Rank Confusion

[Sapper168]

Being an enlisted army veteran, i still look around for the officer being called sir and saluted before realizing its me.  Dont know if i will ever really be used to it.

[lycan1138]

i was in the Naval JROTC and not only had to make the transition from cadet petty officer second class ( cadet E-5) i had to learn Air Force terms and try to learn to be an officer at the same time.

[FOgordo93]

While on vacation a few weeks ago to New York, I went to a CAP meeting and wore my flight suit. the squadron was kind of small but great people. Anyway, a Senior Master Sargent walked with me into the classroom where the cadets were. As soon as I step in the room, the cadet commander calls the room to attention. I just kinda looked around and the Sargent says, "sir that's for you!" I replied, "really?" "Yes sir it is, you're the only officer in the room. Tell them to take their seats." that has never happend to me before! And at the same meeting, they had a cadet by the sign in book and he stood straight faced and at parade rest. And as I walked by him, he snapped into the position of attention! Never had anything like that happen and probably never will again!

[vento]

While on vacation a few weeks ago to New York, I went to a CAP meeting and wore my flight suit. the squadron was kind of small but great people. Anyway, a Senior Master Sargent walked with me into the classroom where the cadets were. As soon as I step in the room, the cadet commander calls the room to attention. I just kinda looked around and the Sargent says, "sir that's for you!" I replied, "really?" "Yes sir it is, you're the only officer in the room. Tell them to take their seats." that has never happend to me before! And at the same meeting, they had a cadet by the sign in book and he stood straight faced and at parade rest. And as I walked by him, he snapped into the position of attention! Never had anything like that happen and probably never will again!

You guys are allowed to wear a flight suit to a meeting? Especially not immediately after a flying sortie? Wow!

[davidsinn]

While on vacation a few weeks ago to New York, I went to a CAP meeting and wore my flight suit. the squadron was kind of small but great people. Anyway, a Senior Master Sargent walked with me into the classroom where the cadets were. As soon as I step in the room, the cadet commander calls the room to attention. I just kinda looked around and the Sargent says, "sir that's for you!" I replied, "really?" "Yes sir it is, you're the only officer in the room. Tell them to take their seats." that has never happend to me before! And at the same meeting, they had a cadet by the sign in book and he stood straight faced and at parade rest. And as I walked by him, he snapped into the position of attention! Never had anything like that happen and probably never will again!

You guys are allowed to wear a flight suit to a meeting? Especially not immediately after a flying sortie? Wow!

Why not? It says for aircrew but doesn't specify when aircrew may wear it.

[vento]

^^^ not against regulation per se, it's just that I have not seen flight suit as the prescribed uniform of the day for squadron meetings, guess there is a first for everything. Sorry for turning this one into an uniform thread, now back to our normal programming about "Rank Confusion".

[Extremepredjudice]

I was on base, when I was a JROTC,  and some dumb sergeant laughs and calls us play soldiers, and tells us to get the ---- off the base...

He didn't see the major standing behind him... The major yelled at him for about 2 hours..

Hehe, he saluted us when we saw him again.

[Dragon 3-2]

This past encampment I was asked to wear my ACU's along with the Marine and Air Force reservists in their respective uniforms. since I only had one pair with me and no dress uniform, I had to revert back to CAP uniforms a few times during the week. naturally the cadets had a hard time with my enlisted rank when they arrived on Saturday. I got everything from "First Class Private" to Sergeant Major from basic's and cadet staff alike, which gave me a good laugh but I corrected them and asked to just be called PFC to make it easy for them. Sunday again I'm ACU's and the cadet staff have caught on and most of the basics. Then comes Monday's UOD for blues, I wear my CAP uniform and transform from a PFC to a 1st LT completely throwing off the cadets again, "First Private Lieutenant" was my favorite of the day. seeing that my flip flop was confusing them I decided to just stay in BDU's for the rest of encampment until graduation. I still got mix ups every now and then especially when in my national guard PT gear. by Saturday everyone was getting it right except this one cadet that saluted me  while I was in my ACU's and said "First Class Private Lieutenant Smith, thank you for helping us to understand the different rank structures" in all seriousness. I shook his hand and sent him on his way before the laughter got to me, that was the best mash up of my ranks yet

[Eclipse]

This past encampment I was asked to wear my ACU's along with the Marine and Air Force reservists in their respective uniforms.

Unless you were there in your military capacity with approval of your commander, you had no business in your ACU's as a CAP member.

[lordmonar]

This past encampment I was asked to wear my ACU's along with the Marine and Air Force reservists in their respective uniforms.

Unless you were there in your military capacity with approval of your commander, you had no business in your ACU's as a CAP member.

Right.....give it a rest.....why not ask why he was asked to wear his uniform.  I can think of several reasons to wear his military uniform.

