Armed Forces soilders drinking at 18

[lordmonar]

Bottom line......are you an adult at 18 or not?

I think if the over 18 crowd were half way orgainised they would see that they are a major demographic and could get the law changed in 10 minutes.

On a moral issue.......I think it is just double talk....we want you to have all the responsibilities of an adult but none of the perks.  We won't let them have alcohol...but they can have children, operarate airplanes, own homes, vote, join the military, carry a gun........what is wrong with this picture?

The law got changed not because 18-21 year olds were getting into troulbe....but 18-21 year olds were giving it to their 14-18 year old school freinds.

[abdsp51]

Being able to serve shouldn't entitle one to drink.  We all know that booze impairs judgement and it really impairs the judgement on an 18-20 yo.  In Korea the legal age was 20, in Europe I know it was 18.  Serving in the military by no means should entitle one to exempt from any laws.  I have seen more harm come from people drinking and doing dope than I have anything else.

Then you need to read up on your laws.  The military is not exempt from any law, they fall under a different jurisdiction.  This jurisdiction gives a commander broad discretion.

I have seen ego kill more people than booze or dope myself.

I am not saying there isn't dangers involved but drinking is not the problem, it is lack of responsibility for ones actions.

If you can die for your country you should be able to have a beer, to suggest anything else is just insulting.

I know my laws very well thank you, we fall under both the UCMJ and other applicable laws. I have seen far more lack of responsibilty from an 18-19 year old service member than I have others. And there is still a rash of underage folks obtaining it from those legal to buy.  The law currently says you have to be 21 to buy and consume.   And what was meant by exempt from laws was simply because you enlist shouldnt exempt you from the age requirement to drink in CONUS. 

[Eclipse]

I have seen ego kill more people than booze or dope myself.

That's part of the paradigm for the military, and more so than in the civilian world.
Who has more ego than an 18 year old fresh out of BMT?

They seem to manage it well; for one thing they are no-mercy when it comes to DUI.

I don't know what our problem is.

The answer is in your question.

Bottom line......are you an adult at 18 or not?

No.

[RiverAux]

If we change the drinking age to 18 for everybody, I wouldn't have any particular problem with that.  But, just changing it for those in the military is dumb.  There are plenty of 18-21 year olds who aren't in the military who are putting their lives at risk for the city, state, or country doing various jobs, including standing in a highway construction zone holding a stop sign. 

[PHall]

If we change the drinking age to 18 for everybody, I wouldn't have any particular problem with that.  But, just changing it for those in the military is dumb.  There are plenty of 18-21 year olds who aren't in the military who are putting their lives at risk for the city, state, or country doing various jobs, including standing in a highway construction zone holding a stop sign.

Ask Congress and the Federal Highway Administration.
Congress was the one who passed the bill that made raising the drinking age to 21 a condition for a state to receive any Federal Highway funds.

[Ned]

C'mon guys, use your research skills.

The US previously allowed the states to set the drinking age, and many states indeed had it set at 18.  (Some 19 or 20; some 18 for beer and wine, older for mixed drinks, etc.).  Why was it changed?  What were the arguments and data to support the change?  (Hint: it had to do with accident and fatality rates plotted against age.)

Does every state have the age of majority set at 18?  (The answer will suprise most of you.)  Do not confuse the age of majority with the voting age.

Are there any other age-based restrictions in this country?  Think of things like handgun purchases in some states.  Try renting a car at the airport at age 18.  ("But I'm a legal adult!  I'm old enought to die for my country!  You have to let me rent a car!")  There might even be one or two lurking in the Constiution itself.

And what are the actual statistics of those European and other countries that allow drinking at age 18.  How do they compare to ours?

Ultimately this is a "line-drawing" exercise.  What factors should we use to draw this particular line? (Drinking at age 18.)

