Tactical Plate Carrier For ES

[CAPcadet4477]

Anyone know a good plate carrier for ES ops? Me and ground team would like to know

[Eclipse]

Another troll.

Find a better hobby.

[CAPcadet4477]

No dude I am curious I have seen alot of people use web gear but I want to see some setups for plate carriers

[abdsp51]

Cadet a couple of things:

1) Search is useful for these things, this has been addressed before.

2)  Eclipse is a SM and therefore the use of "dude" to address him is inappropriate.

Why do you want to use a plate carrier they serve no real purpose outside of holding/wearing SAPI plates and are not well suited for ES.  Stick to web gear or a decent vest. 

And FYI you are coming off as wanting to look tactikewl more than anything. 

[NIN]

OTOH, there are other, similar devices that can serve a similar function without being a plate carrier.

Example:
http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab171/sapper-77/IMG_4118.jpg

Thats the so-called "Ranger Rack"-style of tactical gear.  More of a "chest rig" than a true plate carrier.

I own one of these (note: did not wear it for CAP purposes) and I found it to be a LOT more functional (for the purposes that we would use it for) than old-school LBE, especially since I'm not a big fan of vests.

Easy to rig and put on. Easy to take off.  Easy to reconfigure.  Allows for backpacks/camelbaks, almost no coverage on the back for heat & comfort, in and out of vehicles, etc.  Lots of functionality for personal preference of pouches. (example: I have NO mag pouches, since mine was never used in a tactical fashion)

There is a fine line between "tacti-kewl" and "function-kewl"... I think everybody has a slightly different pen when they draw their version of the line.

And with the choices today, well, LBE just stinks.

[Panzerbjorn]

I'll actually answer the question on the off-chance that this isn't a trolling post.

Plate carriers are functional with modification for ES.  The modifications usually include taking a seam ripper and removing the pockets for the plates to make the rig more breathable and trap less heat.  They also usually come with closed cell foam inserts to keep the material stiff.  Remove the foam inserts too.

Plate carriers really have the same advantages of a vest, lots of MOLLE real estate to attach pouches.  That's their advantage for use in ES.  Pretty much everything else is a disadvantage.  They are heavy, particularly after you've attached every pouch you desire and load it up.  When mine is loaded up, it's typically around 30 pounds, and no, I don't use it for ES.  It's not a very practical piece of kit for ES work.

They are hot in the warmer months.  No matter what you do to modify them, they just plain trap heat.  But there is usually an integrated hydration pouch in the back of them, so at least you're not having to carry something separate for your water.

Unlike web gear or vests that have permanently attached pockets, plate carriers give you the flexibility to be modular in pouches to carry the equipment you need out in the field.  But what this also does, particularly to a new user, is load up the carrier with every conceivable pouch on the market.  Then you just end up overloading yourself.

Finally, wearing a plate carrier really does give off the commando stigma.  It doesn't bother me personally if someone wants to wear one for ES out in the field, but we've seen here plenty of those who have downright vehemence for it.  We've also seen how the cadet commando look can disturb a public filled with people who think cadets are planning the next Columbine.  So, for public perception, it's not really the best way to go.

What I personally did was order a flourescent orange MOLLE vest from dutyapparel.com along with several pouches.  It'll be here within the next couple days, so I haven't actually seen it in person yet, and I'm not going to steer you that way until I get mine and try it out in the field first. But the theory is sound.  You have the MOLLE real estate that I want to attach actual ES pouches to without the commando look.  But with the vest and pouches, you're still looking at dropping close to $200.

You don't need Blackhawk brand equipment for what we do.  If you're hellbent on getting a plate carrier, one made by Condor or FoxOutdoor will do you just fine.  They price right around $50 to $70 and the Condor ones at least have hydration pouches on the back.

All that being said, I would still try and steer you away from using a plate carrier for what we do.  It's just plain overkill.

