Uh oh.. this is going to put a crimp in transportation

[NIN]

http://www.npr.org/2014/08/15/340700366/in-the-obituary-for-a-boxy-van-a-word-on-whats-to-come

(and an article from 2 years ago: http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/motoramic/end-ford-econoline-marks-era-great-american-vans-204544690.html)

Looks like Chevy will be the only domestic full-size van producer left standing.

[PHall]

Hasn't hurt us too bad in CAWG. The California Vehicle Code says that you need a Class B license, with a passenger endorsement, to drive a vehicle that is designed to carry more then 10 people. The Class B license requires a medical. This applies to 15 pax vans even if you remove seats.
So we just get the 8 pax vans now.

[arajca]

Ford will still be selling full size vans, just not the ubiquitous E-series. So any new Ford vans will look different, big deal. Give it a few years and the Transit will be approaching the same commonality as the E-series. Also, Dodge has re-entered the full size van market as well.

[a2capt]

Hasn't hurt us too bad in CAWG. The California Vehicle Code says that you need a Class B license, with a passenger endorsement, to drive a vehicle that is designed to carry more then 10 people. ...

If the vehicle is driven for hire, for profit, or by a non-profit organization (in that they are used much in the same fashion)

One could argue a family of 10+ is a non-profit organization ... though perhaps of a different type.

The Brady Bunch does not need a CDL to transport their troops en-mass.

[Гугл переводчик]

We need more 4x4 SUVs... at least up here in Idaho because we get alot of snow and we have plenty of mountains...

[arajca]

We need more 4x4 SUVs... at least up here in Idaho because we get alot of snow and we have plenty of mountains...

Living in the mountains of CO, 4x4 is not really needed - unless you paln to go off road, something in my experience, few CAP drivers have much experience with. Excluding parking lots and driveways, of course. Winter driving comes down to an issue of know HOW to drive rather than knowing WHAT to drive. Especially if you do not regularly drive an SUV/4x4.

[The Infamous Meerkat]

We need more 4x4 SUVs... at least up here in Idaho because we get alot of snow and we have plenty of mountains...

Living in the mountains of CO, 4x4 is not really needed - unless you paln to go off road, something in my experience, few CAP drivers have much experience with. Excluding parking lots and driveways, of course. Winter driving comes down to an issue of know HOW to drive rather than knowing WHAT to drive. Especially if you do not regularly drive an SUV/4x4.

Sir,
As members of the search team for N36ML, and the five family members that went down with her, I must disagree with your statement that most of Idaho's CAP drivers have little experience in conditions requiring a 4x4 vehicle. As every SAR mission that has occurred since my return to Idaho has been based on the outskirts of the Frank Church Wilderness, we have absolutely required the use of our Expeditions, and on one occasion found it to be almost inadequate. While your missions may not take you further than the shoulder of the roadway, I can assure you that this is not the case in Idaho. Cadet Major Rosinsky understands quite well the needs of our missions, and twelve passenger vans are the furthest thing from fulfillment of those needs.

It may be true that better skill will trump better equipment most of the time, but when we are hard pressed to accomplish our tasking of driving for five hours on mountain roads in the snow with both ample equipment and skill, you can understand why your sentiments ring hollow here in our State. Some towns where missions are held at here require 4x4 capability even in reasonable weather, and both Yellow Pine and Warren are no exception to that.

[Eclipse]

Your experience notwithstanding, by far the vast majority of 4x4's and SUVs, especially those owned in urban areas,
>never< use the 4-wheel drive, and certainly never go off-roading in a way that remotely resembles the
marketing that sells these vehicles to the average consumer.

[The Infamous Meerkat]

Your experience notwithstanding, by far the vast majority of 4x4's and SUVs, especially those owned in urban areas,
>never< use the 4-wheel drive, and certainly never go off-roading in a way that remotely resembles the
marketing that sells these vehicles to the average consumer.

Sir,
That isn't in dispute, and it's absolutely true. However, Arajca is telling this Cadet that because he also lives in a mountainous state and he does not believe that 4x4 capability is required, that the same must be true of Idaho. I may be drawing a faulty inference from his statement, but my state is actively pressing our 4x4's into service based on verified needs, and the conclusion I drew from Arajca's statement was that if he doesn't need them then we shouldn't,  and if we had the proper skill in driving, then we wouldn't need the vehicles at all.

Our Wing CC uses one of the 4x4's for his CAP transportation needs, and I can't help but wonder how seriously our various Emergency Management Agencies would view our group if he used a CAP van instead...

[Garibaldi]

The vast majority of CAP drivers would never be able to use this endorsement. In special circumstances, there could be an endorsement, but CAP would NEVER take on the liability for the risks involved with using a 4x4 as a whole. In my opinion, learned as it may not be, and given the experience I've had driving in various winter conditions, it wouldn't be worth it. You get one hot rod younger SM and a car full of cadets, and that equals disaster. I know. I've seen me do it.

[Eclipse]

I doubt there would be much inference either way.  Not all wing CCs are even involved in SAR.

Honestly, any mission that requires a team to utilize much more then normal roads and highways,
or puts them into areas where legitimate 4x4 vehicles are needed, may well be pushing the ORM envelope.

Having to drive 5 hours for a mission isn't a great idea, either, though granted Idaho has a big chunk of land with
a small membership pool.

