CAP Talk

I heard that Hawk Mt. is the hardest staff training program in all of CAP and no other school trains their staff as much. Is this true?

No.

I'm not even going to guess what is or is not the "hardest", it's all in the degree of the school being run.

On the other hand, I would hope that they do their best to select the best they can for staff, and give them the best run down possible so that the students of that session get the best out of it that they can.

That goes for any such event.

Looking at your screenname, and assuming what unit you're with from that, I can imagine how you would have heard that.

Quality of training shouldn't be measured in how much time is spent training, but rather the quality in the time being spent. If I spend 4 years training someone on CPR, that doesn't make them any better at doing CPR. In fact, that tells me I'm one horrible instructor for spending 4 years teaching something that should take 8 hours.

Quote from: CAPcadet902 on May 11, 2010, 04:43:30 AM
I heard that Hawk Mt. is the hardest staff training program in all of CAP and no other school trains their staff as much. Is this true?

Whoever told you that must not get out much.

The hardest STAFF training?  I don't know about that.  I suspect that NESAs mission staff training is pretty intense. 

Speaking as Ranger Staff, an Orange Scarf (meaning a full completion of the staff training program) I can personaly say Yes, It is the hardest thing I have done in CAP. However, I dont think people should go around saying that its the hardest, toughest thing in CAP. I just think it sounds a bit "showboatish" and it certainly dosnt help the stereotype that Rangers are given. But, and this is a big "but", I do think it is extremly challenging. I did the majority of my staff training in the Florida Ranger program, when it was still in full opperation. I can say that my Instructors (most of whom were Orange Scarves and Expert Rangers in PA and had been to HAWK several times) both Cadet and Senior, expected a lot of me, I mean my first phase alone was two weekends in the field a month, for 6 months straight. Is it hard? very. I cant think of anything you can do as a Cadet thats more demanding and more fulfiling. But i also dont think its right to go around saying its the best or thinking that because youve gone through it that your entitled to something.

Quote from: Rodriguez on May 11, 2010, 01:39:15 PM
I cant think of anything you can do as a Cadet thats more demanding and more fulfiling.

Spaatz?

QuoteSpaatz?

its all a matter of perspective....

I wouldnt say HMRS staff training is "the hardest" it certainly is the longest.
Usually at minimum 1 weekend, usually 2 from Mar to July at teh school. (and that's just for the entry level staff member...basically flt sgt equivilent) fully qualified staff member is another year of learning being mentored.

the difficulty level is no more than most things in CAP (it seems much more "intense" at the time) but pretty much show up, wear your uniform correctly, do you assignments and generally not be too much of a moron and you are pretty much going to get thru. 
Far more many people complete the yellow scarf year than carry thru to the orange scarf year of a full staff member

mk

Quote from: Rodriguez on May 11, 2010, 01:39:15 PM
Speaking as Ranger Staff, an Orange Scarf (meaning a full completion of the staff training program) I can personaly say Yes...

...because you've done all the other NCSA and other staff trainings in CAP, and so you have a valid basis to compare them?

I have nothing against Hawk Mountain and the Rangers - never been there, don't know anyone who has, therefore have no way to judge them - but this comment stood out to me as nonsensical.  You can't reasonably say that Program A is the hardest program that CAP has to offer if you haven't done at least a decent, representative chunk of Programs B-Z.

Where as you might personally feel that it is the hardest, of those you have attended.


It's certainly not cake, from what I have heard, and you get a workout and come away with a feeling of accomplishment and knowledge gained.

/me passes out Nomex flightsuits

^ Thank you Lt, but we need you "in the fight". 

Hard physically, mentally, or emotionally are all biased "feelings".  Hard to me, may be simple to you.  Does crying after a Staff Training weekend mean that Hawk has the "hardest" training??  Based on the number of "rangers" I saw cry at the Second Staff Training Weekend in 2001, I would easily say yes.  However looking back at it, the crying was caused expressly by the hazing that happened that weekend.  those that hazed others are no longer part of the Hawk program or CAP (thank goodness).     

Quote from: Spike on May 12, 2010, 12:39:18 AM
^ Thank you Lt, but we need you "in the fight".

Copier armed and ready!

Quote from: Star-Maker on May 11, 2010, 08:11:03 PM

Quote from: Rodriguez on May 11, 2010, 01:39:15 PM
Speaking as Ranger Staff, an Orange Scarf (meaning a full completion of the staff training program) I can personaly say Yes...

...because you've done all the other NCSA and other staff trainings in CAP, and so you have a valid basis to compare them?

I have nothing against Hawk Mountain and the Rangers - never been there, don't know anyone who has, therefore have no way to judge them - but this comment stood out to me as nonsensical.  You can't reasonably say that Program A is the hardest program that CAP has to offer if you haven't done at least a decent, representative chunk of Programs B-Z.

Why would you edit out the specific part of my quote that says "Yes, its the hardest thing I HAVE done in CAP. I said that specificaly so that, someone would not post a comment like yours. You clearly mis understood me, Or maybe you didnt and you intentionaly left out the personal perspective that was mentioned.

My point is, you cant just quantify this, meaning slap a number on it. Though if you wanted to I suppose the shear durration of training needed to get to the Orange Scarf level as a Cadet is enough to make it the longest staff training. I mean you make your own jugements but one of the best ways you can analyze this is to see the caliber of cadets that the program produces. My senior member instructors were all Expert Rangers, one of them was Army Special Forces,we had a Fire Chief, a Master Medic, I could go on. All of whom went through and completed staff training.

Quote from: USAFaux2004 on May 11, 2010, 02:40:02 PM

Quote from: Rodriguez on May 11, 2010, 01:39:15 PM
I cant think of anything you can do as a Cadet thats more demanding and more fulfiling.

Spaatz?

Thats not a staff training course number one. As much as I respect Spaatz cadets, It signifies the completion of the cadet program...Not that big of a deal to me. Its mainly a lot of testing on leadership. And while thats deffinatly important, I dont think you can get it all from reading a book and taking long and tedious tests. Dont get me wrong for a second time, Im not saying its easy, im not saying Ranger staff is harder or easier. Spaatz and Ranger Staff training are two completly different things.

Well... If it's only a weekend a month for a few months in a row, it's not even the longest training offered in CAP.  Ask any of the teams competing in the National Cadet Competition how long and how often they practice for the competition.  Guarantee you that it is more than that!

It's always fun to try and say "I'm the most hard-core [fill in the blank] in CAP!"  but it generally is not the case.  If you worked hard for something, and achieved your goal (whatever it is) then be proud of that.  ES training is supposed to give you the knowledge, skills and confidence needed to perform those skills in a real-world application.  The training doesn't make you special, how you use that training on actual missions is what matters.

The Cadet Program, while not expressly a staff training course, definitely trains, creates staff, and can be considered a (and the main) course for cadets. The comment of course came about from your

"I cant think of anything you can do as a Cadet thats more demanding and more fulfiling."

To >ME< having done ES as a GTM, AE, and of course the Cadet Program, my Mitchell was demanding (and fun!) as well as fulfilling. So was my Earhart. And, if I had the chance, the Spaatz would be too (and I'm sure those who do accomplish it would say so).

Quote from: Rodriguez on May 12, 2010, 05:18:37 PMThats not a staff training course number one. As much as I respect Spaatz cadets, It signifies the completion of the cadet program...Not that big of a deal to me. Its mainly a lot of testing on leadership. And while thats deffinatly important, I dont think you can get it all from reading a book and taking long and tedious tests. Dont get me wrong for a second time, Im not saying its easy, im not saying Ranger staff is harder or easier. Spaatz and Ranger Staff training are two completly different things.

Comparing a multi-year commitment to a couple of weeks of hardkewl camping isn't exactly a fair fight.

Say whatever you want about HMRS it doesn't come close to the 3 diamonds whether you are speaking of the effort or accomplishment.

You know it's kinda sad. I just posted a question with the intent of finding a program to challenge me a little more, but most of you want to argue with each other just like most other threads.

Quote from: CAPcadet902 on May 12, 2010, 07:14:57 PM
You know it's kinda sad. I just posted a question with the intent of finding a program to challenge me a little more, but most of you want to argue with each other just like most other threads.

A forum is where like-minded (and sometimes not so like-minded) people get together to discuss and/or debate topics. What else did you expect?

Besides, how many people who ARE Hawk Rangers going to tell you it sucks? All of the smart ones moved on after attending and realizing it's not all it's made out to be.

Quote from: CAPcadet902 on May 12, 2010, 07:14:57 PM
You know it's kinda sad. I just posted a question with the intent of finding a program to challenge me a little more, but most of you want to argue with each other just like most other threads.

That's being somewhat simplistic.

Quote from: CAPcadet902 on May 11, 2010, 04:43:30 AM
I heard that Hawk Mt. is the hardest staff training program in all of CAP and no other school trains their staff as much. Is this true?

What you posted appeared to be more of a troll than a question.  When you join a forum you should spend time reading the messages first and try using the search function to see if a given topic is already being discussed, which in this case it has been, in a contentious way, for years.

Well doesn't NESA just require a staff application with no formal training?

Quote from: CAPcadet902 on May 11, 2010, 04:43:30 AM
I heard that Hawk Mt. is the hardest staff training program in all of CAP and no other school trains their staff as much. Is this true?

See the quote above of your original post wanting to know if HMRS staff training was the biggest and baddest around.  Now you say what you really wanted were other programs in CAP that might be just as or more challenging.  So here are a couple of suggestions you might consider, PJOC, Cadet Survival School, Combat Controllers Course or maybe the Civil Engineering Fam Course.  Some of these are NCSAs and some are run by Wings.  Check them out and see if they meet your needs.

Quote from: Rodriguez on May 12, 2010, 05:18:37 PM

Thats not a staff training course number one. As much as I respect Spaatz cadets, It signifies the completion of the cadet program...Not that big of a deal to me. Its mainly a lot of testing on leadership. And while thats deffinatly important, I dont think you can get it all from reading a book and taking long and tedious tests. Dont get me wrong for a second time, Im not saying its easy, im not saying Ranger staff is harder or easier. Spaatz and Ranger Staff training are two completly different things.

Looking back at my time as a Cadet, my biggest regret is not advancing past C/2d Lt. Now that I do emergency work for a living, I realize that the experiences and schooling I would of needed to become a C/Col is leaps and bounds beyond what I learned doing GTM stuff, and would have been much more useful in my current job then camping.

