Wimpy Encampments

[TexasCadet]

I have read a new supplement from National HQ about encampment, and frankly, its going to turn encampment into summer camp. It says, among other things, cadets will get eight hours of sleep and will be called students. On my basic, we were called cadets and we got 6-7 hours of sleep (usually 6). We were woken up with whistle, yelling, and banging on our lockers. Heck, when I went to Airman Leadership School, we were woken up with air horns! Is it just me, or are we (CAP) getting soft?

[Eclipse]

It is highly likely those activities you attended before were breaking existing regs, common sense, or both.

The document you are referring to is not "supplement" it is the new encampment guide and cadet protection policies.

for the most part, little has changed, however like many things in CAP, what appears to be common sense isn't, and
it has to be written in big bright letters on the wall before people will comply.

CAP is not BMT, and that's not how encampments and similar activities are supposed to be run.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I have read a new supplement from National HQ about encampment, and frankly, its going to turn encampment into summer camp. It says, among other things, cadets will get eight hours of sleep and will be called students. On my basic, we were called cadets and we got 6-7 hours of sleep (usually 6). We were woken up with whistle, yelling, and banging on our lockers. Heck, when I went to Airman Leadership School, we were woken up with air horns! Is it just me, or are we (CAP) getting soft?

We ran a hybrid of the new and old curriculum, and I can tell the cadets were stressed just right this year when compared to in the past.

[lordmonar]

I have read a new supplement from National HQ about encampment, and frankly, its going to turn encampment into summer camp. It says, among other things, cadets will get eight hours of sleep and will be called students. On my basic, we were called cadets and we got 6-7 hours of sleep (usually 6). We were woken up with whistle, yelling, and banging on our lockers. Heck, when I went to Airman Leadership School, we were woken up with air horns! Is it just me, or are we (CAP) getting soft?

When I was at USAF BMTS we got 8 hours of sleep (lights out at 2200 and revile at 0600) broken only for fire alarms (not drills) and Dorm Guard duty (usually only an hour long).

We were woken up by bugle call on the PA.

There is no reason.....NO REASON for cadet not given the opportunity to het 8 hours of sleep.
Everyone is a cadet.......encampment attendees (as opposed to staff) are called students,  not "basics", "Smacks", "Plebes", "Doolies", "Nuebs" or any thing that could be considered derogatory.

This is exactly what the USAF does at BMTS.....everyone is a "recruit" until they graduate (or just before).

This is not because CAP is getting soft.  This is because too many in CAP think encampment is supposed to be Full Metal Jacket......and that is just BS for a cadet program.

[TexasCadet]

I don't think cadets should be called those names. They are offensive. My problem is that cadets at my encampment were saying that it was to easy and almost boring! I think that encampment should be boot camp-like, since we are USAF Auxilary, just not with stuff like dropping cadets for push-ups, or cursing, or things of that nature.

[Eclipse]

I think that encampment should be boot camp-like, since we are USAF Auxilary,

That isn't, and has not been, the intention of an encampment for recent memory.

just not with stuff like dropping cadets for push-ups, or cursing, or things of that nature.

Neither is allowed at encampments or anywhere in CAP, nor has it been in recent memory.

[lordmonar]

I don't think cadets should be called those names. They are offensive. My problem is that cadets at my encampment were saying that it was to easy and almost boring! I think that encampment should be boot camp-like, since we are USAF Auxilary, just not with stuff like dropping cadets for push-ups, or cursing, or things of that nature.

a.  It is not boot camp.  b. We would like to do those things too.....but we don't have the time and supervision to make sure that they don't cross the line....and too often in the many years we have been doing this....people are always crossing the line. C.  Have you been to USAF basic training.....in '86 they did not drop us and do push ups.....I understand now that they do more of this....but it is not like Full Metal Jacket.....we certainly did not have TI's running around yelling at us to wake up.....they had a perfectly good PA system for that.

Too easy is better IMHO then too hard.  If you want hard core yelling....well you can always join the service or go to the academies and they will yell at you all that you want.  No need to be doing the Gunny Hardman on 12 year olds.

[Eclipse]

Cadet,

To help you with this, answer this question.

"What is the role and mission of an encampment?"

And I'll give you a hint, it is >not< "Basic Cadet Training", since that has already happened at the unit to earn the Curry.

Everything else flows from that question.

[Storm Chaser]

As someone who went to CAP encampment as a cadet in the late-80s, Air Force basic training in the mid-90s and Air Force officer school in the early-2000s, I can tell you that CAP encampment is not meant to be (and it shouldn't be) like basic training. Getting 8 hours of sleep doesn't make it a "wimpy" encampment; it provides cadets with sufficient amount of sleep so that they can have productive learning the following day.

