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encampment showers

Started by CCAlex, July 08, 2010, 07:16:25 PM

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Cobra1597

I've got to ask, Eclipse, how often do you have to deal with parents? I had one recently all but threaten violence against one of my cadet staff when he politely informed his daughter that her nameplate and ribbons were reversed on her uniform ahead of a parade. Apparently "talking that way" to a man's daughter is something to be done carefully, in his mind.

Seriously, if that is the level that sets parents off, I don't want to even think about justifying to one that we forced their uncomfortable son to go in front of all the other cadets (including ones potentially far older) completely in the buck.

There are a lot of areas I'm willing to pick my battles on with parents, but this just isn't one of them.
Harrison Ingraham, Capt, CAP
MAWG External Aerospace Education Officer, ADY
Spaatz #1597

Eclipse

Quote from: Cobra1597 on July 11, 2010, 02:41:24 AM
I've got to ask, Eclipse, how often do you have to deal with parents? I had one recently all but threaten violence against one of my cadet staff when he politely informed his daughter that her nameplate and ribbons were reversed on her uniform ahead of a parade. Apparently "talking that way" to a man's daughter is something to be done carefully, in his mind.

In addition to the units in my AOR, I generally have to deal with about 100 sets of parents a year for encampment.  I've never had any issues, nor anyone who asked twice regarding the showers.

I would hazard a guess that at least part of it is a lack of familiarity and accessibility.  Obviously we're not discussing showers for unit meetings, so things like this don't come up, generally, at the home squadron where people may feel more ownership and a comfort level with confrontation. 

As to your example, that would generate a direct attitude adjustment conversation with the parent that included the potential for termination or transfer of the daughter if things didn't change.

"That Others May Zoom"

Cobra1597

Quote from: Eclipse on July 11, 2010, 02:54:10 AM
Quote from: Cobra1597 on July 11, 2010, 02:41:24 AM
I've got to ask, Eclipse, how often do you have to deal with parents? I had one recently all but threaten violence against one of my cadet staff when he politely informed his daughter that her nameplate and ribbons were reversed on her uniform ahead of a parade. Apparently "talking that way" to a man's daughter is something to be done carefully, in his mind.

In addition to the units in my AOR, I generally have to deal with about 100 sets of parents a year for encampment.  I've never had any issues with parents, nor anyone who asked twice regarding the showers.

I would hazard a guess that at least part of it is a lack of familiarity and accessibility.  Obviously we're not discussing showers for unit meetings, so things like this don't come up, generally, at the home squadron where people may feel more ownership and a comfort level with confrontation. 

As to your example, that would generate a direct attitude adjustment conversation with the parent that included the potential for termination or transfer of the daughter if things didn't change.
When I said "deal with the parents," I meant actually dealing with them. If you are "dealing" with 100 sets parents a year for encampment, then you are doing something standard with them like applications or cadet drop off. You are not dealing with an irate parent. You are not dealing with a parent who feels their kid has been mistreated, or degraded.
Harrison Ingraham, Capt, CAP
MAWG External Aerospace Education Officer, ADY
Spaatz #1597

Eclipse

Quote from: Cobra1597 on July 11, 2010, 02:56:51 AM
When I said "deal with the parents," I meant actually dealing with them. If you are "dealing" with 100 sets parents a year for encampment, then you are doing something standard with them like applications or cadet drop off. You are not dealing with an irate parent. You are not dealing with a parent who feels their kid has been mistreated, or degraded.

Yes - actually "dealing with them", face-to-face, telephone, email, fax, carrier pigeon, and coconut wireless, including any number of conversations which involved multiple Wing CC's and NHQ legal.

We have to be flexible and sympathetic to unique situations, but parents and members don't dictate our program, and I certainly am
not going to let a parent or anyone else talk to me, staffers, or especially a cadet disrespectfully just to avoid an uncomfortable conversation.

"That Others May Zoom"

Cobra1597

Quote from: Eclipse on July 11, 2010, 03:14:47 AM
Quote from: Cobra1597 on July 11, 2010, 02:56:51 AM
When I said "deal with the parents," I meant actually dealing with them. If you are "dealing" with 100 sets parents a year for encampment, then you are doing something standard with them like applications or cadet drop off. You are not dealing with an irate parent. You are not dealing with a parent who feels their kid has been mistreated, or degraded.

Yes - actually "dealing with them", face-to-face, telephone, email, fax, carrier pigeon, and coconut wireless, including any number of conversations which involved multiple Wing CC's and NHQ legal.