[sarmed1]

Id say if you have one use it....free is always a good option.  The downside is the plate pockets.  The dont support well without a rigid plate in them.  Non armor tactical vests or straight up chest rigs ate the way to go if that's your thing.
I have found for what most CAP GT's do a compact chest rig with a sturdy day pack works best.

MK

[LATORRECA]

   A plate carrier has no other use than what is for. I wear sapi plate carriers to work and at the end of the day the only thing on my head, is to take that thing of me. A good pistol belt or chest rig works good for ES.
  It looks cool but that's it.

[Brit_in_CAP]

<<Snipped>>

Finally, wearing a plate carrier really does give off the commando stigma.  It doesn't bother me personally if someone wants to wear one for ES out in the field, but we've seen here plenty of those who have downright vehemence for it.  We've also seen how the cadet commando look can disturb a public filled with people who think cadets are planning the next Columbine.  So, for public perception, it's not really the best way to go.

Edited solely to show the one comment.  There's another post on here somewhere that shows what can happen.  VAWG responded to a balloon crash; there were photos of cadets who were clearly not dressed per 39-1 at the very least.  If you read the press article and then the public comments, many of them related to this very point.   

Article: http://news.yahoo.com/balloon-crash-looms-over-u-richmond-graduation-043203809.html

Thread: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=18857.msg344402;topicseen#new

[LATORRECA]

    I agree this shows no discipline from any of does members. Chest rigs, leg mag pouches, boonie covers and all kinds of stuff not authorized. Come one we look like a bunch of amateur. Like I said the plate carriers and the chest rigs has no business on what we do.
    Cool look club. If they want that, they could join the cadet army corps or young Marines.

[LATORRECA]

Senior members expectation of a ground team:



Cadets interpretation of them going on a ground search and rescue.

[Luis R. Ramos]

This comment is specifically for Latorreca and others that complain about what cadets want to carry to the field for their missions.

I have been in CAP for at least 15 years, and at no time there has been any mandate prohibiting anyone in Emergency Services from using military packs, carriers, etc in the field. At no time!

I say again, at no time!!!

During most of this time I used ALICE small packs and ammo pouches where I changed the purpose of it. A smart person adapts to the circumstances. Now I use a medium ALICE pack.

If you think this prevents the presentation of a professional image, then ask that it be included as part of the regulations a message like "no military packs or carriers will be worn."

[LATORRECA]

This comment is specifically for Latorreca and others that complain about what cadets want to carry to the field for their missions.

I have been in CAP for at least 15 years, and at no time there has been any mandate prohibiting anyone in Emergency Services from using military packs, carriers, etc in the field. At no time!

I say again, at no time!!!

During most of this time I used ALICE small packs and ammo pouches where I changed the purpose of it. A smart person adapts to the circumstances. Now I use a medium ALICE pack.

If you think this prevents the presentation of a professional image, then ask that it be included as part of the regulations a message like "no military packs or carriers will be worn."

   I'm not in any disagreement on cadets using military gear but in true reality, it can become a liability. Making that young cadet heavier or hotter than necessary.  I use a pistol belt with buttpack and a medium Alice pack.  I do have all kinds of military gear due to my occupation and I don't use it. However, I teach my cadets the proper utilization of gear and mission analysis to know what to take and have for that specific mission..
   By the way the Bonnie cover is not authorized or the kish around their necks. According to CAPR 39-1.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Agree the bonnie cover is not authorized. The kish around their necks? Do not agree. Is like carrying a bandana for a handkerchief. In a hot day you as a team member may have to put one around your neck... But it is the Ground Team Leader that sets the tone.

If he thinks the team does not present a professional image and are using incorrect things, he should say "not in my watch."

As to this topic? I have never been in the need for the plate carrier, so I will let those which have used them in the field be the ones talking about their use in CAP to carry other stuff...

[NIN]

This comment is specifically for Latorreca and others that complain about what cadets want to carry to the field for their missions.

