Hawk vs NESA

[phillybiker]

NCRblues, Really? I mean really?
Feel free to contact me. This discussion is not for this thread.

[NCRblues]

NCRblues, Really? I mean really?
Feel free to contact me. This discussion is not for this thread.

Contact you about what?

I am asking a fair question. That person came on captalk with their unit displayed, and said "patient packaging" and movement of "patients" is widespread in CAP. He/she said they learned those skills at HAWK, and that's all fine and dandy, but i want to know when and where he/she has used those "skills". If that person is going to make those claims than he/she should be able to back the claim up with proof...plain and simple.....

I'm my 11 years of CAP service, i have yet to see a single time those "skills" were utilized by cap, and i have yet to see a ranger do something that GTM's could not. The ranger TAB means nothing to me, and many many other on this website and throughout cap.

I have consistently seen bad behavior/attitude probelms come back from HAWK, more so than any other NCSA, so why is that? Your on staff, so please explain it to me.

Please explain to me why we need GT ratings and then "ranger" ratings. Please explain what it is a ranger is certified to do that i can not do as a GTL/GBD.

Please explain why "ranger medics" have anything to offer other than a little more advanced first aid, when CAP as a whole cant even take medications from minor children at overnight activity's anymore.

I think these are fair questions.

[nesagsar]

I view ranger tabs exactly the same way as blue berets and NESA ball caps. Keep it at the activity you earned it at. All other times, follow 39-1.

[fyrfitrmedic]

I was a little bored and started reading this thread about Hawk vs. NESA and warned myself, but overall it hasn't been all that bad.  More professional than most, actually.

Well, open mouth, insert foot.  I suppose I should retract my original statement at the beginning of my post.  It looks like a bunch of [insert derogatory word here] with low self-esteem are at it again arguing over who has the coolest badge.

Why don't you guys concentrate on something important in life, like family, career, education or, here's a big one, physical fitness.  /done

+1000

[JC004]

I was a little bored and started reading this thread about Hawk vs. NESA and warned myself, but overall it hasn't been all that bad.  More professional than most, actually.

Well, open mouth, insert foot.  I suppose I should retract my original statement at the beginning of my post.  It looks like a bunch of [insert derogatory word here] with low self-esteem are at it again arguing over who has the coolest badge.

Why don't you guys concentrate on something important in life, like family, career, education or, here's a big one, physical fitness.  /done

What he said.

Tick-tock. Tick-tock. Tick-tock.

What he said.

Watch it.  There will be no bringing back this thread to start a fight over what has been done here many times and got locked many times before.

This thread has been civil.  Consider this a pre-ticking-clock.

What I said.  Consider this a ticking clock.

[capes]

capes, To answer your question about staying to the standards of the 60-3. Yes. a class on any subject is done like this. First it is taught in a class room setting. If it is a task from the 60-3 then it is taught using the guidelines in that book. Then it is demonstrated and finally it is preformed by the students. If one or more student is having a hard time with a task or they did not understand the task they will get extra one on one instruction. Quite often they might not understand why they are doing a certain task because they don't understand the "big picture" of a SAR op. Once you explain to them we do this,so IC can do that, it always clicks.
Does this answer your question/statement?

Yes, thank you.

[NC Hokie]

I am asking a fair question. That person came on captalk with their unit displayed, and said "patient packaging" and movement of "patients" is widespread in CAP. He/she said they learned those skills at HAWK, and that's all fine and dandy, but i want to know when and where he/she has used those "skills". If that person is going to make those claims than he/she should be able to back the claim up with proof...plain and simple.....

I hope that I don't regret this...

To answer your question, it may have been unwise to say that patient packaging and movement are widespread, but patient movement is a required task for ground team members (O-0502 PARTICIPATE IN A LITTER CARRY).

[husker]

Hawk is very focused on survival

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the campsite at Hawk at the bottom of a mountain in a swamp? First rule of survival is don't camp at the bottom of a hill... Makes me wonder about the quality of the training if they can manage to screw that up.

NESA takes place at the Mary Hulman-George SAR Academy on a NG base. The SAR Academy is run by IDHS and is a nice facility. I've not been to NESA but I have taken a course at the Academy and it is a very nice facility.