We have to be flexible and sympathetic to unique situations, but parents and members don't dictate our program, and I certainly am
not going to let a parent or anyone else talk to me, staffers, or especially a cadet disrespectfully just to avoid an uncomfortable conversation.
Um, who said anything about letting parents talk to cadets, staffers, etc., disrespectfully to avoid an uncomfortable conversation? The only action about avoiding an uncomfortable situation was letting the 4'5" 12 year old wear a swim trunk because he's uncomfortable about showering naked with the 17 year olds. Isn't that about being flexible and sympathetic to a unique situation? How is that dictating our program? What part of the encampment objectives in CAPR 52-16 has "will shower in the nude in group showers?" I don't remember reading that as a program goal.
Harrison Ingraham, Capt, CAP
MAWG External Aerospace Education Officer, ADY
Spaatz #1597

Eclipse

#25
^ First you cite your own example about how touchy parents are about minor things, then you just make up an example of the extremes on the showering issue to make your point?

Flexibility is making accommodations for a member who has religious issues with communal showering, dressing, etc.

As a former Spaatz cadet I'm, sure you are familiar with the RST sessions that discuss using ORM to avoid the specific situations you are citing. 

"That Others May Zoom"

Cobra1597

#26
Quote from: Eclipse on July 11, 2010, 04:03:06 AM
^ First you cite your own example about how touchy parents are about minor things, then you just make up an example of the extremes on the showering issue to make your point?
I didn't "make anything up," I have cadets that size in my own squadron.

I used a real example to show the point that parents can be touchy, and how I'm not going to waste my time on a fight over swim trunks for a shy 12 year old. I didn't tell my cadet staffer he shouldn't have corrected the cadet's uniform, he was in the right, and I defended him to the parent. It was a fight I was willing to take, unlike a shy cadet who doesn't want to be exposed (literally) to a bunch of 17 year olds, in a way that does not serve the objectives of the program in question. Obviously wearing the uniform properly DOES serve the objectives of the cadet program, and is even in the cadet oath.

Quote from: Eclipse on July 11, 2010, 04:03:06 AMFlexibility is making accommodations for a member who has religious issues with communal showering, dressing, etc.
Why isn't it also being sympathetic to the little 12 year old?

Quote from: Eclipse on July 11, 2010, 04:03:06 AMAs a former Spaatz cadet I'm, sure you are familiar with the RST sessions that discuss using ORM to avoid the specific situations you are citing.
Yeah, I am. One way in the shower case is to let the cadet wear swim trunks. Another way would be to not have 12 year olds shower with 17 year olds, but this might create logistical/time management problems that would not be created by letting the cadet wear swim trunks.

As for the "example I cited" (I assume you are referring to the uniform correction at the parade), it was mitigated by the fact that a senior member was present when the correction was made, no one-on-one situation, we had supervision, we knew the correction had not been overzealous in nature. It still didn't prevent the parent from getting irate, and in the end, in my squadron losing two cadets (the cadet whose uniform was corrected had a sibling in the program). Again, this was a fight I was willing to take on, since proper wear of the uniform is a key component of the cadet program.

Where is naked gang showers listed as a vital component of the cadet program? As a Spaatzen (there is no "former"  >:D), I don't remember ever seeing it as a requirement of the program. If it is, then we've got a big problem some years of the Mass Wing Encampments, when we've been lucky enough to have individual shower stalls.

What training objective is being served by the gang showers?
Harrison Ingraham, Capt, CAP
MAWG External Aerospace Education Officer, ADY
Spaatz #1597

Eclipse

Quote from: Cobra1597 on July 11, 2010, 04:42:33 AM
What training objective is being served by the gang showers?

These are simply the logistics of the activities and a fact of life for human beings as they get older.  It is what it is, and what its not is a big deal, for anyone, unless they choose to make it so on purpose.


"That Others May Zoom"

Cobra1597

Quote from: Eclipse on July 11, 2010, 04:55:53 AM
Quote from: Cobra1597 on July 11, 2010, 04:42:33 AM
What training objective is being served by the gang showers?

These are simply the logistics of the activities and a fact of life for human beings as they get older.  It is what it is, and what its not is a big deal, for anyone.
So...no training objectives? No objectives that are getting hindered by them wearing swim trunks? Then what is the big deal about letting them wear them? Why is this the line in the sand?

I'd rather put my line at making cadets do PT early in the morning. Something actually related to accomplishing the objectives of the encampment.
Harrison Ingraham, Capt, CAP
MAWG External Aerospace Education Officer, ADY
Spaatz #1597

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Cobra1597 on July 11, 2010, 05:02:19 AM
So...no training objectives? No objectives that are getting hindered by them wearing swim trunks? Then what is the big deal about letting them wear them? Why is this the line in the sand?

