Hawk vs NESA

[Майор Хаткевич]

Well I can only tell you about myself. I don't wear a NESA patch because I still have to go to that school. As soon as I have the vacation time I will be going. So I am not allowed to wear that patch.

NCSA =/= NESA

I have graduated from HMRS so I wear that patch.  I do wear my ranger tab. It lets students know right away what I can sign them off for.

Again, the question is why. Why the HMRS "bells and whistles" (actually, " " not needed). Why the berets? Etc.

I am a GBD but earned my GTL first. That badge is still on my uniform because I don't feel like sewing on a slightly different badge. I still have uniforms with second Lt grade on them. Because being a senior member officer in CAP with a dollar in my pocket will still just get me a cup of Coffee.

Maybe it's time to learn to do it yourself then...

I never heard of anyone saying that if the uniforms changed they would not come back.

What?

[Eclipse]

Well I can only tell you about myself. I don't wear a NESA patch because I still have to go to that school.

Excellent.

NCSA = National Cadet Special Activities, which both NESA and HMRS are are one (somewhere SARDRAGON just threw up a little in his mouth from that sentence but doesn't know why). NESA sees fit to stay within the program and simply issues
a patch worn in the NCSA area, but that is not enough for HMRS.

I do wear my ranger tab. It lets students know right away what I can sign them off for. I am a GBD but earned my GTL first. That badge is still on my uniform because I don't feel like sewing on a slightly different badge. I still have uniforms with second Lt grade on them. Because being a senior member officer in CAP with a dollar in my pocket will still just get me a cup of Coffee.

This paragraph speaks volumes regarding your acceptance of the regs and the program as a whole.  You took the time to
sew a ranger tab on, but you can't wear the proper ES qualification badge, and you seem to disdain CAP grade.

I don't think there's much else you need to say, we get it.

[nesagsar]

I want you to contact me because I don't want to waste everyones time with this and I want to keep the thread on subject. You seem to be very grounded in your biased attitude of HMRS. I would like to discuss your issues on a case by case level. But not on this thread. "The Hawk Mountain attitude" concerns me and I belive it to be unjustified.
I will tell you that "patient packaging" is a GTM skill. Participate in a litter carry is on the GTM sheet. I do hope that you are not just moving around a empty litter or even worse just flopping a patient and a stretcher unsecured and walking the patient out of the woods like that. That should end that part of the argument.
Other skills that rangers are taught that GTM members are not.
Knots, very usefull and should be a GTM skill. Just for setting up a shelter, another GTM skill.
Fire building, You need the ability to heat your meals. In a disaster electricity would be out, maybe gas lines in urban areas would be out and you might have gas leaks. When and where is it safe to have a fire and what is a safe fire?
Water procurement, How to make water safe to drink. This skill is obvious.
Rope work, and I don't mean rappelling but low angle stuff for moving a stretcher or yourself up and down steep or slick terrain SAFLEY. You should not have to stop and operation if the vehicle you need to get to is 25 feet above you on a steep rise to the road. Raised roadways go on for miles and are common everywhere.
Basic survival skills.
Safety with edged tools.
Also at the end of summer school they have become more self sufficient as it is a rugged environment that they have lived in the past 9 days.
Those are some of the differences in skills.
There is also PT requirements. You can be a IC1 but if you are unable to preform the task due to health reasons you are a risk to the op and a potential casualty.
Medic program. Well I guess we should just stop teaching the masses of the world CPR or first aid. Since not everyone will use those skills. Not that the skills the students are taught in the CAP medic program would greatly benefit that student outside of CAP. They are taught real world skills that are used in fire service and EMS on a daily basis. As a senior member I would welcome a HMRS trained medic if I had a student who was showing signs of dehydration or heat exhaustion, so that they can monitor that student and treat that student and keep the rest of the class on point and learning what they came there to learn. It frees' me up to do my job and I know the medic is competent to do theirs.

Most of that stuff was taught at NESA GT Basic when I was there in 2003. I already knew it from scouting but that just meant that I got to assist in teaching it to the others.

[Eclipse]

Most of that stuff was taught at NESA GT Basic when I was there in 2003. I already knew it from scouting but that just meant that I got to assist in teaching it to the others.

Why did they take knots and firecraft out of GTM?

[JC004]

Most of that stuff was taught at NESA GT Basic when I was there in 2003. I already knew it from scouting but that just meant that I got to assist in teaching it to the others.

Why did they take knots and firecraft out of GTM?

Safety reasons.  Fires are too dangerous for cadets.  Cadets could tie one another to things.

[Ed Bos]

Safety reasons.  Fires are too dangerous for cadets.  Cadets could tie one another to things.

HA!

[NC Hokie]

Why did they take knots and firecraft out of GTM?