Quote from: CAPcadet902 on May 12, 2010, 07:32:20 PM
Well doesn't NESA just require a staff application with no formal training?

You have to have the ES qual before you can teach it. What is so special about hawk anyway? I look at the requirements and see them taking 3 weeks and you don't even end up with a useful qual at the end.

Quote from: JThemann on May 12, 2010, 07:44:00 PM
Looking back at my time as a Cadet, my biggest regret is not advancing past C/2d Lt. Now that I do emergency work for a living, I realize that the experiences and schooling I would of needed to become a C/Col is leaps and bounds beyond what I learned doing GTM stuff, and would have been much more useful in my current job then camping.

Yep - one of the thing that escapes young people by design is the unique opportunities afforded to them while they are still young, and adults in many cases are to blame.

CAP members can be ES operators their entire lives (literally), but only get a small window for the cadet program and all it can provide.
Lifetime Chiefs, 13 year old cadets who won't do anything but hunt ELT's, etc., or those who get so ensconced in non-core activities like CAC, activity staff, etc., are being done a disservice by their leaders if they are not pushed to participate in the whole program.

HMRS, NESA, CSS, whatever, are supposed to be extracurricular to the actual program, not the focus.

Quote from: CAPcadet902 on May 12, 2010, 07:32:20 PM
Well doesn't NESA just require a staff application with no formal training?

Not true.  (At least when I staffed NESA).

And please, can we stop comparing NESA and Hawk???  Two very different activities with different focus.  The focus of GSAR at NESA is teach students the skills necessary to obtain ratings through the completion of the tasks listed in the task guide.  You know, this little thing called the national standard.  The couple years I was there, they made it a point that NESA doesn't make you an expert super whatever; that it should be simply the start of continuous training.

The focus of Hawk is, as near as I can tell, to cause "super rangers" to come out onto CAPTALK.   ;D

I personally consider NESA our national training center and HMRS an adventure camp.

Quote from: Eclipse on May 12, 2010, 08:57:24 PM
I personally consider NESA our national training center and HMRS an adventure camp.

^ I've seen people come back from NESA trained and ready to go on missions.

I've also seen cadets come from Hawk starting WW3 to wear their orange boot laces, pink belts, and ranger patches.

Quote from: CAPcadet902 on May 12, 2010, 07:14:57 PM
You know it's kinda sad. I just posted a question with the intent of finding a program to challenge me a little more, but most of you want to argue with each other just like most other threads.

If you want to know more contact me, Ill tell you every detail of the Staff training to the best of my abilities.

Quote from: USAFaux2004 on May 12, 2010, 09:02:51 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on May 12, 2010, 08:57:24 PM
I personally consider NESA our national training center and HMRS an adventure camp.

^ I've seen people come back from NESA trained and ready to go on missions.

I've also seen cadets come from Hawk starting WW3 to wear their orange boot laces, pink belts, and ranger patches.

Ive also seen cadets comeback from NESA under-trained and under-motivated, and then expect to teach my cadets at an FTX. Not gonna happen. Not because they went to NESA, but because they don't know what there talking about or they don't teach it well. (Example: Cadets fall asleep during their class)

"Orange laces" don't exist at HAWK, or anywhere in the ranger program. "Pink belts" cant see why you would wanna wear that. And my favorite... "Ranger patches" which are perfectly allowed on CAP uniform, end of story. You can come rip mine off. (I would like to mention that the only Ranger related items I wear, are my patches.)

^ I believe he meant "ranger tabs"..... i.e. "Ranger 3rd Class" etc.

Quote from: Spike on May 13, 2010, 12:03:12 AM
^ I believe he meant "ranger tabs"..... i.e. "Ranger 3rd Class" etc.

Actually I meant the patch, from an incident circa 2006, when a cadet wore it in place of the then recently removed wing patch. We aren't PAWGers either, so it's non-kosher.

And Rodriguez, were the cadets who wanted to teach signed off as actual SETs? I wouldn't let anyone teach a new batch of people after only doing the training themselves. But I definitely wouldn't let a Hawker get close to the training, as chances are, they didn't do half the tasks, and got more talking points than helpful tips out of it..

The comment about "Orange laces and pink belts" was tongue in cheek, but is really not that far off from orange ascots, white laces, pistol belts, and whistles.

There are a wide range of activities in CAP that can challenge you, and in different ways.

You want a physical challenge? Look at Hawk Mountain or PJOC.

Academic/mental challenge? Cadet Officer School, SUPTFC (MS, anyway. I can't speak for TX), and many others.

Trying to generalize one program as 'the hardest' is an exercise in futility, and a waste of time and effort. Think about where you want to go in life, what you are interested in, and what you can do to get you there, rather than waste your time pursuing another person's idea of 'the best' or 'the hardest' activity in CAP.

Quote from: CAPcadet902 on May 12, 2010, 07:32:20 PM
Well doesn't NESA just require a staff application with no formal training?

Most (read: all) NESA staff are either experienced operators and/or, more often, former NESA graduates.

Since we are going down that route I'll chime in a few points:
to save your the search time, as I have posted before there are two distinct though not always clearly defined programs at HMRS
#1 is The ES and Ranger training programs
#2 is basically an excercise in leadership development (read in cadet programs)
  The staff training program is primarily a function of #2, but it occasionally leads to instuctors for #1

I'll copy SJFedor almost word for word on this one:
Most (read: all) NESA HMRS (senior) staff are either experienced operators and/or, more often, former NESA HMRS graduates.   (If you would like examples I will be more than happy to run down the list of  qualifications of some of the instructors I know personally; besides the CAP quals and experience)

Cadet staff are primarily there to facilitate the leadership excercise portion of the program and to manage the cadet participants daily living portion of the school....here's the latrine, eat dinner, its formation time etc etc.

Regardless of what program you come from I wouldnt let just anyone teach (even if they are SET)  Not everyone can teach, especially when CAP doesnt have a instructor program anymore when it comes to ES skills  and not everyone is good at teaching all aspects:  I know some instructors that are great at teacing practical skills but couldnt get the point across in the classroom as it related to background, theory etc etc.

mk

For clarification, because I see this all the time.

SET's do not teach.

They certify that someone has properly demonstrated a skill.

Many good instructors are also SETs, but not all SETs are good instructors.  For most CAP skills you could take a literate person
off the street and they could follow the directions and properly tell if the points were met.  The nuance of technique and best practice
is where being a good instructor makes you a better SET.

Some wings also have policies which prohibit being signed off by the same person who instructed you.

Quote from: USAFaux2004 on May 13, 2010, 01:07:28 AM

Quote from: Spike on May 13, 2010, 12:03:12 AM
^ I believe he meant "ranger tabs"..... i.e. "Ranger 3rd Class" etc.

Actually I meant the patch, from an incident circa 2006, when a cadet wore it in place of the then recently removed wing patch. We aren't PAWGers either, so it's non-kosher.

And Rodriguez, were the cadets who wanted to teach signed off as actual SETs? I wouldn't let anyone teach a new batch of people after only doing the training themselves. But I definitely wouldn't let a Hawker get close to the training, as chances are, they didn't do half the tasks, and got more talking points than helpful tips out of it..

The comment about "Orange laces and pink belts" was tongue in cheek, but is really not that far off from orange ascots, white laces, pistol belts, and whistles.

I wear my Florida Search and Rescue patch in place of my wing patch because its allowed in Florida Wing, Since early 2009. If it wasnt allowed I wouldnt, as should all Rangers. If I purposley broke the regs, It wouldnt help the stereotype we have. And if I catch Rangers that break the regs I get on them just as any of you would, it makes me and the other Rangers who follow regs look bad.

As for SET's, yes they were. They were either not engaging the students or they were teaching them the completly wrong information. Im not saying just because you went to NESA im not gonna let you teach. But just becasue Ive been to HAWK, your not gonna let me teach? Thats wrong. Im a Ranger yes but I also hold the equivalent Ground Team qualification. I can teach everything on it, and you know what I teach them both the same way. The right way is the right way, it dosnt matter whos teaching it.

And I think its time to put this myth to bed. Rangers no longer wear white laces. In nearly 4 years of being in the Ranger program ive never seen that, not here in Florida and not in Pennsylvania. As for the parade items (I.E. Scarves, whistles, belts) I dont wear mine unless im at HAWK or at a FLorida Ranger activity, or when im doing a presentation on HAWK, which I do maybe...once a year to cadets who are thinking of applying. Any Ranger who wears the parade items at squadron meetings or anywhere outside of the Ranger program is wrong simple as that.

Quote from: Rodriguez on May 12, 2010, 05:18:37 PM
Why would you edit out the specific part of my quote that says "Yes, its the hardest thing I HAVE done in CAP. I said that specificaly so that, someone would not post a comment like yours. You clearly mis understood me, Or maybe you didnt and you intentionaly left out the personal perspective that was mentioned.

The OP asked whether the Ranger staff training was the hardest in CAP.  The way you worded your answer, it sounded like you were using the fact that it was the hardest thing you had done to extrapolate to it being the hardest in CAP (because you gave a yes/no answer to their question), but warning the OP that they shouldn't go around saying so because it sounds snotty.  If that wasn't what you meant, then I did misunderstand you, and apologize.

Quote from: Star-Maker on May 13, 2010, 02:24:10 PM

Quote from: Rodriguez on May 12, 2010, 05:18:37 PM
Why would you edit out the specific part of my quote that says "Yes, its the hardest thing I HAVE done in CAP. I said that specificaly so that, someone would not post a comment like yours. You clearly mis understood me, Or maybe you didnt and you intentionaly left out the personal perspective that was mentioned.

The OP asked whether the Ranger staff training was the hardest in CAP.  The way you worded your answer, it sounded like you were using the fact that it was the hardest thing you had done to extrapolate to it being the hardest in CAP (because you gave a yes/no answer to their question), but warning the OP that they shouldn't go around saying so because it sounds snotty.  If that wasn't what you meant, then I did misunderstand you, and apologize.

Well thank you for at least being honest and admiting that you may have misunderstood me, thats more than can be said of some others on here.

Let me simplify it, Ranger Staff training is the hardest thing I have done in CAP. I think its wrong if any Ranger goes around saying its the hardest thing in CAP. However I do think its up there for the reasons I stated in my other posts. No, I cannot say its the hardest because I havent done everything. Im not biased to the Rangers its just what I really enjoy doing.

