members lose.    I'm too frustrated to check the redbook right now to see what NTIA requires.

Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JoeTomasone on March 21, 2014, 09:29:02 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 21, 2014, 09:25:58 PM
+1 - Unless he's selling out every unit, this sounds like he's not able to stand by the lab report.

Drawing a line like this, especially with a customer base as large as CAP potentially is, seems like a bad business idea.

Anyone who's ever dealt with a government, or pseudo-government agency knows there are plenty of PITA hoops
to jump, but that's just the nature of the game.

Publishing a report you committed to publishing doesn't exactly sound "onerous".


The story I got was that the radio was evaluated as a request from a friend in CAP.   They had the test done and got an FCC ID and all, but apparently unless the manufacturer swears (by publishing a spec) that every radio will match the lab report that CAP won't honor it.

He does not sell to the Government, they sell to hams.   Much less red tape.   He was under the belief that publishing the REPORT (which he did) was what was needed, not publishing and guaranteeing the SPEC (which really, how can he do?).  So the CAP business is not worth the grief to him.

Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Eclipse on March 21, 2014, 09:52:41 PM
Fair enough, then it appears he was never all that interested in selling to CAP to start with.

Not like we need these things anyway, there's plenty of other options in the market, not to mention
plenty of radios in the field for people who actually need them.

The issue, from what I can see, is when hams want to buy "one radio to rule them all", which is a nice-to-have
for them, but not really CAP's concern.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Storm Chaser on March 22, 2014, 03:32:59 AM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on March 21, 2014, 09:29:02 PM
He was under the belief that publishing the REPORT (which he did) was what was needed, not publishing and guaranteeing the SPEC (which really, how can he do?).

So he can't stand by his product? When I buy a product, especially electronics, I expect that no matter when or where I buy it, the specs will be the same for the particular model. That's a guarantee from the manufacturer. Why would I buy something that may not always meet the same specs or standards? It's a shame because I was considering buying this radio.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: SarDragon on March 22, 2014, 04:11:15 AM
I bought one. Easy to program. Seems to work well.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Panache on March 22, 2014, 04:27:06 AM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on March 21, 2014, 09:26:42 PM
Yep, they are.    He told me that they are selling tons of radios and don't need the aggravation that they apparently got in dealing with NHQ.   NHQ is also adamant that they will not approve the radio without the assurance that the manufacturer will stand behind the specs.   So, the members lose.    I'm too frustrated to check the redbook right now to see what NTIA requires.

His steadfast refusal to publish a spec for his product (a step every other NTC-approved radio manufacturer has to do) does not exactly instill confidence in me.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JoeTomasone on March 22, 2014, 05:11:24 AM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 22, 2014, 03:32:59 AM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on March 21, 2014, 09:29:02 PM
He was under the belief that publishing the REPORT (which he did) was what was needed, not publishing and guaranteeing the SPEC (which really, how can he do?).

So he can't stand by his product? When I buy a product, especially electronics, I expect that no matter when or where I buy it, the specs will be the same for the particular model. That's a guarantee from the manufacturer. Why would I buy something that may not always meet the same specs or standards? It's a shame because I was considering buying this radio.


Powerwerx is the importer, not the manufacturer, so no; I can't expect them to guarantee specs if the manufacturer does not. 

Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: PHall on March 22, 2014, 08:56:37 AM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on March 22, 2014, 05:11:24 AM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 22, 2014, 03:32:59 AM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on March 21, 2014, 09:29:02 PM
He was under the belief that publishing the REPORT (which he did) was what was needed, not publishing and guaranteeing the SPEC (which really, how can he do?).

So he can't stand by his product? When I buy a product, especially electronics, I expect that no matter when or where I buy it, the specs will be the same for the particular model. That's a guarantee from the manufacturer. Why would I buy something that may not always meet the same specs or standards? It's a shame because I was considering buying this radio.


Powerwerx is the importer, not the manufacturer, so no; I can't expect them to guarantee specs if the manufacturer does not.