I have been in CAP for at least 15 years, and at no time there has been any mandate prohibiting anyone in Emergency Services from using military packs, carriers, etc in the field. At no time!

I say again, at no time!!!

During most of this time I used ALICE small packs and ammo pouches where I changed the purpose of it. A smart person adapts to the circumstances. Now I use a medium ALICE pack.

If you think this prevents the presentation of a professional image, then ask that it be included as part of the regulations a message like "no military packs or carriers will be worn."

Uh, dude, there is a difference between a military pack, military load carrying equipment, and the things we're discussing here: plate carriers, which are essentially the outer component of body armor.

Nobody said "Don't use/wear a military pack! You're not military!!" or "Why wear a pistol belt, you're not carrying a pistol?" or "Ammo pouches? You're not carrying ammo!"  A pistol belt, for example, is used as part of LBE, holds your ammo pouches (which get used for snacks, flashlights, small gear, not ammo), canteens, etc.

But a plate carrier is a device designed to carry armor plates (soft or hard) for protective purposes.

It has basically no more effective use in ES than k-pot helmet would: nobody needs ballistic protection in the field.   Sure you can throw a bunch of MOLLE stuff on it, but without the plates in it, there is very little stiffening.  You can do the same with a chest rig or some of the vests. (IOW, if you are carrying around a plate carrier, with all your ES gear, and you have to stick plates in it to make it hold things in the right way, you're doing the wrong thing)

Plate Carrier:

Note the front & back coverage. This is designed to carry armor plates to protect your torso from small arms fire, and to hang MOLLE stuff on (because otherwise you'd have to wear a plate carrier AND a chest rig).

Chest rig or Rack:

No provisions to hold armor plates.  Only gear (pouches, etc). Not full-back thing either (you don't need to wear a full-back deal for ES, really, anyway. I cringe just thinking about how hot a full front-and-back plate-carrier style get up would be, especially since you don't have any need to have anything on your back if you're not wearing armor and who wants MOLLE pouches on their back?)

Again, not saying "don't use military gear."  More saying "use the right military gear"  I used to own a steel pot helmet and a flak jacket, doesn't mean they were anywhere appropriate for CAP field use, and in fact, they were not.

[Eclipse]

The kish around their necks? Do not agree. Is like carrying a bandana for a handkerchief.

That goofy scarf was specifically purchased to look like an "operator in the sandbox"  it likely came from their airsoft or paintball toys,
and if the GTL had a lick of sense, it would have been left in the car / pack.

[jeders]

I have been in CAP for at least 15 years, and at no time there has been any mandate prohibiting anyone in Emergency Services from using military packs, carriers, etc in the field.

There's also no mandate prohibiting me from using a '63 Corvette as my search vehicle; but common sense dictates that I should use something more suited for the environment, like a 4-wheel drive vehicle. The same goes for certain military gear. Plate carriers have no place in ground search and rescue because they are not well suited to our needs. ALICE gear, pistol belt with suspenders, load bearing vest (something like this preferably) are all examples of military and military style equipment that is well suited to CAP SAR needs.

Edit: NIN beat me to it.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Uh, dude, re-read the message I answered.

He did say something against using ammo pouches.

Re-read my second answer to him. I did understand the thread was about plate carriers, and I do know what a plate carrier is.

Uh, dude, I thought you were able to read and understand messages but after your response to mine now I have my doubts...

[Luis R. Ramos]

From Jeders:

There's also no mandate prohibiting me from using a '63 Corvette as my search vehicle; but common sense dictates that I should use something more suited for the environment...

I will say that in the environment shown the Corvette is not suited. However in a large city when you know the streets and your objective is in a marina where there are lots of short, small streets, it is!

From Jeders:

The same goes for certain military gear....  ALICE gear, pistol belt with suspenders, load bearing vest (something like this preferably) are all examples of military and military style equipment that is well suited to CAP SAR needs.