While I believe that CAP standards should be taught and enforced in encampment and CAP in general, and in some instances the bar should be raised, I fail to see how yelling at 12 and 13 year old cadets can be conducive to their development in the Cadet Programs. I think that's just an excuse for some cadets in the staff (and possibly even senior members) to allow hazing in the name of "training".

CAP is NOT the U.S. Air Force. Basic Military Training is meant to forge a civilian into an Airman (or Soldier, Sailor, Marine, etc.) that will have to give up many of his/her civilian freedoms for the military life and may have to face combat and/or dangerous situations at some point in their military career. How does that relate to cadets in CAP?

[Brad]

I have read a new supplement from National HQ about encampment, and frankly, its going to turn encampment into summer camp. It says, among other things, cadets will get eight hours of sleep and will be called students. On my basic, we were called cadets and we got 6-7 hours of sleep (usually 6). We were woken up with whistle, yelling, and banging on our lockers. Heck, when I went to Airman Leadership School, we were woken up with air horns! Is it just me, or are we (CAP) getting soft?

My question: Why? What purpose does it serve? Encampment serves to reinforce what the cadet learns at his or her own unit about the function and organization and operation of CAP, and to better prepare him or her to take on leadership roles back at their home unit. It's NOT basic training, you're focusing on one aspect of it and trying to apply it to the whole thing. But again, what purpose does sleep-depriving these cadets and stressing them out at 0500 (or 0400 assuming Taps at 2200 and your 6 hours of sleep) with banging on lockers....which could potentially fall on cadets, those things are top heavy...serve?

Am I saying that hardcore stuff isn't fun? No, heck I've done it myself in the past when I was a cadet of a different uniform, but as I've grown I've learned to see the why behind it.

Sure it's done in the military, but less and less these days. The Marines tend to be a holdout but that goes moreso towards tradition, plus even with the military as a whole, it has a purpose: its designed to build up an instant response to a high stress situation.

"But sir, so are we! My cadets aren't moving fast enough, so by the end of the week we want them to move REALLY fast so we yell at them in the morning to build up this instant response!" Yes but you're forgetting one key element, the military has a practical aspect of this as well: combat. Their objective is to preserve that instant response mindset during the heat of combat. Our cadets aren't going into battle, theirs is more a leadership theory objective, building better youth, etc. etc. You still want to work towards instant response? Military drill. It's always built in to the very objectives of it in my 13 years I've been a student of it.

Stop watching FMJ and think about the why cadet, please.

[PA Guy]

Texas Cadet,

Go read CAPR 52-16 chap 9-1 particularly para a & b. 

To ans. a specific question you have.  An adequate amount of sleep is needed so that cadets can be alert and absorb the training they should be receiving.  An inadequate sleep plan is a major leadership failure.  So, please tell me what training purpose sleep deprivation serves in a CAP encampment?

Come to think of it during Marine OCS we got about 8hrs/night except when we were in the field.

[Critical AOA]

I am not involved in the cadet program so my thoughts can be taken with a grain of salt and dismissed if you so please.   That said, I think encampments should have the goal of challenging cadets both intellectually and physically. 

The intellectual can be courses on AE, radio usage, land navigation, air navigation, first aid, leadership, etc.   The physical can be done through hiking, a PT program, an obstacle course of appropriate difficulty for the age group, land navigation / orienteering course, etc. 

However being challenging does not mean providing less than the amount of sleep recommended by medical professionals for the age group. The Mayo Clinic's website recommends 9 – 11 hours for school age children.  Providing less than that is irresponsible and possibly opens CAP to legal liability should something go wrong and it is caused by fatigue. 

Neither should cadets be subject to any sort of verbal abuse whether it be name calling, being yelled or cursed at, being belittled in any manner, etc.   It sure takes a big man to treat a kid that way.  NOT!

Senior members who are leading encampments and engage in such behavior should be removed from the cadet program and even CAP altogether.  It speaks volumes about their mentality, integrity and personality.

Even most of the services basic training does not engage in sleep deprivation.  That is normally reserved for Special Forces training.  They might run you to death during the day but they normally ensure that you get plenty of rest as well. 

So if you are a cadet and want it rough, join the military and become SF.  If you are an adult and want to be a tough guy drill instructor, man up and do it for real with real men, not kids.

[dwb]

I prefer "in-flights" or "basics" to students, but ultimately it doesn't really matter, does it? Having a standard term is more important to me than insisting that it be my standard term.

I like the idea of allotting 8 uninterrupted hours for lights out. It ensures that we can fill the students' days with activities while also helping to prevent huge sleep deficits by the end of the week that can impair judgment and make people cranky.

It's entirely possible to have a challenging, high-intensity activity while also treating the participants with respect and making sure they get a good night's sleep. Those aren't mutually exclusive things.