So where are the radios made then?  China?
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Brad on March 22, 2014, 01:52:28 PM
Quote from: PHall on March 22, 2014, 08:56:37 AMSo where are the radios made then?  China?

Yep. From the back pages of the manual:

QuoteQuanzhou Wouxun Electronics Co.,Ltd.
No.928 Nanhuan Road
Jiangnan High Technology Industry Park
Quanzhou, Fujian 362000, China
Tel:+86 595 28051265 Fax:+86 595 28051267
http://www.wouxun.com (http://www.wouxun.com)
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Woodsy on March 30, 2014, 12:30:32 AM
With this radio now disapproved, what is the least expensive (buying new) approved portable?  Mobile?

Hopefully someone knows off hand.  I'd rather not spend my evening going down the list and googling each one :)
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Eclipse on March 30, 2014, 02:14:59 AM
Used is your best bet, eBay or your Wing DC is your friend.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Brad on March 30, 2014, 02:22:13 AM
XTS3000 is a good one, and dirt cheap. I just typed it in on ebay and see a bunch for under $300, even some under $100. Look for the VHF 136-174 MHz one and make sure it says it can do P25. If you're not sure, ask the seller for the flash code and I'll decode it for you. I got a XTS3000 from my Wing Comms Engineer the other day and it's as solid as a rock. The Jedi and Astro series both Motos are almost indestructible.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Spaceman3750 on March 30, 2014, 03:15:19 AM

Quote from: Brad on March 30, 2014, 02:22:13 AM
XTS3000 is a good one, and dirt cheap. I just typed it in on ebay and see a bunch for under $300, even some under $100. Look for the VHF 136-174 MHz one and make sure it says it can do P25. If you're not sure, ask the seller for the flash code and I'll decode it for you. I got a XTS3000 from my Wing Comms Engineer the other day and it's as solid as a rock. The Jedi series Motos are almost indestructible.

Wow those have come way down. I paid $500 for mine 4 years ago or so.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Brad on March 30, 2014, 03:34:49 AM
Well this one was free, so even better, haha! Just waiting on a programming cable to arrive so I can tweak some settings and add some stuff in for my fire department. But yea, the XTS3000 has come way down since the 5000 has become mainstream. That's what I'd really like to have.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Slim on March 30, 2014, 04:39:28 AM
+1 on the XTS3000, I bought a model 2 (partial keypad) right after the holidays.  255 channels, flashed for P25 and XL encryption.  $220 for the radio and antenna, picked up two used batteries (after a couple of charge/discharge cycles, I haven't had to charge either in over a month with limited use) for $20 each, and $8 for a couple of belt clips.  Acquired the CPS, and it uses the same programming cable, chargers and lapel mic as my Jedi series radios.

The other benefit is that this radio is that-on the inside- it's a virtual twin to the EFJ 5100; essentially the same electronics, just in a different case.

Once the APX line really takes off, look for the 5000 to start coming way down too.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: a2capt on March 31, 2014, 01:29:14 AM
Except $220 is still a long way from what was once approved, but bumped off the list.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: arajca on March 31, 2014, 01:52:35 AM
Yes, but $220 gives him P25 which Wouxon did not.

Additionally, the speaker/mike, charger, antenna, and batteries are the same as the EFJ 51xx series.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Slim on March 31, 2014, 05:20:00 AM
Quote from: arajca on March 31, 2014, 01:52:35 AM
Yes, but $220 gives him P25 which Wouxon did not.

Additionally, the speaker/mike, charger, antenna, and batteries are the same as the EFJ 51xx series.

^This.

All told, I've still got less than $300 into a radio that will do P25, encryption, and has enough channels available that I can use it for CAP, work, HAM, marine and fed monitoring, and still have room to do something else if I choose.  It's also a radio that I know will stand up to some (accidental) abuse and not shatter into a million pieces.  If it gets a little wet, so what?  My Moto MT2000 once took a brief swim in a portable water tank, and is still trucking 15 years later.