[Eclipse]

Yes, I can, too.  They all start with "Wouldn't it be cool if...".

Our regulations are clear, and so are the ones that authorize wear for members of the military as well.  The fallout, when it occurs, is not pretty.

[Ned]

This past encampment I was asked to wear my ACU's along with the Marine and Air Force reservists in their respective uniforms.

Unless you were there in your military capacity with approval of your commander, you had no business in your ACU's as a CAP member.

It sounds like your beef is with whoever asked him to wear the uniform, not with the guy following orders.

As an encampment commander I have on multiple occasions asked service members to wear their military uniforms during limited portions of encampment.  Just a couple of examples:

* Running/working the rifle range.  The base was very happy to check out the range and work the associated support if MAJ Lee, ARNG, was checking it out (and went to the required safety classes), but scratched their heads endlessly if Maj Lee, CAP tried to do so.

* Checking out and operating a govt vehicle.  After coordination by the SD, PFC Jones shows up with military license and creds to get a school bus, life is good.  1LT Jones, CAP - not so much.  After the vehicle is returned, back to CAP life (and uniform.)

*  Military Career Fair - a brief designated period during the encampment where recruiters and other military personnel talk about careers available in the military along with upsides and downsides of service.  If we have AD/reservists on the staff with something to contribute, I will ask them to suit up and help lead the discussion.  Then back to work as a CAP guy.

and so on.  The usefulness of "dual-career" folks at encampment is limited only by the imagination of the leaders involved.

If it helps, I agree with what I think was your basic premise - that CAP members performing CAP duties should almost always be wearing CAP uniforms, and should never wear military uniforms just to look cool or to impress cadets.

But that's not what you said when jumping down the throat of a service member.

[Eclipse]

These situations come up and no one raises their common sense or regs flag.

Yes, there are any number of times and places where being in the military may help CAP.  In those cases, as you said above, the
requirement is coordination with the State Director, and in many cases approval of the person's military commander.

This wasn't one of them.  I guarantee it.  The tone and timber of the post shows the "wasn't that cool" reasoning behind doing so.

One year we had a young man who had recently entered the Marine Reserves and was also our Cadet Commander.  He desperately
wanted to talk about Marine life and recruiting, so for the single session we had slated, we allowed him to wear his uniform.

Otherwise, as a CAP commander, I have no authority over members of the military, and they have no reason to obey my directives.
Further, the only authorization to be on the installation we use is through their CAP membership, not their military service.  Our host service
makes that very clear to people who show up to the gate in their military finest and are not on the MSA.

End of the world? obviously not, end of a military career if something goes fubar?  Possibly, and certainly CAP, Inc., has no reason to
stand behind someone who makes a mistake or breaks something if they aren't even serving as a member at the time it happens.

And Ned, while your examples above are likely from real world experience, none of that is supposed to be happening day-of or based
solely because of the random show-up of someone in CAP who also happens to be in the military.  The flipside risk is that the member takes
off their blue hat, puts on their green hat, and hacks off a local commander to the point that you never get to play there again.

[RiverAux]

There are probably some situations where having a dual member could be helpful as Ned describes, but if I was the CAP commander of the event I would require the military member to produce written approval from their commander for them to provide such assistance to CAP and clearly recognizing that they are doing it in their role as a military member.

So, if the Air NG/CAP guy checks out a truck and wrecks it, they won't be coming after CAP for the repair costs. 

[lordmonar]

These situations come up and no one raises their common sense or regs flag.

Yes, there are any number of times and places where being in the military may help CAP.  In those cases, as you said above, the
requirement is coordination with the State Director, and in many cases approval of the person's military commander.

This wasn't one of them.  I guarantee it.  The tone and timber of the post shows the "wasn't that cool" reasoning behind doing so.

One year we had a young man who had recently entered the Marine Reserves and was also our Cadet Commander.  He desperately
wanted to talk about Marine life and recruiting, so for the single session we had slated, we allowed him to wear his uniform.

Otherwise, as a CAP commander, I have no authority over members of the military, and they have no reason to obey my directives.
Further, the only authorization to be on the installation we use is through their CAP membership, not their military service.  Our host service
makes that very clear to people who show up to the gate in their military finest and are not on the MSA.

End of the world? obviously not, end of a military career if something goes fubar?  Possibly, and certainly CAP, Inc., has no reason to
stand behind someone who makes a mistake or breaks something if they aren't even serving as a member at the time it happens.

And Ned, while your examples above are likely from real world experience, none of that is supposed to be happening day-of or based
solely because of the random show-up of someone in CAP who also happens to be in the military.  The flipside risk is that the member takes
off their blue hat, puts on their green hat, and hacks off a local commander to the point that you never get to play there again.

