Hawk Mountain Ranger School

[sarmed1]

Why don't you rebut our arguments?

Your arguments have been rebutted.  You (and others) continue to deny the rebuttal because you disagree and then pick a fight everytime some new cadet full of the program comes on here feeling like HMRS is being attacked.   Following the practice of our legal system, innocent until proven guilty;  YOU may think its hazing, but our leadership either does not or chooses not to see it as such.  Otherwise we assume they would have put a stop to it and 2B'd or applied other disciplinary measures to the leadership and members responsible for such hazing.  (and we are talking about multiple NHQ/CC's, Wing Commanders, National Legal officer, and CC's CAP-USAF that have first hand knowledge)

Simply put, the pink belt is a silly custom with no real training value, its continued use lends very easily to entanglement of hazing potential. 

mk

[airdale12]

Ive had it.  This forum is worthless.  I have tried to carry on a constructive and fun thread but nobody wants to STAY ON TOPIC!!!!  You all can't respect a cadet's simple wishes to carry on a conversation about preparing to go to Hawk Mountain in 2010.  You all should be ashamed.  You call your  selves leaders?!?!  I am one of those cadets who went to Hawk.  What I saw there wasn't hazing.  It was tough.... but not hazing.  It all goes back to the age old saying.... "don't knock it tel you try it"...  I don't understand how someone who have never even been to Hawk, who have just herd stories form others, who don't know squat about what he is talking about, can judge what goes on there.  I for one am done with this forum.. and will not come back.

P.S.
This was only my first thread.  Sad isn't it....

Yes, it is sad that your skin is so thin.

Great Example "CAPT"

[airdale12]

I would like to think that if the NHQ staff including the National Legal officer did not identify the use of the pink belt to signify the squadron that did the poorest on inspections as hazing that it must not be (I mean maybe they kept him distracted from the mid day formation for the days he was there).... but I suppose that could be an interpretation one could get from that

But then we should avoid the use of any term that may signal out individuals or groups of individuals that don't succeed at the tasks we give them.... so use of the word failed would be out.....nor should we list Antone's rank or order of selection choices for NCSA's as it may make them feel inferior, and I suppose identifying honor cadet, or honor squadron would equally make someone feel "less than adequate" and well that whole cadet competetion thing is right out the window...everyone who came is a winner (because obviously if you arent the winner...you are the looser)

I'll bite that the push-up thing in the shower if substantiated, is hazing.....fairly clear cut there (its hard to identify that as a physical training evolution)

Ego deflation should occur to anyone in CAP...we may be cool but we arent that cool....I dont care if its HMRS, Blue Beret or encampment staff....I have seen it from just about any activity even whithin just a squadron organizations....

mk

I think this is the best post I have read here so far!

People in Civil Air Patrol have made "hazing' a huge deal. Like you said what about CC and honor cadet?? Your not going to die by being hazed.
I do understand the push-up issue in the showers.

The pink belt I see it more as something that should motivate you to step up and do your s*** right!

Now when is comes to EGO, I haven't been to Hawk yet, I leave 8 July this year and will talk when I come back. I can say this, there are two experts and many R3s, R2s, R1s, and advanced in my squadron. All of them know their s*** and are very efficient in getting things done.

If there Ego is high, I don't blame them, the can go out and perform their tasks quickly and efficiently.

I currently am an R2 and I have learned different topics not covered in GTM3 which I also have. As a ranger I feel that it is my responsibility to continue my education, which I do, I always try to stay proficient in both survival and SAR.

"...These things we do that others may live..."

[Eclipse]

I would like to think that if the NHQ staff including the National Legal officer did not identify the use of the pink belt to signify the squadron that did the poorest on inspections as hazing that it must not be (I mean maybe they kept him distracted from the mid day formation for the days he was there).... but I suppose that could be an interpretation one could get from that)

Could you please cite the complaint, report, or any evidence you have that the NLO was aware the belt was worn and why or that he ever rendered an opinion? His mere presence indicates nothing, not even his awareness of the issue.  Just because someone is the NLO doesn't make him an expert on Hazing, abuse, or even the program as a whole.  I know a couple CAP legal people personally, one I consider a friend.  He can beat the heck out of a hangar contract, but starts making phone calls when the regs and policies about ES or CP come up.
The legal people aren't going to do anything without direction.

Your not going to die by being hazed.