I considered buying a Wouxon or Baofeng; for what they are, you can't beat the price.  I didn't NEED to buy the XTS300 either, I already own two MT2000s (48 and 160 channel) and an HT1000, all VHF, and they work just fine for my CAP needs (activities and encampments), I didn't particularly need P25.  I'd been looking for the right XTS to show up on eBay, for the right price.  That just happened at a time I had a little extra cash to spare, so I jumped at it and haven't regretted it since.  Besides, I bought my 160 channel MT when they first came out in 1994; while most Motorola gear will last a long time, they will wear out eventually.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: LTC Don on April 01, 2014, 12:42:59 PM
Quote from: Slim on March 30, 2014, 04:39:28 AM
+1 on the XTS3000, I bought a model 2 (partial keypad) right after the holidays.  255 channels, flashed for P25 and XL encryption.  $220 for the radio and antenna, picked up two used batteries (after a couple of charge/discharge cycles, I haven't had to charge either in over a month with limited use) for $20 each, and $8 for a couple of belt clips.  Acquired the CPS, and it uses the same programming cable, chargers and lapel mic as my Jedi series radios.

The other benefit is that this radio is that-on the inside- it's a virtual twin to the EFJ 5100; essentially the same electronics, just in a different case.

Once the APX line really takes off, look for the 5000 to start coming way down too.

I'm very intrigued by this XTS3000, where does one acquire said CPS?
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Private Investigator on April 01, 2014, 06:31:24 PM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on April 01, 2013, 02:05:25 PM
Want a brand-new and inexpensive CAP compliant radio? Our prayers have finally been answered, and NO, this is NOT an April Fool's Day gag; this is the real deal!...

April Fool's Day again? This thread beats all uniform threads for longivity   8)
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Brad on April 02, 2014, 02:16:35 AM
Quote from: LTC Don on April 01, 2014, 12:42:59 PM
Quote from: Slim on March 30, 2014, 04:39:28 AM
+1 on the XTS3000, I bought a model 2 (partial keypad) right after the holidays.  255 channels, flashed for P25 and XL encryption.  $220 for the radio and antenna, picked up two used batteries (after a couple of charge/discharge cycles, I haven't had to charge either in over a month with limited use) for $20 each, and $8 for a couple of belt clips.  Acquired the CPS, and it uses the same programming cable, chargers and lapel mic as my Jedi series radios.

The other benefit is that this radio is that-on the inside- it's a virtual twin to the EFJ 5100; essentially the same electronics, just in a different case.

Once the APX line really takes off, look for the 5000 to start coming way down too.

I'm very intrigued by this XTS3000, where does one acquire said CPS?

The CPS version 5.03 is years past End Of Life with Motorola, as is the XTS3000, so they don't really care one way or another who has that software as they don't stand to make any active profit from it. TECHNICALLY you're supposed to go through Motorola and apply for their licensing program which costs $200-something for either 3 or 6 months, can't remember which. That said, check around www.p25.ca (http://www.p25.ca) for a copy of the 5.03 software which is the version needed to program an XTS3000 radio. If you give up, message me and I'll send you the link. Also make sure you have the regular programming cable and a RIB box, a ribless cable will not work on the XTS3000 unless you're lucky, and even then you stand a chance of bricking the radio when you start the write process. I found out that my ribless cable was a waste of money yesterday...fortunately I didn't break my radio because it didn't get that far. Just waiting on the mailman to deliver my RIB box and the standard programming cable now.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Panache on April 02, 2014, 01:43:33 PM
Brad... where did you buy the RIB box and cable?  If you could PM me the information, I would appreciate it.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Brad on April 02, 2014, 04:40:21 PM
(http://emotibot.net/pix/1822.png)

Make sure you're using 32-bit XP, the CPS software doesn't like Windows 7 it seems, and even moreso does not like 64-bit Windows 7. Some users have reported success with compatibility mode, but I haven't. I simply repartitioned my hard-drive with 5GB set aside for dual-boot into Windows XP 32-bit, will use that for programming and any other things I may run into in the future.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Panache on April 03, 2014, 04:04:00 AM
Oh, bummer.  None of my machines at home use XP anymore, and I'm pretty sure I "burned" all of my XP licenses to upgrade to Win7.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Eclipse on April 03, 2014, 04:24:05 AM
How is this still a "thing"?  And why does it continue to be accepted by the comm community?