Quote from: Rodriguez on May 17, 2010, 01:12:14 PM
Let me simplify it, Ranger Staff training is the hardest thing I have done in CAP. I think its wrong if any Ranger goes around saying its the hardest thing in CAP. However I do think its up there for the reasons I stated in my other posts. No, I cannot say its the hardest because I havent done everything. Im not biased to the Rangers its just what I really enjoy doing.

The only thing I will say is that you need to be extra careful to make sure that your feelings of Hawk being the toughest thing you've done means that you don't feel that Hawk is the toughest thing you'll ever do. I know a lot of cadets who went to Hawk, and then got wrapped up in the Hawk mindset not because Hawk was actually THAT difficult, but because they wanted to feel like they had reached the ultimate hardcore level without having to try anything else that might be more challenging.

Unfortunately, I don't have experience at Hawk, so I can't really compare it to anything else in terms of "difficulty." I can say that I know personally three cadets who attended Hawk a few times, but failed the Spaatz exam. I know at least two cadets who were Hawk staffers, but didn't make it all the way through Cadet Officer School. Likewise, I'm sure there are cadets of both accomplishments who in some way or another didn't do well at Hawk.

I am a Ranger. I am a Grey Scarf trying to become a Yellow Scarf. I just need to say you people should be ashamed of yourselves. Your all members of Civil Air Patrol. Part of a program that will help you for the rest of your lives. I personally could not find a more fulfilling program in CAP than Hawk, but im not an elitist who hates people who go to NESA or CCOC or PJOC and so on. People who go to hawk go there because they love and enjoy it, at least in my case. I just dont understand why you little [censored]s have to argue over petty crap (like how hard it is). Go do your own thing if you hate hawk, i dont care, but leave its staff and attendees alone.
C/CMSgt. William Adams CAP

 :clap:

(http://oldfashionpopcornmaker.com/images/old%20fashioned%20popcorn%20machine.jpg)

Quote from: SyracuseCadetAdams on March 22, 2011, 11:10:17 PM
I am a Ranger. I am a Grey Scarf trying to become a Yellow Scarf. I just need to say you people should be ashamed of yourselves. Your all members of Civil Air Patrol. Part of a program that will help you for the rest of your lives. I personally could not find a more fulfilling program in CAP than Hawk, but im not an elitist who hates people who go to NESA or CCOC or PJOC and so on. People who go to hawk go there because they love and enjoy it, at least in my case. I just dont understand why you little [censored]s have to argue over petty crap (like how hard it is). Go do your own thing if you hate hawk, i dont care, but leave its staff and attendees alone.
C/CMSgt. William Adams CAP

Yes, how dare i voice an opinion that is not yours....

Man, this raised my respect level for the "rangers"....not ::)

Quote from: LTC Don on March 22, 2011, 11:31:30 PM
:clap:
(http://oldfashionpopcornmaker.com/images/old%20fashioned%20popcorn%20machine.jpg)

Don, save a little for me. And a good seat, willya?

Quote from: CAPcadet902 on May 12, 2010, 07:32:20 PM
Well doesn't NESA just require a staff application with no formal training?

The answer is yes and no. You have to be handed picked by the commandant of the school you are applying for, and fully qualified. But the Commandants generally only pick people they know are able to teach and train the cadets well. So unless you do well in the school you attend you will probably not be coming back as staff.

Quote from: NCRblues on March 22, 2011, 11:37:43 PM

Quote from: SyracuseCadetAdams on March 22, 2011, 11:10:17 PM
I am a Ranger. I am a Grey Scarf trying to become a Yellow Scarf. I just need to say you people should be ashamed of yourselves. Your all members of Civil Air Patrol. Part of a program that will help you for the rest of your lives. I personally could not find a more fulfilling program in CAP than Hawk, but im not an elitist who hates people who go to NESA or CCOC or PJOC and so on. People who go to hawk go there because they love and enjoy it, at least in my case. I just dont understand why you little [censored]s have to argue over petty crap (like how hard it is). Go do your own thing if you hate hawk, i dont care, but leave its staff and attendees alone.
C/CMSgt. William Adams CAP

Yes, how dare i voice an opinion that is not yours....

Man, this raised my respect level for the "rangers"....not ::)

HAHA! I couldn't have said it better!  :clap:

This is one of the reasons I don't like "ragers". They think they're better then everyone else.

How dare you go to NESA and learn more from many different schools in two weeks instead of going to Hawk!? ( <--- sarcasm).

Quote from: SyracuseCadetAdams on March 22, 2011, 11:10:17 PM
I am a Ranger. I am a Grey Scarf trying to become a Yellow Scarf. I just need to say you people should be ashamed of yourselves. Your all members of Civil Air Patrol. Part of a program that will help you for the rest of your lives. I personally could not find a more fulfilling program in CAP than Hawk, but im not an elitist who hates people who go to NESA or CCOC or PJOC and so on. People who go to hawk go there because they love and enjoy it, at least in my case. I just dont understand why you little [censored]s have to argue over petty crap (like how hard it is). Go do your own thing if you hate hawk, i dont care, but leave its staff and attendees alone.
C/CMSgt. William Adams CAP

Cadet...

The answer to your question(s) are in your question(s).

Quote from: SyracuseCadetAdams on March 22, 2011, 11:10:17 PM
I am a Ranger. I am a Grey Scarf trying to become a Yellow Scarf. I just need to say you people should be ashamed of yourselves. Your all members of Civil Air Patrol. Part of a program that will help you for the rest of your lives. I personally could not find a more fulfilling program in CAP than Hawk, but im not an elitist who hates people who go to NESA or CCOC or PJOC and so on. People who go to hawk go there because they love and enjoy it, at least in my case. I just dont understand why you little [censored]s have to argue over petty crap (like how hard it is). Go do your own thing if you hate hawk, i dont care, but leave its staff and attendees alone.
C/CMSgt. William Adams CAP

Cadet Adams,

I understand your zeal for HMRS.  I have a deep affection for "The Mountain"  and the staff of the school.  And, since I have played (a small part) in it's continued existance, I feel a bit partial to the program.  However, let's be realistic.  Some of the members on CAPTalk have been around for quite awhile now and, have a much wider experience than most cadets who have been to just 1 NCSA.

There was a time HMRS was more of a private and exclusive club; having little to do with the Civil Air Patrol ES program.  It was a place where cadets were abused and senior members did things that, today, would have put them in a very dark place and, branded for life.  Those days are long gone.  And, except for some entertaining rituals that have been retained, today's school is well run, worth the time and, staff training is a great way to help get the site ready for summer.  Enjoy your time at Hawk.  And, expand your cadet experience by going to other NCSA's as you progress through the program.  You will broaden your knowledge and have a more rounded life.

Some of you people are just... i dont even know how to describe you. In my last post on this page, i simply said that people dont have to hate on hawk. I was also trying to express my respect for other schools. I never said "how dare people go to NESA..." I mean really, i think NESA is a great school, and i respect ALL other members of the Civil Air Patrol, actually everyone in general. And i do not think i am better than anyone else, how can i make that more clear? really, how!?! Why can you people not grasp that not all rangers:
-Think they are better, or
-Are elitists
Also for others who brought this up, i certainly will attend more NCSA's in the future, IM 14!! I cant do most NCSA's until the summer of 2012.

Quote from: Cool Mace on March 23, 2011, 01:00:26 AM

Quote from: NCRblues on March 22, 2011, 11:37:43 PM

Quote from: SyracuseCadetAdams on March 22, 2011, 11:10:17 PM
I am a Ranger. I am a Grey Scarf trying to become a Yellow Scarf. I just need to say you people should be ashamed of yourselves. Your all members of Civil Air Patrol. Part of a program that will help you for the rest of your lives. I personally could not find a more fulfilling program in CAP than Hawk, but im not an elitist who hates people who go to NESA or CCOC or PJOC and so on. People who go to hawk go there because they love and enjoy it, at least in my case. I just dont understand why you little [censored]s have to argue over petty crap (like how hard it is). Go do your own thing if you hate hawk, i dont care, but leave its staff and attendees alone.
C/CMSgt. William Adams CAP

"Yes, how dare i voice an opinion that is not yours...."

Man, this raised my respect level for the "rangers"....not ::)

HAHA! I couldn't have said it better!  :clap:

This is one of the reasons I don't like "ragers". They think they're better then everyone else.

How dare you go to NESA and learn more from many different schools in two weeks instead of going to Hawk!? ( <--- sarcasm).

Yeah, tell me WHERE I SAID YOU CANT VOICE AN OPINION NOT YOURS! I just said you dont need to be disrespectful to hawk, i dont disrespect you, whatever you do, cool! im not saying not to give your opinion, just in a less stereotypical, and more respectful
(core value of CAP) manner. have a nice day cadet.

Quote from: LTC Don on March 22, 2011, 11:31:30 PM
:clap:

(http://oldfashionpopcornmaker.com/images/old%20fashioned%20popcorn%20machine.jpg)

I really dont get why this is necessary...

^^ I just want to say that I don't think any of those posters are cadets...

Slow your roll Cadet Adams,

Many Colonels frequent this forum, some from your wing.  With your name and unit number posted it would be in your best interest not to be openly disrespecting CAP officers (read: Senior Members).  I advise that you reread the code of conduct for the forum, and not get too worked up over some of the opinions you find on this board, especially ones from threads that are almost a year old. 

Cadet Adams; I would highly suggest you let this go.  Being 14 is hard enough.  Adults have developed "filters".  Filters are devices which keep unwanted "stuff" from permiating and spoiling the good.  If you don't understand the difference between discussion and rant, it may be a good idea to withhold continued posting until your filtering talents are developed.  Also, as Pylon explained in another thread, CAPTalk has a code of conduct.  Also, CAP has Core Values which we (members) all abide by.  Personal Attacks are not cool.  Respect others; even if their opinions differ from yours.


Enjoy staff training.  Enjoy this year's school and, if you see me at graduation come over and introduce yourself. 

Lighten up, Francis. (http://forums.cadetstuff.org/images/smilies/icon_drillsergeant.gif)

It appears that your view of Hawk is almost totally one-sided. The activity is about four times older than you and there are aspects of its history that you are likely totally unaware of, and a lot of it isn't pretty. Hence, the negative tone from some of the other folks on here.

Coming on here ranting and raving about your side of the story isn't kool. You're certainly not going to win friends and influence people in a positive manner with that kind of attitude.

Your posts are a look at you and your attitude. If you continue with the same antagonistic and belligerent manner, a lot of folks aren't going to care enough to help you out or pay attention to what you write. There are also all kinds of people reading what you write on here who could help decide your future, particularly in CAP.

just a friendly reminder

Oh, about the popcorn machine - some folks are just going to sit back and watch the festivities, as you dig your hole deeper and deeper. That, and similar, graphics are symbolic of that.

Quote from: SyracuseCadetAdams on March 23, 2011, 01:37:23 AM
I really dont get why this is necessary...

OK, I *swear* I'm gonna be gentle about this.

The reason for the popcorn machine is a metaphor.

We anticipate that, like going to the movies, there is going to be a very entertaining show occurring in the very near future.

The entertainment, as we've seen here time and again, is someone (in this case, you, Cadet Adams) coming on to CAP-Talk and getting *really* bent out of shape *really* quickly and posting something thats *really* inflammatory when they *really* shouldn't be.

What follows generally has a predictable pattern, and some of us "old skool" guys, having seen it a bunch,  like to pop out our lawn chairs, grab a bowl of popcorn, and watch the action.  We generally stay OUT of the action, and are mere spectators.

If you've been on the Internet, and especially the CAP Internet, as long as I have, you'd do the same thing.

After awhile, you just sigh, shrug your shoulders, and make sure you have a piece of paper towel so you don't get melted butter on your trousers when you absent-mindedly wipe your hand on your pants.

Cuz these things usually end like this:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e8/Libyan_MiG-23BN_shoot_down.jpg)
EDIT: BTW, Welcome to CAP-Talk, and if you'll be open to a bit of advice from a guy who's "been there, done that," try this on for size:

if whatever it is you're reading (here) has your breathing and heart rate up a couple notches, my suggestion is to step back from the keyboard for a little bit and don't post when something you've just read has you agitated.

Trust me on that one.

Cadet Adams,

I'm not a cadet, but i used to be.

Since joining the active duty AF and holding 2 different afsc's, i have seen a lot and done a lot more, but on to my point.

#1. You are NOT a "ranger". Let me type that out again....not a "ranger". I have been to NBB several times now (along with other NCSA as a cadet and SM) but i do not introduce myself as a "blue beret". You are a Civil Air Patrol Cadet that went and took training at Hawk, that's it. It does not make you a ranger anymore than the "blue beret" from NBB makes you a sky cop...

#2. Many of the Sm's here have no problem with HAWK itself, but we do have a problem with the cadets attitude that seems to leak from that place year after year. Point in case, you....

Hawk i think is overall a good thing, but something is not right there if CAP members from ALL over the nation report the same thing...bad attitudes and elitism. Being a teen, i will give you the benefit of the doubt and say you are just misguided and need to have a "come to jesus" talk with some who has been around forever a long time....FW or any of the other old guys...i mean...senior members  >:D

Anyway, cadet, buck up. People are going to disagree with you for the rest of your life. Fighting and arguing will not get you far...

Quote from: tsrup on March 23, 2011, 01:47:18 AM
Slow your roll Cadet Adams,

Many Colonels frequent this forum, some from your wing.  With your name and unit number posted it would be in your best interest not to be openly disrespecting CAP officers (read: Senior Members).  I advise that you reread the code of conduct for the forum, and not get too worked up over some of the opinions you find on this board, especially ones from threads that are almost a year old.

I am sorry Sir, i meant absolutley no disrespect to anyone, cadet or senior members. I really was trying to ask questions more that just do what everyone else does on these forums.... argue. And the swear i used, i completely honestly did not realize i used until i posted it. Again Sir, I sincerely apologize to anyone i may have offended or disrespected.

Quote from: CivilAirPatrol1996 on March 23, 2011, 02:32:15 AM

Quote from: tsrup on March 23, 2011, 01:47:18 AM
Slow your roll Cadet Adams,

Many Colonels frequent this forum, some from your wing.  With your name and unit number posted it would be in your best interest not to be openly disrespecting CAP officers (read: Senior Members).  I advise that you reread the code of conduct for the forum, and not get too worked up over some of the opinions you find on this board, especially ones from threads that are almost a year old.

I am sorry Sir, i meant absolutley no disrespect to anyone, cadet or senior members. I really was trying to ask questions more that just do what everyone else does on these forums.... argue. And the swear i used, i completely honestly did not realize i used until i posted it. Again Sir, I sincerely apologize to anyone i may have offended or disrespected.

The way you type sends a lot about the way you are meaning your words. Using things like !?!, or ALL CAPS shows anger and disrespect. Settle down a bit, take a breather, and step away for five minutes. If that doesn't help, write your response in Word, read it a couple of times and think about how it makes you feel to read it, if it still gets your blood pumping, just don't write it.

I think Hawk is a great school, here in INWG though, it is tough to get to PAWG, and NESA is a great school. There is not much that is taught at Hawk that isn't taught at NESA. The important thing is that people who want to operate on the ground are getting the important training that we need.

Good luck, and enjoy being a cadet, I had more fun as a cadet than I could ever ask for again.

I went to HMRS 3 times as a cadet. Really enjoyed my experience with the Medic Program in paticular. Most folks on here like the concept of HMRS, but HMRS always ruins it. Its the tude that is picked up for whatever reason. The attitudes are dropped at my squadron the second they return and all the bling that goes with it. They can keep the tabs and patch, but the scarves, laces, belts, whistle chains, crushed covers, etc.... are not tolerated.
As for me, I would be thrilled if anyone on HMRS staff would return an email... :-\

Quote from: CivilAirPatrol1996 on March 23, 2011, 02:32:15 AM

Quote from: tsrup on March 23, 2011, 01:47:18 AM
Slow your roll Cadet Adams,

Many Colonels frequent this forum, some from your wing.  With your name and unit number posted it would be in your best interest not to be openly disrespecting CAP officers (read: Senior Members).  I advise that you reread the code of conduct for the forum, and not get too worked up over some of the opinions you find on this board, especially ones from threads that are almost a year old.

I am sorry Sir, i meant absolutley no disrespect to anyone, cadet or senior members. I really was trying to ask questions more that just do what everyone else does on these forums.... argue. And the swear i used, i completely honestly did not realize i used until i posted it. Again Sir, I sincerely apologize to anyone i may have offended or disrespected.

The way you type sends a lot about the way you are meaning your words. Using things like !?!, or ALL CAPS shows anger and disrespect. Settle down a bit, take a breather, and step away for five minutes. If that doesn't help, write your response in Word, read it a couple of times and think about how it makes you feel to read it, if it still gets your blood pumping, just don't write it.

I think Hawk is a great school, here in INWG though, it is tough to get to PAWG, and NESA is a great school. There is not much that is taught at Hawk that isn't taught at NESA. The important thing is that people who want to operate on the ground are getting the important training that we need.

Good luck, and enjoy being a cadet, I had more fun as a cadet than I could ever ask for again.

The Hawk defenders can say whatever they want about how the school had changed every year.

But the case remains that we continue to see these attitudes from Hawk graduates. The same attitudes I saw as a cadet, and the same attitudes that have been around since before my time.

Stanford once explained to me that Hawk was not so much a SAR school as a leadership school, which I can accept. I can also accept that it puts out some sharp graduates.

But if it's trying to teach leadership, and we're still dealing with enough attitude problems to keep the stereotype alive, I question whether the school remembers that most of its students are younger teenagers, and is marketing the lessons in an appropriate way for that group. There are many great leadership activities which, despite putting out some bad apples of their own, do not have a reputation for it.

If Hawk really is changing, they either aren't changing enough, or changing the wrong things.

Perhaps they should consider a higher age or grade limitation if they want to continue teaching this way. Surely it can't be either their intention or have escaped their notice that we see the same problems year after year...

FYI, the 'tude was around when I was a cadet. I was in NJ wing, and the Hawk grads were drinking the Kool-Aid back then, even before that phrase was even invented.

All a matter of perspective but by any of my measures, no.

Taking the question at face value, if by "hardest" you mean most physically demanding, no.   This national activity easily takes that honor:
http://ncsas.com/index.cfm/advanced_pararescue_orientation_course?show=career_fair&careerFairID=4

If a cadet wants to test him/herself that's the place to be. 

Quote from: GroundHawg on March 23, 2011, 02:54:39 AM
...As for me, I would be thrilled if anyone on HMRS staff would return an email... :-\

fire away...... I can imediately answer questions medic related....other quetions may take a day or two

mk

Quote from: Nathan on March 23, 2011, 04:11:11 AM
The Hawk defenders can say whatever they want about how the school had changed every year.

But the case remains that we continue to see these attitudes from Hawk graduates. The same attitudes I saw as a cadet, and the same attitudes that have been around since before my time.

Stanford once explained to me that Hawk was not so much a SAR school as a leadership school, which I can accept. I can also accept that it puts out some sharp graduates.

Attitudes from cadets attending HMRS are not that different from those attending NBB or PJOC.  Cadets are proud of their accomplishments and like to brag.  And, since HMRS is over 55 years old, there is a certain history that is ingrained into the students.  Such is the world we live in. 

Yes, the extra "bling" is not uniform outside the school. It is the squadron commander's responsibility to enforce the regulations.  Cadets need to understand boundaries. 

HMRS training is vigorous, so is PJOC, NESA and, NBB.  It's also fun and rewarding.  I have grown fond of the "tude"  for all these NCSA's.  However, they need to be tempered with reality when home.... ;)

Quote from: FW on March 23, 2011, 11:51:51 AM
Attitudes from cadets attending HMRS are not that different from those attending NBB or PJOC.  Cadets are proud of their accomplishments and like to brag.  And, since HMRS is over 55 years old, there is a certain history that is ingrained into the students.  Such is the world we live in.

This has not been my experience. The only other school that I've seen get a bad rap for its graduate attitudes has been the Honor Guard Academy, and it definitely hasn't been to the level of Hawk.

Like I said, no one doubts that NBB, PJOC, and COS put out elitists of their own. But in my own experience both in the cadet program and with many years on cadet forums, the number of elitists that create these issues from other schools is insignificant when compared to Hawk.

For one, the other schools that are "elite" at the very least are actually selective about who attends. Both PJOC and COS accept only a fraction of those that apply. NBB used to be the same way, but we can also recognize that the vast majority of elitist-based attitude that comes from NBB comes from the beret. The cadets from the activity assume that they're special because they have a special hat, while the Hawk people assume they need a special hat because they're special.

