2011 HMRS

[sarmed1]

it appears the internet is not full of correct and useful information:
http://www.maps-n-stats.com/us_fl_elevation.html
mk

[airdale12]

You know it really gets annoying, people say that rangers are so full of it...when they have just as much attitude against Hawk as we do for Hawk!

Please if you come here its not to talk bad about the school, I think we would all really appreciate it.

Really???   Seriously?  When you have been around CAP and this forum for much longer and can gain more perspective, then credibility will rise.  Until then, well it is just whining.  Unfortunately, Hawk has earned its reputation good and bad.

So now you have to have year of experience in a forum for your voice to count? Makes a lot of sense! And wat do u consider enough time in CAP?

[spaatzmom]

it appears the internet is not full of correct and useful information:
http://www.maps-n-stats.com/us_fl_elevation.html
mk

True.  I took mine from more than one source, but the USGS was the main one with  the most credibility.  They also may not be the most recent figures.

[spaatzmom]

You know it really gets annoying, people say that rangers are so full of it...when they have just as much attitude against Hawk as we do for Hawk!

Please if you come here its not to talk bad about the school, I think we would all really appreciate it.

Really???   Seriously?  When you have been around CAP and this forum for much longer and can gain more perspective, then credibility will rise.  Until then, well it is just whining.  Unfortunately, Hawk has earned its reputation good and bad.

So now you have to have year of experience in a forum for your voice to count? Makes a lot of sense! And wat do u consider enough time in CAP?

Your response is only making my point stronger, especially the continued narrow-mindedness of "Why won't anyone see my side, I am right even if I haven't been there yet and I am still a cadet."  Kick all the dirt you want, it still won't gain you any points. 

[airdale12]

You know it really gets annoying, people say that rangers are so full of it...when they have just as much attitude against Hawk as we do for Hawk!

Please if you come here its not to talk bad about the school, I think we would all really appreciate it.

Really???   Seriously?  When you have been around CAP and this forum for much longer and can gain more perspective, then credibility will rise.  Until then, well it is just whining.  Unfortunately, Hawk has earned its reputation good and bad.

So now you have to have year of experience in a forum for your voice to count? Makes a lot of sense! And wat do u consider enough time in CAP?

Your response is only making my point stronger, especially the continued narrow-mindedness of "Why won't anyone see my side, I am right even if I haven't been there yet and I am still a cadet."  Kick all the dirt you want, it still won't gain you any points.

Oh okay I understand you can criticize from what you hear about places! Really why don't you stop talking without being there and actually show up. I will never talk about something if I haven't been there. Thats like me saying "ohh NBB is not good and the training is very low quality" (This is just an example, i want to attend NBB).

[NCRblues]

You know it really gets annoying, people say that rangers are so full of it...when they have just as much attitude against Hawk as we do for Hawk!

Please if you come here its not to talk bad about the school, I think we would all really appreciate it.

Really???   Seriously?  When you have been around CAP and this forum for much longer and can gain more perspective, then credibility will rise.  Until then, well it is just whining.  Unfortunately, Hawk has earned its reputation good and bad.

So now you have to have year of experience in a forum for your voice to count? Makes a lot of sense! And wat do u consider enough time in CAP?

Your response is only making my point stronger, especially the continued narrow-mindedness of "Why won't anyone see my side, I am right even if I haven't been there yet and I am still a cadet."  Kick all the dirt you want, it still won't gain you any points.

Oh okay I understand you can criticize from what you hear about places! Really why don't you stop talking without being there and actually show up. I will never talk about something if I haven't been there. Thats like me saying "ohh NBB is not good and the training is very low quality" (This is just an example, i want to attend NBB).

I dislike HAWK and i make it known. For 11 years i have dealt with returning cadets (and even some SM's) with the worst attitudes and uniform violations i have ever seen. Everytime they return, i ask the same question, and i get the same response... for 11 years. I ask, "did someone in charge at HAWK tell you, you are better than everyone else"... the answer i get is "yes". I then ask "did someone in charge at Hawk tell you, you can wear all that hawk bling when you get home" and the answer is always yes.... for 11 years the answer is always yes....