Seriously?  Those that have died and / or been permanently injured during hazing disagree.   A generally accepted statistic is that
there at least one death on a college campus each year attributed directly to hazing, and that doesn't count the thousands of issues
each year where people are injured but not reported as hazing, and/or kids scarred permanently by some FMJ Goober who's seen too many
movies and the kid disengages from the organization, and/or life.

[airdale12]

I would like to think that if the NHQ staff including the National Legal officer did not identify the use of the pink belt to signify the squadron that did the poorest on inspections as hazing that it must not be (I mean maybe they kept him distracted from the mid day formation for the days he was there).... but I suppose that could be an interpretation one could get from that)

Could you please cite the complaint, report, or any evidence you have that the NLO was aware the belt was worn and why or that he ever rendered an opinion? His mere presence indicates nothing, not even his awareness of the issue.  Just because someone is the NLO doesn't make him an expert on Hazing, abuse, or even the program as a whole.  I know a couple CAP legal people personally, one I consider a friend.  He can beat the heck out of a hangar contract, but starts making phone calls when the regs and policies about ES or CP come up.
The legal people aren't going to do anything without direction.

Your not going to die by being hazed.

Seriously?  Those that have died and / or been permanently injured during hazing disagree.   A generally accepted statistic is that
there at least one death on a college campus each year attributed directly to hazing, and that doesn't count the thousands of issues
each year where people are injured but not reported as hazing, and/or kids scarred permanently by some FMJ Goober who's seen too many
movies and the kid disengages from the organization, and/or life.

I don't believe they are going to die from being hazed at hawk. Now your talking about college and other locations.
Get proof that a cadet has died from being hazed at hawk and then we will talk.

[Spaceman3750]

I would like to think that if the NHQ staff including the National Legal officer did not identify the use of the pink belt to signify the squadron that did the poorest on inspections as hazing that it must not be (I mean maybe they kept him distracted from the mid day formation for the days he was there).... but I suppose that could be an interpretation one could get from that)

Could you please cite the complaint, report, or any evidence you have that the NLO was aware the belt was worn and why or that he ever rendered an opinion? His mere presence indicates nothing, not even his awareness of the issue.  Just because someone is the NLO doesn't make him an expert on Hazing, abuse, or even the program as a whole.  I know a couple CAP legal people personally, one I consider a friend.  He can beat the heck out of a hangar contract, but starts making phone calls when the regs and policies about ES or CP come up.
The legal people aren't going to do anything without direction.

Your not going to die by being hazed.

Seriously?  Those that have died and / or been permanently injured during hazing disagree.   A generally accepted statistic is that
there at least one death on a college campus each year attributed directly to hazing, and that doesn't count the thousands of issues
each year where people are injured but not reported as hazing, and/or kids scarred permanently by some FMJ Goober who's seen too many
movies and the kid disengages from the organization, and/or life.

I don't believe they are going to die from being hazed at hawk. Now your talking about college and other locations.
Get proof that a cadet has died from being hazed at hawk and then we will talk.

It is not necessary to cite an instance where someone specifically at Hawk was injured as a result of hazing to show that hazing ANYWHERE is a problem. Ask any school counselor worth their salt about the problems brought on by bulling & hazing. It's not a big jump to say those issues would be a problem in CAP too.

The Jason Foundation website might have some good info. Check it out sometime and let me know.

[commando1]

Get proof that a cadet has died from being hazed at hawk and then we will talk.

Why would a cadet need to die before we discuss hazing, hmm? Is not the fact that hazing is wrong and should be stopped anytime, anywhere that it is detected enough? You say that this is a dead topic but I disagree. We seem to have someone who does not recognize hazing, and in fact defends it. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

So, airdale12 comes in to troll an 18 month old post, and we all jump in to argue with him?

I'm wondering, how are you an "R2" (and what is that in CAP anyway?) without being at Hawk?

[HGjunkie]

....Now when is comes to EGO, I haven't been to Hawk yet, I leave 8 July this year and will talk when I come back....

.....I currently am an R2 and I have learned different topics not covered in GTM3 which I also have. As a ranger I feel that it is my responsibility to continue my education, which I do, I always try to stay proficient in both survival and SAR.....

Erm... Anyone else confused?

[spaatzmom]

....Now when is comes to EGO, I haven't been to Hawk yet, I leave 8 July this year and will talk when I come back....

