Blue berets questions

[EMT-83]

I don't normally participate in uniform discussions, because they're generally pointless. But it is amazing that an otherwise intelligent person could cherry pick the NB minutes into supporting their personal opinion on uniform wear.

The Follow-On Action listed in the minutes required three distinct and separate actions to occur:
1) National Headquarters implementation of policy. 2) Notification to the field. 3) Change to appropriate CAP regulations.

None of these occurred.

The NB approved the items and defined the steps required for implementation. Again, it was the NB who defined these steps, not someone else spinning the topic to meet their own agenda.

Personally, I don't care one way or the other about the bling. I don't know how the Air Force feels about the bling. The simple fact is the actions defined by the NB never occurred. Why does the debate continue?

[lordmonar]

WTF?  A narrow subset of people?  Like anyone the wing commander said could wear it?

No, like, as per 39-1, only members who participate in the special activity that awards it, and only during that activity.
The only regulatory document fully vetted and approved by the USAF is 39-1, everything else was done by CAP with no apparent input or consultation of anyone at the USAF. 

Read that table again.

The wing commander may authorise it for "special purpose wear".  It also says berets provided at special activities can only be worn at those activities.   The USAF has already authorised us to wear the beret.  They have already said that wing commanders can authorise it for "special purpose wear".  Ergo the NB expanding on that does not IMHO need USAF approval.  Like I said we don't need to ask their permission to change the regulation.

This is differen then the Boonie Hat issue....as the USAF has NOT authorised the boon hat at all.

[N Harmon]

The boonie hat is authorized for the blue BDU, right? Would the beret likewise also be authorized for the blue BDU since it is not a USAF uniform?

[N Harmon]

Just as a hypothetical, if the NB put out a policy requiring every member have first aid training and included similar follow-on actions that likewise are never followed by NHQ, etc. Would we be saying the mandate was not policy?

In other words, does NHQ have such a pocket veto power against NB actions?

[NCRblues]

Look, the argument that 39-1 did not get updated is bunk. It has not been updated since 2005 for anything. Even then it was a worthless "update".

Some argue it needed to come out in an ICL, then those of us who are barricks lawyers argue an ICL is worthless....

NBB will continue to tell cadets that earn the beret they can wear it. I will continue to tell cadets in my wing they can wear it, and just because of this argument I will get mine out of the box of cap stuff and put it on.

[Eclipse]

Would the beret likewise also be authorized for the blue BDU since it is not a USAF uniform?

The argument NHQ has made for years is that CAP controls their corporate uniforms, however recent history indicates that is not the case, so you tell me.

Just as a hypothetical, if the NB put out a policy requiring every member have first aid training and included similar follow-on actions that likewise are never followed by NHQ, etc. Would we be saying the mandate was not policy?

Thank you for making my point, and I am glad to see we finally agree.

If NHQ put out a 1-sentence mandate that all members will have first aid training, but never follows-on with the definition of that training, the mandate is unenforceable, yes?  That could anything from First Responder to mom showing you how to put on a bandage.

Just as the 1-liner "authorizes" all HMRS gear in the same sentence as the berets, yet people keep ignoring that in this discussion.

just because of this argument I will get mine out of the box of cap stuff and put it on.

Well, I guess you're gonna show me!

[NCRblues]

I'm not trying to SHOW you anything eclipse.

What i am trying to do, is show the cadets in my wing, that people don't hate them because they went to NBB. Because that's how you come across. You seem to hate NBB grads just because of the beret. I'm not saying its true, but that's the way you come across. Many cadets and SM's read this forum but do not post.

Many cadets get barrated by SM's (outside of that cadets chain of command btw) about wearing the beret, even though the local commander for those cadets told them they can wear it.

I'm not trying to show you anything, what i am trying to do is proudly represent an amazing NCSA and experience that gets (since i cant use the S word) pooped on for no good reason.

[Eclipse]

Nobody hates anyone because of an activity they attend.  It's all in the attitude when they get back, or how they respond when someone
tells them to do "x" and they say "no".

"Please make sure to wear an approved hat next meeting."

"No, they told me at NBB I can wear this whenever I want."

"Cite please." (A commander's authority to dictate UOD not withstanding)

And then we are where we are.

The reality is that this affects so few people that it rarely comes up in conversation, and the majority of members respect their commanders enough to comply, even if the justification is "because I said so...".  It's the ones who won't comply, and are likely disciplinary problems in other areas and using the NBB or HMRS stuff as a way to "show who's boss", that cause the issues in ranks and generate the visceral reactions and discussions about these things.  You could make the argument that those attitudes make them poor candidates for the activities to start with, but we all know of the aversion of most CAP commander's to say the word "no".

And in all this, NHQ chooses not to clarify things, which would take a single, directly-worded paragraph.

This has little to do with the activities themselves, and if that is what is happening locally to your people, that's not right, but that also doesn't change the academic argument about the way this was done, or whether it was within the NB's authority to do it.

