National Blue Beret Questions

[Rocketguy]

I have been selected as a primary for NBB. Right now i am working on my GTM 1-3. by the time NBB rolls around I will be fully qualified in that aspect. i saw on one of the forums where there will be a lot of UDF. will GTM cover all of that? or will I need to find additional training? this will be my first airshow,
(yeah, sad, i know) so can anyone tell me if there is any time for cadets to tour, or will I be working the entire time? does anyone have any suggestions as to what extra to bring i.e. anything they don't put on the packing list? thanks

[NCRblues]

All the training you need will be done up at Oshkosh.

Yes you will be working or training 90% of the time, though you do get some time off to go out and explore the worlds largest fly-in.

Make sure you are in good shape, and bring well broken in boots, because you do a lot of walking and marching.

The packing list is very good, bring what it says.

[RickFranz]

Sun Screen and a good attitude is very helpful.

[tatumrd]

I have never been to a NCSA. So this will be my first year at NBB. I will be attending as a Lt Col possibly a full Colonel. What can i expect as far as leadership goes?

[jeders]

I have been selected as a primary for NBB. Right now i am working on my GTM 1-3. by the time NBB rolls around I will be fully qualified in that aspect. i saw on one of the forums where there will be a lot of UDF. will GTM cover all of that? or will I need to find additional training? this will be my first airshow,
(yeah, sad, i know) so can anyone tell me if there is any time for cadets to tour, or will I be working the entire time? does anyone have any suggestions as to what extra to bring i.e. anything they don't put on the packing list? thanks

First, and I tell everyone this no matter what, if you have GTM3, UDF is functionally useless. That said, you will get all the training you need at the beginning of NBB before AirVenture opens up.

You will get plenty of time to explore the airshow and spend money. You will also get flight night, where the flight members go out for a few hours one night during the activity.

Sun Screen and a good attitude is very helpful.

Make sure you are in good shape, and bring well broken in boots, because you do a lot of walking and marching.

These items cannot be stressed enough, especially the boots and sun screen. When I went as a TAC, I actually had one cadet get a sunburn on the inside of his ear, but not the outside.

I have never been to a NCSA. So this will be my first year at NBB. I will be attending as a Lt Col possibly a full Colonel. What can i expect as far as leadership goes?

That depends on a lot of things. But remember this, just because you have more collar candy than 95% of the cadets there, doesn't mean you'll be in charge of anything. Most of the cadet leadership is chosen by the TACs (or it was when I went) and the TACs do there hardest to choose the best person for each job.

Most importantly, for both of you, have fun and enjoy it.

[tatumrd]

Awesome. Thanks for you're response.

When will we get our packing list?

[onetimeoneplace]

Awesome. Thanks for you're response.

When will we get our packing list?

You should get the list, along with other forms for NBB, around mid-April.

[Shotgun]

When do they usually start contacting the Senior Members?

It's my understanding that we are not necessarily "slotted", but that we are contacted individually byyy the Activity leaders.

IIRC, Last year Blue Beret sent out an email fairly late reaching out to Senior staff. (I think it was sometime in April.) Is that the usual case?

[NCRblues]

When do they usually start contacting the Senior Members?

It's my understanding that we are not necessarily "slotted", but that we are contacted individually byyy the Activity leaders.

IIRC, Last year Blue Beret sent out an email fairly late reaching out to Senior staff. (I think it was sometime in April.) Is that the usual case?

Yes, its normal for SM staff at NBB to get much later notice than the cadets. Its hard to nail down the number of cadets the fire marshal and the EAA will allow us to bring from year to year, so its better to wait and slot SM's later, instead of telling someone yes you can go and then having to back track later on down the road.

[ES Ninja]

Hey y'all, I'm an NBB 2010 graduate, and was a flight commander. So, here's from my experience:

will GTM cover all of that? or will I need to find additional training?  thanks

No worries, everything you need to know and don't, you will be taught.

does anyone have any suggestions as to what extra to bring i.e. anything they don't put on the packing list?

If you have your 24 hour gear, BRING ALL OF IT. Last year most of us only brought our UDF gear (because that's what was on the packing list), and when we went to do pack inspection we got in trouble. Our TAC had to make a run to Walmart for a few of our flight members. One thing not on the list you need is an orange vest. RRING ONE! Last year they ran out. Also, last year it rained a ton (we refer to it as the Splosh-kosh Airshow) so I would advise bringing a mil-spec poncho (it keeps you drier than the cheap kind). Also, a second pair of boots is totally worth it, if you have more than one pair. Finally, bring a couple razors just for shaving your beret! Then when you get it, you won't have to wait for your TAC to grab some before you can get started.

I have never been to a NCSA. So this will be my first year at NBB. I will be attending as a Lt Col possibly a full Colonel. What can i expect as far as leadership goes?

Good question. As far as cadet leadership goes, rank means nothing. You will be dealing with mostly officers, and you will be in a no-salute zone nearly 24-7. ES Quals don't mean nearly as much as at a SAREX, either, because by the end of NBB you all have quite a list.There will be two "leadership structures," if you will. The first is staff-wise. TACs select their flight commanders and flight leaders (officer equivalent of flight sergeant) the day before the activity starts. These two cadets will be in charge of your flight. Cadet staff position has nothing to do with rank, so if you don't get staff, expect to follow a lower-ranking cadet for the activity. The second structure is the RBs, or Returning Berets. Those who have already completed NBB have special privileges at the activity (word of caution: stay off the green!) that other cadets, regardless of rank, do not. Also, although they may not be staff, they will be respected by their staff, and by other cadets.