Re-read Latorreca's post. He lumped all military gear as having no place in ES. I answered this post!

[Storm Chaser]

Uh, dude, re-read the message I answered.

He did say something against using ammo pouches.

Re-read my second answer to him. I did understand the thread was about plate carriers, and I do know what a plate carrier is.

Uh, dude, I thought you were able to read and understand messages but after your response to mine now I have my doubts...

Capt Ramos, Latorreca expressed an opinion based on his experience. You certainly have the right to express yours, but there was no reason to "yell" in your post. There's also no need to call CAP officers "dude".

[Garibaldi]

Just a few quick notes on this topic, and I will shut up.

1. "Dude" is not an affectation that should be used between adults, unless you are in a beer commercial.

2. Tak-ti-kewl gear that serves no useful purpose, such as plate carriers, really have no place in ES operations. I've always told my cadets "If you can demonstrate it's use and utility over what I am wearing, you can use it." It's gone the next time we go out, in most cases. I still have my LBE from the 80s.

3. We use the military style gear because it is useful to us, tried and true for many many years.

4. Compliance with CAPM 39-1 is mandatory for all members participating in ES missions. Boonie hats, scarves, whatever they are called, are not to be worn. Period.

[NIN]

Uh, dude, re-read the message I answered.

He did say something against using ammo pouches.

Re-read my second answer to him. I did understand the thread was about plate carriers, and I do know what a plate carrier is.

Uh, dude, I thought you were able to read and understand messages but after your response to mine now I have my doubts...

I just read back and realized I misread your message totally.

It was the "at no time" in large, friendly letters that threw me off track and caused me to lose all my ability to read and comprehend, I bet.

Never mind, I read it again and see that I was way off base. Consider me chastened.

Storm chaser: I used 'dude' first. Sorry, that was all me.

[Eclipse]

There's also no mandate prohibiting me from using a '63 Corvette as my search vehicle; but common sense dictates that I should use something more suited for the environment, like a 4-wheel drive vehicle.

We had a valued member who ran more then one UDF in a Porsche convertible.  Nice car, but not exactly an urban assault vehicle.

Though that probably didn't cost us as many cool points as when we had to take the entire encampment from the base to the airport in
stretch limousines because there were no rental buses in the area.

[Luis R. Ramos]

I took Nin message very personally and realize I have to apologize for my last line.

Where I stated he had to re-read and understand messages. This was out of line.

I value his experience and many, many times his advice is very well on-the-spot, and very clearly expressed.

Take care everyone...

[LATORRECA]

   Good day gentlemen.
   
      Sorry, if I pissed some people off, however the equipment on question can elevate your core temperature 10-12 degrees higher. A cadet can become a heat casualty.
   All I said,  I will not recommended the plate carrier for a cadet to use. No reason to have it.

Have a good day.

And yes sorry for my grammar, English is my second language.

[THRAWN]

I've always been of the "if it works, or you can make it work for you" school of thought on this subject. I had a Cadet who used an Army air crew vest, another who used the simple LBE and another who used some kind of hunting vest from Cabellas and another who had a small ALICE pack clipped to the back of his grenade vest. All of them worked well for the individuals. Each of them took flak because of how they looked, but at the end of the day, it worked for them...

[THRAWN]

Just a few quick notes on this topic, and I will shut up.

1. "Dude" is not an affectation that should be used between adults, unless you are in a beer commercial.

2. Tak-ti-kewl gear that serves no useful purpose, such as plate carriers, really have no place in ES operations. I've always told my cadets "If you can demonstrate it's use and utility over what I am wearing, you can use it." It's gone the next time we go out, in most cases. I still have my LBE from the 80s.

3. We use the military style gear because it is useful to us, tried and true for many many years.

4. Compliance with CAPM 39-1 is mandatory for all members participating in ES missions. Boonie hats, scarves, whatever they are called, are not to be worn. Period.