I will further grant, though, that since this is essentially arguing opinion, we'll never come to a conclusion.   Others have made the same points, I just happen to fall into an intersection between boredom and bandwidth that means I engage it more, and up until recently I was in front of an activity where the issues came up every year.

[MICT1362]

Eclipse-
"It's all in the attitude..." to cite you exactly.  And you are correct.  I believe that you said that in 12 years you have been involved this has always been an issue.  To be honest, I don't doubt it.  However, I would be interested to understand how in your first 1-3 years, as a new member you were so involved that this was even an issue on your radar.  I have watched SM's and Cadets alike, that come into the program over the last ten years (which is when I started) that were so busy trying to get "things" taken care of so they could participate in missions or could promote in the program, like they are supposed to, that the Nat. CC could have been removed and they would have just been like, "New Nat. CC, noted, check", and went back to work.  This is truly an argument that should be handled by command and only discussed/argued about here.  Your attitude towards this topic would be interpreted as hostile by newbies, and I think that you do yourself a disservice by coming off that way.  You have made your point very clear, as have many others.  I hope that some day, that we don't have to have this argument, as it becomes ever tiring.  I would rather argue about something that could save a life (since that is what I do, every day), but it might cause the organization to self destruct if we changed (or attempted to change) something that could someday save a life or prevent the need to have to save the life in the first place. 

All of that being said...  I hope that this issue is resolved when the 39-1 is re-released as a Regulation (hopefully soon).  I wont get my hopes up too high, but a little positive thought wont hurt. 

I am a Blue Beret, and very proud of the mission that we accomplish in a joint effort with the EAA Volunteers, the FAA, and on occasion the NTSB and USAF (as demonstrated this year and last).  I wear my beret proudly, and remove it when the occasion calls for it.  And truly, I would expect nothing less from my fellow berets.  It is a choice however, and some choose poorly.

To each their own, and we shall see what happens.

[lordmonar]

You know....we get that same attitude form HMRS, PJOC, HGA, ground teams, encampment, color guard, NCC, CAC, just being a C/NCO or C/Officer.

Attitudes I can handle.

"take off the beret"
"But they told me I could wear it"
"Well I say you can't and I'm your commander"
"No"
"Here's your 2b....have a nice day"

Like I said before.....if you want your cadets to take off their beret....good on you.  Just leave me and mine alone.

[MICT1362]

/\
+1

[Eclipse]

I also agree on this, but if the above actually "worked", we probably wouldn't be having these discussions.

I've had more than a few discussions with Phase 3 & 4 cadets in this regard, and we all know where and how those can go.

[lordmonar]

I also agree on this, but if the above actually "worked", we probably wouldn't be having these discussions.

I've had more than a few discussions with Phase 3 & 4 cadets in this regard, and we all know where and how those can go.

It works in my squadron.

BTW we allow the beret.

[MICT1362]

Same and Same.

[Eclipse]

Granted, however I would say this is more prevalent an issue in regards to encampments and larger exercises where you
have a more diverse group who aren't all on the same page.

People are going to be more inclined to toe-the-line with people they see every week then strangers they think "don't matter".

[Eagle]

I have a question:
I plan on going to Blue Beret next year, for the experience, with the Beret as the secondary reason for going. However, it is still looks really cool to me, and I would enjoy owning one for wearing occasionally. How do you earn the Beret at NBB? Is it given to you, or is there a set amount of tasks that you must complete?

[MICT1362]

Eagle,

The beret should never be your reason for attending this activity.  The mission is the most important part at NBB.  However, to answer your question, the awarding of both the Blue Beret and St. Albans Cross is at the discretion of the Command Staff.  This includes the Director, Assistant Director, Cadet Commander, and some other senior staff members.

It could be given out day 1, or you might not get it till the last day.  You could potentially not receive them at all if you don't earn them.

Medic-

[Eagle]

Thank you. The reason I want the Beret is just to add it to my collection, and to wear it for special occasions. My primary reason is the experience that I'll get. I greatly enjoy the different topics that NBB covers, like the ES practice I'll get, and the chance to work with older planes.

[lordmonar]

Eagle,

The beret should never be your reason for attending this activity.  The mission is the most important part at NBB.  However, to answer your question, the awarding of both the Blue Beret and St. Albans Cross is at the discretion of the Command Staff.  This includes the Director, Assistant Director, Cadet Commander, and some other senior staff members.

It could be given out day 1, or you might not get it till the last day.  You could potentially not receive them at all if you don't earn them.

Medic-

Then why do the give them out?

The whole purpose of the Blue Beret at NBB is a reward for doing a good job at NBB. 

I know what you mean.....we should be teaching our cadets (and SMs) that doing a job well should be its own reward......but the whole concept of bling (or any other reward) is to encourage people to do those jobs in the first place.

[MICT1362]

Eagle,

It isn't ES practice...  This activity is a functional mission, and can be one of the most difficult situations that a UDF team could ever face.  Literally looking for the proverbial needle in the hay stack. 

Medic-