Being proud of your school is one thing. Feeling as if the entire world is against you and is jealous of how awesome you are for having completed the course is another. People who are proud simply defend their school when under attack. Fanatics create threads asking people to attack their school so they can defend it. Every year, especially online, this trend is seemingly a signature of Hawk grads.

I have nothing against the school, I promise. But there comes a point when the reputation for putting out bad attitudes cannot simply be attributed to the random bad apples that slip through the cracks anymore. No one is saying Hawk is a bad school. But something about their training methods are either allowing or producing these attitudes, and when they come back home with the cadet, I think we have every right to ask Hawk to make sure the 'tude doesn't leave the mountain. So far, they seem to have failed in accomplishing this.

Nathan, I don't want to be an apologist for Hawk (I can't believe I'm actually responding to his thread  ??? ) however, as I said before, there is a certain "aura" after 55 years of continuous operation which is ingrained in the students.  I have participated and visited the school many times in the last 40 years and have seen a marked improvement in the way things are run.  It has an active "alumni" association and many non-CAP supporters which tend to boost the aura of the school.  There is no active teaching of superiority I've ever witnessed (at least in the last 15 years).  It's just that going to HMRS has become "the" school to go to for many seniors and cadets.
 
If it was the really the problem you make it to be, HMRS would have been closed down a long time ago. (The land would make a great resort...)

From my experience,  the "tude" you are referring to doesn't exist today.  At least, not in this century... >:D

Quote from: FW on March 23, 2011, 02:53:25 PMFrom my experience,  the "tude" you are referring to doesn't exist today.  At least, not in this century...

The 'tude fully exists, both for HMRS and NBB.

Something is failing - maybe the attitude at the schools, maybe there isn't enough "real" adult leadership (i.e. I know plenty of adults who act like children
when they do CAP sleepover activities), maybe it is the ambiguous uniform regs that allow C/SrA's to argue with their unit CC's about tabs, etc., maybe we simply don't teach CAP's real place in the world enough at the squadron level, which allows the 'tudes to grow when in the light of day.

But something is broken, and has been for a long time.

Eclipse, I think you are on to something.  If squadron commanders are still dealing with 100's of cadets around the country each year with the  "tude", then something is broken.  In the old days, we would have a National Cadet Programs committee that could deal with such issues.  Maybe it's time to reconstitute it?

Quote from: Eclipse on March 23, 2011, 04:09:17 PM

Quote from: FW on March 23, 2011, 02:53:25 PMFrom my experience,  the "tude" you are referring to doesn't exist today.  At least, not in this century...

The 'tude fully exists, both for HMRS and NBB.

Something is failing - maybe the attitude at the schools, maybe there isn't enough "real" adult leadership (i.e. I know plenty of adults who act like children
when they do CAP sleepover activities), maybe it is the ambiguous uniform regs that allow C/SrA's to argue with their unit CC's about tabs, etc., maybe we simply don't teach CAP's real place in the world enough at the squadron level, which allows the 'tudes to grow when in the light of day.
But something is broken, and has been for a long time.

Sir,
The problem at NBB is not the adults leadership. Col peace, Col Aye, and others are great leaders. The problem is cadets. Last year was one of the worst year for many reasons. But one if the big reasons was cadets making dumb choices. The same goes for the attitude. I know plenty of cadets that went that had no attitude at all. But then I run into some cadets that take the attitude to the extreme and make NBB look terrible. So like I said before we cadets seam to be the problem not the senior leadership.

Sorry I'm late to the party, lads. I was working on this before lunch and got distracted by this darn thing called work...

I went to the Hawk Winter school as a senior 9 years ago (that adventure was detailed in the CadetStuff.org articles "How I Got The Thousand Yard Stare (http://www.cadetstuff.org/archives/000086.html#000086)" and "How I Got The Thousand Yard Stare Pt2 (http://www.cadetstuff.org/archives/000087.html#000087)"). 

Honestly, I thought the training was pretty good and it was a challenging course, but nobody at the school was saying 'Hey, go back to your wings and tell everybody how great you are and how they all suck!' or anything like that.

See, up to that point, I'd participated in CAP ES pretty actively, mostly as ground team, and was a current and active GTL.  As a cadet, I'd gone to two different "Ranger Schools" in MI Wing (both the "Group XII Ranger" program at Drummond Island, and the Group III program run out of Selfridge ANGB by members of the USAFR's 305th AARSQ), so I've seen first-hand at least three different modes of "ranger" training.

I can admit that as a cadet I had some "ranger attitude" that was not only wholly unwarranted, but was, in retrospect, completely comical. I'm surprised, 25+ years later, that I didn't get my membership card handed to me with a "there's the door, don't let it hit you on the way out"... (I always said as a unit commander: "If I had myself as a cadet in my squadron, I'd have to kick my own [fourth point of contact]"..teee heeee)

Fastforward to the latter decade of the 20th century and the first of the new century, and I still see these same kinds of attitudes out of places like Hawk Mtn, Blue Beret, various wing "ranger" schools, Honor Guard Academy, to a lesser extent NESA, etc.   

Sometimes its attitude. 

Sometimes its misplaced elitism.

Other times its just the continual and somewhat flagrant flaunting of things like the rules surrounding uniform wear and all the bling-bling (scarfs, hats, berets, patches, St. Albans crosses, pistol belts, bloused jump boots, cords, pens, t-shirts, ranger tabs, whistles, little tiny frogs, etc, etc, etc)

(yes, yes, over the years these things have gone from
- "totally unauthorized anywhere" to
- "these things are not authorized outside of the bounds of this [group/wing/activity], so don't wear it..*nudge* *nudge*" to
- "well, its kinda/sorta authorized, since we have a photo of the guy who was the National Commander 10 years ago wearing one of our [insert bling-bling item here]" to
- "its authorized if your wing commander says so, or maybe not, we're not sure and neither is anybody else" to
- "I think the NB/NEC said it was OK.. at least, thats what I heard.." to
- "The NB said it was OK, and I have a copy of the minutes from that NB meeting that I printed off the Internet in my pocket for just such an emergency, even if they never bothered to update the reg or issue an ICL" to
- "not only is it ok, but you can't tell me to take it off.. nah-nah!"
and all manner of wear combos in between.)

As a unit commander, I have never contemplated as much violence against the personage of a cadet as I have when some chowderhead rather disrespectfully suggests that I pack sand in my nether regions before he'll take off his [orange hat/ascot/whistle/honor guard toe taps/beret/st albans cross/bloused jump boots/whatever]. It did, however, warm the cockles of my heart when I could effect a swift and massive attitude change just by sliding a CAPF 2B with their name on it across the table..

But I digress..

Of course, the "I was taught this at [insert activity name here] so therefore I am the ultimate authority on this subject.." kinds of thought processes are frequently related to the aforementioned arrogance/elitism issues.

(I always remember the cadet who tried to tell me that since he'd been to EAA two years prior, the way he was marshalling aircraft on the SAREX ramp was 100% correct and "the way its supposed to be done." He was utterly immune to suggestions that there was a way to do it that was different from his way, you know, like the way the aircrew would be expecting to be marhaled in.  I stepped back, said "OK, there, troop, you've got it. Show me what you've got!" and watched him marshal in an airplane. The aircrew got out and said "Kid, where the hell did you learn how to marshal aircraft?" and the cadet very proudly said "EAA Oshkosh Blue Beret, SIR!" The pilot, the Wing DO as I recall, says "If you marshal a plane like again, I'll make it my mission in life to ensure that all you do is Mission Radio Operator forever, get my meaning?"  I pulled the cadet aside after watching him deflate considerably, and had to explain to him that while I was sure that his training was all high-speed, low-drag and he learned a lot, got a ton of practice doing it, sweated his butt off on the ramp, etc, etc, just cuz it was at Oshkosh did not mean that it was the right way to do it with CAP aircrews at a mission base.)

More to the point, what I've seen is that each of these programs has their good points and bad points, but almost universally, what they do is breed a level of "I'm better than you cuz I've been to [activity/course/school] and you haven't" among cadets. 

This is not endemic to just Hawk Mtn, as I've said.  The Hawk Mtn people, when I was there, and the people I've talked to over the years, always emphasize how graduates and attendees are ambassadors to the program and are reminded of such repeatedly.  But somehow, folks get away from the flagpole and out in the rest of the world and they put on a bozo wig and a funny nose and start clowning around. (again: been there, done that, got a t-shirt for it, even stole the "I'm a ranger school clown!" coffee mug from a guy. Guilty of being an over-exuberant teenager.. yep) 

Humor me for a minute:

If Blue Beret, Hawk Mtn, the Honor Guard Academy, etc, all stopped handing out "bling-bling" for the uniform and went to a 100% "whats in your head is what you take away" model, do you think the attendance/participation/interest at these schools would a) increase, or b) decrease?

And, conversely, if all the bling-bling went away, and people still went to these courses but then returned to their units with specialized knowledge and nothing more than a (black or brown) t-shirt that they could wear under their BDU shirt and nothing more outward than that, do you think all the breast-beating and generalized chest-thumping would a) increase or b) decrease.

Its been my experience that in both of these instances, b) is likely the outcome.

People, and especially cadets teenagers want to be different, not all the same, from their peers, even in a nominally "uniform" environment like CAP.

I think, in some ways, its like a carrot and stick approach. 

A C/Amn might aspire to become a C/MSgt because he'll have "more fruit salad" than others. (the "I get more leadership opportunities that way" is a distant second for most)
C/SSgt Snuffy might decide to get into ES because then she'll have this cool GT badge on her uniform. 
Or C/TSgt Bagodonuts is motivated to get his Mitchell becuase then he can wear the officer's hat with his blues.

Now, are there other reasons/motivations for these people to do these things? Yeah, absolutely. And those "win" all the time, too.

And thats cool.  Its within the framework of the regulations and good taste.

A GT badge, thats right there in 39-1, along with the wheel hat.  Much as I'm not a fan of the wheel hat, I can still go with it.  Might not be too thrilled if C/CMSgt Shirttuck only wants to become a C/2Lt because of the hat and shoulder marks, but hey, that happens.

I've had cadets come in to see me to sign off on their NCSA applications, and I usually sit them down and ask them why they're applying to a specific NCSA.