Safety reasons.  Fires are too dangerous for cadets.  Cadets could tie one another to things.

You know, if cadets in ES were taught proper knots, the senior members in charge might be able to free those cadets tied to other things!

[nesagsar]

Safety reasons.  Fires are too dangerous for cadets.  Cadets could tie one another to things.

HA!

I vote that this scenario be put in the next version of Avoiding the Hazing Trap.

[JC004]

Safety reasons.  Fires are too dangerous for cadets.  Cadets could tie one another to things.

HA!

I vote that this scenario be put in the next version of Avoiding the Hazing Trap.

The best such class EVER was taught by the DEWG CC, who used me as a demonstration, "hazing" (yes, quotes - he didn't actually haze me until I was a SM...heh heh) me to ask the "hazing or not hazing" questions.  It was at...Hawk. 

[Bobble]

I view ranger tabs exactly the same way as blue berets and NESA ball caps. Keep it at the activity you earned it at. All other times, follow 39-1.

This (see pic at lower right-hand corner, text in lower right-hand corner of pic):

http://www.pawingcap.com/hawk/ranger_staff_training.htm

"- Eligible for wear in all Wings"  Who knew?

Just because Hawk says it does not make it so. There are so many blatant uniform violations there that it's not even funny. That and it just plain looks stupid. Starched uniform? Really? That's a good way to rub something raw or over heat.

Thanks, I realize that, I was just being a bit snarky.  I thought it was interesting that this was the first time I have seen hard evidence (other than anecdotal) regarding what HMRS graduates are informed of regarding the wearing of their "bling" outside of HMRS.  Obviously no reference to the wearing of a Ranger Tab as part of the BDU/BBDU/Utility Uniform exists in CAPM 39-1 or subsequent ICL's (ICM's?), yet there it is in plain sight on the WWW that yes, according to the HMRS staff, the Ranger Tab is "Eligible for wear in all Wings".

Perhaps in this instance the word "eligible" has a different connotation from that of "permitted"?

[sarmed1]

Obviously no reference to the wearing of a Ranger Tab as part of the BDU/BBDU/Utility Uniform exists in CAPM 39-1 or subsequent ICL's (ICM's?), yet there it is in plain sight on the WWW that yes, according to the HMRS staff, the Ranger Tab is "Eligible for wear in all Wings".

I do ask the status of this every now and again....usually it ends up in a once "they" get around to putting out an updated 39-1 it will be included..." kind of conversation.  The "hold-up" is approval for wear on the AF style uniform; however, being as there is no AF approval required for CAP specific uniforms; tabs are authorized for wear on the BBDU.  (the NB meeting approval reference that is out there; "....authorized all awards...." or however it is worded.)

I would personally say that there is a difference between eligible vs approved.... ie if you wing puts it into a supplement/ICL then it would be ok; not just because someone at HMRS or worse namesless, faceless person on the interweb said so......

mk

[BillB]

The Hawk bling was pushed by the former National Commander who attended Hawk. It was introduced by the Florida Wing Commander, Col. Levitch. Which in it's self is unique since the Hawk bling was not authorized to be worn in Florida Wing.

[sarmed1]

Please explain to me why we need GT ratings and then "ranger" ratings. Please explain what it is a ranger is certified to do that i cannot do as a GTL/GBD.

Please explain why "ranger medics" have anything to offer other than a little more advanced first aid, when CAP as a whole can't even take medications from minor children at overnight activity's anymore.

The first one I have started to ask about (again).  There was a push under Pineda to get Ranger ratings on the 101 card; I asked what specifically that would qualify you to do over the regular GTM program; my answer and the push died with his ousting.  I have heard rumblings of the same again lately and again have asked what/why.  The discussion has gone down the path of since the rest of CAP now has pretty much the same standards as the Ranger program (remember there was a time that there was no GTM curriculum, the Rangers were the only ones in CAP with a well documented capabilities/skill & knowledge document & practice), where should the Ranger program be going?  ie they niched the wilderness SAR world of CAP for how long, if they want to be something special, what is that next niche that they are uniquely suited to provide for.  GTM plus 72 hours self sustaining & high terrain mobility and steep terrain/high angle evac dont really warrant a "special" qualification to me. (OK maybe the whole "rope rescue" but there is a provision for that in 60-3, and HMRS doesnt have a corner on that market anymore than the local fire/rescue training community)

that is a discussion still in progress; hopefully it is engaged more at this years school.