I'll give you the bush hat, but the "handkerchief" could be broadly defined...

[Garibaldi]

Just a few quick notes on this topic, and I will shut up.

1. "Dude" is not an affectation that should be used between adults, unless you are in a beer commercial.

2. Tak-ti-kewl gear that serves no useful purpose, such as plate carriers, really have no place in ES operations. I've always told my cadets "If you can demonstrate it's use and utility over what I am wearing, you can use it." It's gone the next time we go out, in most cases. I still have my LBE from the 80s.

3. We use the military style gear because it is useful to us, tried and true for many many years.

4. Compliance with CAPM 39-1 is mandatory for all members participating in ES missions. Boonie hats, scarves, whatever they are called, are not to be worn. Period.

I'll give you the bush hat, but the "handkerchief" could be broadly defined...

I was referring to those tak-ti-kewl bandanna scarf things. It serves no purpose whatsoever.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Bandanas are good for:

1. Improvising bandages.
2. Holding hot handles when cooking or heating MREs.
3. Mopping up sweat.
4. Soaking up more... bodily fluids to post a not disgusting message.
5. Wetting it and putting on top of your head for cooling purposes...

This is all I could think in an instant...

Now we enter into a color war.

1. If you use the ones pictured, you are accused of being tac-ti-kewl.
2. If you use other multicolored ones, you can be accused of using gang colors.

Now tell me, what type of bandanas can one use, which have more use than handkerchiefs, that will pass the CAPTalk self-appointed censors?

[Garibaldi]

Bandanas are good for:

1. Improvising bandages.
2. Holding hot handles when cooking or heating MREs.
3. Mopping up sweat.
4. Soaking up more... bodily fluids to post a not disgusting message.
5. Wetting it and putting on top of your head for cooling purposes...

This is all I could think in an instant...

Now we enter into a color war.

1. If you use the ones pictured, you are accused of being tac-ti-kewl.
2. If you use other multicolored ones, you can be accused of using gang colors.

Now tell me, what type of bandanas can one use, which have more use than handkerchiefs, that will pass the CAPTalk self-appointed censors?

The ones we can use are the triangular bandages that are included in some first aid kits. They are not to be worn around the neck. Realistically, any bandanna has the utility you outlined earlier, they just can't be worn. We used to wear them on our heads like doo-rags, before they became popular amongst the gangsta culture, out in the field WIWAC.

You can also use one in case you don't have any TP. Just sayin'. Just bury it deep.

[Eclipse]

For starters, I don't see the word "bandana" anywhere in 39-1, so if one is necessary, it should be stowed.

Second, in the situation being discussed, those are not "bandanas", they are "Shemaghs" generally worn in a desert
environment, inappropriate for where they were being worn, not approved for wear with a CAP uniform,
and clearly purchased for the COD image they project, not mission performance.

There are plenty of places a head scarf is appropriate for wear, the mid-Atlantic region of the US isn't one of them.

[Luis R. Ramos]

I have been a First Aid and CPR instructor since the 1980's.

So you are saying that bandanas should not be used as triangular bandages if we do not have a triangular bandage by running out of them?

Nice call!

We will now tell the wounded: You should not bleed out. We are waiting for a new shipment of triangular bandages, continue bleeding after we get those... Or wait until the official rescuers arrive to continue bleeding so they can use their approved bandages...

[Storm Chaser]

What was said was that, while bandanas can serve many purposes, they are NOT to be worn with a CAP uniform.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Ok.

Read these:

http://survivalcache.com/30-uses-for-a-bandana/

Granted, in CAP we would only use about 20 of this list...

And http://survivalcache.com/shemaghs-a-survival-must-have/

Who likens the shemagh to a bandana...

And http://beforeitsnews.com/survival/2014/01/33-survival-uses-for-a-shemagh-graphic-2504886.html

I do not own one but would not deny anyone from some of those uses...

