Hawk vs NESA

[Senior]

I have not been to either school, but if I were to spend the money I would go to NESA.  NESA does give you exposure to real training that is directly applicable to our ES mission.   I would avoid PA Rangers because of the negative image/reputation it has as a program. 

I wonder too if the instructors aren't qualified to sign off GTM task just as Eclipse stated.

After you go to NESA then apply for PJOC and try for CCOC, those will test you.
Good luck.  Go to schools/activities to learn and have fun.  I had a great time at
PJOC and APJOC.

[elipod]

The 'rangers' that signed me off, did have all the qualifications (including SET) to sign me off. Why? because I asked. They just did not display any desire, or willingness to cooperate with GTM ratings.

[FW]

Hawk and NESA are two very different activities.  HMRS is basically a wilderness encampment teaching field operations, navigation, map reading/orientation, etc.  NESA is a more general school geared to ground and flight crew training for SAR/DR missions. NESA is held at a NG base and, HMRS is held in the woods where you sleep, eat and learn all in the same place.
Both activities are recognized as NCSA's.  Both are required to meet national's standard for NCSA's and both will qualify you for GTM ratings.  As Colgan pointed out, you can't get a ranger grade until you have a GTM/GTL rating first.

Ranger tabs are not required for CAP ES however, IMO, they are good skills to have and, the school is a great experience for those who like a more "primitive" experience.  There is a reason why hundreds show up every year.

NESA is a great school and has great support from the Indiana National Guard.  The facilities were recently renovated and, the training is first rate.

PJOC is something else entirely...and, I haven't heard anything negative about it since CAP shut it down for a year because of poor leadership.

[elipod]

Ahh well, Hawk is issuing 'Ranger Grades' without the appropriate GTM ratings sir. I got issued my Ranger third class and I had NO GTM ratings at the time. Several of my cadets have Ranger third class ratings, but still no GTM ratings.

What do you think about that?

[NCRblues]

Ahh well, Hawk is issuing 'Ranger Grades' without the appropriate GTM ratings sir. I got issued my Ranger third class and I had NO GTM ratings at the time. Several of my cadets have Ranger third class ratings, but still no GTM ratings.

What do you think about that?

The black PAWG vans are pulling up outside his house.... 

[octavian]

Ahh well, Hawk is issuing 'Ranger Grades' without the appropriate GTM ratings sir. I got issued my Ranger third class and I had NO GTM ratings at the time. Several of my cadets have Ranger third class ratings, but still no GTM ratings.

What do you think about that?

For Advanced Ranger you need GTL, GBD trainee, for R3-R2 you don't need any GTM rating.  If you don't want the ranger grade just bring your GTM SQTRs and get those signed off.  For as often as my unit goes to Hawk, we have never had any problems getting staff to sign off on SQTRs.  I could care less about ranger grade, like I tell my cadets, ranger grade won't get you out on a mission. 

[SarDragon]

Ahh well, Hawk is issuing 'Ranger Grades' without the appropriate GTM ratings sir. I got issued my Ranger third class and I had NO GTM ratings at the time. Several of my cadets have Ranger third class ratings, but still no GTM ratings.

What do you think about that?

The black orange PAWG vans are pulling up outside his house.... 

LMFTFY!

[JC004]

Ahh well, Hawk is issuing 'Ranger Grades' without the appropriate GTM ratings sir. I got issued my Ranger third class and I had NO GTM ratings at the time. Several of my cadets have Ranger third class ratings, but still no GTM ratings.

What do you think about that?

Why do you not read the references provided to you?

http://www.pawingcap.com/hawk/forms/RangerFirstClassTestingSheetMar2007.pdf

It is required beginning at R-1, so naturally you could be an R-3 without having GTM.  R-3 has pretty much always been sort of a "Trainee Ranger" so to speak.  Not directly like, but kind of like getting your GES before moving on.  I don't remember what I did when because it has been a decade since I did that R-3 thing, but I read the references to check my information before I made any statements.

Ahh well, Hawk is issuing 'Ranger Grades' without the appropriate GTM ratings sir. I got issued my Ranger third class and I had NO GTM ratings at the time. Several of my cadets have Ranger third class ratings, but still no GTM ratings.

What do you think about that?

The black orange PAWG vans are pulling up outside his house.... 

LMFTFY!

The new vans were announced in 2009 on the website.  People should have known about them by now.