I knew the SAR academy was there but I didn't know NESA used it. NESA has also just completed standing up permanent CAP owned facilities on Atterbury to host other training throughout the year.

NESA uses many of the facilities on Camp Atterbury -  barrack and dining facilities in the main cantonment area, the new permanent facilities, and the Indiana Sar Academy.  The permanent facililites (The "COE") and the Sar Academy are on adjacent properties.

[Bobble]

I view ranger tabs exactly the same way as blue berets and NESA ball caps. Keep it at the activity you earned it at. All other times, follow 39-1.

This (see pic at lower right-hand corner, text in lower right-hand corner of pic):

http://www.pawingcap.com/hawk/ranger_staff_training.htm

"- Eligible for wear in all Wings"  Who knew?

[davidsinn]

I view ranger tabs exactly the same way as blue berets and NESA ball caps. Keep it at the activity you earned it at. All other times, follow 39-1.

This (see pic at lower right-hand corner, text in lower right-hand corner of pic):

http://www.pawingcap.com/hawk/ranger_staff_training.htm

"- Eligible for wear in all Wings"  Who knew?

Just because Hawk says it does not make it so. There are so many blatant uniform violations there that it's not even funny. That and it just plain looks stupid. Starched uniform? Really? That's a good way to rub something raw or over heat.

[phillybiker]

 I want you to contact me because I don't want to waste everyones time with this and I want to keep the thread on subject. You seem to be very grounded in your biased attitude of HMRS. I would like to discuss your issues on a case by case level. But not on this thread. "The Hawk Mountain attitude" concerns me and I belive it to be unjustified.
I will tell you that "patient packaging" is a GTM skill. Participate in a litter carry is on the GTM sheet. I do hope that you are not just moving around a empty litter or even worse just flopping a patient and a stretcher unsecured and walking the patient out of the woods like that. That should end that part of the argument.
Other skills that rangers are taught that GTM members are not.
Knots, very usefull and should be a GTM skill. Just for setting up a shelter, another GTM skill.
Fire building, You need the ability to heat your meals. In a disaster electricity would be out, maybe gas lines in urban areas would be out and you might have gas leaks. When and where is it safe to have a fire and what is a safe fire?
Water procurement, How to make water safe to drink. This skill is obvious.
Rope work, and I don't mean rappelling but low angle stuff for moving a stretcher or yourself up and down steep or slick terrain SAFLEY. You should not have to stop and operation if the vehicle you need to get to is 25 feet above you on a steep rise to the road. Raised roadways go on for miles and are common everywhere.
Basic survival skills.
Safety with edged tools.
Also at the end of summer school they have become more self sufficient as it is a rugged environment that they have lived in the past 9 days.
Those are some of the differences in skills.
There is also PT requirements. You can be a IC1 but if you are unable to preform the task due to health reasons you are a risk to the op and a potential casualty.
Medic program. Well I guess we should just stop teaching the masses of the world CPR or first aid. Since not everyone will use those skills. Not that the skills the students are taught in the CAP medic program would greatly benefit that student outside of CAP. They are taught real world skills that are used in fire service and EMS on a daily basis. As a senior member I would welcome a HMRS trained medic if I had a student who was showing signs of dehydration or heat exhaustion, so that they can monitor that student and treat that student and keep the rest of the class on point and learning what they came there to learn. It frees' me up to do my job and I know the medic is competent to do theirs.

[lordmonar]

NCRblues, Really? I mean really?
Feel free to contact me. This discussion is not for this thread.

Contact you about what?

I am asking a fair question. That person came on captalk with their unit displayed, and said "patient packaging" and movement of "patients" is widespread in CAP. He/she said they learned those skills at HAWK, and that's all fine and dandy, but i want to know when and where he/she has used those "skills". If that person is going to make those claims than he/she should be able to back the claim up with proof...plain and simple.....

I'm my 11 years of CAP service, i have yet to see a single time those "skills" were utilized by cap, and i have yet to see a ranger do something that GTM's could not. The ranger TAB means nothing to me, and many many other on this website and throughout cap.

I have consistently seen bad behavior/attitude probelms come back from HAWK, more so than any other NCSA, so why is that? Your on staff, so please explain it to me.

