Losing the term "Officer" as a generic term for Senior Members

Started by Eclipse, January 16, 2008, 12:20:00 AM

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Eclipse

Any chance we can do away with this remnant of He Who Shall Remain Nameless as well?

Nothing official in any of the regs has been changed, nor has eServices, the WMU, our ID cards or the grade structure.  It is an improper description of a large portion of our members, and it isn't even used consistently by the very people who push it.

Senior Member has worked for decades, but if we need a different term "Officer" isn't it. 

In posts, docs, and emails I have recently seen:

"Officer without grade" (for SMWOG)

"Officer NCO's"

All adult members are not officers, and not all officers are adult members, but all senior members are adults.


"That Others May Zoom"

isuhawkeye

since we are killing off all the other Iowa improvements go right ahead.

That little tidbit came from Sgt Gorahm of the Iowa wing. 

NIN

I don't know... I don't think its so bad (however, we surely need a replacement for "officer without grade".. Gag. That's heinous!). 

I've used "adult officers," "adult NCOs" (however, we don't have any out here right now) and "officers" for awhile now.  Everybody seems to "get" it.

When I say "senior members" to non-CAP folks, its almost taken to mean "Members who are senior citizens."  I did not encounter that confusion when I lived in the Midwest, only when I moved to New England.  Not sure why.

I don't think that calling what is now a 'senior member without grade' an 'officer candidate' would be that far off the mark.

YMMV, of course.



Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: NIN on January 16, 2008, 12:39:39 AM
I don't know... I don't think its so bad (however, we surely need a replacement for "officer without grade".. Gag. That's heinous!). 

I've used "adult officers," "adult NCOs" (however, we don't have any out here right now) and "officers" for awhile now.  Everybody seems to "get" it.

When I say "senior members" to non-CAP folks, its almost taken to mean "Members who are senior citizens."  I did not encounter that confusion when I lived in the Midwest, only when I moved to New England.  Not sure why.

I don't think that calling what is now a 'senior member without grade' an 'officer candidate' would be that far off the mark.

YMMV, of course.





I have hated the term "Senior Member" for many years before The Nameless One.

First of all, if we are the "Seniors" what are the cadets?  Juniors?  Now that we actually have "Junior Cadets" what are the regular cadets? 

Also, since "Senior Member" is the first rank one gets when one joins as an adult, we are just about the only organization where a person who is the most junior member is called a "Senior" member.  Until he has been in for 6 months, then he loses his seniority.

Also, I have trouble calling an 18 year old a "Senior" anything.
Another former CAP officer

RiverAux

Well, all but a few dozen adults (the few NCOs) are actually CAP officers  or "senior members", so it makes a lot of sense to me.  Someone suggested changing "senior member" to "Officer Candidate", and that wouldn't be too bad. 

Eclipse

Quote from: RiverAux on January 16, 2008, 01:07:51 AM
Someone suggested changing "senior member" to "Officer Candidate", and that wouldn't be too bad. 

But that's not right either, because not all members are "Officer Candidates", either.  There is a similar handful who profess not to care enough to bother with the grade and never progress.

"That Others May Zoom"

MIKE

I thought it was too cop-like in useage, but I suppose that figures.

How about Auxiliarist instead?  :P
Mike Johnston

jimmydeanno

How about "Adult Volunteer"  :P Everyone knows what that is...
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

NIN

Quote from: Eclipse on January 16, 2008, 01:26:02 AM
But that's not right either, because not all members are "Officer Candidates", either.  There is a similar handful who profess not to care enough to bother with the grade and never progress.

And we wish to reward only partial participation in the program?

Face it: whether someone prefers to "bother" with the rank or not, it exists in the Civil Air Patrol, a paramilitary program.  If we just make them a buck 2nd Lt, then they can stay that way. Its no different than staying as a slick-sleeve SM...

T'would eliminate what you call "an officer without grade" (since there wouldn't be any), or we just call a dude w/o grade a "member" (ugh, that's not nice, either... Don't like it..)

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Eclipse

Quote from: NIN on January 16, 2008, 02:20:28 AM
And we wish to reward only partial participation in the program?

I didn't say I liked it, but just as with the NCO's, there's a handful of them out there...

As you said, I personally never see a specific connection with Senior Member and Senior Citizen around here.