Now i am a supporter of NBB, and i know people also have problems with cadets returning with bad 'tudes and wearing the Beret, but as a staff member at several years worth of NBB's i can tell you this....NO ONE IN ANY POSISTION OF AUTHORITY INFORMS THE CADET THEY ARE BETTER THAN ANYONE, OR THEY CAN WEAR THE BERET EVEN IF THEIR SQAUDRON COMMANDER SAYS NO.

But, it seems HAWK has not changed, and it refuses to. So yes, i will pass judgment on HAWK, and i will continue to dislike HAWK until i get a resounding "NO" to my questions i ask cadets returning.

[airdale12]

You know it really gets annoying, people say that rangers are so full of it...when they have just as much attitude against Hawk as we do for Hawk!

Please if you come here its not to talk bad about the school, I think we would all really appreciate it.

In my squadron there are more than 8 cadets and SMs who have attended Hawk and none of them show any of the thing you are saying and i tell u want i leave on the 8th to hawk and ill tell u wat they tell me.

Really???   Seriously?  When you have been around CAP and this forum for much longer and can gain more perspective, then credibility will rise.  Until then, well it is just whining.  Unfortunately, Hawk has earned its reputation good and bad.

So now you have to have year of experience in a forum for your voice to count? Makes a lot of sense! And wat do u consider enough time in CAP?

Your response is only making my point stronger, especially the continued narrow-mindedness of "Why won't anyone see my side, I am right even if I haven't been there yet and I am still a cadet."  Kick all the dirt you want, it still won't gain you any points.

Oh okay I understand you can criticize from what you hear about places! Really why don't you stop talking without being there and actually show up. I will never talk about something if I haven't been there. Thats like me saying "ohh NBB is not good and the training is very low quality" (This is just an example, i want to attend NBB).

I dislike HAWK and i make it known. For 11 years i have dealt with returning cadets (and even some SM's) with the worst attitudes and uniform violations i have ever seen. Everytime they return, i ask the same question, and i get the same response... for 11 years. I ask, "did someone in charge at HAWK tell you, you are better than everyone else"... the answer i get is "yes". I then ask "did someone in charge at Hawk tell you, you can wear all that hawk bling when you get home" and the answer is always yes.... for 11 years the answer is always yes....

Now i am a supporter of NBB, and i know people also have problems with cadets returning with bad 'tudes and wearing the Beret, but as a staff member at several years worth of NBB's i can tell you this....NO ONE IN ANY POSISTION OF AUTHORITY INFORMS THE CADET THEY ARE BETTER THAN ANYONE, OR THEY CAN WEAR THE BERET EVEN IF THEIR SQAUDRON COMMANDER SAYS NO.

But, it seems HAWK has not changed, and it refuses to. So yes, i will pass judgment on HAWK, and i will continue to dislike HAWK until i get a resounding "NO" to my questions i ask cadets returning.

[spaatzmom]

You know it really gets annoying, people say that rangers are so full of it...when they have just as much attitude against Hawk as we do for Hawk!

Please if you come here its not to talk bad about the school, I think we would all really appreciate it.

Really???   Seriously?  When you have been around CAP and this forum for much longer and can gain more perspective, then credibility will rise.  Until then, well it is just whining.  Unfortunately, Hawk has earned its reputation good and bad.

So now you have to have year of experience in a forum for your voice to count? Makes a lot of sense! And wat do u consider enough time in CAP?

Your response is only making my point stronger, especially the continued narrow-mindedness of "Why won't anyone see my side, I am right even if I haven't been there yet and I am still a cadet."  Kick all the dirt you want, it still won't gain you any points.

Oh okay I understand you can criticize from what you hear about places! Really why don't you stop talking without being there and actually show up. I will never talk about something if I haven't been there. Thats like me saying "ohh NBB is not good and the training is very low quality" (This is just an example, i want to attend NBB).

