Hawk vs NESA

[Майор Хаткевич]

Consider this a pre-ticking-clock.

Is that when you wind it up before it starts running?

I think the factor for me, at least at this point is that Hawk is an experience, while NESA is where you go to get ES Quals done.

Pick whichever you prefer.

[JC004]

Consider this a pre-ticking-clock.

Is that when you wind it up before it starts running?
...

It is.  It is ready to tick if necessary.

[phillybiker]

 For atleast the last three years HMRS has made available to any member from CAP training for all GTM/GTL/UDF, and all other SQTR's for ground ops.
As a member of HMRS staff I will explain what happens when we do "sign offs".
During the summer school every cadet is given a binder with 2 copies of each Ranger sign off sheet up to Advanced Ranger. However they are not provided with SQTR's in this packet. That is because of how the tasks for Ranger and GTM overlap in some strange ways. What then does happen is every night the SQDN commanders use a grid matrix to mark what tasks each student has completed. That sheet then gets turned into admin who then lists the tasks in eservices.
At the end of the school you will get a packet with brand new SQTR's printed out with the tasks you have completed.
You will also get your ranger card for whatever level of ranger you have earned.

Please note this, at the end of every school during clean up I find these packets left behind in the mud on the parade field and they are wet and unreadable. Please put away your packet somewhere deep in your pack or foot locker so it goes home with you.

During weekends. If you come up for the ES or "charlie" sqdn program during a weekend, Training may be in a large group or typicly one on one. It is very complete and detailed training because of the smaller class size and can be customized for your needs on the go. (Provided it is a small group.) During those weekends I try to teach GTM skills. But by learning GTM skills you will also earn your Ranger 3rd class. A very basic rating but people seem to like to earn the rating. Normally I can finish all GTM 3 requirements in a weekend with a student starting from scratch. Even if we have to take the online GES test which you should have before you arrive. However that doesnt always happen. During these weekends the student holds on to thier SQTR. Then at the end of the weekend we will do signoffs.

I hope this explains some things as far as signoffs go.

[IC3man]

So to boil it all down:
My personal experience with Hawk was that it was extremely difficult. Had a blast, but it was tough. Ranger tabs essentially line up with GTM ratings, but they do deviate slightly. Hawk is very focused on survival and getting to a crash site as well as patient packaging.
My close friend's experience with NESA: They teach GTM ratings exclusively. They focus on more on searching for items/missing persons. More relaxed than my experience at Hawk.
I personally prefer Hawk mainly because of the environment and because I love the outdoors. You are living rough, with little to no comforts (depending on what YOU brought). The thing about Hawk is, you are literally told everyday that you are better than everybody else out there because you had the motivation to come, and are receiving some of the best training out there. I won't argue that. But it does instill a bit of cockiness in those who have completed the program. NESA does not do that, to my knowledge. If I were you, go to both.

[NCRblues]

So to boil it all down:
My personal experience with Hawk was that it was extremely difficult. Had a blast, but it was tough. Ranger tabs essentially line up with GTM ratings, but they do deviate slightly. Hawk is very focused on survival and getting to a crash site as well as patient packaging.
My close friend's experience with NESA: They teach GTM ratings exclusively. They focus on more on searching for items/missing persons. More relaxed than my experience at Hawk.
I personally prefer Hawk mainly because of the environment and because I love the outdoors. You are living rough, with little to no comforts (depending on what YOU brought). The thing about Hawk is, you are literally told everyday that you are better than everybody else out there because you had the motivation to come, and are receiving some of the best training out there. I won't argue that. But it does instill a bit of cockiness in those who have completed the program. NESA does not do that, to my knowledge. If I were you, go to both.

Funny, never have i had to "package a patient" and according to CAP rules, we as cap members, cant even do that so... what are we handing out "ranger tabs" for when they are worthless?

I also find it funny how HAWK can get away with telling cadets they are better than everyone else... I'm pretty sure if another activity like, oh lets say NBB, said this everyone would jump and scream and say "ELITISIM"... love the lack of care, maybe that's why so many of us see horrible attitudes come out of HAWK year after year

I see less and less good coming out of HAWK every year....