[cap235629]

Being able to serve shouldn't entitle one to drink.  We all know that booze impairs judgement and it really impairs the judgement on an 18-20 yo.  In Korea the legal age was 20, in Europe I know it was 18.  Serving in the military by no means should entitle one to exempt from any laws.  I have seen more harm come from people drinking and doing dope than I have anything else.

Then you need to read up on your laws.  The military is not exempt from any law, they fall under a different jurisdiction.  This jurisdiction gives a commander broad discretion.

I have seen ego kill more people than booze or dope myself.

I am not saying there isn't dangers involved but drinking is not the problem, it is lack of responsibility for ones actions.

If you can die for your country you should be able to have a beer, to suggest anything else is just insulting.

I know my laws very well thank you, we fall under both the UCMJ and other applicable laws. I have seen far more lack of responsibilty from an 18-19 year old service member than I have others. And there is still a rash of underage folks obtaining it from those legal to buy.  The law currently says you have to be 21 to buy and consume.   And what was meant by exempt from laws was simply because you enlist shouldnt exempt you from the age requirement to drink in CONUS.

The majority of active duty installations in CONUS fall under exclusive FEDERAL jurisdiction and therefore state and local laws do not apply. Please show me in the UCMJ where the offense of underage drinking even appears. The only way that your argument would even start to have any legal standing is if the commander used the UCMJ to address an off post/base incident and then the charge would fall under Article 92.

Now the assimilative crimes act (Title 18 USC sects. 7 and 13) is another thing altogether and generally is used for civilians who committ an offense on a federal reservation. So it might be an interesting tangent to pursue if you let that 18 year old airman drink at the club and arrest his 20 year old girlfriend and write her an 1805 to see the Magistrate. The difference is that blank check he wrote to Uncle Sam entitles him to the UCMJ

[Eclipse]

See Title 10, Pt IV, Ch 159 § 2683:
Relinquishment of legislative jurisdiction; minimum drinking age on military installations

As for UCMJ applicability, "Article 92, Failure to obey order or regulation. " is generally how they get you..

[abdsp51]

See Title 10, Pt IV, Ch 159 § 2683:
Relinquishment of legislative jurisdiction; minimum drinking age on military installations

As for UCMJ applicability, "Article 92, Failure to obey order or regulation. " is generally how they get you..

Quoted above Art 92,  every unit I have been in has had an alcohol policy letter done up that says basically you will not drink if under age and if you do drink and are caught this is what you will be charged with.  Not to mention various group or wing commander policies.  Again we are talking about service members here. 

[cap235629]

See Title 10, Pt IV, Ch 159 § 2683:
Relinquishment of legislative jurisdiction; minimum drinking age on military installations

As for UCMJ applicability, "Article 92, Failure to obey order or regulation. " is generally how they get you..

§ 2683. Relinquishment of legislative jurisdiction; minimum drinking age on military installations

(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the Secretary concerned may, whenever he considers it desirable, relinquish to a State, or to a Commonwealth, territory, or possession of the United States, all or part of the legislative jurisdiction of the United States over lands or interests under his control in that State, Commonwealth, territory, or possession. Relinquishment of legislative jurisdiction under this section may be accomplished
(1) by filing with the Governor (or, if none exists, with the chief executive officer) of the State, Commonwealth, territory, or possession concerned a notice of relinquishment to take effect upon acceptance thereof, or
(2) as the laws of the State, Commonwealth, territory, or possession may otherwise provide.
(b) The authority granted by subsection (a) is in addition to and not instead of that granted by any other provision of law.
(c)
(1) Except as provided in paragraphs (2) and (3), the Secretary concerned shall establish and enforce as the minimum drinking age on a military installation located in a State the age established by the law of that State as the State minimum drinking age.
(2)
(A) In the case of a military installation located—
(i) in more than one State; or
(ii) in one State but within 50 miles of another State or Mexico or Canada,
the Secretary concerned may establish and enforce as the minimum drinking age on that military installation the lowest applicable age.
(B) In subparagraph (A), the term "lowest applicable age" means the lowest minimum drinking age established by the law—
(i) of a State in which a military installation is located; or
(ii) of a State or jurisdiction of Mexico or Canada that is within 50 miles of such military installation.