Some say "Well, sir, I want to go to the AETCFC becuase I'm really interested in what it takes to become a fighter pilot.." (nice, thanks, good answer!)
or "I think engineering is really cool, so I wanna go to that Engineering Academy!" (alright, little simplistic but not bad)
or "I want to go to COS to advance my education and training rapidly to prepare myself to be of service to my community, state and nation.." (*thump* as I pass out on the floor from joy). 

But then I get answers like:

"Well, sir, I heard that Hawk Mountain is really cool, and they do really awesome-cool stuff there-" (OK, you're selling me...) "-and I wanna get a ranger tab like c/2LT Bufftuck." (aww, man, you ruined it..)
or
"Sir, I want to go to Honor Guard Academy because I think I like the honor of the whole thing and I want to be filled with honor and be taught honor in the most honorable way, and display honor at all possible opportunities, especially when I can bring honor to myself and CAP.. and you know, I want those cool shoe taps, cuz they just scream 'honor' to me.." (hmmm, looks like I need to give C/TSgt Dinglebarry a thesarus before his next promotion review board)
or
Cadet: "C/Capt Birdpoo told me that if I go to NBB, I get a cool beret."
Me: "Is that the only reason you want to go to Oshkosh, cadet?"
Cadet: "Why, sir? Are there other reasons?"
Me: [repeatedly striking head against file cabinet]

I'm serious: I very seldom had a cadet say "I want to go to Hawk Moutain so I can learn really cool ES stuff and bring that knowledge back to the unit so we can make our super-awesome ground team that much better, sir!"
or
"I want to be the next NCOIC of the unit honor guard, so I want to go to honor guard academy to get that knowledge."

No, they go because they want to come back with some piece of bling-bling that they have that their peers don't have.

Call me crazy, but it just seems to me that they're not going there for the development benefit...

^^^Simply amazing NIN

I think the nail has been driven through concrete.

Quote from: tsrup on March 24, 2011, 12:02:55 AM
^^^Simply amazing NIN

I think the nail has been driven through concrete.

Yeah, I have a tendency to toss a B61 when a hand grenade will do. :)

BTW, on re-reading, I need to be clear:  each of the  programs I may have listed themselves do not specifically promote, engender or encourage their participants and graduates to act like bunionheads.  I think Hawk Mtn, EAA, HGA, etc are all excellent programs in their own right for what they do. 

Quote from: NIN on March 24, 2011, 12:57:24 AMYeah, I have a tendency to toss a B61 when a hand grenade will do. :)

Anything worth doing, is worth over doing... >:D

I don't have a problem with Hawk Mountain or the training that the site provides.

I have had several members of my home unit come back from Hawk and it wasn't about the Tab or the Beret that WV used to issue for Hawk or the belt it was the fact that they had knowledge that they used to help train other members of the ground team. It was never about me me me or well I'm better then you.

I have a problem with the cadet or senior who comes back calls them selves a Ranger when nothing CAP does comes close to earning the title of Ranger ( I am saying this as I look at my fiance's brothers Ranger Tab from his Army Days) or the I'm better then you attitude but doesn't share what they learned with their unit.

I know a Region Commander who wears a CAP Ranger strip. He doesn't flaunt the fact that he's been there and has my up most respect and I'd follow him in the feild anyday.

As NiN said its not just Hawk. I earned the NHGA Patch as have some other members of my wing. 98% of us that have earned it opt not to wear it but are actively involved in training a Wing Honor Guard.

If it was up to me CAP would only need 3 patches maybe 4 but thats a different thread which won't be started as it would be beating a dead horse.

I have no problem with Hawk's training or dedication to its program.   Heck, I don't even mind a little swagger from attendees.

What I do have a problem with is their insistence that CAPM 39-1 doesn't apply to the program.

Swagger among peers can be fun for everyone and an incentive to get off your butt and do something - peers as in
people who have had relatively equal experience and opportunity within the organization.

Among non-peers, it can be the most counterproductive tool in your kit - lording an experience or skill over others who haven't even
had the chance to try or never will.  (i.e. two cadet majors who took different paths in CAP comparing bling or arguing NESA vs. HMRS
is different from a cadet major showing off to a bunch of SrA's, or insinuating he is somehow "better" than them).

But one lesson that escapes many of our unit commanders and other leaders is how important the correction of in appropriate
swagger is in terms of establishing ones place in the universe, and how harmful it can be to all involved to allow inappropriate swagger
to continue - whether as the example or the member with an inflated ego.

If we just told more people to "knock it off", we'd have less home unit issues.

Quote from: CivilAirPatrol1996 on March 22, 2011, 11:10:17 PM
I just dont understand why you little [censored]s have to argue over petty crap (like how hard it is).C/CMSgt. William Adams CAP

Cadet Adams,

Part of being an NCO(even a cadet version) is discretion.  Your tone is overstepping some serious boundaries and I suggest you tone it down a notch.  There is nothing wrong with having a bit of pride in your accomplishments; however, name calling is not only disrespectful, but it also draws attention away from the meaning you are trying to get across.  It is also unbecoming of an NCO.

I think he may have left the building.

I certainly hope not... I wish that he direct some of that surplus testosterone that he was throwing out earlier to man up, learn from his mistake, and move forward.  This is a great board, where I feel he could learn and contribute a great deal. 

I completed HMRS staff training in 2009, and I do agree that it is a challenging program, both physically and mentally. I learned quite a few things that helped me greatly with my GTM quals. I also wound up with trench foot and about a dozen blisters from both pairs of my boots being perpetually soaked for the whole week, due in large part to inattentive cadet medics. In addition to that nastiness, I watched cadets from my wing, even some of my friends, pick up that infamous "ranger attitude", and that negatively affected my view of HMRS the most. They picked up an elitist, "I'm better than everyone" mindset that was only enhanced by all the fancy bling that they give out at the school. That attitude, which was made to look acceptable by the staff at Hawk, makes cadets look like fools in training environments that require learning new things, accepting new ideas, or more difficult activities. After I completed Cadet Survival School in 2010, I realized how backwards the HMRS training is. I still think the ES training at Hawk is great, but I encourage other cadets to refrain from embracing the less favorable parts of the school.

QuoteI also wound up with trench foot and about a dozen blisters from both pairs of my boots being perpetually soaked for the whole week, due in large part to inattentive cadet medics

Generally speaking those types of injuries are due in large part to you not paying attention to your own feet....basic ranger skills that you would have been signed off as profecient in, include general foot care, blister care and recognition, treatment and prevention of trench foot.  Medics doing cursurary foot checks at the end of the training day should have noticed that you saying you were ok didnt match up with what they may have been seeing, but thats still a more you than them sort of deal.

mk

Which also highlights a good reason why there should never be an insinuation that CAP staff are providing any sort of health care or treatment, and that cadet should never, ever, be charged with that.

Quote from: RWitkowski on May 06, 2011, 08:04:50 PM
I completed HMRS staff training in 2009, and I do agree that it is a challenging program, both physically and mentally. I learned quite a few things that helped me greatly with my GTM quals. I also wound up with trench foot and about a dozen blisters from both pairs of my boots being perpetually soaked for the whole week, due in large part to inattentive cadet medics. In addition to that nastiness, I watched cadets from my wing, even some of my friends, pick up that infamous "ranger attitude", and that negatively affected my view of HMRS the most. They picked up an elitist, "I'm better than everyone" mindset that was only enhanced by all the fancy bling that they give out at the school. That attitude, which was made to look acceptable by the staff at Hawk, makes cadets look like fools in training environments that require learning new things, accepting new ideas, or more difficult activities. After I completed Cadet Survival School in 2010, I realized how backwards the HMRS training is. I still think the ES training at Hawk is great, but I encourage other cadets to refrain from embracing the less favorable parts of the school.

Who in there correct frame of mind places cadets in charge of ANYTHING medical?

And how would you explain that to another child's parent?

Angry parent : " who lets a 16 year old be a medical officer?"
CAP member: "uh....... here is the wing commander, talk to him"
Wing Commander: "WHAT????"

^ I'm pretty sure that's how that would play out....

Quote from: RWitkowski on May 06, 2011, 08:04:50 PM
I completed HMRS staff training in 2009, and I do agree that it is a challenging program, both physically and mentally. I learned quite a few things that helped me greatly with my GTM quals. I also wound up with trench foot and about a dozen blisters from both pairs of my boots being perpetually soaked for the whole week, due in large part to inattentive cadet medics. In addition to that nastiness, I watched cadets from my wing, even some of my friends, pick up that infamous "ranger attitude", and that negatively affected my view of HMRS the most. They picked up an elitist, "I'm better than everyone" mindset that was only enhanced by all the fancy bling that they give out at the school. That attitude, which was made to look acceptable by the staff at Hawk, makes cadets look like fools in training environments that require learning new things, accepting new ideas, or more difficult activities. After I completed Cadet Survival School in 2010, I realized how backwards the HMRS training is. I still think the ES training at Hawk is great, but I encourage other cadets to refrain from embracing the less favorable parts of the school.

If you need a medic of any kind to tell you that your feet are having issues, stay the heck out of the field. It is YOUR responsibility to identify any issues with your body that are arising. If you cannot fix them yourself, you seek out medical care until you find someone who can fix it. Don't even try to blame your feet on the medics, that's your problem.

Quote from: NCRblues on May 06, 2011, 09:55:11 PMWho in there correct frame of mind places cadets in charge of ANYTHING medical?

Spend some time with Google and yo will find any number of photos of cadets with stethescopes and references to "triage", "sick call", etc.  Some are self-appointed, some are overtly part of the health staff at various activities. 

Some are older cadets who are EMT's in the non-CAP world, some have only had advanced first aid, first responder or the like.

NIN tends to post a lot of good stuff.

I do believe most of the "tude" comes from within the cadet ranks, not the activities themselves. However I tend to believe it is the cadet staff at the activities having too much free reign in establishing the attitudes.

Two situations  (based on personal experience):

1) Cadets plan to go to Honor Guard Academy 2005 in order to learn those Suh-Weet rifle spins and to bring that back to their unit color guard. They go, they learn, they wear the uncomfortable uniforms, and they end up heading home with nicer rifles than the unit springfield wood replicas, as well as training the unit color guard to a better level with more understanding of the basic functions.

