2011 HMRS

[titanII]

May I remind you the SAR is only a part of Emergency Services, not the entire thing.

Well put
That's kinda what I'm trying to say. SAR is a part of ES which itself is a only one of three missions. I would blame NHQ's and/or CAP's lack of interest in ground SAR on the fact that they really do have a     load of stuff on their collective plate. I'm not happy with it either, but...   

[arajca]

I agree there should be a region-level ES school in each Region, but NESA should be the model, not HMRS.
The curriculum should be wholly-CAP allowed practice, and aircrew should be a significant part of the schedule.

Actually I dont think that anyone school should be the "model"...... Develop a school that meets the needs/interests of its participants (or potential participants)  take best practices from where you can find them and roll them into a program that works best for you.....

Just make sure that you follow the standard for whatever you advertise the activity as.

mk

Region academies should be teaching to the CAP standards. Ignoring those because the participants aren't interested in them is a waste of everyone's time and resources. The with adding items that will never be used. Training for GT, AC, and MB has been standardized to the NESA cirriculum for the most part.

[arajca]

May I remind you the SAR is only a part of Emergency Services, not the entire thing.

Well put
That's kinda what I'm trying to say. SAR is a part of ES which itself is a only one of three missions. I would blame NHQ's and/or CAP's lack of interest in ground SAR on the fact that they really do have a     load of stuff on their collective plate. I'm not happy with it either, but...   

There is alot more that just SAR that we could be performing, if some standards and training could be developed and implemented. I'm not saying we should be taking over everyone's domain, but bringing 50 or 100 folks trained in ICS and teamwork and used to working in a command structure, is a useful tool for any emergency manager.

[FW]

While SAR is an important and historical part of our ES mission, it is taking a smaller part of our effort as time goes by.  However, DR and HS missions are increasing.  And, our DR efforts  have been shining of late (Deepwater Horizon required the assets of 4 regions.  This year's weather related DR efforts are still in play after 3 months)
We need to train for what we are asked to do.  We need to train to play well with others and, we need to train to standards which allow us to perform in the real world.  Understanding and working with the ICS and all the primary organizations that will involve us should be part of that standard. 

[sarmed1]

I agree there should be a region-level ES school in each Region, but NESA should be the model, not HMRS.
The curriculum should be wholly-CAP allowed practice, and aircrew should be a significant part of the schedule.

Actually I dont think that anyone school should be the "model"...... Develop a school that meets the needs/interests of its participants (or potential participants)  take best practices from where you can find them and roll them into a program that works best for you.....

Just make sure that you follow the standard for whatever you advertise the activity as.

mk

Region academies should be teaching to the CAP standards. Ignoring those because the participants aren't interested in them is a waste of everyone's time and resources. The with adding items that will never be used. Training for GT, AC, and MB has been standardized to the NESA cirriculum for the most part.

Thats not what I said;  if you offer the school as NESA or HMRS equivilent you need to follow their respective standards.  If you offer it as BFE SAR School; set the school up however you wish.  If GT qualification is part of that, teach/test using the task guide...if Ranger qualification is your plan, use their teathing/testing guide. 
The problem with "cookie cuttering" a school is that the CAP mission/needs vary from region to region (or even state to state)...as has been mentioned here before ...what applies to PAWG team does not nescesarily applie to FLWG teams and visa versa; if you eliminate the rope work from the Ranger portion for FL, and put in swamp rescue; its no longer the same school......and shouldnt be billed as the same.....however swamp rescue may be a needed requirement for FL, and as such it should be part of a school that FLWG teaches.

mk

[Eclipse]

Thats not what I said;  if you offer the school as NESA or HMRS equivilent you need to follow their respective standards.  If you offer it as BFE SAR School; set the school up however you wish.  If GT qualification is part of that, teach/test using the task guide...if Ranger qualification is your plan, use their teathing/testing guide. 
The problem with "cookie cuttering" a school is that the CAP mission/needs vary from region to region (or even state to state)...as has been mentioned here before ...what applies to PAWG team does not nescesarily applie to FLWG teams and visa versa; if you eliminate the rope work from the Ranger portion for FL, and put in swamp rescue; its no longer the same school......and shouldnt be billed as the same.....however swamp rescue may be a needed requirement for FL, and as such it should be part of a school that FLWG teaches.