#2: I could likely entertain an entire/separate thread on the medic program.  Just like many other aspects of CAP, the purpose is twofold;  first the HMRS medic program provides a framework of health services support to both the training and operational environment of Ranger Teams and HMRS (developed and improved upon in the time of an absence of CAP guidance and direction) 
Commanders (at whatever level) are responsible for the health/welfare and safety of their personnel; medics (or HSO's in the non HMRS world) are utilized to meet/monitor that responsiblity for the commander (and otherwise provide advice/guidance to them in the decision making process).  As common sense dictates (that whole highest level of training thing) they also serve as the focal point for providing and/or directing treatment of emergency medical care.  One thing the HMRS medic program includes is some of those public health/field sanitation/hygiene areas that aren't normal parts of EMT/nurse/physician training (not a hard thing to train people in; they just have it as part of their program).  Another part is that all of their medical personnel are trained in wilderness medical care (which does have some different thought process/ideas from regular street EMS).
The other aspect of the program is the opportunity.  It provides a career glimpse and entry point for cadets interested in the medical field not available anywhere else in formalized CAP programs.  I personally know/know of a large number of former cadets that are now civilian and military EMT's, paramedics, nurses and physicians who all got their start in HMRS's medic program.

mk

[phillybiker]

Well I can only tell you about myself. I don't wear a NESA patch because I still have to go to that school.

Excellent.

NCSA = National Cadet Special Activities, which both NESA and HMRS are are one (somewhere SARDRAGON just threw up a little in his mouth from that sentence but doesn't know why). NESA sees fit to stay within the program and simply issues
a patch worn in the NCSA area, but that is not enough for HMRS.

I do wear my ranger tab. It lets students know right away what I can sign them off for. I am a GBD but earned my GTL first. That badge is still on my uniform because I don't feel like sewing on a slightly different badge. I still have uniforms with second Lt grade on them. Because being a senior member officer in CAP with a dollar in my pocket will still just get me a cup of Coffee.

This paragraph speaks volumes regarding your acceptance of the regs and the program as a whole.  You took the time to
sew a ranger tab on, but you can't wear the proper ES qualification badge, and you seem to disdain CAP grade.

I don't think there's much else you need to say, we get it.

Well really I can't sew on the proper ES grade on any of my older uniforms as when I place any patch on my uniform I set them with fabric glue before sewing them on. Because of this, the patches can never be removed. It helps to stop the wrinkle effect you get after washing your BDU's and the uniform shrinks more than the patches do. So if I get promoted or earn another GTM level I will have to buy a new blouse and all the patches and sew them on.
I am a blue collar working guy and I try to keep my sqdn cadets active. If  I have to decide what I'm going to spend money on. ie; a new complete uniform or money to put gas in the van for a day trip for the cadets. Money for the cadets wins every time. And it always should. I don't have a ego where I must have all the stuff on my uniform and I don't care if someone thinks they outrank me. I do my job to the best of my abilities and keep the cadets safe and out of trouble.

[Eclipse]

If  I have to decide what I'm going to spend money on. ie; a new complete uniform or money to put gas in the van for a day trip for the cadets. Money for the cadets wins every time. And it always should.

Admirable and misguided.

Gas in the van, or any other expense is not your personal responsibility, especially when it allows others to abdicate theirs.

Doing so gives people an improper feeling of ownership which never ends well.

Pass the hat and fix your uniforms.

[rebowman]

Whoever mentioned earlier that Hawk graduates leave with SQTRs with completed tasks marked is WRONG.  They do not -  Hawk attendees DO NOT do GTM sign-offs.  Maybe its true if they beg.  However, they should not have to beg.

[CT074CC]

When did you go last?  I was there in 2003 last, and I got sign offs without EVER having to ask for it.  Sounds like we have had a few different experiences.  Does not mean someone is "right" or "wrong", just that different people have  fared one way or another.

[tarti]

as a staff member at hawk you need to look at the ranger grade sheets and you will see that they are in line with the sqtrs with additional items.  any and all  staff signoff on the sqtrs as well as the ranger sheets. you as a student are responsible to have the sheets and get the signoffs during the school.
the sqtrs and ranger grades are entered into e-services at the school. if any person commenting on a school and have not been there themself or have not been there in the last 5 years to see how things are being done should hold there comments.  i am sure that all schools have had good and bad reports so be your own judge and take to people who give you the correct information on a school not just rumors and hear say.

go to the school and see for your self.

[Spaceman3750]

as a staff member at hawk you need to look at the ranger grade sheets and you will see that they are in line with the sqtrs with additional items.  any and all  staff signoff on the sqtrs as well as the ranger sheets. you as a student are responsible to have the sheets and get the signoffs during the school.
the sqtrs and ranger grades are entered into e-services at the school. if any person commenting on a school and have not been there themself or have not been there in the last 5 years to see how things are being done should hold there comments.  i am sure that all schools have had good and bad reports so be your own judge and take to people who give you the correct information on a school not just rumors and hear say.

go to the school and see for your self.

Here we go...

[Eclipse]

Meh, shooting fish in a barrel gets old after awhile, even when the fish are jumping out calling after you.