"Why won't anyone see my side, I am right even if I haven't been there yet and I am still a cadet."   This is what senior members see when a cadet is soooo into the woods with their point of view that they can't/ don't want to see another's view.  I never said that I had not been.  I am well beyond cadet-hood as is my son, now a CAP Major after having been in since 1999.  This is where maturity of mind and age comes in and the blinders are taken off. 

Nothing wrong with the activity as such in the brochures, it is when the attitudes presented there are ingrained into impressionable youth and brought home to the detriment of the cadet and squadron.  The cadet leaves home wide-eyed and raring to go, learn and experience, but somewhere between arriving on the mountain and going home they have become absorbed by the Hawk collective mentality, for a lack of better words.  This is where most who have not accepted this line of thinking, call foul.

[airdale12]

You know it really gets annoying, people say that rangers are so full of it...when they have just as much attitude against Hawk as we do for Hawk!

Please if you come here its not to talk bad about the school, I think we would all really appreciate it.

Really???   Seriously?  When you have been around CAP and this forum for much longer and can gain more perspective, then credibility will rise.  Until then, well it is just whining.  Unfortunately, Hawk has earned its reputation good and bad.

So now you have to have year of experience in a forum for your voice to count? Makes a lot of sense! And wat do u consider enough time in CAP?

Your response is only making my point stronger, especially the continued narrow-mindedness of "Why won't anyone see my side, I am right even if I haven't been there yet and I am still a cadet."  Kick all the dirt you want, it still won't gain you any points.

Oh okay I understand you can criticize from what you hear about places! Really why don't you stop talking without being there and actually show up. I will never talk about something if I haven't been there. Thats like me saying "ohh NBB is not good and the training is very low quality" (This is just an example, i want to attend NBB).

"Why won't anyone see my side, I am right even if I haven't been there yet and I am still a cadet."   This is what senior members see when a cadet is soooo into the woods with their point of view that they can't/ don't want to see another's view.  I never said that I had not been.  I am well beyond cadet-hood as is my son, now a CAP Major after having been in since 1999.  This is where maturity of mind and age comes in and the blinders are taken off. 

Nothing wrong with the activity as such in the brochures, it is when the attitudes presented there are ingrained into impressionable youth and brought home to the detriment of the cadet and squadron.  The cadet leaves home wide-eyed and raring to go, learn and experience, but somewhere between arriving on the mountain and going home they have become absorbed by the Hawk collective mentality, for a lack of better words.  This is where most who have not accepted this line of thinking, call foul.

Okay but here we go again, you have to understand that this is a stereotype heavily weighted on all Rangers. Not all Rangers think the same way, like i said before, we have many in my squadron and no one displays this attitude you speak off. In fact we have two black belts and the only thing they wear is the tab and while on an ftx their black belts.

And i will tell you when I come back whether or not they truly influence this attitude on cadets.

[sarmed1]

Nothing wrong with the activity as such in the brochures, it is when the attitudes presented there are ingrained into impressionable youth and brought home to the detriment of the cadet and squadron.  The cadet leaves home wide-eyed and raring to go, learn and experience, but somewhere between arriving on the mountain and going home they have become absorbed by the Hawk collective mentality, for a lack of better words.  This is where most who have not accepted this line of thinking, call foul.

This is actually a problem with every cadet activity, epsecially those that cater to a younger or less experienced population.  [insert actvity name here] is the best, badest activity CAP has......why; because I was there and it was awesome.   HRMS it would seem has by far the largest portion of students that develop this problem (but they put thru more students evry year than most other NCSA's) but I have seen it with every activity inluding encampment (heck, I saw it when I went to Army basic training, and in retrospect despite what they told us about being the best or the best etc etc......we were just a bunch of mostly snot nosed 18 year olds that survived 10 weeks of being pushed around by a drill sergent...bue we thought we were one stop short of a super soldier)

mk

[sarmed1]

Okay but here we go again, you have to understand that this is a stereotype heavily weighted on all Rangers. Not all Rangers think the same way, like i said before, we have many in my squadron and no one displays this attitude you speak off. In fact we have two black belts and the only thing they wear is the tab and while on an ftx their black belts.

The rangers and other grads out there that are "good guys" arent the problem....nor are they the ones that everyone remembers.  Its like I tell people at work: It doesnt matter if I save 100 people this year, because thats my job and what people expect of me, but I kill one person and people are clamaring for my head on a platter......

Despite a justice system of innocent until proven guilty, our society continually reverses that and the burden of proof lays on the innocent to demonstrate their innocence.... and especially with this topic it seems to be an uphill battle.  Unfortuantely with every 1 week champion of the program condeming anyone that even looks askew at anything  Ranger, it becomes a 1 step forwad 2 steps back sort of game for the rest of us.  Thanks for the support, but take your own advise; zip it until you have your own attendace experience to base your opinions on.

mk

[NCRblues]

You know it really gets annoying, people say that rangers are so full of it...when they have just as much attitude against Hawk as we do for Hawk!

Please if you come here its not to talk bad about the school, I think we would all really appreciate it.

Really???   Seriously?  When you have been around CAP and this forum for much longer and can gain more perspective, then credibility will rise.  Until then, well it is just whining.  Unfortunately, Hawk has earned its reputation good and bad.

So now you have to have year of experience in a forum for your voice to count? Makes a lot of sense! And wat do u consider enough time in CAP?

Your response is only making my point stronger, especially the continued narrow-mindedness of "Why won't anyone see my side, I am right even if I haven't been there yet and I am still a cadet."  Kick all the dirt you want, it still won't gain you any points.

Oh okay I understand you can criticize from what you hear about places! Really why don't you stop talking without being there and actually show up. I will never talk about something if I haven't been there. Thats like me saying "ohh NBB is not good and the training is very low quality" (This is just an example, i want to attend NBB).

"Why won't anyone see my side, I am right even if I haven't been there yet and I am still a cadet."   This is what senior members see when a cadet is soooo into the woods with their point of view that they can't/ don't want to see another's view.  I never said that I had not been.  I am well beyond cadet-hood as is my son, now a CAP Major after having been in since 1999.  This is where maturity of mind and age comes in and the blinders are taken off. 

Nothing wrong with the activity as such in the brochures, it is when the attitudes presented there are ingrained into impressionable youth and brought home to the detriment of the cadet and squadron.  The cadet leaves home wide-eyed and raring to go, learn and experience, but somewhere between arriving on the mountain and going home they have become absorbed by the Hawk collective mentality, for a lack of better words.  This is where most who have not accepted this line of thinking, call foul.

Okay but here we go again, you have to understand that this is a stereotype heavily weighted on all Rangers. Not all Rangers think the same way, like i said before, we have many in my squadron and no one displays this attitude you speak off. In fact we have two black belts and the only thing they wear is the tab and while on an ftx their black belts.

And i will tell you when I come back whether or not they truly influence this attitude on cadets.

Ok, that's one of the problems. The "black belts" should never leave the mountain. They should never be worn on an FTX. What purpose does the black pistol belt serve??

[sarmed1]

What purpose does wearing a cord on your blues serve, or ribbons or marksmanship badge...or pre-solo wings?  Its an award that symobilzes completion of a program just like anything else that CAP gives people for accomplishing something... although worn with BDU's rather than service dress, and unlike some of the other HMRS "bling" its, allowable as a Wing Commander auithorized item in 39-1.

mk

[NCRblues]

What purpose does wearing a cord on your blues serve, or ribbons or marksmanship badge...or pre-solo wings?  Its an award that symobilzes completion of a program just like anything else that CAP gives people for accomplishing something... although worn with BDU's rather than service dress, and unlike some of the other HMRS "bling" its, allowable as a Wing Commander auithorized item in 39-1.

mk

Why not allow everyone to wear anything than? I can come up with some things that " symbolizes completion of a program".

