Here in Broward County FL 1/3 of the county is densely populated, the other 2/3 is mostly everglades national park with towns very far apart. If we are out in the everglades on a SAREX or a Mission cell phone covered is poor at best. If you do get a signal chances are if you move your call will be dropped.
For those of you who live in states where this is a big issue does your local PD, FD, rangers or what ever let you put their frequencies on to your CAP radios to use in case of an emergency?
If so, what did it take to get this permission?
If not, is it because they do not operate on VHF or do they just not want you on their frequencies? Also what measures do you have in place to ensure that you can get in contact with authorities in case of emergency?
You can always ask for a CAP airplane to be put up over the area to act as a relay.
In TX, we have DPS frequencies available on our radios for emergencies. However, the areas where our cell phones blank out are also areas where we can't get good line of site with our radios. Down in canyons and areas where there's just nothing.
For the radios, hopefully you have a Hibird up relaying radio signals on a real mission or large SAREX. If not, find the highest point and try again.
The squadron I'm with now has access to a large ranch pasture which is in a canyon area. Once you enter the canyon, you lose all cell phone signal. So if something goes wrong, we hike/drive to the top and call from there where there's great coverage.
Quote from: jeders on June 07, 2008, 08:22:55 PM
For the radios, hopefully you have a Hibird up relaying radio signals on a real mission or large SAREX. If not, find the highest point and try again.
It's Florida there is no "highest point" unless you climb a tree. However the Highway Patrol and Fish and Wildlife have repeaters all over the place, I have come across some on really remote trails as well as in some really remote areas that had no defined trail. Having no cell signal isn't usually because of geographical terrain but more that you are just out of range of a tower.
The only problem I see with using their Frequencies for emergency purposes is that they utilize a 800 MHz trunked system.
They might let you on their system as a non-profit public safety group. It will probably not be for free. It appears the Broward County Sheriff's Office Communications Technology Division (http://www.sheriff.org/about_bso/admin/comtech/index.cfm) is responsible for the operation of the radios and towers. You could try contacting them.
In California we have the mutual aid frequencies for both police and fire programmed into our radios.
We can use them only by prior arrangement or in case of an emergency.
But it better be a "real" emergency or you're going to be toast.
It's a little more involved than that and involves agency approval, use of a radio that meets the specifications/type acceptance of that service, NTIA approval, and a copy of that agency's license (or NTIA approval if a Federal agency) on file. Ref: CAPM 100-1.
I think your best bet would be to contact the Wing Director of Communications to see if they have anything in the works and if they could help set something up if necessary.
Quote from: JoeTomasone on June 08, 2008, 02:30:29 AM
It's a little more involved than that and involves agency approval, use of a radio that meets the specifications/type acceptance of that service, NTIA approval, and a copy of that agency's license (or NTIA approval if a Federal agency) on file. Ref: CAPM 100-1.
When I said "our radios", I was talking about the CAP owned radios installed in corperate aircraft and vehicles.
We have the Coast Guard freq's in our radios, as well as the state wide "all call" for PD
Quote from: IceNine on June 08, 2008, 04:46:24 AM
We have the Coast Guard freq's in our radios, as well as the state wide "all call" for PD
Uh? Why does ILWG have the frequency for a riverine buoy tender? - CGC Sangamon
Or are you refering to a set of freqs for the lake michigan crowd?
-- Anytime I will go out on a mission I'm always going to have my personal Kenwood in my pack. I can hit every PD/FD/EMS/AirMedical/EMA group inside of 100 miles with that thing. - Plus I have MERCI, statewide PD, and MABAS and thats good anywhere.
All CAP planes should have marine radio freqencies programmed into them so that they can work with units on rivers and lakes from the Coast Guard, Coast Guard Auxiliary, state fish and wildlife agencies, local sheriff departments, etc.
Another option is to use HF instead of VHF. In the Everglades you should get very good ground wave propagation or try NVIS.
Quote from: RiverAux on June 08, 2008, 01:11:27 PM
All CAP planes should have marine radio freqencies programmed into them so that they can work with units on rivers and lakes from the Coast Guard, Coast Guard Auxiliary, state fish and wildlife agencies, local sheriff departments, etc.
Should have - probably. Do have - that's another question. Not sure how many of those frequencies are in the national channel plan (either current or future after the new channels are allocated), other than the USCG probably. Will have to check to see what the intent is. Local channels become problematic though as programming of communications assets will be a tightly controlled ability. Same for ground mobile units too.
I've been told that the marine frequencies are going in all CAP aircraft radios. I know they're in all of our Wing's planes.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on June 08, 2008, 07:29:28 AM
-- Anytime I will go out on a mission I'm always going to have my personal Kenwood in my pack. I can hit every PD/FD/EMS/AirMedical/EMA group inside of 100 miles with that thing. - Plus I have MERCI, statewide PD, and MABAS and thats good anywhere.
