Hawk Mountain Ranger School

[davidsinn]

How many of you have been to a summer school and  saw how it operated, or are you all just making opinoins on what other people have said about the program.

I base my opinion on HMRS's own newsletter as well as statements you and your predecessors in this thread have made. Per RST the pink belt is hazing. There is no other legitimate interpretation.

[fyrfitrmedic]

How many of you have been to a summer school and  saw how it operated, or are you all just making opinoins on what other people have said about the program.

Here's a polite suggestion: Before you continue in your attempts at defending HMRS, how 'bout identifying yourself for the sake of credibility and reading this thread and a few previous ones for background? It's important for you to understand that this is one of those thread categories that never really ends.

[HMRSRANGER]

A response to the earlier arguement on the fact of the pink belt, and how it suposebly is offensive to females and how it is sexist, well if you ever took a white belt and tried to bleach it it turns pink. i was always told that someone a longtime ago wore a pink belt after bleaching it and it kinda stook as a joke(in between staff not in any kind of hazing way) and turned into a tradition that what ever squadron did the worst throughout the day gets the pink belt. the squadron commander is the bearer of the pink belt and all staff understand what it represents and they no its not in a hazing manner its a motivation to work harder for the next day and make improvements on what the squadron staff is doing so that they can make the expericence better for there cadets so they can get as much tarining out of the school as they can, because i mean jeez they pay alot of money to come and learn as much as they can so the pink belt is basically a motivation for squadron staff to work harder for their cadets and not slack so they can make the expericence ten times better for there students.

Like doing push ups every time I show up with scuffed boots, can motivate me to shine my shoes. Its not hazing its motivation..... Surrrre

Its all negative reinforcement "You do bad, something you don't like happens to you". Can't the rangers just get the same effect by rewarding the best flight?

Who cares if the flight staff "want to do it" (because they would tell you if they didn't right? /Sarcasm) directives tell you not to do it.

Also as its been probably pointed out. Singling out the worst flight commander by making him wear a Pink belt is the textbook definition of hazing.

Seriously its almost like you guys at hawk were trying specifically to create an example of Hazing.

I am a Squadron Commander at HMRS, and there has never been an instance where when someone that did not have their boots shined, that they had to do push ups. At least not in this day and age, i have no clue where you got that idea. The cadets going through staff training are told relentlessly that there image is a very important part of being a staff member on the mountain, as it is in any leadership position within the Civil Air Patrol or throughout life for that matter.

[Eclipse]

As the mandated RST training teaches us, there's plenty of creative ways to haze people without involving PT.

[HMRSRANGER]

IMO that's what happens when you have amatures (like Hawk Mtn "Ranger" instructors) trying to break bad on the students.  The pros know how to motivate someone.  HMRS "Ranger" instructors just do stuff that they saw on a movie.  Oh please.

If you want to see how the real professionals do it, watch "Two Weeks in Hell" (Special Forces Assessment and Selection).  I'm not talking about how they make students puke and quit in the 1st 20 minutes, but how everything has its training objective.  You'll also notice that after the first two hours, there's no yelling (there was even less when I went through - hardly any).  If HMRS wants to teach something, do it like the later phases in the SFQC.  There's classroom instruction, no harrassment, no yelling.  Just learn it and do it.

You're not running an assessment and selection program, you're trying to teach people how to do "X" and "Y".  Do one or the other, but not both.  But on a uniform note, why not have white spats, too.  Nifty bling! 

Okay, first off all you contradicted yourself by saying us "HMRS RANGER Instructors" do what we see in movies. Then you start telling us about how we should run our program off of a movie that is from my understanding full blown military, well i personally thought Civil Air Patrol was a civilian organization or did that change?

Second of all you clearly stated in your post that we do not have training objectives, Well i beg to differ. If you think that because are staff members get vocal at times that its hazing, now i don't believe you believe that but there are people out there that do.(I Will Confess) At Hawk Mountain Ranger School we place our students under high stress environments, by being vocal at times where maybe we're working in the area and or getting to a class on time but we don't do it just to uphold the schedule, we place them in situations where they have to push themselves past what their minds tell them because when on a mission there could very well be a person lost, or a plane down with someone in danger right well, being a Ground team leader on a search i want a team that can push past their own comforts, and find a person and potentially save their life. Thats what Hawk Mountain Ranger School is... We are there not just there to teach the skills to be an effective search member but also be a person that has a mindset of "placing these duties before my own personal desires and comforts.", Without actually being at a summer school and hearing about what we do at hawk, i can understand where most of you come from when you think we haze but WE DON'T, If we hazed, why do we have people returning to the school, summer after summer. I dont know about everyone else but i would rather stay home and be with my friends, then go away for nine days if i knew i was going to be hazed. We do not haze.