Final words: don't let anything get your spirits down (including security shifts on the flight line at 0300 in pouring rain)! NBB is what you make it. Be prepared to work hard, laugh a lot, walk a ton, beat the Boyscouts at the annual CAP-Boyscout volleyball competition, and go to bed exhausted but satisfied each night. When you leave, you'll have some amazing friends, and you'll be part of the NBB cadre - an elite group you can't understand until you're a beret. Have fun, and good luck!

[Bluelakes 13]

... and you'll be part of the NBB cadre - an elite group you can't understand until you're a beret.

Well, that should start some interesting commentary.  Cadet, put on your kevlar.

[Eclipse]

((*sigh*))

[ES Ninja]

... and you'll be part of the NBB cadre - an elite group you can't understand until you're a beret.

Well, that should start some interesting commentary.  Cadet, put on your kevlar.

After noticing the mindset displayed in the Blue Beret-related posts on this website, allow me to apologize for my poor choice in phraseology (I did not mean to start a controversy) and exchange the word "elite" for one more correct:

You'll be part of the NBB cadre - a CAP minority of well-trained, seasoned UDF and FLM qualified cadets who have been through two tough weeks at the largest airshow in the world together - and you can't understand the beret mentality until you're a beret.

One final word of advice to all NBB primaries and graduates: never forget the Blue Beret creed - live by it always.

I am a Blue Beret. I am what my country and Civil Air Patrol expect me to be: the best of American youth, and an example of leadership for today and the future.
Never will I fail that trust.
Therefore, I pledge to perform to the highest degree of professionalism. My dedication to the service of others, rendered with respect and humility, is the outward sign of this pledge.
I am a leader who exhibits the highest level of integrity and am dedicated to the well being of my comrades and community.
I understand that to wear a Blue Beret is a great honor.
Therefore, I forsake not:
My Country;
My Mission;
My Comrades;
My Duty.
I am a Blue Beret.
FOLLOW ME!

[Eclipse]

Cadet Larson,

If all the NBB people exhibited your totality of understanding and attitude, we'd have a lot less heartburn about it.

[N Harmon]

never forget the Blue Beret creed

That isn't the same creed from when I was a cadet at NBB.

[ES Ninja]

A lot of the RB's said it changed somewhat from 2009, too. That's what it was last summer, though. Hopefully it won't be diluted this year.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

A lot of the RB's said it changed somewhat from 2009, too. That's what it was last summer, though. Hopefully it won't be diluted this year.

All that I know is that a lot of it came from the Infantryman's Creed.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

The portions that are bold and underlined are the parts that are the same as in the NBB creed.

I am the Infantry.
I am my country's strength in war,
   her deterrent in peace.
I am the heart of the fight-
   wherever, whenever.
I carry America's faith and honor
   against her enemies.
I am the Queen of Battle.

I am what my country expects me to be-
   the best trained soldier in the world.
In the race for victory,
   I am swift, determined, and courageous,
   armed with a fierce will to win.

Never will I fail my country's trust.
Always I fight on-
   through the foe,
   to the objective,
   to triumph over all.
If necessary, I fight to my death.

By my steadfast courage,
   I have won 200 years of freedom.
I yield not-
   to weakness,
   to hunger,
   to cowardice,
   to fatigue,
   to superior odds,
   for I am mentally tough,physically strong,
   and morally straight.

I forsake not-
   my country,
   my mission,
   my comrades,
   my sacred duty.

I am relentless.
I am always there,
   now and forever.

I AM THE INFANTRY!
FOLLOW ME!


Now, I am not mad or upset about it or anything. I just thought that it was pretty funny that they took a combat creed and used it for NBB, if anything, I would think that they would use the Ranger creed for it, but then again they probably would use that for the Hawk Mountain creed. Honestly I think it is pretty cool that CAP is trying to give programs that bit of professional and hard corps push for cadets. It helps to instill a bit more camaraderie and pride in what we do. I like it.

[Eclipse]

It should be the Rifleman's Creed...


This is my L-Per, etc., etc.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

It should be the Rifleman's Creed...


This is my L-Per, etc., etc.

I am Gunnery Sergeant Hartman, your senior drill instructor. From now on you will speak only when spoken to, and the first and the last word out of your filthy sewers will be "Sir". Do you maggots understand that?

[tatumrd]

I'm pretty excited about NBB. You mentioned a mil-spec poncho. Will a goretex jacket work?

Also would you recommend I invest in a camel back? I've been wanting one for awhile and I don't really like canteens.

[NCRblues]

I'm pretty excited about NBB. You mentioned a mil-spec poncho. Will a goretex jacket work?

Also would you recommend I invest in a camel back? I've been wanting one for awhile and I don't really like canteens.

A goretex is ok, but water will get through it eventually, so bring both, and problem solved. When your on a 3 hour flight line in the rain, because the EAA still wants IFR to land and taxi past you, water will get in everything you have, so bring both.

A camel pack is nice. The major problem we find up at NBB is that first time cadets buy a new big camel pack, but forget that there ES gear and safety vest cant work together. So make sure your ES gear will fit with the camel pack and then go for it. BUT...just in case something happens to the bladder on the camel pack, bring your canteens anyway...

[tatumrd]

Ok good stuff. Where can I get a mil-spec poncho?

[jimmydeanno]

I was just going to suggest the Hock Shop, but...

You can find them a bunch of places, like:

Brigade Quartermaster

Vermont's Barre

Hassayampasurplus

And about 385,000 other locations. 

[tatumrd]

Alright. Thanks for all the advice. Now about getting there...

[NCRblues]

Alright. Thanks for all the advice. Now about getting there...

Your on your own about getting there. As a cadet both times i went, i got a flight that changed aircraft in Chicago, and went into Appleton. (easiest way for cadets if you cant hitch a ride in a cap van)

As a SM, i drove....