"That Others May Zoom"

mikeylikey

Wow.....we did this last year in another thread, and here we are again.  I will type what I typed before.  The vast majority of Adults in CAP wear a recognizable Rank device (some would say Commissioned Officer Rank Insignia) so why can't we call ourselves "Officers".  Those NCO's that choose to be CAP NCO's are likewise, OFFICERS....just of the Non-Commissioned Variety.  

You, me and everyone else wearing an Officer defice is in fact a CAP OFFICER.  No, we are not all CAP Corporate Officers, but we are Officers non the less.  

Those Members awaiting initial promotion to an Officer Rank do need their title changed.  I am not sure what that will be.  I never liked SMWOG.  

Why do you want to move away from referring to ourselves as Officers?  What is the big deal.  Who is it hurting.  Why don't we focus on getting the term changed to Auxiliary Officer?  We need to pump up the fact we are the AIR FORCE AUXILIARY!  The new VSAF shirts should read the "Volunteer, Air Force Auxiliary", since we are perfroming an AFAM!  That is where I think this idea stemmed from.  I could be mistaken.

To turn mindset, I would even go with Mike's idea and change the title to Auxiliarist.  That is more in line with what we will (or should) be doing.
What's up monkeys?

RogueLeader

We could call them Polliwogs  ;)

While I don't like the term Senior Member, I don't think there is going to be anything that really clicks for all the categories of Adults.
WYWG DP

GRW 3340

Eclipse

Quote from: RogueLeader on January 16, 2008, 02:41:58 AM
While I don't like the term Senior Member, I don't think there is going to be anything that really clicks for all the categories of Adults.

And that's probably the ultimate answer there isn't a good one.

To Mikey's points, part of the problem is that the Officer/Senior member designator is not just a generic member term, but also an adult / minor status indicator within the organization.

And because the term officer means different things on both sides of that fence as well, including (internal) legal definition for CPT and similar issues, calling us "officers" is needlessly confusing to everyone involved.

On one level we're all officers...except for those that aren't...

My suggestion is to simply go back to senior members, as most continue to use it anyway, and be done with it.  Since little was changed officially, its a two-line email and we move one.

As I recall it wasn't even made offcial by HWSRN, just a "suggestion" while NHQ worked on a better term.

"That Others May Zoom"

RiverAux

I would estimate that the number of CAP members who stay active in the program but refuse to promote to 2nd Lt after six months is probably less than 1%.  SM is just a temporary grade and "Officer Candidate" is a pretty accurate description of the people in it.  And since the number of NCOs is also less than 1%, the more generic "Officers" description of the adults is pretty accurate.

Short Field

SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

BillB

Wouldn't be simplier for anyone above the age of 21 and those below the age of 21 not a cadet just to be called Members? That way you have two classes of membership in CAP
Cadet or Member.  Sure the cadet is also a member, but first and formost he/she is a Cadet.
Why come up with all kinds of new names when all you need to do is drop the word Senior?
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

RiverAux

Well, since no one seems to have a problem with "Cadet", maybe the adults need to be "Senior Cadets"?

Walkman

Quote from: RiverAux on January 16, 2008, 03:51:45 AM
Well, since no one seems to have a problem with "Cadet", maybe the adults need to be "Senior Cadets"?

I've been called "Space Cadet" in the past...  :D

As a current SMWOG (Feb 9th = 2nd Lt.), the name hasn't bothered me. When I'm called to report it's 'Senior Member Walker". Our chaplain calls me "Officer Candidate Walker".

I'll agree that the arguments against the title are valid. It just hasn't been a big deal to me.

Nathan

Quote from: Walkman on January 16, 2008, 04:30:17 AM
''Senior Member Walker

:D

That...is...so...funny...

Sorry, I'm not making fun of your name. I just think that having a member be called "Senior Member Walker" would certainly make the argument to call everyone "Officers."

To be honest, I never really stopped using "Seniors" or "Senior Members." Maybe that's a bad thing, but no one has gotten ruffled about it.

Of course, if we want to do some REALLY "outside of the box" thinking, we could just eliminate the cadet officer from the program, and just transfer all cadet grades into a purely-enlisted rank structure like the ACA or Young Marines do...
Nathan Scalia

The post beneath this one is a lie.

Pylon

People call law enforcement officers (police officers) "Officer" even when they don't hold an "officer" rank.  For example, a police lieutenant and sergeant are both "officers". Is that confusing in our context?  Maybe.


As an aside, I also hate the term "senior member" and hope to see it replaced by some better term one day.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP