Hawk Mt. Staff Training is it the hardest in CAP?

[CAPcadet902]

I heard that Hawk Mt. is the hardest staff training program in all of CAP and no other school trains their staff as much. Is this true?

[SarDragon]

No.

[a2capt]

I'm not even going to guess what is or is not the "hardest", it's all in the degree of the school being run.

On the other hand, I would hope that they do their best to select the best they can for staff, and give them the best run down possible so that the students of that session get the best out of it that they can.

That goes for any such event.

[SJFedor]

Looking at your screenname, and assuming what unit you're with from that, I can imagine how you would have heard that.

Quality of training shouldn't be measured in how much time is spent training, but rather the quality in the time being spent. If I spend 4 years training someone on CPR, that doesn't make them any better at doing CPR. In fact, that tells me I'm one horrible instructor for spending 4 years teaching something that should take 8 hours.

[PA Guy]

I heard that Hawk Mt. is the hardest staff training program in all of CAP and no other school trains their staff as much. Is this true?

Whoever told you that must not get out much.

[RiverAux]

The hardest STAFF training?  I don't know about that.  I suspect that NESAs mission staff training is pretty intense. 

[Rodriguez]

Speaking as Ranger Staff, an Orange Scarf (meaning a full completion of the staff training program) I can personaly say Yes, It is the hardest thing I have done in CAP. However, I dont think people should go around saying that its the hardest, toughest thing in CAP. I just think it sounds a bit "showboatish" and it certainly dosnt help the stereotype that Rangers are given. But, and this is a big "but", I do think it is extremly challenging. I did the majority of my staff training in the Florida Ranger program, when it was still in full opperation. I can say that my Instructors (most of whom were Orange Scarves and Expert Rangers in PA and had been to HAWK several times) both Cadet and Senior, expected a lot of me, I mean my first phase alone was two weekends in the field a month, for 6 months straight. Is it hard? very. I cant think of anything you can do as a Cadet thats more demanding and more fulfiling. But i also dont think its right to go around saying its the best or thinking that because youve gone through it that your entitled to something.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I cant think of anything you can do as a Cadet thats more demanding and more fulfiling.

Spaatz?

[sarmed1]

Spaatz?

its all a matter of perspective....

I wouldnt say HMRS staff training is "the hardest" it certainly is the longest.
Usually at minimum 1 weekend, usually 2 from Mar to July at teh school. (and that's just for the entry level staff member...basically flt sgt equivilent) fully qualified staff member is another year of learning being mentored.

the difficulty level is no more than most things in CAP (it seems much more "intense" at the time) but pretty much show up, wear your uniform correctly, do you assignments and generally not be too much of a moron and you are pretty much going to get thru. 
Far more many people complete the yellow scarf year than carry thru to the orange scarf year of a full staff member

mk

[Star-Maker]

Speaking as Ranger Staff, an Orange Scarf (meaning a full completion of the staff training program) I can personaly say Yes...

...because you've done all the other NCSA and other staff trainings in CAP, and so you have a valid basis to compare them?

I have nothing against Hawk Mountain and the Rangers - never been there, don't know anyone who has, therefore have no way to judge them - but this comment stood out to me as nonsensical.  You can't reasonably say that Program A is the hardest program that CAP has to offer if you haven't done at least a decent, representative chunk of Programs B-Z.

[a2capt]

Where as you might personally feel that it is the hardest, of those you have attended.


It's certainly not cake, from what I have heard, and you get a workout and come away with a feeling of accomplishment and knowledge gained.

[raivo]

* raivo passes out Nomex flightsuits

[Spike]

^ Thank you Lt, but we need you "in the fight". 

Hard physically, mentally, or emotionally are all biased "feelings".  Hard to me, may be simple to you.  Does crying after a Staff Training weekend mean that Hawk has the "hardest" training??  Based on the number of "rangers" I saw cry at the Second Staff Training Weekend in 2001, I would easily say yes.  However looking back at it, the crying was caused expressly by the hazing that happened that weekend.  those that hazed others are no longer part of the Hawk program or CAP (thank goodness).     

[raivo]

^ Thank you Lt, but we need you "in the fight".

Copier armed and ready!

[Rodriguez]

Speaking as Ranger Staff, an Orange Scarf (meaning a full completion of the staff training program) I can personaly say Yes...

...because you've done all the other NCSA and other staff trainings in CAP, and so you have a valid basis to compare them?

I have nothing against Hawk Mountain and the Rangers - never been there, don't know anyone who has, therefore have no way to judge them - but this comment stood out to me as nonsensical.  You can't reasonably say that Program A is the hardest program that CAP has to offer if you haven't done at least a decent, representative chunk of Programs B-Z.

Why would you edit out the specific part of my quote that says "Yes, its the hardest thing I HAVE done in CAP. I said that specificaly so that, someone would not post a comment like yours. You clearly mis understood me, Or maybe you didnt and you intentionaly left out the personal perspective that was mentioned.

My point is, you cant just quantify this, meaning slap a number on it. Though if you wanted to I suppose the shear durration of training needed to get to the Orange Scarf level as a Cadet is enough to make it the longest staff training. I mean you make your own jugements but one of the best ways you can analyze this is to see the caliber of cadets that the program produces. My senior member instructors were all Expert Rangers, one of them was Army Special Forces,we had a Fire Chief, a Master Medic, I could go on. All of whom went through and completed staff training.

I cant think of anything you can do as a Cadet thats more demanding and more fulfiling.

Spaatz?

Thats not a staff training course number one. As much as I respect Spaatz cadets, It signifies the completion of the cadet program...Not that big of a deal to me. Its mainly a lot of testing on leadership. And while thats deffinatly important, I dont think you can get it all from reading a book and taking long and tedious tests. Dont get me wrong for a second time, Im not saying its easy, im not saying Ranger staff is harder or easier. Spaatz and Ranger Staff training are two completly different things.

[Pingree1492]

Well... If it's only a weekend a month for a few months in a row, it's not even the longest training offered in CAP.  Ask any of the teams competing in the National Cadet Competition how long and how often they practice for the competition.  Guarantee you that it is more than that!

It's always fun to try and say "I'm the most hard-core [fill in the blank] in CAP!"  but it generally is not the case.  If you worked hard for something, and achieved your goal (whatever it is) then be proud of that.  ES training is supposed to give you the knowledge, skills and confidence needed to perform those skills in a real-world application.  The training doesn't make you special, how you use that training on actual missions is what matters.

[Майор Хаткевич]

The Cadet Program, while not expressly a staff training course, definitely trains, creates staff, and can be considered a (and the main) course for cadets. The comment of course came about from your

"I cant think of anything you can do as a Cadet thats more demanding and more fulfiling."

To >ME< having done ES as a GTM, AE, and of course the Cadet Program, my Mitchell was demanding (and fun!) as well as fulfilling. So was my Earhart. And, if I had the chance, the Spaatz would be too (and I'm sure those who do accomplish it would say so).

[Eclipse]

Thats not a staff training course number one. As much as I respect Spaatz cadets, It signifies the completion of the cadet program...Not that big of a deal to me. Its mainly a lot of testing on leadership. And while thats deffinatly important, I dont think you can get it all from reading a book and taking long and tedious tests. Dont get me wrong for a second time, Im not saying its easy, im not saying Ranger staff is harder or easier. Spaatz and Ranger Staff training are two completly different things.

Comparing a multi-year commitment to a couple of weeks of hardkewl camping isn't exactly a fair fight.

Say whatever you want about HMRS it doesn't come close to the 3 diamonds whether you are speaking of the effort or accomplishment.

[CAPcadet902]

You know it's kinda sad. I just posted a question with the intent of finding a program to challenge me a little more, but most of you want to argue with each other just like most other threads.

[Майор Хаткевич]

You know it's kinda sad. I just posted a question with the intent of finding a program to challenge me a little more, but most of you want to argue with each other just like most other threads.

A forum is where like-minded (and sometimes not so like-minded) people get together to discuss and/or debate topics. What else did you expect?

Besides, how many people who ARE Hawk Rangers going to tell you it sucks? All of the smart ones moved on after attending and realizing it's not all it's made out to be.