[Storm Chaser]

Shemaghs and bandanas can be useful tools. What they're not, however, are uniform accessories.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Now we are getting into a fine line that has been hashed and rehashed ad infinitum here.

Cold weather conditions forces many of us adult leaders to allow non-military style coats with weather conditions. If we adopt the stance that some of you are using to argue we can adopt the same arguments against using those coats.

Sorry should not be having it both ways.

Doesn't 39-1 says something about cold weather? Why would this argument not be relevant to the shemaghs?

[Eclipse]

Ok.

Read these:

Why? No one said they aren't useful.  They simply aren't a uniform item and if you think you need one
should be in your pocket.

[Eclipse]

Now we are getting into a fine line that has been hashed and rehashed ad infinitum here.

Cold weather conditions forces many of us adult leaders to allow non-military style coats with weather conditions.

Not allowed.

Failure to properly plan or equip yourself is not an excuse to violate regulations. 

Ant wing forced to operate in conditions which exceed the approved uniform items should submit
a supplement to NHQ.  By far the majority of wings have no need for this, and in a few cases
it's an ORM failure, not a mission requirement that sees this happen.

Again, in this case, we're talking about members making purchase choices far in advance of
any unforeseen emergency.

Just as we had this issue 10 years ago with Gore-tex before it was approved.  "Better", "warmer", "more capable"
are irrelevant to the "approved for wear discussion" at the member level.

It's one thing to find yourself in an unforeseen circumstance, with no choice in the matter, and a big 'nother
when you choose to buy or use something not on the list, and then wave the "it's all I have flag".

[NIN]

I took Nin message very personally and realize I have to apologize for my last line.

Where I stated he had to re-read and understand messages. This was out of line.

I value his experience and many, many times his advice is very well on-the-spot, and very clearly expressed.

Take care everyone...

Nah, I think we were both talking past each other a little bit for a minute.

I took no offense at your reply, as it forced me to go "Wait, did I read him right?" and then "Whoops, I TOTALLY misread his post!!"

No worries here.

[Garibaldi]

I have been a First Aid and CPR instructor since the 1980's.

So you are saying that bandanas should not be used as triangular bandages if we do not have a triangular bandage by running out of them?

Nice call!

We will now tell the wounded: You should not bleed out. We are waiting for a new shipment of triangular bandages, continue bleeding after we get those... Or wait until the official rescuers arrive to continue bleeding so they can use their approved bandages...

Where on earth was it said we cannot USE these items? I, and a few others, merely said they cannot be WORN as part of the uniform. Stowed in a pocket, quick access, good. Worn as part of the uniform, bad.

[lordmonar]

The kish around their necks? Do not agree. Is like carrying a bandana for a handkerchief.

That goofy scarf was specifically purchased to look like an "operator in the sandbox"  it likely came from their airsoft or paintball toys,
and if the GTL had a lick of sense, it would have been left in the car / pack.

Okay.....Why?   

I can think of several good uses for a scarf in my AOR...everything from keeping warm, keeping off the bugs, keeping out the sun, keeping out the rain, keeping out the sand, keeping out the wing, back up sling, tourniquet, back up cravat, handy quicker picker upper, the list goes on.

Other then "looking cool"....what is wrong with the Kish?

[Eclipse]

Other then "looking cool"....what is wrong with the Kish?

It sets the completely wrong image - like a boonie on the blue field uniform, if you need it, wear it the field and
stow it in the ICP.

[lordmonar]

2. Tak-ti-kewl gear that serves no useful purpose, such as plate carriers, really have no place in ES operations. I've always told my cadets "If you can demonstrate it's use and utility over what I am wearing, you can use it." It's gone the next time we go out, in most cases. I still have my LBE from the 80s.

How about "it was free...my dad gave it to me".

How about....it's what I already got.

Sure the Alice LBE system is great.....but....and here's the real kicker...back in the day the only reason why we used it.....was.....wait for it........because it was tak-ti-kewl! 