2) Cadets plan to go to Hawk Mountain to be a "Ranger" and for the Suh-weet patches, whistles and what not. They don't really do anything in ES post event, and have an issue when told to take off the Hawk patch he was told he can wear AT Hawk (but who knows) from their left BDU sleeve because that's not actually authorized in the wing.

The issue I always had is that MOST of the "tude" in my area were Hawk folks. Blue Beret is the closest event to us, and yes, some people got the "tude", but most were Hawk. I've run into very few HGA attendees outside the 3 that went with me during 2005 and one that went before it was an NCSA.

Now, I don't think that it's the Senior staff nurturing the attitude at the activities. I DO believe it's the Cadet Staff with little oversight from Senior staff when it does happen. Tie that in with the cadet's initial expectation and you get...the "tude"

I have even this issue WIWAC just from an encampment. I went to one, and luckily my attitude didn't change from before I went. The encampment was run pretty much all by cadets, with little interaction from the Senior Members, heck WIWAC there wasn't much interaction between cadets and SM's, and I am glad to see that that has changed. I saw cadets later on in my "cadet career" that went to encampment calling it just the one word "basic" with an I am better than you attitude and they didn't seem to care what anyone had to say. As a cadet commander I tried to make sure that it didn't happen anymore. Before a cadet would go to encampment we would sit down with them, myself and a couple of SM's and talk to them about encampment and what to expect when y get there, and how it comes into play in the squadron. Trying to make sure that everything went smoothly as possible for the cadet. We didn't want any I am better than you attitudes, and we wanted everyone to get the training that they wanted.

Try talking to cadets before they go to any schools so that they know what to expect and how it comes into play at the squadron, and what you expect of them when they return. Most of the time I am sure you want them to take a role of element leader or some sort of role model. The attitude doesn't help them to do that, and make sure they know that.

Quote from: PA Guy on May 12, 2010, 07:32:49 PM

Quote from: CAPcadet902 on May 11, 2010, 04:43:30 AM
I heard that Hawk Mt. is the hardest staff training program in all of CAP and no other school trains their staff as much. Is this true?

See the quote above of your original post wanting to know if HMRS staff training was the biggest and baddest around.  Now you say what you really wanted were other programs in CAP that might be just as or more challenging.  So here are a couple of suggestions you might consider, PJOC, Cadet Survival School, Combat Controllers Course or maybe the Civil Engineering Fam Course.  Some of these are NCSAs and some are run by Wings.  Check them out and see if they meet your needs.

Can u tell me more about Cadet Survival School??

Quote from: airdale12 on July 01, 2011, 04:52:50 PM
Can u tell me more about Cadet Survival School??

http://www.cadetsurvivalschool.org/ (http://www.cadetsurvivalschool.org/)

Quite possibly the most bad-[FPOC] CAP activity ever.

Quote from: tsrup on March 23, 2011, 01:47:18 AM
Slow your roll Cadet Adams,

Many Colonels frequent this forum, some from your wing.  With your name and unit number posted it would be in your best interest not to be openly disrespecting CAP officers (read: Senior Members).  I advise that you reread the code of conduct for the forum, and not get too worked up over some of the opinions you find on this board, especially ones from threads that are almost a year old.

If the response that are given to cadets here by senior members are taking in consideration, many of them wouldnt be Captains, Majors, and others.

Quote from: DC on July 01, 2011, 04:57:16 PM

Quote from: airdale12 on July 01, 2011, 04:52:50 PM
Can u tell me more about Cadet Survival School??

http://www.cadetsurvivalschool.org/ (http://www.cadetsurvivalschool.org/)

Quite possibly the most bad-[FPOC] CAP activity ever.

True DAT!  Unfortunately CSS (http://www.cadetsurvivalschool.org) will not occur this year because its creator/director/dude in charge is out doing his real job [bringing it to the bad guys].  I too am on CSS staff and within walking distance of the CSS head dude in charge.  We talked about it over chow and there just isn't a way for CSS to happen this summer.  A winter CSS?  Perhaps...stay tuned.

On a side note, as someone who has been to HMRS and NESA, CSS is by far the BEST activity CAP has to offer, hands down.  Its graduates are few and far between and they remain discreet, yet professional.  For the most part, it's a word-of-mouth sort of thing.  The website gives good information, but head over to CadetStuff where CSS is discussed in depth.  Here is the link to the 2010 discussion. (http://forums.cadetstuff.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=12917)

Quote from: airdale12 on July 01, 2011, 05:16:52 PMIf the response that are given to cadets here by senior members are taking in consideration, many of them wouldnt be Captains, Majors, and others.

I thought you requested to have your account deleted?

No one knew walking in you were a cadet.  It was only this post and some of you other comments that gave us any clue.

If you feel you need a more cadet-centric forum, perhaps Cadetstuff would be a better venue.

Regardless, time to learn that on the internet no one knows you are a dog and your ideas and comments live or die on their merits.

Quote from: Eclipse on July 01, 2011, 05:24:55 PM

Quote from: airdale12 on July 01, 2011, 05:16:52 PMIf the response that are given to cadets here by senior members are taking in consideration, many of them wouldnt be Captains, Majors, and others.

I thought you requested to have your account deleted?

No one knew walking in you were a cadet.  It was only this post and some of you other comments that gave us any clue.

If you feel you need a more cadet-centric forum, perhaps Cadetstuff would be a better venue.

Regardless, time to learn that on the internet no one knows you are a dog and your ideas and comments live or die on their merits.

I did want my account deleted but after PM a modulator he told me they dont do such thing, unfortunately!

Im not talking about me, im talking about what they said to the other cadet about respect, most of the senior member here show no respect. (One thing that surprised me about this forum)

Quote from: airdale12 on July 01, 2011, 06:21:01 PMI did want my account deleted but after PM a modulator he told me they dont do such thing, unfortunately!

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/31/Marvinthemartain.jpg)

Quote from: Did someone mean a Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator??

I had the cadet aspect pegged almost instantly. Can't hide that.. I don't think I've EVER seen a Senior Member go that ape silly about Hawk Mountain.

Quote from: airdale12 on July 01, 2011, 06:21:01 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on July 01, 2011, 05:24:55 PM

Quote from: airdale12 on July 01, 2011, 05:16:52 PMIf the response that are given to cadets here by senior members are taking in consideration, many of them wouldnt be Captains, Majors, and others.

I thought you requested to have your account deleted?

No one knew walking in you were a cadet.  It was only this post and some of you other comments that gave us any clue.

If you feel you need a more cadet-centric forum, perhaps Cadetstuff would be a better venue.

Regardless, time to learn that on the internet no one knows you are a dog and your ideas and comments live or die on their merits.

I did want my account deleted but after PM a modulator he told me they dont do such thing, unfortunately!

Im not talking about me, im talking about what they said to the other cadet about respect, most of the senior member here show no respect. (One thing that surprised me about this forum)

:Grabs popcorn and takes a seat: Let's watch and see what happens next.

Quote from: airdale12 on July 01, 2011, 06:21:01 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on July 01, 2011, 05:24:55 PM

Quote from: airdale12 on July 01, 2011, 05:16:52 PMIf the response that are given to cadets here by senior members are taking in consideration, many of them wouldnt be Captains, Majors, and others.

I thought you requested to have your account deleted?

No one knew walking in you were a cadet.  It was only this post and some of you other comments that gave us any clue.

If you feel you need a more cadet-centric forum, perhaps Cadetstuff would be a better venue.

Regardless, time to learn that on the internet no one knows you are a dog and your ideas and comments live or die on their merits.

I did want my account deleted but after PM a modulator he told me they dont do such thing, unfortunately!

Im not talking about me, im talking about what they said to the other cadet about respect, most of the senior member here show no respect. (One thing that surprised me about this forum)

Because we don't always agree with everyone and tend to correct people with poor grammar and spelling? I will admit that some of our members can be a bit adamant sometimes but I haven't personally seen anything lately where a cadet has been truly disrespected. We're allowed to disagree with each other. We frequently do.

Quote from: a2capt on July 01, 2011, 06:29:23 PM

Quote from: airdale12 on July 01, 2011, 06:21:01 PMI did want my account deleted but after PM a modulator he told me they dont do such thing, unfortunately!

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/31/Marvinthemartain.jpg)

Quote from: Did someone mean a Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator??

I had the cadet aspect pegged almost instantly. Can't hide that.. I don't think I've EVER seen a Senior Member go that ape silly about Hawk Mountain.

HAHAHAHAHA very funny

Quote from: airdale12 on July 01, 2011, 06:21:01 PMIm not talking about me, im talking about what they said to the other cadet about respect, most of the senior member here show no respect.

Define "respect" in this context.

Ignoring poor grammar and spelling?

Allowing flawed ideas, incorrect assumptions, and disrespectful attitudes to go unchallenged?

Ignore "evolving details" of a complaint alone as if they were never written, even though they call into question the integrity of the program?

Bear in mind you are the one who said repeatedly that our Safety Training was "BS", and that given the opportunity you would "leave".
You also complained about a process you clearly did not understand as is that were the fault of those involved.
An attitude like that presented to any good leader in CAP would be challenged and "corrected".

Or perhaps you don't believe that the requirements of member behavior and courtesy extend to internet forums?

Quote from: airdale12 on July 01, 2011, 06:21:01 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on July 01, 2011, 05:24:55 PM

Quote from: airdale12 on July 01, 2011, 05:16:52 PMIf the response that are given to cadets here by senior members are taking in consideration, many of them wouldnt be Captains, Majors, and others.

I thought you requested to have your account deleted?

No one knew walking in you were a cadet.  It was only this post and some of you other comments that gave us any clue.

If you feel you need a more cadet-centric forum, perhaps Cadetstuff would be a better venue.

Regardless, time to learn that on the internet no one knows you are a dog and your ideas and comments live or die on their merits.

I did want my account deleted but after PM a modulator he told me they dont do such thing, unfortunately!

Im not talking about me, im talking about what they said to the other cadet about respect, most of the senior member here show no respect. (One thing that surprised me about this forum)

Welcome to the suck.

People love to disagree on forums mainly because they feel has if they have immediate seniority and power over the others.  It is like a competitive game here. You keep coming back, and you win some, and you lose some....., and you just have to get back up and keep fighting, somewhat like a MMA match.....................NAUGHT !