I've seen commm guys hoarding junk machine just for a specific serial chipset, etc.

Why is this not a standard USB thing?
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Brad on April 03, 2014, 05:19:51 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 03, 2014, 04:24:05 AM
How is this still a "thing"?  And why does it continue to be accepted by the comm community?

I've seen commm guys hoarding junk machine just for a specific serial chipset, etc.

Why is this not a standard USB thing?

Serial to USB works, just not the RIB-less programming cable. Think of it as people hoarding their old game systems to play them later. Just because new technology comes out doesn't make it feasible to upgrade everything, especially if it's no longer being actively produced nor demanded.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Slim on April 03, 2014, 06:44:22 AM
I'll try to catch all of the questions and concerns brought up.

1.  As mentioned, I was able to download the CPS on www.p25.ca (http://www.p25.ca) .  This radio and software are no longer supported by Motorola, which is why it's significantly easier to find online.  In fact, in my research on that site, many people there mentioned that they were directed to that site, by name, from the folks at Motorola.

2.  CPS version 5.03 is the most current version for the XTS3000, and also for the Astro Saber.

3.  I use a RIBless programming cable purchased through Kawamall on eBay.  RIBless is somewhat of a misnomer, as the electronic components of the RIB box are contained within the DB9 connector on the cable.

4.  CPS will absolutely not run on any version of Windows 7.  I've heard that it will work on a Vista machine, but everyone recommends XP for best results.  I run a Windows virtual PC install of Windows XP within Windows 7.  The steps to set everything up are rather extensive, but it is doable.  For this, I will say that Google is your friend.  If you're using anything but Win7 basic or home editions, it's significantly easier to set up a Windows XP virtual machine.  There are workarounds for the basic and home editions; it's doable, but a few extra steps are required.

5.  On my Win7/XP machine, I use a USB to serial converter, and have had absolutely no problems reading/writing to the radio yet.

FWIW, I do have older, legacy systems that I use for programming older stuff.  But, I'm still using older radios, and have to maintain a means of programming them.  Particularly, the Jedi series radios (JT/HT1000, MT2000 and Visar) all used dos based programming software.  By that I mean, true dos; a dos prompt will not work at all.  The software may run, but will not read or write to the radio at all.  So, that old Toughbook running Win95 isn't a completely worthless boat anchor after all.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Brad on April 03, 2014, 07:47:30 AM
Quote from: Slim on April 03, 2014, 06:44:22 AM3.  I use a RIBless programming cable purchased through Kawamall on eBay.  RIBless is somewhat of a misnomer, as the electronic components of the RIB box are contained within the DB9 connector on the cable.

You got lucky then, I read a bunch of stuff on batlabs and p25.ca that said the RIBless cables are hit or miss. Mine didn't work, even with booting into XP directly. Same kind you have, from kawamall. Didn't want to read the radio. Here's hoping the RIB works when it gets here. Unless you have a trick for getting the RIBless to work?
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Slim on April 03, 2014, 09:12:25 AM
Quote from: Brad on April 03, 2014, 07:47:30 AM
Quote from: Slim on April 03, 2014, 06:44:22 AM3.  I use a RIBless programming cable purchased through Kawamall on eBay.  RIBless is somewhat of a misnomer, as the electronic components of the RIB box are contained within the DB9 connector on the cable.

You got lucky then, I read a bunch of stuff on batlabs and p25.ca that said the RIBless cables are hit or miss. Mine didn't work, even with booting into XP directly. Same kind you have, from kawamall. Didn't want to read the radio. Here's hoping the RIB works when it gets here. Unless you have a trick for getting the RIBless to work?

No tricks, voodoo or black magic.  I've had it probably 6-7 years now, and never had a problem doing what I needed with it.  The only time it ever let me down was trying to read a couple of DN series HT1000s, and I'm not 100% sure that was a cable issue.  I tried two known working RIBless cables, and an aftermarket rib/homebuilt cable (that I knew worked), and none of them would read either radio.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: ReCAP on April 03, 2014, 03:17:26 PM
I wonder if the CHIRP folks would be interested in taking a stab at these older radios.  Someone has to have reverse engineered the protocol by now...

As for the RIB - what a kludge! 

I wonder if someone makes a headless tranciever module that I could build my own UI for - I'd make a mint! 
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Panache on April 18, 2014, 05:02:31 AM
Oooookay.

Now, forgive my ignorance, but I'm fairly new to the CAP commo scene. 

I'm in the process of acquiring a Motorola XTS-3000 unit, and associated hardware.  I've got Windows XP running in a virtual machine for the programming software. 

Where would I find the actual programming data for the radio?  Does Wing/National have a "programming template" that you pre-load into the radios?  Do you have to plug in the numbers yourself?  Where would I find this information?  Looking on the CAP Communication site doesn't seem to have it anywhere.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Eclipse on April 18, 2014, 05:21:48 AM
Your unit or wing DC.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: a2capt on April 18, 2014, 05:23:16 AM
You typically end up having to do it yourself, against a channel plan .. that you may have to wince, scream, plea, and prod for..  depending on the level of "seriousness" your Wing comm people take their positions..

If the software can do an import from a csv file, it's typically a lot easier to use Excel to do the layout.


But asking here, you may find someone else with the same radio and something more to start with.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Panache on April 18, 2014, 05:23:31 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 18, 2014, 05:21:48 AM
Your unit or wing DC.

I am the Unit DC, so I'll contact Wing and hope for the best...
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Panache on April 18, 2014, 05:25:40 AM
Quote from: a2capt on April 18, 2014, 05:23:16 AM
If the software can do an import from a csv file, it's typically a lot easier to use Excel to do the layout.

I'll end up using the CPS version 5.03 software package, and I'm not really sure of it's capabilities yet.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Slim on April 20, 2014, 02:55:13 AM
Quote from: Panache on April 18, 2014, 05:25:40 AM
Quote from: a2capt on April 18, 2014, 05:23:16 AM
If the software can do an import from a csv file, it's typically a lot easier to use Excel to do the layout.

I'll end up using the CPS version 5.03 software package, and I'm not really sure of it's capabilities yet.

If you'd like, I can send you a generic code plug file that you can load into CPS and start playing around with to learn the software and it's capabilities.  Note that the file I'll send is the original one that came with my radio*; it will only have a few channels, and none of them will be CAP.  PM me with your email address.

Also, which version did you get?  They came in three different flavors; model I had 48 channels in 3 zones (selected using the ABC switch), model II had 255 channels and a partial (6 button) keypad, while the model III had 255 channels and a full keypad.  The reason I ask is that you can't program the same channel (called a personality) to do analog and digital, and the model I probably won't have enough channels to do what you'd need.  You can program them to receive in mixed mode, but will only transmit analog or digital.  So, you'll need to program two different personalities for both.  Mine is set up like the EFJ corporate radios; all analog in one bank, and digital in another.

*-Before you do anything else, read the codeplug in the radio, save it, and guard it with your life.  If something happens, you'll need a good codeplug to reload into the radio to get it going again. 
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Brad on April 20, 2014, 03:18:31 AM
I set mine up the same as Slim. I have analog simplex Zone 1, then digital simplex Zone 16, then Wing analog in another, and Wing digital in a fourth zone. After that it's weather, ham, and other agencies.

I've heard some things about virtual XP mode not wanting to work. You can do what I did and use the Windows 7 disk manager to repartition about 5GB from your hard-drive, then install an actual 32-bit XP install on it. Then there's a bootloader you can install over the XP bootloader that will allow you to be given an OS choice of Windows 7 or XP again instead of it defaulting into XP after you install it, which would otherwise lock you out of Windows 7.

Even with 32-bit XP, I ended up having to order a serial PCI card with com ports for $5 off ebay, plus a RIB (Radio Interface Box) and straight cable to get the radio to read and write. The RIB-less USB interface method would not work. Bit pricy, but worth it doing it right.

Mine is a model III with full keypad :D

Also, I found that a codeplug file that someone sends you is serialized for that specific radio, so you have to do a few extra steps to get that same codeplug set up for your radio's serial number. Just involves dumping certain parts of the codeplug to an excel file then re-importing it under a new serial number.

If you need help with programming, let me know and I will help as best I can. If push comes to shove, send me the radio and I'll program it for you.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Slim on April 20, 2014, 03:35:09 AM
Quote from: Brad on June 07, 1974, 12:19:51 AM
Also, I found that a codeplug file that someone sends you is serialized for that specific radio, so you have to do a few extra steps to get that same codeplug set up for your radio's serial number. Just involves dumping certain parts of the codeplug to an excel file then re-importing it under a new serial number.

I guess I should have mentioned that, too.  But, with something to start getting used to the quirks and specifics of CPS, any codeplug will work.  I went into it with a pretty good understanding of how Moto CPS works, having used other versions for other radios; someone coming in with zero experience might be a little intimidated.

Quote from: Brad
If you need help with programming, let me know and I will help as best I can. If push comes to shove, send me the radio and I'll program it for you.

Same here.  If you have any questions or problems, speak up.

Same here
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: umpirecali on October 23, 2014, 08:30:04 PM
I read through several pages of the thread.  I am a MO and for the last two year have been doing aircrew stuff, but will start out GTM training this winter.  I have ICUT but am otherwise a radio newb.  I wanted to pick up an inexpensive but functional radio that will work in SARs.  I am in Virginia and many of the ground missions are in the mountains.  I have seen people talk about the XTS3000.   Is that a good beginner radio that will meet my needs or should I look at others?
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Eclipse on October 23, 2014, 08:56:14 PM
Talk to your Wing's DC and /or snag something on eBay.

$100 gets you all you need.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: umpirecali on October 24, 2014, 12:59:03 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 23, 2014, 08:56:14 PM
Talk to your Wing's DC and /or snag something on eBay.

$100 gets you all you need.

Something? I don't know a good radio from a toy GI Joe kung-fu grip walkie talkie.  I need some guidance of what to look for on ebay.  I barely grasp the difference between HF and VHF, so some brands or models would be helpful.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JeffDG on October 24, 2014, 01:02:30 AM
Quote from: umpirecali on October 24, 2014, 12:59:03 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 23, 2014, 08:56:14 PM
Talk to your Wing's DC and /or snag something on eBay.

$100 gets you all you need.

Something? I don't know a good radio from a toy GI Joe kung-fu grip walkie talkie.  I need some guidance of what to look for on ebay.  I barely grasp the difference between HF and VHF, so some brands or models would be helpful.
https://comm.capnhq.gov/equipment/equipment.cfm
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: lordmonar on October 24, 2014, 01:05:02 AM
Quote from: umpirecali on October 24, 2014, 12:59:03 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 23, 2014, 08:56:14 PM
Talk to your Wing's DC and /or snag something on eBay.

$100 gets you all you need.

Something? I don't know a good radio from a toy GI Joe kung-fu grip walkie talkie.  I need some guidance of what to look for on ebay.  I barely grasp the difference between HF and VHF, so some brands or models would be helpful.
That's why he told you to talk to your wing DC.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: arajca on October 24, 2014, 01:11:09 AM
Quote from: umpirecali on October 24, 2014, 12:59:03 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 23, 2014, 08:56:14 PM
Talk to your Wing's DC and /or snag something on eBay.