(3)

(A) The commanding officer of a military installation may waive the requirement of paragraph (1) if such commanding officer determines that the exemption is justified by special circumstances.
(B) The Secretary of Defense shall define by regulations what constitute special circumstances for the purposes of this paragraph.

(4) In this subsection:

(A) The term "State" includes the District of Columbia.
(B) The term "minimum drinking age" means the minimum age or ages established for persons who may purchase, possess, or consume alcoholic beverages.

The highlighted section is my point.  May as in the permissive, not shall as in the instructional.  The discretion is written exactly as I explained.

The specific language in the drinking age provision relies on the Secretary invoking Paragraph 1
Amazing what you learn when you go to the United States Army Military Police School....

[abdsp51]

Which oh wait is 21 in all 50 states.

[cap235629]

The specific language in the drinking age provision relies on the Secretary invoking Paragraph 1

Which oh wait is 21 in all 50 states.

Your point?

[abdsp51]

Point is 21 is 21.  This is an age old topic that has been around forever and will continue too do so.  Over all drinking at 18 is a bad idea and most 18-20 yo are incapable of handling that level of responsibilty.  Most refuse to take responsibility for their actions as is.  Service secretaries have enough on their plate to deal with rather than invoking an 18 yo's ability to drink.

[cap235629]

Point is 21 is 21.  This is an age old topic that has been around forever and will continue too do so.  Over all drinking at 18 is a bad idea and most 18-20 yo are incapable of handling that level of responsibilty.  Most refuse to take responsibility for their actions as is.  Service secretaries have enough on their plate to deal with rather than invoking an 18 yo's ability to drink.

You have it backwards. The drinking age will only be moved to 21 if the service secretary invokes his /her privilege under title 10, not until.

[abdsp51]

Beg to differ most installations have more than likely assimilated local statutes and laws regarding the issue, and I would love to see a 18 yo service member play barracks lawyer on it.  Every yard I have been CONUS wide the standard is 21.

[cap235629]

Beg to differ most installations have more than likely assimilated local statutes and laws regarding the issue, and I would love to see a 18 yo service member play barracks lawyer on it.  Every yard I have been CONUS wide the standard is 21.

I agree and I can't think of a CONUS installation that hasn't.  I was just pointing out that you had the process backwards.

The law also gives the local commander the final say as to what is an appropriate exception to the rule i.e. command sponsored functions, just like I said.

The assimilated crimes act does not apply.

[MIKE]

The DDR program must be working real well. 

[SABRE17]

Lest I recall the time I was almost killed in a Drunk driving crash/hit and run by a 41 Year old. yeah she knew better, yeah she drove anyways. Age is no cure for stupidity, nor equivalency for responsibility.

In fact in a few cases my senior class was incredibly more responsible then their parents generation.


I now return thy to thy regularly scheduled topic.
that is all

[JayT]

Lest I recall the time I was almost killed in a Drunk driving crash/hit and run by a 41 Year old. yeah she knew better, yeah she drove anyways. Age is no cure for stupidity, nor equivalency for responsibility.

In fact in a few cases my senior class was incredibly more responsible then their parents generation.


I now return thy to thy regularly scheduled topic.
that is all

Yup, nope, argument doesn't work. The 21 age limit is based off of research and statistics, not a few anecdotal  stories some guys you go to school with.

[davidsinn]

Lest I recall the time I was almost killed in a Drunk driving crash/hit and run by a 41 Year old. yeah she knew better, yeah she drove anyways. Age is no cure for stupidity, nor equivalency for responsibility.

In fact in a few cases my senior class was incredibly more responsible then their parents generation.


I now return thy to thy regularly scheduled topic.
that is all

Yup, nope, argument doesn't work. The 21 age limit is based off of research and statistics, not a few anecdotal  stories some guys you go to school with.

How do we compare to Europe?