"That Others May Live"

[lordmonar]

And the purpose of the pink belt?

I understand your intent to defend the HMRS.....but the bottom line is that CAP does not HAZE.  The US Army does haze for all the same reasons you quote.  But HMRS is NOT ALLOWED to HAZE even if it to reach an specific course goal.

HMRS may be a good program....but it (like many other CAP activities) has a lot of "traditions" and "motivational activities" that have no real training objectives.

Yes having team that knows how to push themselves is a good thing......but is it really necessary?  Is the Pink Belt...used to motivate the lowest performing team....really the best tool?  If the problem is simply a motivational issue then I would agree with you.  But HMRS is a SCHOOL......low performance is most likely a function of not knowing or grasping the training objective.  If you were an operational squadron......where you KNEW that everyone had the basic skills and knowledge to get the job done....then maybe you can use tools like the pink belt (or to use another movie reference the Leper Colony) to improve motivation.

But the problem from my point of view is that there is too much emphasis on the OOOOH RHAAA motivational training and not enough focus on basic skills training.

On the topic of evidence of hazing.

Just because a person does not know that he is hazing....or accepts it as part of the price to play.....does not justify it.

Hazing is clearly defined in the regulations.  HMRS does haze.  It has hazed in the past, it probably will haze in the future.

YOU as a leader at HMRS should be looking at each and everything that you do and say to your trainees and assess....is this really necessary to achieve my training objectives.  Are there any alternatives to THIS method that are not entering the danger zone of becoming hazing?   Do I know, REALLY KNOW, where the line is?

I have seen and participated in all sorts of hazing in my days as an ROTC cadet, AD USAF officer and CAP member.  I know where the line is, I know where "having a little fun" stops and hazing begins.  I know the difference between "he just wanted to see how many pushes up he could do" and hazing.

Gunner C was just stating that when the Army SF haze......they have clear objectives of why they are doing it.  They have very clear directions of when to stop.  They are trained, staffed, and supervised on multiple leaves to push that line as hard as the can but still stay on the safe side of it.

These sorts of professionals have months of training before they are let loose on trainees.  They always have a 2-3 person integrity just to insure someone is watching the watchers.

CAP does not have any of this.  We strive to get as best as we can with the time and people that we have.

But it almost always seems to be the case when clear violations of the hazing rules are pointed out here on CT.....there is always someone out there ready to defend it.

Bottom line......what is the purpose of the Pink Belt.....and does it or does it not violate the RST hazing rules?

[Майор Хаткевич]

Okay, first off all you contradicted yourself by saying us "HMRS RANGER Instructors" do what we see in movies. Then you start telling us about how we should run our program off of a movie that is from my understanding full blown military, well i personally thought Civil Air Patrol was a civilian organization or did that change?

You missed his point. A documentary =/= Full Metal Jacket.

I am a Squadron Commander at HMRS, and there has never been an instance where when someone that did not have their boots shined, that they had to do push ups. At least not in this day and age, i have no clue where you got that idea. The cadets going through staff training are told relentlessly that there image is a very important part of being a staff member on the mountain, as it is in any leadership position within the Civil Air Patrol or throughout life for that matter.

Because it's image that gets them to respect you, right?

At Hawk Mountain Ranger School we place our students under high stress environments, by being vocal at times ...we place them in situations where they have to push themselves past what their minds tell them

C/2Lt. CAP

I'm sorry, how old are you? I'm 20, and neither my CAP experience, nor life experience would give me enough skill to be responsible for pushing people past their limits...

[Fuzzy]

A response to the earlier arguement on the fact of the pink belt, and how it suposebly is offensive to females and how it is sexist, well if you ever took a white belt and tried to bleach it it turns pink. i was always told that someone a longtime ago wore a pink belt after bleaching it and it kinda stook as a joke(in between staff not in any kind of hazing way) and turned into a tradition that what ever squadron did the worst throughout the day gets the pink belt. the squadron commander is the bearer of the pink belt and all staff understand what it represents and they no its not in a hazing manner its a motivation to work harder for the next day and make improvements on what the squadron staff is doing so that they can make the expericence better for there cadets so they can get as much tarining out of the school as they can, because i mean jeez they pay alot of money to come and learn as much as they can so the pink belt is basically a motivation for squadron staff to work harder for their cadets and not slack so they can make the expericence ten times better for there students.