[PHall]

Hasn't hurt us too bad in CAWG. The California Vehicle Code says that you need a Class B license, with a passenger endorsement, to drive a vehicle that is designed to carry more then 10 people. ...

If the vehicle is driven for hire, for profit, or by a non-profit organization (in that they are used much in the same fashion)

One could argue a family of 10+ is a non-profit organization ... though perhaps of a different type.

The Brady Bunch does not need a CDL to transport their troops en-mass.

No, but a certain non-profit organization by the name of Civil Air Patrol does. 
CAP used to have a specific exemption from this law, we lost it when the law was revised a coujple of years ago.
And there seems to be no interest on the part of the Wing in regaining that exemption.

[Fubar]

No, but a certain non-profit organization by the name of Civil Air Patrol does. 
CAP used to have a specific exemption from this law, we lost it when the law was revised a coujple of years ago.
And there seems to be no interest on the part of the Wing in regaining that exemption.

Do other non-profit corporations have exemptions from the law?

[SarDragon]

Hasn't hurt us too bad in CAWG. The California Vehicle Code says that you need a Class B license, with a passenger endorsement, to drive a vehicle that is designed to carry more then 10 people. ...

If the vehicle is driven for hire, for profit, or by a non-profit organization (in that they are used much in the same fashion)

One could argue a family of 10+ is a non-profit organization ... though perhaps of a different type.

The Brady Bunch does not need a CDL to transport their troops en-mass.

No, but a certain non-profit organization by the name of Civil Air Patrol does. 
CAP used to have a specific exemption from this law, we lost it when the law was revised a coujple of years ago.
And there seems to be no interest on the part of the Wing in regaining that exemption.

Has anyone pitched it specifically to the new Wing King?

[arajca]

If you get out west, 3, 4, 5, 8 hours drive times are quite common.

I hear from ALOT of people that mountain driving REQUIRES 4x4s. I drive in the mountains all winter long and I'd estimate 80% of the vehicles in ditches are 4x4s.

I drive a full size van year round. I also have enough sense to NOT go out when conditions are that bad. I'm a retired volunteer fire fighter up here as well. I've been to far too many wrecks involving 4x4s in the winter because people did not have enough sense to drive appropriate to the conditions.

I grew up driving in northern IL (Bolingbrook), so I'm familiar with the flat land snow as well.

[SarDragon]

It looks like y'all are arguing generalities on one side, versus a specific statement that Lt. Brizziz made (emphasis mine): As members of the search team for N36ML, and the five family members that went down with her, I must disagree with your statement that most of Idaho's CAP drivers have little experience in conditions requiring a 4x4 vehicle.

arajca did acknowledge that, but the rest of you seem to be talking more about the general public. If you train for, and practice in, these conditions, you will become competent. When I'm driving in snow, I take as many opportunities to "play" in a safe area, to maintain my skills. The physical aspect is not hard. The mental aspect is.

[sarmed1]

4x4 in the sense of the general public is like a "body armor".....just because you have it doesnt make you invincible.  I have been to a number of wrecks here in PA where someone eventually utters "...I dont know what happened, I had the 4 wheel drive on...."  its a tool, that serves in some very specific conditions not some kind of magic save all. 

ORM not withstanding there are likely many situations in CAP SAR that 4x4 capability would be a benefit.   But I dont think we are talking true "off roading"  being the likely plan here.  I get the benefit of the 12 pax van to affect multiple CAP activities, but I think a better mix of vehicle types might not be a bad idea; especially in those areas that the 4x4 option could be a more frequently needed mission tool.

mk

[Garibaldi]

There are a few areas we train in North Georgia that could benefit from a 4x4, or even a 2x2, but I've taken my 2002 Cougar up the same roads with little difficulty. If it became too rough, I'd abandon it and ride in the van until the op was over. But, since these ops are the exception rather than the rule, I'd argue against it. ORM in our area at least would rule against any sort of ops during snow or ice. Especially in light of last winter...and the almanac says this one is supposed to be as bad or worse.

[Spaceman3750]

While it's doubtful that we have much of a need to scale the side of a mountain on a Jeep trail (and good luck getting the beastly Expedition up one), I've seen two-track service roads used a fair amount. In dry conditions it's mostly ground clearance that's the issue so 12-pax is fine. In wet conditions, probably not so much (haven't had the pleasure of getting a van stuck in the mud so I can't say that from personal experience).

One thing that I will sharply disagree with is the sentiment that if the mission is away from a paved road we shouldn't be doing it. People and planes have a tendency to go missing in areas where there aren't people to see them go down or get lost. Not many paved roads where there are no people.

[Garibaldi]

While it's doubtful that we have much of a need to scale the side of a mountain on a Jeep trail (and good luck getting the beastly Expedition up one), I've seen two-track service roads used a fair amount. In dry conditions it's mostly ground clearance that's the issue so 12-pax is fine. In wet conditions, probably not so much (haven't had the pleasure of getting a van stuck in the mud so I can't say that from personal experience).

One thing that I will sharply disagree with is the sentiment that if the mission is away from a paved road we shouldn't be doing it. People and planes have a tendency to go missing in areas where there aren't people to see them go down or get lost. Not many paved roads where there are no people.

What, you missed the statistic that clearly shows 99.9% of the plane crashes we respond to are within easy reach of a paved road?

All kidding aside, you are correct, but mostly we would use our heads and park the van when we can't go further, and proceed on foot. We did just that this past weekend on our FTX. We didn't see the van for more than 24 hours.