[lordmonar]

Absolutely......It still allows us to stress them.....we just do it at 0600 instead of 0500....and we get them all into their beds and lights out at 2200 instead of 2300.

If your activity is sooooooo packed that you need those two hours....let me know what you are doing....because with only 8 hours of "required" events 3 hours for eating.......one whole hour of personal time......that 12 hours of activities and 8 hours of sleep....you still have four hour to do all the FMJ get your barracks squared away, pick them up put them down BS you want.

In most of the encampment threads I have read.....the staff complains about too much down time due to scheduling shifts.

Typical day.

0600 Reville
0615 PT
0700 Shower and change
0730 Chow
0830 First Formation
1230 Chow
1330 Second formation
1730 Chow
1830 Retreat
1900 Sgt's time
2100 Personal Time
2200 Lights Out

A full day with 8 hours of sleep, 8 program hours, 3 hours for chow, and 2 hours for training in the dorm.
No need for sleep depravation.

It is the staff that gets the shaft because they have to have meetings and getoghers and other BS after lights out.

[MajorM]

The mistake many cadet staff (and some senior staff) make is believing that  stress equals intensity.  Lack of sleep certainly causes stress.  But stress does not equal intensity, therefore stress for the sake of stress is counterproductive.

Intensity is created by earning the trust of your followers, getting them to buy in to the end-of-encampment goals, and then challenging them to reach those goals.  The intensity grows out of a sense of not wanting to fail (initially) and if you're doing it right it then grows from a sense of wanting to kick the snot out if those standards and overachieve.

[Eclipse]

Just walking in the door...

1) They aren't at home (and for far too many the first time away from mom & dad overnight)

B) Their entire existence is regimented 24x7 for the entire activity, including what they can eat, when they sleep, what they wear, and what they have to do.

3) No caffeine, no energy drinks, no junk food, no video games, social media or any other outside connectivity.

D) The staff, as well as the majority of other cadets there are likely to be strangers.

5) There is, or soon will be, an academic expectation in order to actually get credit (it is now possible to "fail" encampment).

That's plenty for a 12-15 year old, especially when you consider the tissue-paper many young people are made of these days
thanks to well-meaning helicopter parents.

And then on top of this, some staffers, and far too many adult leaders, want to introduce artificial stress into the environment by yelling
themselves silly (literally) and hoarse.

If you wouldn't do it at your home squadron, it doesn't belong at encampment, since one of the goals of an encampment is supposed to model
proper behavior and technique for cadets and staff to then bring back to their home units.

[Garibaldi]

Just walking in the door...

1) They aren't at home (and for far too many the first time away from mom & dad overnight)

B) Their entire existence is regimented 24x7 for the entire activity, including what they can eat, when they sleep, what they wear, and what they have to do.

3) No caffeine, no energy drinks, no junk food, no video games, social media or any other outside connectivity.

D) The staff, as well as the majority of other cadets there are likely to be strangers.

5) There is, or soon will be, an academic expectation in order to actually get credit (it is now possible to "fail" encampment).

That's plenty for a 12-15 year old, especially when you consider the tissue-paper many young people are made of these days
thanks to well-meaning helicopter parents.

And then on top of this, some staffers, and far too many adult leaders, want to introduce artificial stress into the environment by yelling
themselves silly (literally) and hoarse.

If you wouldn't do it at your home squadron, it doesn't belong at encampment, since one of the goals of an encampment is supposed to model
proper behavior and technique for cadets and staff to then bring back to their home units.

Agree 100% with your last. Too much to deal with without some strange kid getting in your face and screaming himself hoarse. No place in CAP for that. Not anymore. Kids these days are so plugged in that unplugging them, sending them to a military base, regimenting their schedule, then turning them back to their parents can do a number on their head.

[a2capt]

We ran a hybrid of the new and old curriculum, and I can tell the cadets were stressed just right this year when compared to in the past.

This. Right here. There was nothing easy about it. If you're doing it right. You'll know it. The rest of that garbage has no place in the program. That's not what it's all about and that's a prime example of Stupid Staff that does not Get It.

[Grumpy]

We ran a hybrid of the new and old curriculum, and I can tell the cadets were stressed just right this year when compared to in the past.

This. Right here. There was nothing easy about it. If you're doing it right. You'll know it. The rest of that garbage has no place in the program. That's not what it's all about and that's a prime example of Stupid Staff that does not Get It.

What are you doing up at this time of the morning?  You have a National Color Guard Competition to worry about in the morning.  What, 4 hours from now?  Shame, shame.

[Grumpy]

I can remember the old encampments back the late 50's, early 60 where we had to "drop and give them ten" for not knowing an answer to some question.  We might not have been the brights cadets but we certainly went home stronger cadets. 

I find we have to rein our cadets in when they get back from encampment.