Like doing push ups every time I show up with scuffed boots, can motivate me to shine my shoes. Its not hazing its motivation..... Surrrre

Its all negative reinforcement "You do bad, something you don't like happens to you". Can't the rangers just get the same effect by rewarding the best flight?

Who cares if the flight staff "want to do it" (because they would tell you if they didn't right? /Sarcasm) directives tell you not to do it.

Also as its been probably pointed out. Singling out the worst flight commander by making him wear a Pink belt is the textbook definition of hazing.

Seriously its almost like you guys at hawk were trying specifically to create an example of Hazing.

I am a Squadron Commander at HMRS, and there has never been an instance where when someone that did not have their boots shined, that they had to do push ups. At least not in this day and age, i have no clue where you got that idea. The cadets going through staff training are told relentlessly that there image is a very important part of being a staff member on the mountain, as it is in any leadership position within the Civil Air Patrol or throughout life for that matter.

Dude, the boot thing was an example of pure hazing and how Hazing might get me to do what you want (enough push ups will eventually get me to shine my shoes) but there are more efficient ways.

I didn't even need to give an example because you guys are up the dreaming up text book examples..

Seriously the pink belt sounds like something someone came up with as a hypothetical example of an extreme scenario. Its hazing mmm'kay.

How you guys manage to get away with it is truly a mystery to me. I want to get away with random crazy stuff too....

EDIT: Maybe its just me but am I the only one who doesn't like when people use the pararescue slogan? I know the coasties use it to for rescue swimmers, but dang come up with your own slogan.

[HMRSRANGER]

Okay, first off all you contradicted yourself by saying us "HMRS RANGER Instructors" do what we see in movies. Then you start telling us about how we should run our program off of a movie that is from my understanding full blown military, well i personally thought Civil Air Patrol was a civilian organization or did that change?

You missed his point. A documentary =/= Full Metal Jacket.

I am a Squadron Commander at HMRS, and there has never been an instance where when someone that did not have their boots shined, that they had to do push ups. At least not in this day and age, i have no clue where you got that idea. The cadets going through staff training are told relentlessly that there image is a very important part of being a staff member on the mountain, as it is in any leadership position within the Civil Air Patrol or throughout life for that matter.

Because it's image that gets them to respect you, right?

At Hawk Mountain Ranger School we place our students under high stress environments, by being vocal at times ...we place them in situations where they have to push themselves past what their minds tell them

C/2Lt. CAP

I'm sorry, how old are you? I'm 20, and neither my CAP experience, nor life experience would give me enough skill to be responsible for pushing people past their limits...

Did i say that it was my appearance that gave me the respect, no, what gives me the respect is me knowing my skills and being able to teach them the skills i learned to help further the entire civil air patrol emergency services program not only for the benefit of civil air patrol but for the fact of having search ready teams to help any person that would need our assistance. To be honest whether or not my cadets would  respect me or not does not matter to me, because im not their to gain their respect im their to instruct, maybe thats what alot of people think ranger staff is there to do gain the respect of their cadets, no We are their to teach students plain and simple, give them their moneys worth. But having a sharp looking uniform as a staff member is required because, we are the united states air force auxiliary and we need to be able to represent the united states military in a professional manner, just like every member in civil air patrol should strive to do. maybe we enforce it a little bit more then everyone else by repeating our selfs over and over again, never by any means hazing them. I haven't been around for the since the start of the ranger program obviously so i cannot represent the school for the years i wasn't there, and yes i am almost certain that hazing did occur on the mountain, but nowadays you know the present there is no hazing done on the mountain, and the one thing you all dont understand about the pink belt is it is presented to  and worn by the squadron commander, not any one student EVER. The pink belt is nothing towards the cadets of the squadron at all, its towards the SQUADRON STAFF, The staff then no that they need to get more things done within the time allotted during area time, because if you get the pink belt it means you were the squadron that during area inspection had the most gigs. which is not the students fault, its the staff. so the pink belt is a staff thing, not students and ask any squadron commander that have worn the pink belt if they were hazed , they would respond to u "no its just a stupid tradition, w/e". Believe me if any staff member would think that they were being hazed it would have stopped a long time ago.

[HMRSRANGER]

A response to the earlier arguement on the fact of the pink belt, and how it suposebly is offensive to females and how it is sexist, well if you ever took a white belt and tried to bleach it it turns pink. i was always told that someone a longtime ago wore a pink belt after bleaching it and it kinda stook as a joke(in between staff not in any kind of hazing way) and turned into a tradition that what ever squadron did the worst throughout the day gets the pink belt. the squadron commander is the bearer of the pink belt and all staff understand what it represents and they no its not in a hazing manner its a motivation to work harder for the next day and make improvements on what the squadron staff is doing so that they can make the expericence better for there cadets so they can get as much tarining out of the school as they can, because i mean jeez they pay alot of money to come and learn as much as they can so the pink belt is basically a motivation for squadron staff to work harder for their cadets and not slack so they can make the expericence ten times better for there students.

Like doing push ups every time I show up with scuffed boots, can motivate me to shine my shoes. Its not hazing its motivation..... Surrrre

Its all negative reinforcement "You do bad, something you don't like happens to you". Can't the rangers just get the same effect by rewarding the best flight?

Who cares if the flight staff "want to do it" (because they would tell you if they didn't right? /Sarcasm) directives tell you not to do it.

Also as its been probably pointed out. Singling out the worst flight commander by making him wear a Pink belt is the textbook definition of hazing.

Seriously its almost like you guys at hawk were trying specifically to create an example of Hazing.

I am a Squadron Commander at HMRS, and there has never been an instance where when someone that did not have their boots shined, that they had to do push ups. At least not in this day and age, i have no clue where you got that idea. The cadets going through staff training are told relentlessly that there image is a very important part of being a staff member on the mountain, as it is in any leadership position within the Civil Air Patrol or throughout life for that matter.

Dude, the boot thing was an example of pure hazing and how Hazing might get me to do what you want (enough push ups will eventually get me to shine my shoes) but there are more efficient ways.

I didn't even need to give an example because you guys are up the dreaming up text book examples..

Seriously the pink belt sounds like something someone came up with as a hypothetical example of an extreme scenario. Its hazing mmm'kay.

How you guys manage to get away with it is truly a mystery to me. I want to get away with random crazy stuff too....

EDIT: Maybe its just me but am I the only one who doesn't like when people use the pararescue slogan? I know the coasties use it to for rescue swimmers, but dang come up with your own slogan.

To be one hundred percent honest the whole slogan thing, whats it matter what we use as our creed, does it really matter. no, so stop complaining about completely irrelevant nonsense.

To bring all of this to a close, I refuse to associate myself or waste my time with such poor excuses for representatives of this organization and furthermore, this nation. I respect your opinions, however they are extremely mis-informed and uneducated. For those of you that havent been to the school to actually make analytical judgments, please stop associating the school with such unprofessional behavior. Myself and the other staff, past and present, have worked relentlessly to EARN respect for ourselves and the program as a whole the respect that it deserves.

[Fuzzy]

maybe we enforce it a little bit more then everyone else.....

Dude you owe me a new keyboard and a Dr Pepper! Now I know your joking.

Also we get that just the commander wears the pink belt. Your Hazing the Cadet Squadron Commander. It can be argued that your hazing his cadets as well considering it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out who the worst squadron is. Why point something like that out?

Also I might be a little sensitive to the PJ slogan for personal reasons. They probably don't even mind the moutain and other groups using it. I just think its cheesy to rip it off.... just me.

Ok sorry everyone for the cadet fur ball. I'm done.... Thread drift I know. Lock imminent.

[raivo]

[HMRSRANGER]

maybe we enforce it a little bit more then everyone else.....

Dude you owe me a new keyboard and a Dr Pepper! Now I know your joking.

Also we get that just the commander wears the pink belt. Your Hazing the Cadet Squadron Commander. It can be argued that your hazing his cadets as well considering it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out who the worst squadron is. Why point something like that out?

Also I might be a little sensitive to the PJ slogan for personal reasons. They probably don't even mind the moutain and other groups using it. I just think its cheesy to rip it off.... just me.

Ok sorry everyone for the cadet fur ball. I'm done.... Thread drift I know. Lock imminent.

Listen when i said enforce it more then others i mean that we TELL(not force to do push ups.) our staff canidates that they need to have a fresh sharp uniform, kinda of like a cadet commander of an ENC would tell his staff to have a good looking uniform, thats all i meant by that. That at hawk we enforce(encourage) our staff to have a good looking uniform

[Майор Хаткевич]

i think your point gets acros better when you actually use proper gramar. also may show some profesionalism. you know.