Always odd to DRIVE to the worlds largest fly-in....

[WESSginger]

Fly there if you can. The drive from Maxwell to NBB for me was like 14-16 hours. Gas was going to cost just as much as a plane ticket was.

[tatumrd]

Yeah I'll have to figure that one out. I'll have to look at airline prices. Although I do know my squadron commander flies up every year anyways.

[ES Ninja]

Ok good stuff. Where can I get a mil-spec poncho?

Check out Ebay (www.ebay.com) and your local military surplus store. I just got myself a new mil-spec poncho on Ebay a couple weeks ago. Come to think of it, I've gotten nearly all my uniform stuff and ES gear from Ebay... Oh, and definitely bring that coat too, because it can get pretty cold at night.

[Shotgun]

... and you'll be part of the NBB cadre - an elite group you can't understand until you're a beret.

Well, that should start some interesting commentary.  Cadet, put on your kevlar.

After noticing the mindset displayed in the Blue Beret-related posts on this website, allow me to apologize for my poor choice in phraseology (I did not mean to start a controversy) and exchange the word "elite" for one more correct:

You'll be part of the NBB cadre - a CAP minority of well-trained, seasoned UDF and FLM qualified cadets who have been through two tough weeks at the largest airshow in the world together - and you can't understand the beret mentality until you're a beret.

Well Said!  Having pride in being part of an experience that only a relatively few will share is a good thing.

NBB, NCC, COS, PJOC, NESA, Hawk Mountin and even encampment are all great activities and the esprit de corps that develops between those that attend and work together benefits both the individual and the organization.

I'm hoping to attend NBB as a Senior Staff member this year and am looking forward to earning my beret!

[ES Ninja]

I'm hoping to attend NBB as a Senior Staff member this year and am looking forward to earning my beret!

I'm sure you'll have a blast too, sir. What position are you going for?

[NCRblues]

I'm hoping to attend NBB as a Senior Staff member this year and am looking forward to earning my beret!
[/quote]

Senior member slotting is out today, so if you got selected you should know. 

[Eeyore]

Hopefully, I'll see you there. I was slotted for Senior Staff, based on the email, I believe I will be a flight TAC.

[Cool Mace]

Hopefully, I'll see you there. I was slotted for Senior Staff, based on the email, I believe I will be a flight TAC.

Dangit! I have to spend 2 weeks with you, Eric AND Piper!? Maybe I won't go anymore.

Nah! Congrats sir! Can't wait to go!

[RickFranz]

Hopefully, I'll see you there. I was slotted for Senior Staff, based on the email, I believe I will be a flight TAC.

Look forward to meeting you.  This will be my fifth year there, if you have any questions please feel free to ask.

[Shotgun]

I'm hoping to attend NBB as a Senior Staff member this year and am looking forward to earning my beret!

Senior member slotting is out today, so if you got selected you should know. 
[/quote]

Well . . . I'm still listed as an alternate for both of the activities I applied to as a Senior Member.

Again, am I wrong in my understanding that SM are not "slotted" in the same manner as cadets and that we are contacted individually by the organizers?

That's what happened last year when I applied to NBB (which I had to decline) and COS (which I attended).

I have gotten an email for SUPT-FC at Columbus AFB based on my NCSA application, but nothing regarding NBB.

Edit:
I also ran some of the NCSA activity reports available to me in eServices and see that it does indeed look like that they have "slotted" the staff for NBB and I'm in the Alternate List. I'm disappointed . . . especially since I was the SM who was "green light" for their choice of activity in my Wing. (And looking at the Activity Director report I was one of 5 adults "green lit" for NBB)

I must admit I'm feeling a little disappointed in not being selected for any of the NCSA's a applied to.

[NCRblues]

You are correct that the director of NBB would have contacted you, and yes the staff has been slotted. I am truly sorry you did not make it.

Let me explain something about the CAP job at Oshkosh. Back in '05 i was invited to sit in on the planing meetings before the event took place with the then NBB commander Col. Glasgow. It was made abundantly clear many many times that the EAA, FAA and NTSB will only allow so many um "newbies" to TAC flights up at Oshkosh.

They want a certain percentage to return every year. It gets very complicated with the legal ramifications out on the flight line. The planing section must be very very careful not to put a new TAC and his/her flight on flight line north or south when one of the "mass arrivals" comes in. The EAA and FAA wants people who have done it before so the 2500 or so (insert G.A. aircraft here) can land on one runway and exit the area safe.

NBB is an odd thing. We as CAP really have little control over our people. If the FAA says no we want someone with at least 3 times doing it, than guess what? We put someone with 3 times or we don't get asked back.

Now that being said, we try and rotate out the amount of people returning vs. newbies. I would say 65% of the Staff this year is new, which IMHO of course, is going to make life very hard for those of us that are returning. If you have any questions you can PM and i will try my best to explain them.

My advice is to try every year for a spot, and it never helps to make your face known around your wing HQ, because that's who gets the phone calls when we ask " who would be really good at..." 

[Rogovin]

This is a gold mine of information... now if only i had a full packing list.  Did/does anyone get/have one they could send me?  Me and a few buddies who are going are missing that information.

-Rogovin

[NCRblues]

This is a gold mine of information... now if only i had a full packing list.  Did/does anyone get/have one they could send me?  Me and a few buddies who are going are missing that information.

-Rogovin

packing list's will be sent out very soon. Be patient , my young grasshopper 

[WESSginger]

Hey y'all, I'm an NBB 2010 graduate, and was a flight commander. So, here's from my experience:

will GTM cover all of that? or will I need to find additional training?  thanks

No worries, everything you need to know and don't, you will be taught.

does anyone have any suggestions as to what extra to bring i.e. anything they don't put on the packing list?