Please explain to me why we need GT ratings and then "ranger" ratings. Please explain what it is a ranger is certified to do that i can not do as a GTL/GBD.

Please explain why "ranger medics" have anything to offer other than a little more advanced first aid, when CAP as a whole cant even take medications from minor children at overnight activity's anymore.

I think these are fair questions.

I had one of my teams (real world) move a patient from the rocks where he broke his leg to the LZ that they built for the county SAR helo.

It is used.  Even if we do not use it all the time...we should know it, if for nothing else, we can assist the EMTS when they load up the patient.

We don't "need" GT rating and ranger ratings.  They are similar but different.

Seeing as ranger ratings are harder to get (that is they have more requirements, closed book test, and physical fitness test) then GT ratings.........the question may be......why aren't we adopting the ranger ratings as standard?

I don't like all the ranger bling....but don't knock their program and standards over a stupid patch and their choice of accouterments.

[HGjunkie]

I've done most of the survival/knot/medical stuff with the Boy Scouts.

On second look, I've done all of what phillybiker listed above in basic GT training and with the BSA.

[Eclipse]

I want you to contact me because I don't want to waste everyones time with this and I want to keep the thread on subject. You seem to be very grounded in your biased attitude of HMRS. I would like to discuss your issues on a case by case level. But not on this thread. "The Hawk Mountain attitude" concerns me and I belive it to be unjustified.

Nothing being said has not been said 30 times before.  You can believe whatever you like, those of us who have dealt with it know better.
There are also a few here who have experienced the issues during high-profile missions first hand and were disappointed by the situation (to say the least).

Other skills that rangers are taught that GTM members are not.

Most of what you mention is, in fact, a part of GTM training

Medic program. Well I guess we should just stop teaching the masses of the world CPR or first aid.

No, you should stop calling them Medics.  Period.
If all you are providing is First Aid and CPR, they are no more "medics" than anyone else in CAP, and if you are training them in
more, fine, you can never learn "too much", however that still does not make them "medics".

As suggested ad nauseum, the simplest way to prove HMRS' value and place in CAP is to lose the entirety of the uniform and
insignia which is not in line with 39-1, and knock off the "you found the place, so now you're elite" nonsense.  Allow the program to stand on
its own without the burden of the extra weight of non-curriculum silliness and we might be surprised at what the results are, or you might
be surprised at what you're really doing.

If your reply is, and we've heard this before, "some people would not come back if we dropped the uniform extras...", well, then you've answered
your own question.

There's always at least one senior or cadet who wants to defend the whole HMRS package, and then gets lost in their own rhetoric because for the
most part, beyond tradition, none of it is supportable.  However, I get it.  As someone who ran an encampment for 8 years, I was routinely challenged with the typical "why's" and the "what the heck are they doings" of people uninvolved and looking in from the outside.  The difference is that because
we were tight to the core curriculum, regs, and our activities meshed with the overall program, I could simply refer naysayers to an authoritative document and then ask "if there are any further questions".

NBB provides us similar "fun" with the goofy french pancake.  Another PITA, (actually, it kinda looks like a pita, and they sure smell like a gyros after being worn all day in the field!) however operationally they don't export people with a difference of opinion as to how CAP ES works. For the most part NBB does things the "CAP Way", and while you might occasionally have to correct an overzealous member about their place in the universe, their alumni interact pretty well with everyone else.

Bottom line, any National Activity which receives the visibility and funding on the level that HMRS does, supposes itself to be an "elite school" yet
does not focus on the core of the CAP ES program and procedures, while at the same time exporting behavioral programs back to home units, either
needs to accept the criticism it attracts, or make the fairly simple changes required to quell the masses.

[phillybiker]

Correct, you will learn the skills I mentioned with BSA training. But since not evertone in CAP is or has been in the BSA we teach those skills to bridge gaps that we see in the standard gtm training.
GTM ratings are a national standard. Which in my mind you must meet these minimum requirements. However, it should be left to the wing you are in to add to those skills for the climate your wing is in.
The northwest and rocky mountains have huge mountains that make Hawk mtn look like a mole hill. In the southwest you have hot arid dessert areas.
Around the gulf states  you have real swamps. With gators!
Wings need schools to teach the fine tuning skills you need for your area. But that is the purpose of a SAREX. The schools like Hawk and NESA get you going on your way. But after graduating you still have much to learn. You will never stop learning, and maybe more important practice so you don't forget what you learned (ie: knots and nav ).
Both schools are available so you have a choice. One school might be better suited to a students needs. The time the school is hosted is a factor along with the cost of going and getting there.
No student should have to worry about a biased attitude of graduating either school.
There are not enough volunteers to gripe about who goes where. And CAP is to small, under budgeted, and expensive to be a member of to get rid of any resource we have.