See here:

[elipod]

If you don't want the ranger grade just bring your GTM SQTRs and get those signed off.  For as often as my unit goes to Hawk, we have never had any problems getting staff to sign off on SQTRs.  I could care less about ranger grade, like I tell my cadets, ranger grade won't get you out on a mission.

All I can say, is you have had tremendous luck. And true, Ranger grade is nothing on a mission, and it is nothing outside of PAWG.

And JC004, I'm deeply sorry I haven't read all the references, haha.  But, thank you for pointing that out. I was merely referring to what FW had said about not being able to have ranger grades without having a GTM grade. 

I have been enlightened! 

[thatonekid]

Just to clraify:
Should I print out SQTR's for the stuff they can help qualify me for and bring them to hawk?
and they dont do BCUT's at hawk do they?

[elipod]

Sometimes they hold a BCUT training weekend.

But, Yes. Take the SQTR that you are training for, I think it would be GTM3 in your case.

Just make sure you get time with your staff to have you evaluated.

[thatonekid]

Thank you sir.

[CT074CC]

I went to Hawk when I was a cadet.  This notion that HMRS doesn't care about GT qualifications is nothing but false.  We did our Ranger training and our GT training all together.  In fact, I had my staff sign me off as I did the tasks.  In addition, on graduation, I received a packet with all the GT tasks I had done with their names and code numbers, with the CAPID's of SET/trainer AND the mission numbers.

I just think some people may have had a bad experience with a specific squadron at HMRS, but that does not reflect the school's policy.

[sarmed1]

The problem with HMRS and GTM qual is that HMRS can not "complete" your SQTR, it still requires your squadron to process it thru.  That why you are given a paper sign off SQTR at the end of the school; its you and your squadrons responsability to complete it once you return home.  It is my understandig that NESA has approval authority to approve the qualification for any member regardless of home unit assignment.  HMRS students are "signed off" on GTM requirement for the purpose of completion of the Ranger grade if the SQTR is complete at the school; not necsisarily cleared theu E-services.

In my opionion and observation, especially on the cadet student side of things, HMRS is more about leanring the lessons of followership, teamwork and leadership; using the medium of Emergency Services/Wilderness survival.  Very conveniently these are wonderfull attributes to bring to the ES arena.  Especially for the basic year its almost more of a practical leadership lab in some ways than an ES school.  The true ES school portion seems to come more so after you have mastered the the leadership labratory part of it.

mk

[BGNightfall]

You know, this particular discussion seems to be the least polarized regarding HMRS of any I've seen on CT.  Certainly the most frank regarding the training standards of HMRS, its staff, and how it relates to actual ES qualification.  I must admit.... I'm impressed. 

BZ CAPTalk!

[elipod]

The problem with HMRS and GTM qual is that HMRS can not "complete" your SQTR, it still requires your squadron to process it thru.  That why you are given a paper sign off SQTR at the end of the school; its you and your squadrons responsability to complete it once you return home.

Obviously...

I have been to three winter Hawks. My cadets have also been. I am the ONLY one (out of around ten cadets from my squadron) who has received sign-offs, and only because I begged for it.

Its quite possible that the summer hawk program is more on top of their game.

[sarmed1]

Winter and Summer schools are two completely differant animals.  The specific objective of the winter school is to introduce and prepare you for cold weather operations. 

Interestingly enough there has been a new addition to the during the month training weekends (previously staff training only) An emergency services specific training flight was added; just to work on GTM and Ranger qualifications, seperate from the staff training weekend topics.

mk

[RVT]

I have been to three winter Hawks. My cadets have also been. I am the ONLY one (out of around ten cadets from my squadron) who has received sign-offs, and only because I begged for it.

I don't know if its related to this thread or not - but I just looked at the Hawk Mountain website and now it mentions in several places that you can earn ES ratings there.  I don't remember it being so prominent last time I looked - or even mentioned at all.

[FO Jenkins]

In my opinion in dealing with ppl from Hawk, many will carry themselves as if they are better then everyone else. They develope an ego and rarely will take input from another source

        Also in my experience, NESA is more of a school setting, alot of class rooms then some field time, but i was in comms not GTM so that course could be diff.

[JC004]

Watch it.  There will be no bringing back this thread to start a fight over what has been done here many times and got locked many times before.

This thread has been civil.  Consider this a pre-ticking-clock.