If you have your 24 hour gear, BRING ALL OF IT. Last year most of us only brought our UDF gear (because that's what was on the packing list), and when we went to do pack inspection we got in trouble. Our TAC had to make a run to Walmart for a few of our flight members. One thing not on the list you need is an orange vest. RRING ONE! Last year they ran out. Also, last year it rained a ton (we refer to it as the Splosh-kosh Airshow) so I would advise bringing a mil-spec poncho (it keeps you drier than the cheap kind). Also, a second pair of boots is totally worth it, if you have more than one pair. Finally, bring a couple razors just for shaving your beret! Then when you get it, you won't have to wait for your TAC to grab some before you can get started.

I have never been to a NCSA. So this will be my first year at NBB. I will be attending as a Lt Col possibly a full Colonel. What can i expect as far as leadership goes?

Good question. As far as cadet leadership goes, rank means nothing. You will be dealing with mostly officers, and you will be in a no-salute zone nearly 24-7. ES Quals don't mean nearly as much as at a SAREX, either, because by the end of NBB you all have quite a list.There will be two "leadership structures," if you will. The first is staff-wise. TACs select their flight commanders and flight leaders (officer equivalent of flight sergeant) the day before the activity starts. These two cadets will be in charge of your flight. Cadet staff position has nothing to do with rank, so if you don't get staff, expect to follow a lower-ranking cadet for the activity. The second structure is the RBs, or Returning Berets. Those who have already completed NBB have special privileges at the activity (word of caution: stay off the green!) that other cadets, regardless of rank, do not. Also, although they may not be staff, they will be respected by their staff, and by other cadets.

Final words: don't let anything get your spirits down (including security shifts on the flight line at 0300 in pouring rain)! NBB is what you make it. Be prepared to work hard, laugh a lot, walk a ton, beat the Boyscouts at the annual CAP-Boyscout volleyball competition, and go to bed exhausted but satisfied each night. When you leave, you'll have some amazing friends, and you'll be part of the NBB cadre - an elite group you can't understand until you're a beret. Have fun, and good luck!

Good memories. I remeber how much we got along the first few day :p and now look at how good we get along!!!!

[JROB]

This is a gold mine of information... now if only i had a full packing list.  Did/does anyone get/have one they could send me?  Me and a few buddies who are going are missing that information.

-Rogovin

You're so righ this is a Gold mine of information. I will be attending Blue Beret as a TAC. I think this may be the most fun i've had in CAP

[ES Ninja]

Hey y'all, I'm an NBB 2010 graduate, and was a flight commander. So, here's from my experience:

will GTM cover all of that? or will I need to find additional training?  thanks

No worries, everything you need to know and don't, you will be taught.

does anyone have any suggestions as to what extra to bring i.e. anything they don't put on the packing list?

If you have your 24 hour gear, BRING ALL OF IT. Last year most of us only brought our UDF gear (because that's what was on the packing list), and when we went to do pack inspection we got in trouble. Our TAC had to make a run to Walmart for a few of our flight members. One thing not on the list you need is an orange vest. RRING ONE! Last year they ran out. Also, last year it rained a ton (we refer to it as the Splosh-kosh Airshow) so I would advise bringing a mil-spec poncho (it keeps you drier than the cheap kind). Also, a second pair of boots is totally worth it, if you have more than one pair. Finally, bring a couple razors just for shaving your beret! Then when you get it, you won't have to wait for your TAC to grab some before you can get started.

I have never been to a NCSA. So this will be my first year at NBB. I will be attending as a Lt Col possibly a full Colonel. What can i expect as far as leadership goes?

Good question. As far as cadet leadership goes, rank means nothing. You will be dealing with mostly officers, and you will be in a no-salute zone nearly 24-7. ES Quals don't mean nearly as much as at a SAREX, either, because by the end of NBB you all have quite a list.There will be two "leadership structures," if you will. The first is staff-wise. TACs select their flight commanders and flight leaders (officer equivalent of flight sergeant) the day before the activity starts. These two cadets will be in charge of your flight. Cadet staff position has nothing to do with rank, so if you don't get staff, expect to follow a lower-ranking cadet for the activity. The second structure is the RBs, or Returning Berets. Those who have already completed NBB have special privileges at the activity (word of caution: stay off the green!) that other cadets, regardless of rank, do not. Also, although they may not be staff, they will be respected by their staff, and by other cadets.

Final words: don't let anything get your spirits down (including security shifts on the flight line at 0300 in pouring rain)! NBB is what you make it. Be prepared to work hard, laugh a lot, walk a ton, beat the Boyscouts at the annual CAP-Boyscout volleyball competition, and go to bed exhausted but satisfied each night. When you leave, you'll have some amazing friends, and you'll be part of the NBB cadre - an elite group you can't understand until you're a beret. Have fun, and good luck!

Good memories. I remeber how much we got along the first few day :p and now look at how good we get along!!!!

I try NOT to remember how well we got along the first few days :-P

Haha seriously though, good times. Have fun at COS this summer! Wish I could be there.

[WESSginger]

Hey y'all, I'm an NBB 2010 graduate, and was a flight commander. So, here's from my experience:

will GTM cover all of that? or will I need to find additional training?  thanks

No worries, everything you need to know and don't, you will be taught.

does anyone have any suggestions as to what extra to bring i.e. anything they don't put on the packing list?