[phillybiker]

To elipse.
We do agree on some topics. However (and there is always a however)
None of the things I listed are on a sqtr. Part of water procurement is in heath and medical on a sqtr but I feel it needs more emphasis.
There is not a single thing on a sqtr about string,rope,twine,whatever. Knots should be a requirement on a sqtr. But can be taught locally so I'm not worried about it.
Uniforms, ahh yes. These tabs have been around for a long time. Are belts, scarves, whistle chains blingy, yes. But I don't see the point in getting rid of the tabs. They signify a level of experience. Just how there are diffrent GTM tabs. Really, they dint say anything on them. So one could argue that they might be more confusing, and they look kinda like jump wings. Be honest, they do.
But with all that being said, and it has been posted on this forum before all the ranger bling has been approved by national a few years back. The 39_1 needs a major update.
I know of no eliteism. The staff works hard for the students. CAP owns the property so we as staff are there year round doing projects to improve the grounds and just keep it from getting overgrown. None of us think we are better than anyone else. I'm sure that in person we would get along just fine.
I am not part of the HMRS medic program. But having been a EMT in Philadelphia for over 10 years I can not think of anything else to call the medics at hawk mtn.  You call for a medic you know what you are getting. First aid.

[NCRblues]

Thank you Maj. Harris, this is the first time i have EVER heard of CAP using that training.

If you notice i never said i was against that training. But, i do not believe it is "wide spread" as that person claimed it was, and i know for a fact (confirmed by his/her wing commander) that Kansas wing has not done that in the time that the current wing commander has been around.

Phillybiker, I'm not going to contact you everytime i have a problem with a "ranger", because i correct it on the spot, or send them home from the activity. I do it to anyone with a behavior problem, be it a "ranger" or a "beret" or a nesa grad.

I disagree with the attitude that is taught (maybe not be the SM's there but someone is spouting elitism's rhetoric) at hawk, and thats that. I have seen way to many people come back changed for the worse and not the better. We are going to have to agree to disagree on HAWK.

Im bowing out of this one before i say something to get me in trouble.

[Eclipse]

Uniforms, ahh yes. These tabs have been around for a long time. Are belts, scarves, whistle chains blingy, yes. But I don't see the point in getting rid of the tabs. They signify a level of experience. Just how there are diffrent GTM tabs. Really, they dint say anything on them. So one could argue that they might be more confusing, and they look kinda like jump wings. Be honest, they do.

There are 3 different GT badges, all with an objective, nationally vetted curriculum for award - Member, Leader, Branch Director. Hardly confusing, and all
directly related to the national program and our legitimate capabilities and what we are allowed to do.

But with all that being said, and it has been posted on this forum before all the ranger bling has been approved by national a few years back. The 39_1 needs a major update.

Um, no.  One sentence in a set of NEC minutes which have never been implemented or clarified is hardly "approved", which has been the ongoing argument.  I can't begin to see any need to "update 39-1" in this respect, since the HMRS insignia has no place on our uniforms.  The NCSA patch is plenty, for everyone else, but not for HMRS.

Why?

[phillybiker]

Well I can only tell you about myself. I don't wear a NESA patch because I still have to go to that school. As soon as I have the vacation time I will be going. So I am not allowed to wear that patch. I have graduated from HMRS so I wear that patch.  I do wear my ranger tab. It lets students know right away what I can sign them off for. I am a GBD but earned my GTL first. That badge is still on my uniform because I don't feel like sewing on a slightly different badge. I still have uniforms with second Lt grade on them. Because being a senior member officer in CAP with a dollar in my pocket will still just get me a cup of Coffee.
I never heard of anyone saying that if the uniforms changed they would not come back.

[HGjunkie]

Might just be the Army brat in me talking, but I hardly see a similarity between the two badges.