I usually tell new GT members (Cadets or otherwise) to just throw everything into their school back pack.   A new GT person should not be going out and buying a bunch of gear.

Once they are in the GT community.....meet and look at everyone else's set up and choose what works for you.

4. Compliance with CAPM 39-1 is mandatory for all members participating in ES missions. Boonie hats, scarves, whatever they are called, are not to be worn. Period.

Got to call the BS on this one to a point.   Any deviations from the regulations must have a legitimate and practical purpose to the ES mission.   Generally speaking you are correct Boonies are a no-no....but a scarf.....I can see a lot of good uses for a good scarf in the field.   I also hold out for deviations from 39-1 when it comes to wet weather, and cold weather.   But that is just me.   

And now this is where Eclipse blows a gasket and goes off on me.

[lordmonar]

Other then "looking cool"....what is wrong with the Kish?

It sets the completely wrong image - like a boonie on the blue field uniform, if you need it, wear it the field and
stow it in the ICP.

So.....it is just about the image.    I thought you were against things being just about image.

We can argue about this all day long......on this side of the line it is okay to wear XYZ but on this side it is not.    Do you have a useful definition of "in the field"?   Where does "in" the field become "out" of the field?

[Eclipse]

And now this is where Eclipse blows a gasket and goes off on me.

Actually, this is where eclipse decides he really no longer has a poop to give.

More mental machinations to justify the silly actions of a member looking to puff himself up a bit and look "cool".

People aren't interested in the details, no reg is too small to ignore, but that;s OK because the big stuff is being ignored, too,
in favor of pet projects and whatever is shiny this week.

[jeders]

And now this is where Eclipse blows a gasket and goes off on me.

And the rest of us sit back and enjoy some nachos while we watch the fireworks.

[Eclipse]

I would kill for a nacho hat...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CWK5Tzss8Q#

[Storm Chaser]

What about a nacho plate carrier? And after we're done eating nachos, we can use a shemagh to wipe our faces. Yummy!

[Eclipse]

What about a nacho plate carrier? And after we're done eating nachos, we can use a shemagh to wipe our faces. Yummy!

Now THAT is officer thinking...

[Garibaldi]

2. Tak-ti-kewl gear that serves no useful purpose, such as plate carriers, really have no place in ES operations. I've always told my cadets "If you can demonstrate it's use and utility over what I am wearing, you can use it." It's gone the next time we go out, in most cases. I still have my LBE from the 80s.

How about "it was free...my dad gave it to me".

How about....it's what I already got.

Sure the Alice LBE system is great.....but....and here's the real kicker...back in the day the only reason why we used it.....was.....wait for it........because it was tak-ti-kewl! 

And this is where I call BS. It had utility. It meshed well with our OG jungle fatigues AND our standard pickle suit. We didn't have all these MOLLE and such, or all these commercial products. We had what the Air Force DRMO gave us, and in most cases, surplus ALICE packs were a dime a dozen. It was sanctioned (in most cases, at least tolerated) by Wing.

If we wanted tak-ti-kewl we sewed RANGER and AIRBORNE tabs on our flight jackets, carried around our bottle rockets in ammo boxes, used camo face paint on FTXs, ladder-laced our boots, and carried boot knives on our jungle boots. THAT was tak-ti-kewl. 

[lordmonar]

2. Tak-ti-kewl gear that serves no useful purpose, such as plate carriers, really have no place in ES operations. I've always told my cadets "If you can demonstrate it's use and utility over what I am wearing, you can use it." It's gone the next time we go out, in most cases. I still have my LBE from the 80s.

How about "it was free...my dad gave it to me".

How about....it's what I already got.

Sure the Alice LBE system is great.....but....and here's the real kicker...back in the day the only reason why we used it.....was.....wait for it........because it was tak-ti-kewl! 

And this is where I call BS. It had utility. It meshed well with our OG jungle fatigues AND our standard pickle suit. We didn't have all these MOLLE and such, or all these commercial products. We had what the Air Force DRMO gave us, and in most cases, surplus ALICE packs were a dime a dozen. It was sanctioned (in most cases, at least tolerated) by Wing.

If we wanted tak-ti-kewl we sewed RANGER and AIRBORNE tabs on our flight jackets, carried around our bottle rockets in ammo boxes, used camo face paint on FTXs, ladder-laced our boots, and carried boot knives on our jungle boots. THAT was tak-ti-kewl. 

That too.

But my point is....if the tactical gear works......I don't care what it looks like.  Unless we go back to the days where the load out was actually spelled out in the GT manual...or at least it was in ARWG back in '85.....I'm not going to get bent out of shape because a cadet or senior member has got $400 of MOLLE in MULTICAM.....or they got a Hello Kitty Back Pack with all their gear.  If it works...it works.   

If they start sporting Kevlar or SAPI plates.....I may make a suggestion that the weight is not worth the cool....but that is it.

[Chaplaindon]

As a former Ground Team Leader, Paramedic & Flight Paramedic, & Squadron CC (and DCFC/DCFS), I can see no practical rationale for most of the tacti-kewl (great moniker) "stuff" I see carried/worn by some GTMs or GTM "wannabees." In fact 99.9% of all GT call-outs during my 23 years in CAP were more UDF than "Desert Storm." And, for the record, we had one of the top GTs in TXWG/SWR (including SAR dogs, etc.).

Being in Texas, and its notorious heat & humidity, ORM demands proper attire for both mission and environment ... added bulk, weight, (etc.) for the sake of looking/feeling trendy is simply unprofessional. I wouldn't let someone go into the field in (cf:) high-heel shoes and I wouldn't allow faux body armor (or a camo "bridal veil") ... if you have to wear such, find another team. Likewise I didn't allow Rambo survival knives or machetes -routinely- (the latter ONLY if needed and used by SMs).

It's a lot like in EMS, the rookies and wannabees with the portable O.R. on their belt and every patch on their shirt (and light on their auto) ... phonies. We called them "woo-woo's."

Simply put: leave the toys and halloween costumes in the closet, grow up or go play elsewhere.

SAR is serious business for trained -mature- professionals.

[Panzerbjorn]

Personally, I don't use a plate carrier for ES work.  I think we can all agree on the fact that it's overkill.  I also don't wear anything or take anything out to the field with me for the purpose of looking tacticool.  If I'm carrying it or wearing it, it has a practical use.  I'm too old and pudgy to be carrying extra crap on me up and down the hills all day long just to look cool.  I'm cool enough on my own.

It really is a shame that a shemagh has the commando stigmata to it as it really is a very useful piece of gear.  I sweat, and it's a wonderful towel to mop my forehead.  There really are reasons that the military and commandos wear and use them, and it's not because they're tacticool.  So, I carry one with me, usually folded up in a pouch to be used as a towel.  If it's cold out, it gets worn as a scarf. 

As far as machetes go....I was on a ground team training weekend not long ago, and the cadets thought it would be much more fun and adventurous to trailblaze our way from Point A to Point B along a creek instead of along the road that I pointed out that would be more practical.  The cadets learned that day that raspberry and blackberry bushes grow really really well beside a body of water.  And we pushed our way though approximately two miles of raspberry bushes.  I put up with the cadets learning that lesson on their own, but guess what I bought at REI as soon as I got back?  Am I going to carry it with me on every sortie? Heck, no.  Would I feel comfortable with cadets carrying them? Not in general, but on a case by case basis with those who understand it's a tool, not a tacticool.  Even then, I'll think about it twice then three times envisioning the Form 78 paperwork.

I just want the attitude of practicality instilled in the cadets.  Carry and wear what's practical while at the same time understand that John Q Public doesn't understand us in general and thinks we're training killer ninjas because we wear camoflauge.