In all seriousness, this is a forum. People typically don't see how they are when they write, because in their minds it is in a respectful tone, but it can come off entirely different. Others are just blunt and don't care how it comes off. Also, remember, things should be pointed out in a respectful way to get respect back (I'm not aiming it you specificly). Just don't build emotions on things, and you'll be fine.
And some of the names just give it away that, Eclipse can cast a shadow on some topics (I'm just making a crack at you Eclipse).

Quote from: jeders on July 01, 2011, 06:29:29 PM

Quote from: airdale12 on July 01, 2011, 06:21:01 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on July 01, 2011, 05:24:55 PM

Quote from: airdale12 on July 01, 2011, 05:16:52 PMIf the response that are given to cadets here by senior members are taking in consideration, many of them wouldnt be Captains, Majors, and others.

I thought you requested to have your account deleted?

No one knew walking in you were a cadet.  It was only this post and some of you other comments that gave us any clue.

If you feel you need a more cadet-centric forum, perhaps Cadetstuff would be a better venue.

Regardless, time to learn that on the internet no one knows you are a dog and your ideas and comments live or die on their merits.

I did want my account deleted but after PM a modulator he told me they dont do such thing, unfortunately!

Im not talking about me, im talking about what they said to the other cadet about respect, most of the senior member here show no respect. (One thing that surprised me about this forum)

:Grabs popcorn and takes a seat: Let's watch and see what happens next.

Haha. Enjoy some more "Drama: Life in the CAPTalk" parody of "Trama: Life in the ER"

Quote from: Eclipse on July 01, 2011, 06:40:35 PM

Quote from: airdale12 on July 01, 2011, 06:21:01 PMIm not talking about me, im talking about what they said to the other cadet about respect, most of the senior member here show no respect.

Define "respect" in this context.

Ignoring poor grammar and spelling?

Allowing flawed ideas, incorrect assumptions, and disrespectful attitudes to go unchallenged?

Ignore "evolving details" of a complaint alone as if they were never written, even though they call into question the integrity of the program?

Bear in mind you are the one who said repeatedly that our Safety Training was "BS", and that given the opportunity you would "leave".
You also complained about a process you clearly did not understand as is that were the fault of those involved.
An attitude like that presented to any good leader in CAP would be challenged and "corrected".

Or perhaps you don't believe that the requirements of member behavior and courtesy extend to internet forums?

Of course the members behavior and courtesy extend to internet forums, but as I have seen it my self they arent, including both cadets and senior members.

And yes I do believe that some of the safety course are BS! I just logged into eServices and my safety had expired, so I took a test on hydration and now IM SAFE AGAIN!!!

Quote from: Littleguy on July 01, 2011, 06:44:30 PM
Haha. Enjoy some more "Drama: Life in the CAPTalk" parody of "Trama: Life in the ER"

D00d, could I use that?  :P

Quote from: HGjunkie on July 01, 2011, 09:44:38 PM

Quote from: Littleguy on July 01, 2011, 06:44:30 PM
Haha. Enjoy some more "Drama: Life in the CAPTalk" parody of "Trama: Life in the ER"

D00d, could I use that?  :P

Sure. It won't stop airing around here, so lets just make it bigger ;D

Quote from: Littleguy on July 01, 2011, 11:37:25 PM

Quote from: HGjunkie on July 01, 2011, 09:44:38 PM

Quote from: Littleguy on July 01, 2011, 06:44:30 PM
Haha. Enjoy some more "Drama: Life in the CAPTalk" parody of "Trama: Life in the ER"

D00d, could I use that?  :P

Sure. It won't stop airing around here, so lets just make it bigger ;D

If you say so...


"Drama: Life in the CAPTalk" parody of "Trama: Life in the ER"

Quote from: HGjunkie on July 01, 2011, 11:59:42 PM

Quote from: Littleguy on July 01, 2011, 11:37:25 PM

Quote from: HGjunkie on July 01, 2011, 09:44:38 PM

Quote from: Littleguy on July 01, 2011, 06:44:30 PM
Haha. Enjoy some more "Drama: Life in the CAPTalk" parody of "Trama: Life in the ER"

D00d, could I use that?  :P

Sure. It won't stop airing around here, so lets just make it bigger ;D

If you say so...


"Drama: Life in the CAPTalk" parody of "Trama: Life in the ER"

Great show.

I usually just sit around and read through topics like this, and even though the question has been answered (somewhat) and debated, I am going to take a swing at it.

Nathan and NIN put it perfectly: everyone who attends their particular NCSA has their own view of "their" activity and others. I am a Blue Beret and a COS graduate. One of the reasons I haven't gone to other NSCAs is they aren't what I am interested in. Hawk seems cool (and to some the best) but I do not fancy myself as physically fit enough to endure the entire activity. And while I am interested in Honor Guard, I don't want to go to HGA, not because of the attitudes of those that have gone, but because I can read the manual and pretty much learn what I want at my own pace and don't have to pay the price of actually going to the activity. I know cadets who have gone to all above mentioned activities and more. In our minds, yes, we are the best and we survived the toughest activity out there, but it is to each his own.

It was said earlier that HMRS Staff training was the hardest thing someone had ever done. The point they were trying to make is that it is truly to each his own. At the time that I was at the activity, COS was the hardest thing I had ever done. The next year, I went to NBB. At that moment it was the hardest thing I had ever done. Both of them are equal in my mind as to the "level of difficulty", but for different reasons. They are also up there with studying for and taking my Spaatz. Every activity available to cadets challenges everyone in a different way, they are meant to.

Now that I have put my 2 cents (sense) in, I will sit back and continue with the regular programming.

Quote from: CAPC/officer125 on July 02, 2011, 04:25:48 AM
I usually just sit around and read through topics like this, and even though the question has been answered (somewhat) and debated, I am going to take a swing at it.

Nathan and NIN put it perfectly: everyone who attends their particular NCSA has their own view of "their" activity and others. I am a Blue Beret and a COS graduate. One of the reasons I haven't gone to other NSCAs is they aren't what I am interested in. Hawk seems cool (and to some the best) but I do not fancy myself as physically fit enough to endure the entire activity. And while I am interested in Honor Guard, I don't want to go to HGA, not because of the attitudes of those that have gone, but because I can read the manual and pretty much learn what I want at my own pace and don't have to pay the price of actually going to the activity. I know cadets who have gone to all above mentioned activities and more. In our minds, yes, we are the best and we survived the toughest activity out there, but it is to each his own.

It was said earlier that HMRS Staff training was the hardest thing someone had ever done. The point they were trying to make is that it is truly to each his own. At the time that I was at the activity, COS was the hardest thing I had ever done. The next year, I went to NBB. At that moment it was the hardest thing I had ever done. Both of them are equal in my mind as to the "level of difficulty", but for different reasons. They are also up there with studying for and taking my Spaatz. Every activity available to cadets challenges everyone in a different way, they are meant to.

Now that I have put my 2 cents (sense) in, I will sit back and continue with the regular programming.

Laaaaammee. Commercials in the middle of my programming? What is all this sense  :o? It is ruining the bickering and the argueing! C'mon with this, Eclipse and AirDale were in a nice bout about random CAPTalk topics. Eclipse had AirDale on the round, but AirDale was gettin right back up afer that hard blow.

Other thaan the top, I second what you just said.

Quote from: CAPC/officer125 on July 02, 2011, 04:25:48 AMIt was said earlier that HMRS Staff training was the hardest thing someone had ever done. The point they were trying to make is that it is truly to each his own. At the time that I was at the activity, COS was the hardest thing I had ever done. The next year, I went to NBB. At that moment it was the hardest thing I had ever done. Both of them are equal in my mind as to the "level of difficulty", but for different reasons. They are also up there with studying for and taking my Spaatz. Every activity available to cadets challenges everyone in a different way, they are meant to.

The "hardest thing you've ever done" doesn't make something the "hardest (and by implication most legit) thing in CAP".  Moving outside one's personal comfort zone is the point of CAP, even for Seniors, but the difference between "high adventure" and "operational readiness" seems to be lost on many people making these assertions.

Here's a thought - instead of having national adventure activities which stress training not usable in CAP, and then as an afterthought trying to squeeze that training into the CAP system, why not make the basis of the training the CAP system, either through prerequisite or initial training, and then move into the more advanced aspects of whatever your HAA wants to provide.

That way no one could call into question the baseline abilities of your participants.  As we have it today, HMRS provides a curriculum which essentially
deems CAP's curriculum as irrelevant, and only bothers to task and qualify members if they deem it important to ask.  Then these participants return
to their home squadrons with all sorts of "training", none or which is of any value to a mission until the generalized skills are re-tasked into CAP slots.

Done the other way, the argument could always be "we're first and foremost CAP responders, always ready for the call, with training above and
beyond the average member, our primary mission is to maintain readiness for CAP operations...".  This, of course, pre-supposes that anyone at HMRS actually perceives a problem with reputation, which does not appear to be the case, and until that happens, or changed is forced from above, status quo will remain.

And if it isn't implied, or hasn't already been explicitly stated here a dozen times, most of us literally and honestly don't care about HMRS.  The percentage of participants, especially West of Kentucky, is so small as to be statistically zero.  The only time it comes up is when we have to
deal with the fallout of their actions, either during a mission or back at their home unit, when their noise and attitude causes ripples
that far exceed their actual place in the framework.  You simply don't have those issues with NESA or CSS people, or any of the other
NCSA's for the most part.

(http://www.dilbert.com/dyn/str_strip/000000000/00000000/0000000/100000/20000/6000/000/126079/126079.strip.gif)

I never in a million years thought that the philosophy class I took for a general ed requirement would actually teach me something.
We have two different philosophies on epistemology here.
A priori knowledge is knowledge that is known independently of experience (that is, it is non-empirical, or arrived at beforehand, usually by reason) and A posteriori knowledge is knowledge that is known by experience (that is, it is empirical, or arrived at afterward).
See some folks on here "know" things even though they have never BTDT, (the A priori group) and those that have BTDT that have experienced things cant possibly understand how someone who has never BTDT can make a statement about something that they themselves have not done.
Then there are some folks on here are never wrong and you are never right, just ask them.  :)

Even those with prior experience with Hawk Mountain are in no position to state that it is the 'the hardest in CAP' until they have experience with every single activity CAP has to offer. Since that is impossible, for all practical purposes, then the statement is invalid.

As far as I'm concerned, this entire endeavor is pointless, it doesn't matter which activity is the hardest. Each has a specific purpose and a target audience. Go to the activities you are interested in, not the ones that are 'hardest' because you want to show off.