You start with the standard school and then work towards adding the specialization later.

The local specialization, or anything which exceeds normal CAP capabilities or authorization should not be the focus.

[JC004]

...what applies to PAWG team does not nescesarily applie to FLWG teams and visa versa...

That is true.  Orange Explosion, the uniform here, doesn't blend in with things much here.  In Florida, you start losing your members in a grove... 

[Bluelakes 13]

I would be interested in seeing what type of funds NBB got, and when they got it. National told us we are not getting "start up" money this year for NBB. In 2009 we had to use SM's to dig our own trench line to run a new cable, because "we have no money". NBB cant get enough golf carts to complete the massive mission we have during the airshow week because "we don't have enough money".

The NCC participation pins and T-shirts were cut this year due to cost.  We did get the NCC coin, and Gen. Courter did hand out a special coin that she procured with her own money (not CAP funds).  Rumors are next year that even the coin may be gone.

So how much does ~150 berets cost? 

[sarmed1]

You start with the standard school and then work towards adding the specialization later.

The local specialization, or anything which exceeds normal CAP capabilities or authorization should not be the focus.

We dont often agree on points, especially those involving HMRS, however I totally agree here. I wish I could get that point across on the mountain a little more.  I have a hard time seeing the logic in trying to teach basic GTM skills and then before there is even sim miniscule amount of skill mastery someone is trying to ram the "specialized skill" down the students throat.  I see that as a major short coming and one of the primary generators of the complaints from those outside of HMRS regarding the capability/skill level of the graduates.

mk

[NCRblues]

I would be interested in seeing what type of funds NBB got, and when they got it. National told us we are not getting "start up" money this year for NBB. In 2009 we had to use SM's to dig our own trench line to run a new cable, because "we have no money". NBB cant get enough golf carts to complete the massive mission we have during the airshow week because "we don't have enough money".

The NCC participation pins and T-shirts were cut this year due to cost.  We did get the NCC coin, and Gen. Courter did hand out a special coin that she procured with her own money (not CAP funds).  Rumors are next year that even the coin may be gone.

So how much does ~150 berets cost?

I have been a supporter of doing away with the beret (shocking i know, a supporter of NBB not supporting the actual floppy hats) to increase our general funds for years now.

Notice i never said anything about the cost of berets, because i believe the mission that NBB does comes first... well before ANY bling at all. I am not a supporter of doing away with the NBB coins, we have to give the cadets something.

[davidsinn]

I would be interested in seeing what type of funds NBB got, and when they got it. National told us we are not getting "start up" money this year for NBB. In 2009 we had to use SM's to dig our own trench line to run a new cable, because "we have no money". NBB cant get enough golf carts to complete the massive mission we have during the airshow week because "we don't have enough money".

The NCC participation pins and T-shirts were cut this year due to cost.  We did get the NCC coin, and Gen. Courter did hand out a special coin that she procured with her own money (not CAP funds).  Rumors are next year that even the coin may be gone.

So how much does ~150 berets cost?

I have been a supporter of doing away with the beret (shocking i know, a supporter of NBB not supporting the actual floppy hats) to increase our general funds for years now.

Notice i never said anything about the cost of berets, because i believe the mission that NBB does comes first... well before ANY bling at all. I am not a supporter of doing away with the NBB coins, we have to give the cadets something.

Why not just tack on the cost of the coins and beanies to the attendance fee like everything else?

[titanII]

we have to give the cadets something.

I don't disagree (everybody loves free stuff ). But just to play the devil's advocate: Why do we have to give them something?

[NCRblues]

I would be interested in seeing what type of funds NBB got, and when they got it. National told us we are not getting "start up" money this year for NBB. In 2009 we had to use SM's to dig our own trench line to run a new cable, because "we have no money". NBB cant get enough golf carts to complete the massive mission we have during the airshow week because "we don't have enough money".

The NCC participation pins and T-shirts were cut this year due to cost.  We did get the NCC coin, and Gen. Courter did hand out a special coin that she procured with her own money (not CAP funds).  Rumors are next year that even the coin may be gone.

So how much does ~150 berets cost?

I have been a supporter of doing away with the beret (shocking i know, a supporter of NBB not supporting the actual floppy hats) to increase our general funds for years now.

Notice i never said anything about the cost of berets, because i believe the mission that NBB does comes first... well before ANY bling at all. I am not a supporter of doing away with the NBB coins, we have to give the cadets something.

Why not just tack on the cost of the coins and beanies to the attendance fee like everything else?

We did, 300 and sum change for a cadet to attend. I think that price is wrong, given the state of the economy. We have had more cadets drop this year, than several past years worth combined. The same answer over and over again was it was because of the cost. 300 to CAP, then the parents had to find an aircraft ticket and fly the kids into Appleton, a little regional airport.... very very expensive....

Like i said, we can only ask VOLUNTEERS to pay for so much before they stop coming....

[NCRblues]

we have to give the cadets something.

I don't disagree (everybody loves free stuff ). But just to play the devil's advocate: Why do we have to give them something?

i guess we don't have to give them anything.... but cadets like things that show they attended. So, technical, no...we don't have to give them anything, but i think at least a COIN would be nice, don't you?

[titanII]

i guess we don't have to give them anything.... but cadets like things that show they attended. So, technical, no...we don't have to give them anything, but i think at least a COIN would be nice, don't you?

Yes, I agree. Though I think the "free stuff" money could be spent on something the cadets like better. What about a t-shirt? It's a way for the cadets to show that they've done this activity. It's not like they could go around shoving their coin in people's faces  .

The only drawback is that some "shopping around" would have to be done, to find a cost-effective yet quality t-shirt.

[fyrfitrmedic]

You start with the standard school and then work towards adding the specialization later.

The local specialization, or anything which exceeds normal CAP capabilities or authorization should not be the focus.

We dont often agree on points, especially those involving HMRS, however I totally agree here. I wish I could get that point across on the mountain a little more.  I have a hard time seeing the logic in trying to teach basic GTM skills and then before there is even sim miniscule amount of skill mastery someone is trying to ram the "specialized skill" down the students throat.  I see that as a major short coming and one of the primary generators of the complaints from those outside of HMRS regarding the capability/skill level of the graduates.

mk

+1

I've argued this point elsewhere more than a time or two over the past couple of decades or so... like talking to a wall sometimes. I've run into the same shortcoming outside CAP as well; too much emphasis on "gee whiz" stuff before mastery of the basics.

[titanII]

too much emphasis on "gee whiz" stuff before mastery of the basics.

I think this is because more people are attracted to "learn to be a [Filter Subversion]" than "learn your average GTM skills". The organizations (in CAP and outside CAP) are trying to get as many participants as they can, and they know that the "gee-whiz stuff" will get them more participants.
Or at least that's what I suspect

[Eclipse]

too much emphasis on "gee whiz" stuff before mastery of the basics.

I think this is because more people are attracted to "learn to be a [Filter Subversion]" than "learn your average GTM skills". The organizations (in CAP and outside CAP) are trying to get as many participants as they can, and they know that the "gee-whiz stuff" will get them more participants.
Or at least that's what I suspect

You're correct - given the choice, no one would go to a police academy or fire fighter training.  Most people just want to grab the
Ringers Lactate and the Biophone and run out the door and call Rampart.

That's why it is incumbent on the organization to insure the baseline training get emphasized, and anyone who really "gets it" knows that this would make the "extra" training all the more "elite", because they have to go the extra mile to get there.  This is especially important with cadets, who are
always reaching to look "special", and will gravitate towards things that are shiny.

It serves no purpose to train a member in things they can't use, tell them they are "elite", then tell them they can't go on missions because they
aren't qualified.

[jimmydeanno]

RE: Have to give the cadets something...

I thought that was the whole point of the NCSA Ribbon, SAR Ribbon, and FIND Ribbons that they earn while they're there...

Much like the giving a Cadet Competition Team a commander's commendation for winning the Wing competition...isn't that what the ribbon is for?

Coins are cool, and cadets like them.  So add $4.75 to the price of admission and buy coins.

[jks19714]

RE: Have to give the cadets something...

Coins are cool, and cadets like them.  So add $4.75 to the price of admission and buy coins.

There was a time when receiving a coin from a General Officer meant something other than just "being there"...