[capes]

For atleast the last three years HMRS has made available to any member from CAP training for all GTM/GTL/UDF, and all other SQTR's for ground ops.
As a member of HMRS staff I will explain what happens when we do "sign offs".
During the summer school every cadet is given a binder with 2 copies of each Ranger sign off sheet up to Advanced Ranger. However they are not provided with SQTR's in this packet. That is because of how the tasks for Ranger and GTM overlap in some strange ways. What then does happen is every night the SQDN commanders use a grid matrix to mark what tasks each student has completed. That sheet then gets turned into admin who then lists the tasks in eservices.

The task guide is very explicit in how the tasks are to be done.  Is the evaluation criteria for each of the tasks followed at Hawk?

[IC3man]

Funny, never have i had to "package a patient" and according to CAP rules, we as cap members, cant even do that so... what are we handing out "ranger tabs" for when they are worthless?

I also find it funny how HAWK can get away with telling cadets they are better than everyone else... I'm pretty sure if another activity like, oh lets say NBB, said this everyone would jump and scream and say "ELITISIM"... love the lack of care, maybe that's why so many of us see horrible attitudes come out of HAWK year after year

I see less and less good coming out of HAWK every year....
[/quote]
1) Patient packaging: as in, the proper transportation of a patient, and yes, we do it all the time. Moving a patient is pretty common within CAP. They just taught you a very excellent way to move a patient over rough terrain, how to clear an LZ for a chopper, etc. Things you would most likely need in wilderness search and rescue.
2) Please, don't be an [censored]. You probably have never been to Hawk. Don't pass judgement upon something until you have gone yourself.
3) People are told they are the best all the time. Heck, they even did it at my basic encampment.
4) Those horrible attitudes coming out of Hawk every year are some of the most motivated cadets you can find. They know they can ruck many miles in a day with 30, 40, sometimes even 50 lbs. on their back, and then they can set up an excellent campsite with nothing more than tarps, rope, and some matches. They horrible attitudes are those who have proven to themselves that they are capable of doing whatever they dream of. Those horrible attitudes are cadets and senior members who are confident in themselves and their abilities.
Please. Don't try to bash Hawk without really knowing about it.

[davidsinn]

Hawk is very focused on survival

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the campsite at Hawk at the bottom of a mountain in a swamp? First rule of survival is don't camp at the bottom of a hill... Makes me wonder about the quality of the training if they can manage to screw that up.

NESA takes place at the Mary Hulman-George SAR Academy on a NG base. The SAR Academy is run by IDHS and is a nice facility. I've not been to NESA but I have taken a course at the Academy and it is a very nice facility.

[Eclipse]

Those horrible attitudes are cadets and senior members who are confident in themselves and their abilities.

...are a huge PITA.

Don't encourage the swagger until you've have to deal with "rangers" who have 50 lbs of gear and not a single functional CAP ES qualification,
yet want to stand in front of the room and tell experienced members with actual real-world mission experience "how it is".

[nesagsar]

4) Those horrible attitudes coming out of Hawk every year are some of the most motivated cadets you can find. They know they can ruck many miles in a day with 30, 40, sometimes even 50 lbs. on their back, and then they can set up an excellent campsite with nothing more than tarps, rope, and some matches. They horrible attitudes are those who have proven to themselves that they are capable of doing whatever they dream of. Those horrible attitudes are cadets and senior members who are confident in themselves and their abilities.
Please. Don't try to bash Hawk without really knowing about it.

Funny that every NESA GT Basic graduate can do exactly the same thing but dont have the rep for the bad attitude.