Hygiene? I don't know about you, but showering with swim trunks isn't the best way to wash the downstairs, especially after a day in uniform, most likely during the summer when all people sweat. Good way to begin to chafe too.

Cecil DP

The alternative for the cadet who doesn't plan on being nude with several other cadets in a shower is that he/she will go without a shower, if not allowed to wear some sort of cover.  As for washing their nether regions while in a swimsuit, I'm sure that their hands can reach inside with some soap and wash and rinse those parts, as needed.
Michael P. McEleney
LtCol CAP
MSG  USA Retired
GRW#436 Feb 85

Eclipse

#31
Quote from: Cecil DP on July 11, 2010, 06:07:53 PM
The alternative for the cadet who doesn't plan on being nude with several other cadets in a shower is that he/she will go without a shower, if not allowed to wear some sort of cover. 

This is not an option, and I can assure you, that for whatever reason, you guys are making 10x's more of this than anyone else, parents or cadets, ever has.

It is impossible to argue every nuance of "what if..." that can be brought up to simply prolong this conversation, or try and prove that "you can't tell me what to do...".

It is what it is, the venue dictates the situation, and somehow hundreds of cadets and millions of young people in this country seem to be able to cope with locker room environments without negative repercussions.

"That Others May Zoom"

NIN

#32
Ummm, wow.

I'm all for segregating the "adults" from the "kids" (pardon the term there).

That being said, its difficult, nigh unto impossible, to segregate the "kids from the kids." (again, pardon the term)

What next?  "All thirteen year olds, line up for your showers. As the twelve year olds exit, please look up at the ceiling.."

Give me a break.

Mind you: I am in no way, shape or form a "nudist" or anything like that.  Nor am I a prude.   WIACS (when I was a cub scout) we went to the local high school's pool in the middle of the winter every year to swim.   One of the requirements of that pool (as I later found out when I was in high school, too) was that you had to take a full-up shower, with soap,  prior to putting on your bathing suit.  (The school had the cleanest pool I'd ever had the pleasure to swim in, and in the 3 years I attended high school there, to my remembery we never had to close the pool for cleanliness issues, just failure of the water heater.)

I was, what, about 8? 9?  I survived and, as far as I know, was not harmed in the process.  Nor were my peers.

Now, in 1981, at my first encampment, we had communal showers that were adjacent to the barracks.  Towel over shoulder, PT shorts on, walk to the shower, do your business, walk back to the barracks.  There might have been 4-5 others showering at the same time.  I was uncomfortable for about 30 seconds, and only that long because the flight sergeant started shouting about "hurry up!" and there was little/no time to be uncomfortable if you wanted to be clean.

Survived for many years with those kinds of arrangements.  Cadets in the cadet barracks with cadet showers, seniors in the senior barracks with senior showers.

In the aftermath of the gulf war, we had to move our encampment around for 3 years, and 1993 was held at Camp Grayling, the Army National Guard post in Northern Michigan.  While the latrines had communal showers,  the worst thing was the toilets without stalls.  I *never* got used to that.  I was on the crapper one day doing my business when  a cadet bombed into that latrine and it was just....weird.   We scheduled showers such that the cadets and seniors were not taking showers at the same time,  but its hard to schedule your Class II downloads, knowwhatImean?  (*In the female latrine, one of the female seniors  ran to the local lumber yard, got 1 x 1 and made rudimentary frames around each toilet which she then draped with spare bed linens...*)

Face it: 12 year olds and 17 year olds have the same basic equipment.  So who cares?

(I will freely admit: After being in the Army about 6 months, I came home on leave enroute to my first duty station, and immediately jetted to Alpena to catch the encampment graduation. I hadn't transferred to senior membership yet, so when I checked in I was lodged in the senior barracks, but as a C/Lt Col.  I grabbed my shower togs and ran off to take a quick shower in the senior showers, and while I'm showering one of the long-time encampment officers, a gentleman who'd been an encampment commander at least once during my tenure as a cadet, wandered in for a shower too.  Now, I'd spent 6 months showering with other soldiers, so I sure didn't have an issue with other naked people in my AO, but this was a CAP Lt Col who I had a fair degree of respect for, and it just struck me as this odd, unexpected juxtaposition... Looking back on it 20+ years later, its just flat out goofy, and it wasn't uncomfortable, really, it was just ... odd...)
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Майор Хаткевич

QuoteFace it: 12 year olds and 17 year olds have the same basic equipment.  So who cares?

In the words of a speaker who came to my Junior High one time: You look at the guy next you in the locker room, and he has a carpet sample on his chest. Then you look at yourself and count the three hairs.

The only difference between myself at 12 and 17 and now 20 is the amount of hair. And even now, I have friends with the proverbial carpet, while I myself escape so far with only some belly hair and the carpet runway from the belly button down. While all my other Russian friends have the chest carpets, I don't feel like I'm more out of place without it, or feel like a lesser man, or feel awkward when we play soccer shirtless...

FlyTiger77

Quote from: NIN on July 12, 2010, 04:52:07 PM
...  but its hard to schedule your Class II downloads, ...

In the belief that no nit is too small to pick, I do believe you meant Class I, as I believe no personal modesty is required to unencumber oneself of Clothing, Individual Eqpt, Tools, Admin, etc (Class II).

v/r
JACK E. MULLINAX II, Lt Col, CAP

NIN

Quote from: USAFaux2004 on July 12, 2010, 05:16:21 PM
The only difference between myself at 12 and 17 and now 20 is the amount of hair. And even now, I have friends with the proverbial carpet, while I myself escape so far with only some belly hair and the carpet runway from the belly button down. While all my other Russian friends have the chest carpets, I don't feel like I'm more out of place without it, or feel like a lesser man, or feel awkward when we play soccer shirtless...

Be glad.  Otherwise, before you're 40 your nickname will be "Sasquatch."

Not a pretty sight.

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Майор Хаткевич

#36
Quote from: NIN on July 13, 2010, 08:50:06 PM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on July 12, 2010, 05:16:21 PM
The only difference between myself at 12 and 17 and now 20 is the amount of hair. And even now, I have friends with the proverbial carpet, while I myself escape so far with only some belly hair and the carpet runway from the belly button down. While all my other Russian friends have the chest carpets, I don't feel like I'm more out of place without it, or feel like a lesser man, or feel awkward when we play soccer shirtless...

Be glad.  Otherwise, before you're 40 your nickname will be "Sasquatch."

Not a pretty sight.

Glad I am. But that's my point. I've seen 14 year olds with more hair than me. Somehow I don't think showering with one of them would traumatize me.

kd8gua

The whole shower situation was something I was deeply concerned about going into my basic encampment. When I was 16 or so, I wouldn't even go in the pool unless I had a shirt on. I was, and still am, deeply self-conscious about my body. Perfect example would be HS gym class:

I went to a Catholic school that ran on a college-like semester system. Our gym class was split with health, and every other week we would have PE. My HS locker room had the standard box-shaped communal shower, with shower heads on all the walls. The gym teacher told us day one that showering was optional. Of the probably 30 guys in my PE class, one, maybe two, would shower. I personally wore my gym uniform under my school uniform (dress shirt, slacks, and tie) and then brought a change of shoes and left the school uniform/shoes in the locker during gym. I would then put on my school uniform after gym, right over top of the gym uniform. So, yes, I was so embarrassed/self-conscious about changing/being seen in underwear that I wore my gym clothes all day.

I had many a sleepless night counting down towards encampment. My worries were relieved when my barracks was a college dorm building, and the shower/latrine was shared between two individual dorm rooms with two beds each. So our shower situation was setup that enough time was given for all individuals in each of the dorm room "clusters" to shower, since the bathroom was a single person setup.

Even as an SM, should I be on encampment staff, I would still have issues with showering in the event that showers are communal. If I was a TAC officer for a flight at an encampment, and the cadet staff approached me with the issue that a cadet wants to stay in a bathing suit/underwear while showering, I would be more than supportive of that cadet in question. This isn't the RM folks, we can't traumatize cadets by ordering them to strip (that sends the CPPT bell ringing in my head) in the name of cleanliness. Everyone has issues with self-confidence or self-image. Some more than others. To push those people with these issues into a situation that makes them very uncomfortable, you risk losing them from the program, be it just leaving the encampment, or leaving the cadet program entirely.

So take it from someone who has never, and never plans, on taking a group shower in the nude: Let them be. Let them wear the bathing suit if they want. Let them wear underwear if they want. It's not as easy (frankly, more like impossible) for people like me to just drop trou and shower in front of a ton of other people.
Capt Brad Thomas
Communications Officer
Columbus Composite Squadron

Assistant Cadet Programs Activities Officer
Ohio Wing HQ

CCAlex


PHall

Quote from: CCAlex on July 26, 2010, 03:34:14 AM
all right we're done

And nobody died from a heart attack or from fright because they had to endure an open shower room.

Next non-issue...