$100 gets you all you need.

Something? I don't know a good radio from a toy GI Joe kung-fu grip walkie talkie.  I need some guidance of what to look for on ebay.  I barely grasp the difference between HF and VHF, so some brands or models would be helpful.
Besides the XTS3000, you can find a number of EF Johnson 5100 series handhelds on E-Bay. These are the same models CAP uses, so getting them programmed SHOULD be a simple matter of getting with your wing DC or someone they have set up for CAP radio programming. Fortunately, the Motorola accessories (batteries, shoulder mics, chargers, etc) for the XTS3000/5000 also fit the EF Johnson 5100 series.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Eclipse on October 24, 2014, 01:17:34 AM
+1 to all 3 above and sorry on too little detail.

I've never met a Wing DC, or a serious Comm guy for that matter, who didn't have either a source or a stash
of cheap, compliant radios.

The EFJ's HTs CAP uses may go for $1800 retail (thus the nickname The Mortgage Payment if you lose one),
but I've seen them going for under $300, sometimes even less on the secondary market.

The ubiquitous HT1000 is still more then serviceable for the bulk of CAP use, and those are easy to find under $100
(at least last time I looked).  The Motorola Visar is a nice choice, and there's a number of others.

On the other side you can spend essentially "all the money" on a radio because you want to use it for more then
CAP, or so that it supports digital and encryption, etc., the latter being two technologies that CAP has been threatening
for a decade and still hasn't executed on.  You'll find the majority of CAP ops running on the same
3-4 simplex frequencies they always have.

My suggestion would be to get the most inexpensive radio that will suit the need as a start, and then if you find something
you want or have to do that it won't support, move up from there.

For a basic GTM handheld, $100 should get you something suitable.

I've had an EFJ5100 for a number of years, and also a Visar.  I always loan the EFJ and use the Visar.
The EFJs are big, heavy, and the batteries are flaky and expensive, however they do work pretty
well and have the majority of next-gen features CAP purport to need in the future, so if you want one,
there's a bunch on eBay as we speak.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Slim on October 25, 2014, 05:41:57 AM
I'm a very happy XTS3000 owner, and have several other Motorolas as well.

The biggest downfall to buying Motorola isn't finding a radio, it's getting one programmed.  The software is flaky, hard to come by, and some of it only works with older, legacy operating systems (I maintain WinXP and Win95 computers so I can program mine).  Then you need to find the proper programming cable.  Everything is out there, but then there is the learning curve of how to use it.  If you know someone in your wing who is familiar with using Motorola software, that would be your best bet.

The other downside to Motorola is that most of what's out there and affordable is no longer supported by Motorola; even the XTS2500/XTS5000 are going to be NLS as of next month.  This means that repairs are going to get harder, and won't be available at a Motorola shop.  Accessories will still be available for a long time, but it's pretty much junk if you break it.

Having said all that, there are several economical (>$300) Motorola options out there that should suit most needs.
Realistically, 48 channels should be more than enough for most CAP applications.The XTS3000 and Astro Saber are programmed using the same software, but different cables.  As long as they have the proper flash code in them, they are also P25 capable.

For someone starting out, I'd recommend the 48 channel (model I) XTS3000.  It should have more than enough capability to do what you need for CAP
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: tonyairplane on November 21, 2014, 05:01:33 PM
Slightly off topic, but hopefully interesting.  I wrote to Icom asking them if they would do a production run of ISRs, we had several emails back and forth, they finally said no.

So we have a system that allows us to use a radio resource that is no longer in production, which is too bad.

Yes, my Wing has them and they offered them up whenever we want.  We just have to drive two hours each way, and sign them out.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Elmer on November 22, 2014, 12:38:10 PM
Fed-Ex would be cheaper than driving 8 hours.  Also, have you asked the wing DC if they can issue some to your unit so they are always available to you?
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: brent.teal on November 25, 2014, 03:33:09 PM
In PA we have comm kits containing, issued to units, that contain 10 or so ISR's.  They are in a aluminum tool case with foam padding and cut outs.  I'm not sure if thats a pa thing or more broadly implemented.

Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Garibaldi on November 25, 2014, 03:42:25 PM
Quote from: brent.teal on November 25, 2014, 03:33:09 PM
In PA we have comm kits containing, issued to units, that contain 10 or so ISR's.  They are in a aluminum tool case with foam padding and cut outs.  I'm not sure if thats a pa thing or more broadly implemented.

It's not unusual or unique.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Eclipse on November 25, 2014, 03:55:52 PM
We have those, too.

It appears to me that situations like this tend to reveal where the weak points and problems are in CAP Comms.

At least anecdotally, the most complaints tend to come from wings that squirrel away their comm gear and
make it difficult to get licensed / programmed / issued equipment because "you might lose it" or "use it" or
the "then I'd only have two" mentality.

My wing has been swimming in radios since forever, though full disclosure getting one hasn't always been
straightforward.  But since at least 2005, there's been a concerted effort to issue everything the wing gets,
repair it, replace it, and not hold inquisitions when stuff is lost or damaged in the normal course of use.

People who have issued equipment don't generally complain they can't spend their own money.

My wing uses radio deployment kits, and has a stash of radios at various places for large activities,
but for the most part has the gear in people hands.

Having a pile of stuff sitting in wing HQ should be considered FWA.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: JeffDG on November 25, 2014, 07:10:17 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 25, 2014, 03:55:52 PM
Having a pile of stuff sitting in wing HQ should be considered FWA.

When I was the Wing/DC a year ago, there was a significant push to eliminate "stockpiles".

We were told that anything beyond 3%-5% was not acceptable...so if you had a hundred radios, you could hang onto 3 or so for quick spares in the event something died, which is not too bad.

The new Communications Table of Allowances also changed a lot of things.  We were at about 1/2 our authorized HF capability, and that was certainly a weak area.  We were over our "mission essential" requirements for mobiles, and low on handhelds.

I thought the ToA was very well thought through...but I managed to escape the job before finishing implementation.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Panache on November 28, 2014, 09:15:45 AM
Quote from: brent.teal on November 25, 2014, 03:33:09 PM
In PA we have comm kits containing, issued to units, that contain 10 or so ISR's.  They are in a aluminum tool case with foam padding and cut outs.  I'm not sure if thats a pa thing or more broadly implemented.

They're also not real ISRs (at least not the ones we have).  They're off-the-shelf FRS/GMRS radios, which you can't use on actual missions.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: brent.teal on November 28, 2014, 10:17:11 PM
Hmm, lurs are actual icom's however to your point I never read the model number so I dont' know for sure.  I am fairly certain they are since we've used them at summer hawk this past year.  I'll have to take a closer look. 
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Eclipse on November 28, 2014, 10:24:30 PM
Quote from: Panache on November 28, 2014, 09:15:45 AMThey're off-the-shelf FRS/GMRS radios, which you can't use on actual missions.

And of course NO ONE would use the GMRS frequencies without the proper licenses.

(Says someone who actually paid the $75).
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: Panache on November 29, 2014, 09:05:50 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 28, 2014, 10:24:30 PM
Quote from: Panache on November 28, 2014, 09:15:45 AMThey're off-the-shelf FRS/GMRS radios, which you can't use on actual missions.

And of course NO ONE would use the GMRS frequencies without the proper licenses.

(Says someone who actually paid the $75).

I actually had to correct another squadron's Comm officer because they had everybody's radios set to a GMRS frequency during an airshow.

There was talk of removing the licensing requirement for GMRS, but it seems to be held up in bureaucratic heck right now.
Title: Re: Brand new, NTC-approved, inexpensive handheld radios!
Post by: brent.teal on November 29, 2014, 05:47:24 PM
Yep icom IC-4008M ISR.