[phillybiker]

capes, To answer your question about staying to the standards of the 60-3. Yes. a class on any subject is done like this. First it is taught in a class room setting. If it is a task from the 60-3 then it is taught using the guidelines in that book. Then it is demonstrated and finally it is preformed by the students. If one or more student is having a hard time with a task or they did not understand the task they will get extra one on one instruction. Quite often they might not understand why they are doing a certain task because they don't understand the "big picture" of a SAR op. Once you explain to them we do this,so IC can do that, it always clicks.
The other times you may have problems is during navigation classes. They are long and boring to cadets and they tend to drift off. So Navigation is constantly reviewed.
However I am talking about first time students. Advanced students have been doing SAREX's at their home wings/units and normally are proficient. You always get a student who has been somewhere else(and no I don't mean NESA, It can happen at any SAREX) and has been signed off as a GTM1 who can't find a location using UTM or Lat and Long. But then you know who that student is and you work with them till they know it.
Does this answer your question/statement?
Also as a member of Hawks staff I can't wait till I have 3 weeks of vacation time so I can go to NESA and take classes.

[PA Guy]

. Those horrible attitudes are cadets and senior members who are confident in themselves and their abilities.

There is huge difference between confidence and arrogance.

[phillybiker]

Hawk is very focused on survival

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the campsite at Hawk at the bottom of a mountain in a swamp? First rule of survival is don't camp at the bottom of a hill... Makes me wonder about the quality of the training if they can manage to screw that up.

NESA takes place at the Mary Hulman-George SAR Academy on a NG base. The SAR Academy is run by IDHS and is a nice facility. I've not been to NESA but I have taken a course at the Academy and it is a very nice facility.

Its the property that we own. If you are willing to donate a few hundred acres of land for the school that is not in a swamp we will gladly accept it. The Hawk mountain website has links on where you can make your donation and thank you.

[davidsinn]

Hawk is very focused on survival

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the campsite at Hawk at the bottom of a mountain in a swamp? First rule of survival is don't camp at the bottom of a hill... Makes me wonder about the quality of the training if they can manage to screw that up.

NESA takes place at the Mary Hulman-George SAR Academy on a NG base. The SAR Academy is run by IDHS and is a nice facility. I've not been to NESA but I have taken a course at the Academy and it is a very nice facility.

Its the property that we own. If you are willing to donate a few hundred acres of land for the school that is not in a swamp we will gladly accept it. The Hawk mountain website has links on where you can make your donation and thank you.

I live in Indiana...

[Spaceman3750]

Hawk is very focused on survival

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the campsite at Hawk at the bottom of a mountain in a swamp? First rule of survival is don't camp at the bottom of a hill... Makes me wonder about the quality of the training if they can manage to screw that up.

NESA takes place at the Mary Hulman-George SAR Academy on a NG base. The SAR Academy is run by IDHS and is a nice facility. I've not been to NESA but I have taken a course at the Academy and it is a very nice facility.

I knew the SAR academy was there but I didn't know NESA used it. NESA has also just completed standing up permanent CAP owned facilities on Atterbury to host other training throughout the year.

[phillybiker]

Hawk is very focused on survival

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the campsite at Hawk at the bottom of a mountain in a swamp? First rule of survival is don't camp at the bottom of a hill... Makes me wonder about the quality of the training if they can manage to screw that up.

NESA takes place at the Mary Hulman-George SAR Academy on a NG base. The SAR Academy is run by IDHS and is a nice facility. I've not been to NESA but I have taken a course at the Academy and it is a very nice facility.

Its the property that we own. If you are willing to donate a few hundred acres of land for the school that is not in a swamp we will gladly accept it. The Hawk mountain website has links on where you can make your donation and thank you.

I live in Indiana...

Thats one of the great things about America, you can buy property in any state. So once again I thank you in advance for your future donation.

[Stonewall]

In my opionion and observation, especially on the cadet student side of things, HMRS is more about leanring the lessons of followership, teamwork and leadership; using the medium of Emergency Services/Wilderness survival.  Very conveniently these are wonderfull attributes to bring to the ES arena.  Especially for the basic year its almost more of a practical leadership lab in some ways than an ES school.  The true ES school portion seems to come more so after you have mastered the the leadership labratory part of it.

I was a little bored and started reading this thread about Hawk vs. NESA and warned myself, but overall it hasn't been all that bad.  More professional than most, actually.

I know Mark personally, although it's been years, but he always has solid and valid feedback about Hawk that doesn't come off as defensive or accusatory in nature.  Good job, brother.

I think Mark's above statement is spot on.