No...Eclipse one again you are jumping to conclustions.  The poster only said he and a couple of Real Military Types were asked to wear their uniforms.  YOU immediately told hime he was wrong.  YOU never asked if it was coordinated.  YOU are the one who turned a guys cool been there done that story of humours uniform confustion into a "I KNOW MORE THEN YOU" thread.

Like I said .....get off your high horse and let's keep things in perspective. 

And I want you to know one thing.....you are wrong about your authority over military members.  AT A CAP FUNCTION CAP RULES.  And AD members there on AD orders supporting a CAP function had better be listening to the CAP commander or they will be in trouble.  If a CAP member disobeys your CAP orders then he is gone....does not matter if he is also AD military or a cop or a doctor.

Nothing changes because of the uniform you wear.

[Eclipse]

Nothing changes because of the uniform you wear.

Everything changes because of the uniform you wear.  If you aren't in a CAP uniform at a CAP activity, you aren't in CAP, especially for those
in the military who chose to wear their service uniform.

I don't need to ask the question, because it is irrelevant.  Dragon himself already added all the "fun" he had with his grade, etc., regardless, I would say
the odds are in my favor he was not there with authorization of his military commander, and at least 50/50 the SD is or was unaware of the situation
until, at a minimum, he or one of his RAPS walked into it.  I can guarantee you the SD nor his commander were the ones who "asked him to wear it",
so that only leaves the CAP people, who should not be doing that in the first place, since they don't have the authority to waive or change CAP's uniform
requirements at their whim.

[Eclipse]

"Well, you know, who cares, anyway? What's the big deal?"

Let me 'splain.

None of the Details^®, of themselves, really amount to much.  You can hand-pick just about any reg that doesn't directly kill people, and make the argument that they are meaningless. The devil and harm are in both the cumulative / effect of ignoring things which are simple and direct, and the subjective effect on credibility.

The cumulative is easy to see.  People ignore the little things, and before you know it, there are real issues of command and control, because everyone picks and chooses which "little thing" to ignore.  We all know of at least one major activity where this is the case, rumors and back channel about
things not going according to reg, etc., but people ignore it because they don't want to get involved, etc., then when something goes real bad,
those investigating ask "Why didn't anyone say something about this stuff?"

The subjective loss of credibility is more dangerous, because it isn't something you can control, and is hard to ever regain.  Someone like me, with more than a few years watching this kind of stuff, can see from 50K feet that the leaders of this activity have "issues" in regards to adherence and understanding of the regs, maybe this particular example is the sum total of that, maybe it isn't, but we all know how this works, and that calls into question the totality of the activity, because if they can't get something simple like uniforms and member status right, what else are they letting slip that might actually "matter"?

That's why we should care.

[Ned]

Everything changes because of the uniform you wear.  If you aren't in a CAP uniform at a CAP activity, you aren't in CAP, especially for those
in the military who chose to wear their service uniform.

Major non-concur. 

This is how CAP Urban Legends get started.  The clothes that you are wearing have little, if anything, to do with your CAP status.

Yes, the regs require that folks performing CAP duties wear a CAP uniform.  (A fairly recent change, BTW.  For most of our history, a uniform was only required if flying or working with cadets.)

But it is silly to suggest that a violation of a uniform regulation means that the person is not a member or not acting in the course and scope of their CAP duties. 

This is how those "Maj Smith lost power and crashed a CAP aircraft, but because he had taken off his BDU shirt, NHQ refused to cover him and his poor widow has to pay $587,000 to CAP" things get started.

Seriously, if a cadet is found wearing a civlian t-shirt and shorts at 0300 in the barracks on the way to the latrine, then the troop "isn't in CAP?"

Really?

You have as much authority over a CAP member at an activity as you ever do; regardless of what they are wearing. 

[Eclipse]

Seriously, if a cadet is found wearing a civlian t-shirt and shorts at 0300 in the barracks on the way to the latrine, then the troop "isn't in CAP?"

You and I both know this example has nothing to do with what we're discussing here.

We're talking about a member who willfully wears a different uniform with the specific intent to stand-out, be different, or use his influence with the other
service to his advantage.  In fact, in the examples you cite, the person would specifically not be on "CAP duty" because he is using his grade and standing to "work" for the other service.  In which case they need to be on orders and authorized by the SD.

Opinions would be different if the person decided to wear their police uniform, or bakery hat, but the results are not.  Either you're in CAP that day, or you aren't.

[RiverAux]

But it is silly to suggest that a violation of a uniform regulation means that the person is not a member or not acting in the course and scope of their CAP duties.

This is how those "Maj Smith lost power and crashed a CAP aircraft, but because he had taken off his BDU shirt, NHQ refused to cover him and his poor widow has to pay $587,000 to CAP" things get started.

FYI, CAP official training (in the form of the CD online training) is still highlighting two members whose families were refused benefits because they were not in proper uniform at the time of their crash.