Increased Safety Requirements For Cadet Activities

[davidsinn]

The memo clearly specifies it's intended for NCSA's and Region and Wing activities.

Has anyone received validation yet that this is intended for all activities, including unit and group ones, like bivouacs, oflights, etc?

Thanks.

As of today, the answer is "Yes" - per your (our) Wing CC.

Sure would be nice if these mandates had a phase in period to allow time for clarification to trickle down....

[Bluelakes 13]

NESA starts next week.  Does anyone know if those cadets & staff need these requirements?

Thanks.

[PA Guy]

^^
There isn't any exemption in the ICL for NESA.  So I would say yes.

[Grumpy]

Our cadet encampment is next month and we usually have between one and two hundred cadets and seniors in attendance.  We've sent out notices that they are required to take the training prior to reporting to encampment.  I'm sure we will have the ten percenters who never get the word or just plain put it off.

I was worried about recording the training, especially the AOPA training, then sombody reminded me about the good old form 11.  I'm looking forward to sending that packet of Form 11's off to Nat'l to update in the computer.   

[RiverAux]

I was worried about recording the training, especially the AOPA training, then sombody reminded me about the good old form 11.  I'm looking forward to sending that packet of Form 11's off to Nat'l to update in the computer.

Are you implying that there is a spot in e-services for recording this?  I haven't seen it.  The ORM stuff is there, but haven't seen AOPA. 

[Grumpy]

As far as I know there is not one for AOPA.  Nat'l says do it so I'll send them a copy of the form 11 and keep a copy for my records until they let us know what to do about it.  Should probably keep a copy for the people who took it too.  Either way it a lot of work.

[RiverAux]

As far as I know there is not one for AOPA.  Nat'l says do it so I'll send them a copy of the form 11 and keep a copy for my records until they let us know what to do about it.  Should probably keep a copy for the people who took it too.  Either way it a lot of work.

There is nothing in that guidance that directs that anything be sent to National nor does it specify how the AOPA requirement is to be tracked.  Presumably each Wing will come up with something of its own until NHQ gets its act together. 

[Grumpy]

That's why I'll keep copies.  I figure if Nat'l gets enough paper thrown at them, they'll have to come up with a system.  In the meantime, I have documentation that my people took the training.

[RiverAux]

You're just making extra work for yourself sending them stuff they haven't asked for and probably don't want.  Sort of passive-aggressive don't you think?

[Grumpy]

By the same token, they've come up with a MANDATORY training item.  We've been told that personnel can not paeticipate in activities, especially flying activities, without it and there is no way of tracking it.  I'm keeping records.  If someone tells me that little Johnny Jumpup can't participate in some future activity because he hasn't had AOPA training I can pull his record and say, "Yes, he has.  Here's the documentation."  I've seen it happen before. 

[RiverAux]

I wasn't suggesting that you shouldn't keep records for your unit, just that sending in a CAPF-11 to NHQ when they haven't asked for that would be a waste of time. 

[NIN]

I wasn't suggesting that you shouldn't keep records for your unit, just that sending in a CAPF-11 to NHQ when they haven't asked for that would be a waste of time.

While I tend to agree, it should also be incumbent upon HQ to detail the mechanism by which this should be documented, otherwise we're going to have 52 different ways to do it, and you can bet that once the documentation mechanism is established by NHQ, it will be substantially different than those methods used in half of the wings, resulting in yet more work for the volunteers to have to reformat, resubmit, or track down that which they didn't actually ask for the first time around.

Remember the flurry of activity around OPSEC last year?  I actually incorporated OPSEC into our basic cadet training. Otherwise within six months, we were going to have to go thru that whole exercise again.  Seniors now get it as part of Orientation, but nothing was really laid out for cadets.  So we did it as part of our orientation for new cadets, and then did a Form 11 for them. Problem solved. But at least the Form 11 mechanism was there.

[heliodoc]

Concur with NIN

Standardization in many CAP endeavors lacks a coherent planning or even tracking system.

Ageain refer to NIN's comment on OPSEC and mechanism for Form 11's

Not to mention what sort of mechanism for the AOPA course for reporting..was the certificate sufficient enough?

Again CAP needs to think ahead and PLAN ahead.  Something the organization, in many arenas is sorely lacking.......

[RiverAux]

While I tend to agree, it should also be incumbent upon HQ to detail the mechanism by which this should be documented, otherwise we're going to have 52 different ways to do it, and you can bet that once the documentation mechanism is established by NHQ, it will be substantially different than those methods used in half of the wings, resulting in yet more work for the volunteers to have to reformat, resubmit, or track down that which they didn't actually ask for the first time around.

I totally agree and I think I said the same thing elsewhere in this thread, but having individuals send documentation to NHQ that they haven't asked for won't solve that issue -- it will just get thrown away. 

[Grumpy]

Thank you gentlemen.  River, you're right.  It'll probably make it only to file 13.  Let's just say that this is my way of pointing out to National that they went off "Half-cocked".  They're mandating somthing that has no follow up.  What's to prevent somebody from not taking the training and then claiming they did?

When we complete the Ground Handling course it automaticly gets recorded in eservices.  In order to record AOPA's training somebody is going to have to put the info into the system off of a Form 11.  Like it was pointed out, we'll have fifty different ways of documenting the training if they don't set down a procedure.

Besides, at my age, I entitled to a little excentrisity once in awhile.

[RedFox24]

Well now that this has had time to make the slow roll down hill to the cadets, it is becoming pretty clear that this "safety mandate"  (again my opinion is that it is asset protection for planes, not people) is going to hurt our attendance at Encampment this year.  My in box is plugged up with commanders and cadets who have trouble with internet connections, no internet, time to get it in before our encampment, kids off at other activities until right before camp and the list goes on and on. 

And not to mention the Safety Officers who are PO at this thing............

Thanks NHQ for screwing up a lot of peoples summer. :clap:

[Grumpy]

Well now that this has had time to make the slow roll down hill to the cadets, it is becoming pretty clear that this "safety mandate"  (again my opinion is that it is asset protection for planes, not people) is going to hurt our attendance at Encampment this year.  My in box is plugged up with commanders and cadets who have trouble with internet connections, no internet, time to get it in before our encampment, kids off at other activities until right before camp and the list goes on and on. 

And not to mention the Safety Officers who are PO at this thing............

Thanks NHQ for screwing up a lot of peoples summer. :clap:

Our encampment starts the 8th of August.  We have sent out email messages to the entire state with instructions to get the training completed and to email the docs to me prior to reporting.  Hopefully, I will have a roster of everybody attending prior to the first day.  As I receive all this mail, I will be crossing off the people who have taken the training so that the only people left on the roster the first day will be the ones who need the training.  Then it's up to me to see that they get the training within the first day or two so they can participate and be able to take their orientation flights.  I even have to see that the pilots that are coming up get the training also AND record the training.

See why I was so concerned about documentation River?  Thank you Nat'l for the lead time (Not)!

[Ned]

An update:

Remember, NHQ policy is that no cadet will be denied their encampment or NCSA because of the new training requirements.  If necessary, they will be briefed and trained at the activity.

It is also worth remembering that our cadets are one of the best ways to ensure that safety training is conducted and policies followed.  They are smart, thoughtful, and armed with the latest information.  Cadets are leaders in the CP, and are fully able to weigh in on the running of their activities and point out safer ways to operate.

That is why we are requiring the training of our cadets.  They are our "secret safety weapon."


Ned Lee
National Cadet Advisor
(Cool job, crummy job title)

[PHall]

So Ned, tell me again why 13 year old C/Amn Timmie, who will be a "basic cadet" at Encampment needs an ORM and a Aero class?
Never mind that 95% of the material in those classes is over their head, what do they expect the cadet to take away from the classes?
Remember, this is a kid who will be in a totally different envioroment then they have ever experienced in their life and will probably be in sensory overload until Wednesday at the earliest.

[Ned]

So Ned, tell me again why 13 year old C/Amn Timmie, who will be a "basic cadet" at Encampment needs an ORM and a Aero class?
Never mind that 95% of the material in those classes is over their head, what do they expect the cadet to take away from the classes?
Remember, this is a kid who will be in a totally different envioroment then they have ever experienced in their life and will probably be in sensory overload until Wednesday at the earliest.

Phil,

Simply put, because everyone at the activity needs the ORM and the Aero class, from basic cadet on up tp the commander.

I think it is a bit patronizing to say that cadets cannot benefit from basic ORM and safety classes. we teach them a fair amout of leadership theory as it is, and safety and ORM are crucial foundations to leadership.

And to answer your question plainly, I expect even a new cadet to take away basic ORM theory from the Basic ORM class.  (The class is, after all, pretty "basic".)