If you have your 24 hour gear, BRING ALL OF IT. Last year most of us only brought our UDF gear (because that's what was on the packing list), and when we went to do pack inspection we got in trouble. Our TAC had to make a run to Walmart for a few of our flight members. One thing not on the list you need is an orange vest. RRING ONE! Last year they ran out. Also, last year it rained a ton (we refer to it as the Splosh-kosh Airshow) so I would advise bringing a mil-spec poncho (it keeps you drier than the cheap kind). Also, a second pair of boots is totally worth it, if you have more than one pair. Finally, bring a couple razors just for shaving your beret! Then when you get it, you won't have to wait for your TAC to grab some before you can get started.

I have never been to a NCSA. So this will be my first year at NBB. I will be attending as a Lt Col possibly a full Colonel. What can i expect as far as leadership goes?

Good question. As far as cadet leadership goes, rank means nothing. You will be dealing with mostly officers, and you will be in a no-salute zone nearly 24-7. ES Quals don't mean nearly as much as at a SAREX, either, because by the end of NBB you all have quite a list.There will be two "leadership structures," if you will. The first is staff-wise. TACs select their flight commanders and flight leaders (officer equivalent of flight sergeant) the day before the activity starts. These two cadets will be in charge of your flight. Cadet staff position has nothing to do with rank, so if you don't get staff, expect to follow a lower-ranking cadet for the activity. The second structure is the RBs, or Returning Berets. Those who have already completed NBB have special privileges at the activity (word of caution: stay off the green!) that other cadets, regardless of rank, do not. Also, although they may not be staff, they will be respected by their staff, and by other cadets.

Final words: don't let anything get your spirits down (including security shifts on the flight line at 0300 in pouring rain)! NBB is what you make it. Be prepared to work hard, laugh a lot, walk a ton, beat the Boyscouts at the annual CAP-Boyscout volleyball competition, and go to bed exhausted but satisfied each night. When you leave, you'll have some amazing friends, and you'll be part of the NBB cadre - an elite group you can't understand until you're a beret. Have fun, and good luck!

Good memories. I remeber how much we got along the first few day :p and now look at how good we get along!!!!

I try NOT to remember how well we got along the first few days :-P

Haha seriously though, good times. Have fun at COS this summer! Wish I could be there.

Hahaha yeah I know. We where both a little head strong. I was a lot more you. Thanks. I hope you guys have a great time in England!

[RC007]

Oshkosh will be one of the best weeks of your life guaranteed. Of course I went not with NBB,  but with my friends campin out. You'll still have a great time.

[Rogovin]

Approaching the end of April, and i still dont have all of the paperwork (that was supposed to be sent out in MID-April.)  Not that i dont trust staff, but this is appearently unsusal.

>.<

-Rogovin

[NCRblues]

Approaching the end of April, and i still don't have all of the paperwork (that was supposed to be sent out in MID-April.)  Not that i dont trust staff, but this is appearently unsusal.

>.<

-Rogovin

It is a little unusual, but you will get the paperwork in time. You still have all of may, June, and half of July to turn it in. 

Remember, this is CAP, a volunteer organization, and the hard working SM who are making beret happen, still have jobs and family.

[Rogovin]

I have great respect for the Senior Members who spend countless hours of their valuable time, but i know of several people who have hit up every contact they could find to get/hear about if/when paperwork was coming out.  However, none of them got so much as a single reply.  I'm not criticizing anyone, but half the paperwork was put up on the NCSA page on the website, with no mention of when the rest is to be expected.  We are essentially deaf here, and using past years as an idea of what happened when, it seems that something is out of place this year.  Nothing bad, just unusual.  I trust the staff implicitly, but perhaps a "you will receive the paperwork no later than (insert date here) would put many minds at ease."

-Rogovin

[SouthernSAR]

...but half the paperwork was put up on the NCSA page on the website..."

Could you please point me in the direction of which website this is, or where to find this? The only website I could find with any references to paperwork was the national CAP site, and that info was useless to me at this time.

Thanks,
     SouthernSAR


EDIT: Nvm, I'm dumb. I just found it. *facepalm*

[NCRblues]

I have great respect for the Senior Members who spend countless hours of their valuable time, but i know of several people who have hit up every contact they could find to get/hear about if/when paperwork was coming out.  However, none of them got so much as a single reply.  I'm not criticizing anyone, but half the paperwork was put up on the NCSA page on the website, with no mention of when the rest is to be expected.  We are essentially deaf here, and using past years as an idea of what happened when, it seems that something is out of place this year.  Nothing bad, just unusual.  I trust the staff implicitly, but perhaps a "you will receive the paperwork no later than (insert date here) would put many minds at ease."

-Rogovin

This year we have a change in leadership at beret, as well as a change in how things are selected or get done.

Don't worry, it will be sent out in plenty of time.

Everything is up to the activity director. It is his call on everything. Its all new and we are all trying to adapt.

Simply put, stand by.

[Rogovin]

Yessir.  I have no doubt Lt Col. Peace will get things done well.  But that is good to know why there is a delay.  Will you be there this year, NCRBlues?

-Rogovin

[NCRblues]

Yessir.  I have no doubt Lt Col. Peace will get things done well.  But that is good to know why there is a delay.  Will you be there this year, NCRBlues?

-Rogovin

Baring any major natural disasters/ WW 3/ or lack of a job, i will be attending for my 6th time. 

[Rogovin]

With all due respect, #'s 1 and 3 might be a problem in todays world, sir.   
-Rogovin

[VPI18]

So, after being alternated last year, and again this year, I suddenly got an e-mail today offering me a slot a NBB. Needless to say, I jumped on the opportunity, and only a few hours later, I am now officially going to NBB. This leaves me with several questions:

1. How does staff selection work?

2. The packing list says I may use a Camelbak. Do I still need the LC-2 suspenders and pistol belt for some reason I cannot think of?