.....I currently am an R2 and I have learned different topics not covered in GTM3 which I also have. As a ranger I feel that it is my responsibility to continue my education, which I do, I always try to stay proficient in both survival and SAR.....

Erm... Anyone else confused?

Yup, that got me wondering too.  Even more though, he lists his sqn as the FL wing patron sqn which doesn't allow you to participate in activities.

[Spaceman3750]

I'm wondering, how are you an "R2"

[Eclipse]

I don't believe they are going to die from being hazed at hawk. Now your talking about college and other locations.
Get proof that a cadet has died from being hazed at hawk and then we will talk.

Your belief is irrelevant as hazing is explicitly prohibited at any CAP activity. 

Perhaps some time spent with CAP regs would be better spent than working on upgrading your "R".

[Майор Хаткевич]

I'm wondering, how are you an "R2"

The Ranger is missing his gear. He's also going into my files.

[NCRblues]

I would like to think that if the NHQ staff including the National Legal officer did not identify the use of the pink belt to signify the squadron that did the poorest on inspections as hazing that it must not be (I mean maybe they kept him distracted from the mid day formation for the days he was there).... but I suppose that could be an interpretation one could get from that)

Could you please cite the complaint, report, or any evidence you have that the NLO was aware the belt was worn and why or that he ever rendered an opinion? His mere presence indicates nothing, not even his awareness of the issue.  Just because someone is the NLO doesn't make him an expert on Hazing, abuse, or even the program as a whole.  I know a couple CAP legal people personally, one I consider a friend.  He can beat the heck out of a hangar contract, but starts making phone calls when the regs and policies about ES or CP come up.
The legal people aren't going to do anything without direction.

Your not going to die by being hazed.

Seriously?  Those that have died and / or been permanently injured during hazing disagree.   A generally accepted statistic is that
there at least one death on a college campus each year attributed directly to hazing, and that doesn't count the thousands of issues
each year where people are injured but not reported as hazing, and/or kids scarred permanently by some FMJ Goober who's seen too many
movies and the kid disengages from the organization, and/or life.

I don't believe they are going to die from being hazed at hawk. Now your talking about college and other locations.
Get proof that a cadet has died from being hazed at hawk and then we will talk.

Trolls will be trollin....

[sarmed1]

So, airdale12 comes in to troll an 18 month old post, and we all jump in to argue with him?

I'm wondering, how are you an "R2" (and what is that in CAP anyway?) without being at Hawk?

Units can conduct their own training using the Ranger Curriculum; testing/sign off must be done by a member holding the next highest rating.
The written test can ony be administered by a member with an Expert Rating unless granted a waiver/exception by the Stan/Eval section.  Completion of the summer school is not a requirement for completion of Ranger grade.  ( Winter School is required fro R/1 and above, but that is waivered on a case by case basis for those in warmer climates or upon curriculum review for a local equivilent training)


mk

[sarmed1]

sorry , I am going to have to feed the troll just a little.

.......I don't believe they are going to die from being hazed at hawk. Now your talking about college and other locations.
Get proof that a cadet has died from being hazed at hawk and then we will talk.

There is a 60' rappel tower
There is a confidence/obstacle course with a 30' inverted ladder, monkey bars,  rope swing and cable bridge (the last 3 over water)
There are creeks and ponds
There are wild animals and posionus snakes
There is a huge mountain range
There is extreme weather (hot and humid during the day, cold and damp at night, rain, thunder storms.......)
There is private property with live stock all around (and gun toting farmers)

Maybe after you have been to the school you can talk about how likely a chance there is that someone could overstep their bounds and a hazing incident could result in serious injury or death.... (at HMRS or any CAP activity for that matter)

Good ORM, safety procedures and general adult supervision at any activity should prevent an incident (but I'm sure commanders of activites that we use as training examples thought theres was good enough too....)

just sayin'
mk

[NCRblues]

OH NOES....you feed it. Now it will keep coming back.... 

[sarmed1]

I'm going to give a little benefit of the doubt here....he has like 3 posts to his name & doesnt know that resurecting old topics just to offer your personal (and frequently misguided) opinion (especially ones about HMRS) is bad for your health.......

mk

PS wrong droid:  the HMRS R2 unit has orange accents, not blue & the SAR patch is in the wrong location.... obviously a poser!

[JC004]