[sarmed1]

Your Hazing the Cadet Squadron Commander

Thechnically speaking its the senior squadron commander that is "supposed" to wear the pink belt.  (I personally avoid the "gig" formation that it's "awarded" at, as it wastes my training time....so I can't speak with 100% certainty as to who is actually wearing it at any given time)  So technically speaking there is no hazing unless a cadet is made to wear it  (as there is no senior protection policy)

Regardless it's a stupid game that really doesnt do anything relative to the training environment.  It would be just as easy to tell a squadron that they have the worst area in regards to inspections. 

Equally its a stupid discussion that has already taken place in this thread (and others).  Why dont we try to actually entertain some other topics of discussion rather than re-hash one already beaten to death.
mk

[Rotorhead]

Iwe place them in situations where they have to push themselves past what their minds tell them

Really? What, exactly, are your qualifications to do that?

Training, education--go ahead, list your credentials that allow you to properly evaluate an individual's emotional/mental limitations and then to know how far beyond those you can safely "push them."

[Майор Хаткевич]

I asked him the same thing. He chose to avoid answering it.

The trick is he gets them to "Push themselves". 

[davidsinn]

I'm sorry, how old are you? I'm 20, and neither my CAP experience, nor life experience would give me enough skill to be responsible for pushing people past their limits...

I'm a 25 year old Captain that started as a SMWOG. I read a lot. I pay attention when other members talk. It other words I think I have a pretty good grasp of this program but I'm going to have to agree with this very wise cadet. I don't know near enough nor would I expect to learn how to safely push people past their limits.

If you are pushing your people past their limits then I would have to say you are not a very good leader as a mark of good leadership is taking care of your people.

[Rodriguez]

once again this thread goes no where and im sad to say it never will. Im sure you all could sit here and discredit the Rangers with all kinds of seemingly valid points, and likewise I could give you a rebutle for everysingle one of them. But, thats besides the point. The point is people have different ways of doing things. Weather thats the pink belt or whatever else we do to motivate our staff. I dont even know what to say anymore, HAWK is what it is everyone that goes there knows exactly what there getting into, if they dont like it they can leave, its a simple concept. From the moment I went to my first FALCON Ranger school here in florida back in the day, I knew what i was in for, and at no point was I forced to do anything. This summer it will be my 3rd year on the mountain at HAWK and I wouldnt be back there if i didnt support what was done there. If you dont support whats done there than dont worry about it. Do your own thing and If there is a serious issue at HAWK im sure it will be dealt with properly.

And as a side note, "Pushing your people past their limits" is a bad way of putting it. I like saying that we get people to come out of their shell and grow as a person. If your not doing that than yeah, you are a bad leader. What people dont understand is that we do it in a caring and compasionate way. Yes were stern in what we say to motivate people but if my students have a problem you can bet that im gonna be there for them.

[davidsinn]

once again this thread goes no where and im sad to say it never will. Im sure you all could sit here and discredit the Rangers with all kinds of seemingly valid points, and likewise I could give you a rebutle for everysingle one of them. But, thats besides the point. The point is people have different ways of doing things. Weather thats the pink belt or whatever else we do to motivate our staff. I dont even know what to say anymore, HAWK is what it is everyone that goes there knows exactly what there getting into, if they dont like it they can leave, its a simple concept. From the moment I went to my first FALCON Ranger school here in florida back in the day, I knew what i was in for, and at no point was I forced to do anything. This summer it will be my 3rd year on the mountain at HAWK and I wouldnt be back there if i didnt support what was done there. If you dont support whats done there than dont worry about it. Do your own thing and If there is a serious issue at HAWK im sure it will be dealt with properly.

And as a side note, "Pushing your people past their limits" is a bad way of putting it. I like saying that we get people to come out of their shell and grow as a person. If your not doing that than yeah, you are a bad leader. What people dont understand is that we do it in a caring and compasionate way. Yes were stern in what we say to motivate people but if my students have a problem you can bet that im gonna be there for them.

Hawk discredits itself. They knowingly and willfully violate the rules. The pink belt is hazing. Period. There is nothing compassionate about humiliating someone. Why don't you rebut our arguments? Dodging them is cowardly and just shows that there isn't a valid rebuttal.