3. Is there any additional equipment that should be brought that is not listed on the 2011 list (other than a reflective vest)?

[RickFranz]

So, after being alternated last year, and again this year, I suddenly got an e-mail today offering me a slot a NBB. Needless to say, I jumped on the opportunity, and only a few hours later, I am now officially going to NBB. This leaves me with several questions:

1. How does staff selection work?

2. The packing list says I may use a Camelbak. Do I still need the LC-2 suspenders and pistol belt for some reason I cannot think of?

3. Is there any additional equipment that should be brought that is not listed on the 2011 list (other than a reflective vest)?

Maybe I can help.
1.  A large number of people apply for this and other activities, once they get slotted for another activity say IACE they drop going to NBB.  The staff then starts going through the list to see who can go. 

2.  The Camelbaks are nice you can carry a lot of water with you.  You still will be carrying other items such as a poncho and a length of yellow rope etc...

3.  If you have the items on the list you should be set.

Hope you have a good time up there this year.

[RC007]

I have not been to Oshkosh since 09, because of a few constraints. I'll guarantee you will have a good time, I can't say too much for the CAP side, but it's an awesome airshow. The people are real friendly, and nice. I'm goin to SUPTFC instead of NBB this year, but I'll try to be there next year.

[Nathan]

1. How does staff selection work?

Lt Col Franz interpreted this question as if you were a senior, which may or may not be right (I don't spend enough time on these boards to recognize everyone by username yet...).

But in case you are a cadet, or any cadets have a question about the cadet-side of staff selection, then based on my rather dated experience (2004), it depends on what you're interested in. The cadet executive staff has likely already been selected ahead of time. The cadet flight commanders and flight leaders (or whatever the substitute for flight sergeant is) are selected by the TAC officers within the first day or so.

When I was there, everyone who was interested in serving as a cadet flight leader of some sort went and interviewed with every TAC officer. The TACS then selected who they wanted to serve in the first and second flight command positions. Simple as that.

And FYI, the influence of cadet rank on likelihood of being selected as staff is completely dependent on the TACs. The year I was there, we had a C/CMSgt as the flight leader in charge of a flight full of C/Officers. Since NBB tends to get higher-ranking cadet applicants, it's pretty common for subordinate ranks to be placed in charge of superior ranks.

At least, that's how it was in 2004. It could be completely different now.

[Eclipse]

And FYI, the influence of cadet rank on likelihood of being selected as staff is completely dependent on the TACs. The year I was there, we had a C/CMSgt as the flight leader in charge of a flight full of C/Officers. Since NBB tends to get higher-ranking cadet applicants, it's pretty common for subordinate ranks to be placed in charge of superior ranks.

The TAC Officers do a cattle call for line staff and NCO's are in charge of officers?

Another piece of the puzzle...

[NCRblues]

And FYI, the influence of cadet rank on likelihood of being selected as staff is completely dependent on the TACs. The year I was there, we had a C/CMSgt as the flight leader in charge of a flight full of C/Officers. Since NBB tends to get higher-ranking cadet applicants, it's pretty common for subordinate ranks to be placed in charge of superior ranks.

The TAC Officers do a cattle call for line staff and NCO's are in charge of officers?

Another piece of the puzzle...

It is not a cattle call eclipse...

In years past, Cadets wishing to apply for cadet staff (that is flight commander and flight leader) must show up a day before the main cadet corp, and interview before the 12 TAC officers. They are called in one at a time, and asked questions. Cadet grade is not brought into the equation.

Since the age restriction for participation in NBB is 16 and above, we normally get only officers, with some random higher ranking NCOs mixed in. Yes, sometimes a cadet chief is placed in the flight commander position above cadet officers. It is made clear, that cadet grade is to be respected by everyone, but just because your a c/col does not mean you automatically get a flight commander slot. Because of the vast amount of knowledge that cadets and new Sm's are forced to absorb, preference for flight staff positions normally lean towards cadets that are returning.

This year we are trying something a little different. The interview process took up a lot of time, so the TACs are picking flight staff before arrival at NBB this year.

[UWONGO2]

We had a member recently join who a few years ago was a cadet and attended NBB. This new member was excited to get a uniform put together and excitedly mentioned wearing a beret. I sorta killed the mood when I said they weren't allowed by and regulation or ICL that I was aware of, except at the activity itself. I was provided a passionate defense for wearing the beret, including how the member's former wing commander with another wing wore a beret all the time, but I said until I heard differently from our wing commander, no pancakes.

To the new member's credit, instead of getting into a big huff the member instead brought to our next meeting some minutes from a national board meeting where the board appears to approve the beret for BDU and BBDU wear. Again I brought the mood down when I pointed out the follow-up action was to obtain approval from the Air Force to wear the beret with BDUs and to update the appropriate regulations. I asked if that approval was obtained or had any regulations were updated. I'm clearly no fun, but it was agreed neither of these two actions occurred.

At the next meeting after that (yes, there is a trend here), I was provided with an email exchange with Ms. Parker from NHQ. In it she states the beret is authorized for wear after the NBB activity and offered to answer any questions from a commander who wanted additional information. Mine did.

From: "Parker, Susie"
Date: 2011
Subject: RE: Submission from Civil Air Patrol (Contact Us)

The blue beret is authorized for wear after the activity now.  The May 2008 NEC confirmed this policy.  Unfortunately it didn't make it into the Uniform change letters and now we're in the middle of major uniform review so we're not issuing any other letters.  I'd be happy to provide information to any commander that has a question concerning the wear.  Keep in mind, commanders still have the authority to determine what uniform can be worn at their meetings/events so a commander could certainly prescribe headgear that does not include the beret.