I was commandant of NGSAR's Advance Course a long time ago, before it was called NESA.  And I've attended Hawk's winter course, simply to meet up with some friends and to get a taste of Hawk.  And again, my experience supports Mark's statement above.

I have personally experienced several arrogant, cocky and otherwise unwarranted "attitudes" coming from Hawk graduates, but if I were a cadet today, in 2011, I would probably choose Hawk over NESA. 

I don't disagree with CAP going to the National SAR standards, but I hate the fact that we had to.  I loved ES when ES was a CAP program and not something with such oversight and 5,000 boxes to check.  I also enjoyed CAP ES (specifically ground pounding) before we got GTM badges.  Back when you did it to DO IT, not to earn a badge or some national rating.  But that's me being old fashion.

HMRS is more about leanring the lessons of followership, teamwork and leadership; using the medium of Emergency Services/Wilderness survival. 

<--- This is absolutely what Hawk is and should be about.  But I challenge you and anyone else going to Hawk.  Do so and come back WITHOUT wearing any of the Hawk bling (tabs, belts, whistles, hats).  Go to Hawk, have fun, learn about survival and learn about yourself.  NESA is an emergency services academy set up more like an encampment, with barracks, chow halls, bathrooms, etc.  Hawk is on the side of a Mountain with minimal luxuries.  In fact, your biggest luxury is your ruck sack.

NESA and Hawk are your two choices for ES activities.  If you want a more physically challenging activity with a solid military atmosphere, you may want to consider PJOC or CCOC.

[NCRblues]

Funny, never have i had to "package a patient" and according to CAP rules, we as cap members, cant even do that so... what are we handing out "ranger tabs" for when they are worthless?

I also find it funny how HAWK can get away with telling cadets they are better than everyone else... I'm pretty sure if another activity like, oh lets say NBB, said this everyone would jump and scream and say "ELITISIM"... love the lack of care, maybe that's why so many of us see horrible attitudes come out of HAWK year after year

I see less and less good coming out of HAWK every year....

1) Patient packaging: as in, the proper transportation of a patient, and yes, we do it all the time. Moving a patient is pretty common within CAP. They just taught you a very excellent way to move a patient over rough terrain, how to clear an LZ for a chopper, etc. Things you would most likely need in wilderness search and rescue.
2) Please, don't be an [censored]. You probably have never been to Hawk. Don't pass judgement upon something until you have gone yourself.
3) People are told they are the best all the time. Heck, they even did it at my basic encampment.
4) Those horrible attitudes coming out of Hawk every year are some of the most motivated cadets you can find. They know they can ruck many miles in a day with 30, 40, sometimes even 50 lbs. on their back, and then they can set up an excellent campsite with nothing more than tarps, rope, and some matches. They horrible attitudes are those who have proven to themselves that they are capable of doing whatever they dream of. Those horrible attitudes are cadets and senior members who are confident in themselves and their abilities.
Please. Don't try to bash Hawk without really knowing about it.
[/quote]


Can you cite to me one time you, in Kansas, have ever moved a "patient"?

I just got off the phone with Col. Aye, your wing commander, and she had no idea that you were moving "patents" all the time in Kansas. Amazed her even, i would say. I travel through Kansas a lot, and know several of the squadrons and their commanders, again, i have never heard of CAP "patient packaging" and moving them before.

I can judge hawk all i want to. I have not gone, nor will i go, until things are changed in that program. Way to many people come home from that activity thinking they really are better than everyone else, and that is flat out unacceptable in CAP. No one in CAP is better than anyone else, no matter what activity they have PAID TO ATTEND.

[Stonewall]

I was a little bored and started reading this thread about Hawk vs. NESA and warned myself, but overall it hasn't been all that bad.  More professional than most, actually.

Well, open mouth, insert foot.  I suppose I should retract my original statement at the beginning of my post.  It looks like a bunch of [insert derogatory word here] with low self-esteem are at it again arguing over who has the coolest badge.

Why don't you guys concentrate on something important in life, like family, career, education or, here's a big one, physical fitness.  /done

[SarDragon]

Tick-tock. Tick-tock. Tick-tock.