So the hawk patch, ranger tab and whatever GT badge you get from it is not enough huh? You need your pistol belts, ascots, chain and whistle, boot laces, orange shirt and cover?

[sarmed1]

You asked the purpose of wearing it.....I gave your the answer.   I dont make the rules.  You want to wear pistol belts because you are squadron staff....e-mail your Wing Commander.  You want to wear ascots for you color guard e-mail your Wing commander.  You want helmet liners because your the dumpster officer... e-mail your Wing commander.

unlike some of the other HMRS "bling" its, allowable as a Wing Commander authorized item in 39-1

If you are unhappy with it e-mail it up your chain, or call the National Commander, I'm sure she has an open door policy and will be happy to chat with you on your views of why no one seems to be able or willing to make a definitive yes or no stance on the ever important world of HMRS and their uniform traditions or flagrant disregard for CAP regualtions (depending on your view)

I mean maybe some of the new people out there dont get it.... the pro-hawkers say because of this this or this it's authorized, the nay-hawkers say but this this or this say its not.  I get where you stand.  Must people really beat the horse on this one.... the nay-hawkers will never convince the pro-hawkers that they are wrong and visa versa....so why try.

mk

[GroundHawg]

MK your the man. Just when the negativity of these boards gets out of hand you put things in perspective that I can relate to. Maybe because we are both USAF Tsgt's that started in the Army? IDK.

[GTCommando]

Thank you sarmed1 for injecting some civility into this thread. Maybe if there were more of you in the debate, all threads pertaining to HMRS wouldn't get locked.

  I'd like to make a few things clear. I didn't start this thread to fuel the Hawk fire. I merely wanted to know if there were any other CapTalkers going to HMRS this year. As far as the Ranger attitude, I've only met one Ranger, and he didn't show symptoms of Ranger syndrome. I have, however, seen the better-than-you mentality in countless ES personnel in my experience. The results are not pretty, and have in many cases jeopardized the mission. I won't let that happen to me.

As for all of the Hawk bling that everyone dislikes so much, I agree with you for the most part. Less is more when it comes to presenting a professional image, and the full-out Ranger uniform, with the ascot, orange cover, white boot laces and so on, quite honestly looks rather gaudy, not to mention flamboyant. I'm not going to Hawk to earn extra decorations. the only one I'll be wearing is the patch, the one authorized in CAPM 39-1. I'm going to 'Advance my education and training' (sound familiar?), to make new friends and to expand my horizons. CAP offers so many opportunities to cadets and SMs alike that it would be a shame not to take advantage of as many as you can. No matter the merits and demerits of HMRS, lets please keep the conversation to a civil tone of virtual voice. 

To close, I'll repeat my original question: Is anyone else going to HMRS this year? Just ask around for Chief Crave Case and you'll find me eventually.  (Squadron nickname, PM me if you want to hear the story).

[fyrfitrmedic]

 I'm trapped in the hallowed halls of academia for the week; I will, however, be up Saturday night and possibly for graduation.

[FW]

I plan to visit Saturday afternoon and evening.  Skit night is always a treat....

[BillB]

GTCommando
Your attitude is refreshing. I can agree with most of what you say. HMRS was originally designed as a PAWG activity. As such it's excellent. I disagree with you in I have seen several cadets and seniors that have a Hawk attitude and wear all the bling. One ranger patch is enough for any person that has attended. Possibly different colors on the patch for the levels of training. But get rid of the rest of the bling.
Further, the HWRS training should be expanded to a Region level activity in each Region. The reason being almost every Region is different grographicaly with different training needs. Hawk should be the model for the regional training. How many Pacific Region cadets can afford the travel and expenses of attending Hawk? CAP cadets in Florida for example do not need to know how to carry a victim down a mountain since there are no mountains, and EMS would be on scene in such a short time or rescue helicopters to transport victims from the middle of the Everglades.