It is difficult to keep up with all the changes and we hope to have a better system soon.  If I can help with anything else please let me know.

--------

From: My SQ/CC
Sent: 2011
To: Parker, Susie

I am a Unit Commander so I'll take you up on your offer to provide the supporting documentation from the May 2008 NEC (or elsewhere) that authorizes the wear of the Blue Beret and any limitations/restrictions/conditions.

I will also run this by our Wing Commander, as I feel that he would be the one to authorize this or set any conditions on when it is worn or not worn.

Thanks for your help.

Squadron Commander

--------

From: Parker, Susie
Sent: 2011
To: SQ/CC
Subject: RE: Submission from Civil Air Patrol (Contact Us)

Attached is a copy of the May 2008 minutes that should answer your questions.  See page 21.

--------

From: SQ/CC
Sent: 2011
To: 'Parker, Susie'
Subject: RE: Submission from Civil Air Patrol (Contact Us)

So now that I've had time to digest Pages 21-24, it states on Page 24 that the only uniform approved for IMMEDIATE wear of the "identified uniform items" (including the Blue Beret) was the CAP Blue Uniform (as shown below)

THE AMENDED MOTION CARRIED
FOLLOW-ON ACTION: Implementation of immediate wear of identified uniform items on
CAP blue field uniform, notification to the field, and change to CAPM 39-1, CAP Uniform
Manual. Also, NHQ staff request Air Force approval to wear identified uniform items on Air
Force-style uniforms.

Was Air Force approval ever obtained for wear on the Air Force style uniforms?  I don't see it included in any of the four CAP/CC Letters on the pubs page under CAPM 39-1.

Thanks again for your help!

--------

From: Parker, Susie [mailto:SPARKER@capnhq.gov]
Sent: 2011
To: SQ/CC
Subject: RE: Submission from Civil Air Patrol (Contact Us)

CAP already had permission to wear the blue beret with the AF style uniform so it wasn't an issue.

--------

From: SQ/CC
Sent: 2011
To: Parker, Susie
Subject: RE: Submission from Civil Air Patrol (Contact Us)

Thanks.

--------

From: Parker, Susie [mailto:SPARKER@capnhq.gov]
Sent: 2011
To: SQ/CC
Subject: RE: Submission from Civil Air Patrol (Contact Us)

The only change to the blue beret was the hat device so it wasn't an issue---sorry for all the confusion.

Neither my SQ/CC or I understand would Ms. Parker was referencing at the end, we weren't asking about a hat device (perhaps she meant to email that to someone else). Throughly confused by the issue, my SQ/CC gave up. My opinion is that we never asked the Air Force for approval, either because nobody got around to it, or it was assumed that because they were ok with it at Oshkosh, they're ok with it nationwide. For the past couple of months we have tried to get an opinion from the wing commander, but he hasn't responded either way (clearly he has more important items to deal with, so we weren't surprised).

Doing some searching here, I noticed Eclipse, someone who clearly knows CAP inside and out, said this:

The KB is not, in and of itself, regulatory, and in more than a few cases has been shown to be incorrect.
In most cases it just quotes and shortcuts to existing regulations, so it's not being regulatory in and of itself, only quoting other pubs.

The challenge comes when a staffer writes a subjective opinion and posts it as fact.  NHQ staffers, while possibly sitting right next to
the person with the authority, or being in the meeting where the issue was discussed, or even being privy to the printing of the
reg that changes things, do not in and of of themselves have authority to make policy of changes our regs, so that leaves
room for people to argue about the regulatory nature of the resource.

So what most people do is use it as support for a subjective decision, or ignore it as not authoritative when they disagree.

Frankly, once the KB says something that is further backed by Suzy Parker, that is good enough for me, regardless of whether I personally agree.

So I'm a little unsure how to proceed. The new member will stick with us, beret or no beret, but I don't want to disallow something NHQ appears to say is OK.

Does anyone have anything more definitive on this? With NBB coming up, we'll be having a few cadets returning with goofy headgear that they'll want to wear and I'd like to be ready.

[JC004]

We had a member recently join who a few years ago was a cadet and attended NBB. This new member was excited to get a uniform put together and excitedly mentioned wearing a beret. I sorta killed the mood when I said they weren't allowed by and regulation or ICL that I was aware of, except at the activity itself. I was provided a passionate defense for wearing the beret, including how the member's former wing commander with another wing wore a beret all the time, but I said until I heard differently from our wing commander, no pancakes.

To the new member's credit, instead of getting into a big huff the member instead brought to our next meeting some minutes from a national board meeting where the board appears to approve the beret for BDU and BBDU wear. Again I brought the mood down when I pointed out the follow-up action was to obtain approval from the Air Force to wear the beret with BDUs and to update the appropriate regulations. I asked if that approval was obtained or had any regulations were updated. I'm clearly no fun, but it was agreed neither of these two actions occurred.

At the next meeting after that (yes, there is a trend here), I was provided with an email exchange with Ms. Parker from NHQ. In it she states the beret is authorized for wear after the NBB activity and offered to answer any questions from a commander who wanted additional information. Mine did.

From: "Parker, Susie"
Date: 2011
Subject: RE: Submission from Civil Air Patrol (Contact Us)

The blue beret is authorized for wear after the activity now.  The May 2008 NEC confirmed this policy.  Unfortunately it didn’t make it into the Uniform change letters and now we’re in the middle of major uniform review so we’re not issuing any other letters.  I’d be happy to provide information to any commander that has a question concerning the wear.  Keep in mind, commanders still have the authority to determine what uniform can be worn at their meetings/events so a commander could certainly prescribe headgear that does not include the beret.

It is difficult to keep up with all the changes and we hope to have a better system soon.  If I can help with anything else please let me know.

--------

From: My SQ/CC
Sent: 2011
To: Parker, Susie

I am a Unit Commander so I’ll take you up on your offer to provide the supporting documentation from the May 2008 NEC (or elsewhere) that authorizes the wear of the Blue Beret and any limitations/restrictions/conditions.

I will also run this by our Wing Commander, as I feel that he would be the one to authorize this or set any conditions on when it is worn or not worn.

Thanks for your help.

Squadron Commander

--------

From: Parker, Susie
Sent: 2011
To: SQ/CC
Subject: RE: Submission from Civil Air Patrol (Contact Us)

Attached is a copy of the May 2008 minutes that should answer your questions.  See page 21.

--------

From: SQ/CC
Sent: 2011
To: 'Parker, Susie'
Subject: RE: Submission from Civil Air Patrol (Contact Us)

So now that I’ve had time to digest Pages 21-24, it states on Page 24 that the only uniform approved for IMMEDIATE wear of the “identified uniform items” (including the Blue Beret) was the CAP Blue Uniform (as shown below)

THE AMENDED MOTION CARRIED
FOLLOW-ON ACTION: Implementation of immediate wear of identified uniform items on
CAP blue field uniform, notification to the field, and change to CAPM 39-1, CAP Uniform
Manual. Also, NHQ staff request Air Force approval to wear identified uniform items on Air
Force-style uniforms.

Was Air Force approval ever obtained for wear on the Air Force style uniforms?  I don’t see it included in any of the four CAP/CC Letters on the pubs page under CAPM 39-1.

Thanks again for your help!

--------

From: Parker, Susie [mailto:SPARKER@capnhq.gov]
Sent: 2011
To: SQ/CC
Subject: RE: Submission from Civil Air Patrol (Contact Us)

CAP already had permission to wear the blue beret with the AF style uniform so it wasn’t an issue.

--------

From: SQ/CC
Sent: 2011
To: Parker, Susie
Subject: RE: Submission from Civil Air Patrol (Contact Us)

Thanks.

--------

From: Parker, Susie [mailto:SPARKER@capnhq.gov]
Sent: 2011
To: SQ/CC
Subject: RE: Submission from Civil Air Patrol (Contact Us)

The only change to the blue beret was the hat device so it wasn’t an issue---sorry for all the confusion.

Neither my SQ/CC or I understand would Ms. Parker was referencing at the end, we weren't asking about a hat device (perhaps she meant to email that to someone else). Throughly confused by the issue, my SQ/CC gave up. My opinion is that we never asked the Air Force for approval, either because nobody got around to it, or it was assumed that because they were ok with it at Oshkosh, they're ok with it nationwide. For the past couple of months we have tried to get an opinion from the wing commander, but he hasn't responded either way (clearly he has more important items to deal with, so we weren't surprised).

Doing some searching here, I noticed Eclipse, someone who clearly knows CAP inside and out, said this:

The KB is not, in and of itself, regulatory, and in more than a few cases has been shown to be incorrect.
In most cases it just quotes and shortcuts to existing regulations, so it's not being regulatory in and of itself, only quoting other pubs.

The challenge comes when a staffer writes a subjective opinion and posts it as fact.  NHQ staffers, while possibly sitting right next to
the person with the authority, or being in the meeting where the issue was discussed, or even being privy to the printing of the
reg that changes things, do not in and of of themselves have authority to make policy of changes our regs, so that leaves
room for people to argue about the regulatory nature of the resource.

So what most people do is use it as support for a subjective decision, or ignore it as not authoritative when they disagree.

Frankly, once the KB says something that is further backed by Suzy Parker, that is good enough for me, regardless of whether I personally agree.

So I'm a little unsure how to proceed. The new member will stick with us, beret or no beret, but I don't want to disallow something NHQ appears to say is OK.

Does anyone have anything more definitive on this? With NBB coming up, we'll be having a few cadets returning with goofy headgear that they'll want to wear and I'd like to be ready.

This seems really unnecessarily complicated.  The NEC approved the expanded wear of it and it is already an item that is approved by the Air Force for wear with the CAP uniform.  The Air Force doesn't really do "it can be worn this time and not that time."  The Air Force just says up and down whether an item can be worn with their uniform.  It sounds more like you are looking for a way to find it unauthorized.  If the NEC has approved it and the Wing CC hasn't limited it, why are you asking the Wing CC?  It's not one of the things that has to be specifically authorized by the Wing CC for wear like the service cap (by cadets).

[N Harmon]

This seems really unnecessarily complicated.  The NEC approved the expanded wear of it and it is already an item that is approved by the Air Force for wear with the CAP uniform.

Agreed. It was CAP, not USAF, who rescinded the authorization to wear the beret. As such, CAP can reinstate it without re-asking USAF for permission, especially considering it was still authorized for wear, though in very limited circumstances (at NBB).

[JC004]

This seems really unnecessarily complicated.  The NEC approved the expanded wear of it and it is already an item that is approved by the Air Force for wear with the CAP uniform.

Agreed. It was CAP, not USAF, who rescinded the authorization to wear the beret. As such, CAP can reinstate it without re-asking USAF for permission, especially considering it was still authorized for wear, though in very limited circumstances (at NBB).

I am against even more complexity in CAP.  That's one reason I support FW's efforts for National CC.  We need sooooooo much less complexity.  We need the NB to always be thinking about reducing complexity when they do stuff like uniform changes (or anything, really).  I think the NB proposal could have been more clearly defined here, but it's still a pretty straightforward situation.