Excellent, please make sure it remains turned off unless you have a lock on the xmit button, because when you're in a CAP uniform you are not allowed to use that radio as a transmitter.
And no, it doesn't matter that you are "something else" the other 6 days a week.
CAP in Iowa has an MOU, and proper authorizations to operate on a few LEA frequencies, and ALL CAP radios in the wing are programed to allow that communication.
MSWG has the CG, Statewide Fire and Statewide Police programmed in ours. We've used it on a couple of missions with good results. Problem is if the police are on 800 MHz band you would need a completely different radio to talk to them.
You are out of cell phone range...but are you out of CAP Repeater rang?
As for using other agencies frequencies.....it is possible. Your wing Comm Director should be working with your Group and Squadron Comm officers to get MOU with them to make it happen.
Usually the MOUs are for when we work directly with these agencies...but it is possible to write the MOU to allow CAP to use them for CAP specific missions (assuming the agency buys off on the use).
On option of course is to use a High Bird with either and airborn repeater or to act as a relay.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 09, 2008, 02:01:26 AM
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on June 08, 2008, 07:29:28 AM
-- Anytime I will go out on a mission I'm always going to have my personal Kenwood in my pack. I can hit every PD/FD/EMS/AirMedical/EMA group inside of 100 miles with that thing. - Plus I have MERCI, statewide PD, and MABAS and thats good anywhere.
Excellent, please make sure it remains turned off unless you have a lock on the xmit button, because when you're in a CAP uniform you are not allowed to use that radio as a transmitter.
And no, it doesn't matter that you are "something else" the other 6 days a week.
If something bad happens whereby we need to call in the calvary I will use that radio. Otherwise, yes it will stay in the pack.
Remember Major, we are talking about what to do when a cell phone doesnt work; when mine doesnt work, I go for my Kenwood... and ILWG does have an MOU for statewide.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on June 09, 2008, 04:59:56 AM
If something bad happens whereby we need to call in the calvary I will use that radio. Otherwise, yes it will stay in the pack.
Remember Major, we are talking about what to do when a cell phone doesnt work; when mine doesnt work, I go for my Kenwood... and ILWG does have an MOU for statewide.
The "Armageddon Scenario" that members like to use as an excuse for everything does not justify breaking CAP, NTIA, FCC, or other rules and regs.
I would love to see that MOU, because to my understanding no such document or agreement exists. Please post a link or forward me a copy.
Not to but in, But most all communications regulators have clauses in regulation that allows for communication by any means necessary in the event of emergency. That is explicitly true of the FCC.
Quote from: jeders on June 07, 2008, 08:22:55 PM
In TX, we have DPS frequencies available on our radios for emergencies. However, the areas where our cell phones blank out are also areas where we can't get good line of site with our radios. Down in canyons and areas where there's just nothing.
That's the same situation we have in the mountainous areas of western Maryland. In fact, cell phones tend to be more reliable than radios.
QuoteAll CAP planes should have marine radio freqencies programmed into them so that they can work with units on rivers and lakes from the Coast Guard, Coast Guard Auxiliary, state fish and wildlife agencies, local sheriff departments, etc.
With the possible exception of "immediate danger to life or property" where does CAP get authorization to use Marine VHF radios in aircraft?
I can find nothing in the FCC Maritime Mobile Service Rules (http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?job=service_home&id=maritime) that allows it. The USCG Auxiliary installs radios in planes and vehicles but they can only be used when under CG orders and activing as a public vessel, aircraft, vehicle of the US.
Good intentions are not enough when it comes to the FCC. Without specific authorization, CAP cannot transmit on Marine frequencies from aircraft unless there is 'immediate danger'. Could you enlighten us as to where the specific authorization comes from?
Quote from: Eclipse on June 09, 2008, 10:59:30 AM
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on June 09, 2008, 04:59:56 AM
If something bad happens whereby we need to call in the calvary I will use that radio. Otherwise, yes it will stay in the pack.
Remember Major, we are talking about what to do when a cell phone doesnt work; when mine doesnt work, I go for my Kenwood... and ILWG does have an MOU for statewide.
The "Armageddon Scenario" that members like to use as an excuse for everything does not justify breaking CAP, NTIA, FCC, or other rules and regs.
I would love to see that MOU, because to my understanding no such document or agreement exists. Please post a link or forward me a copy.
Eclipse you can ask IceNine about that authorization; specifically its for some USCG channels and the statewide freqs for PD and Fire. (I just dont understand why we have the CG freqs)
QuoteI just dont understand why we have the CG freqs
After my post, I did some research and found CAP (or anyone else in a plane) could use Marine VHF Ch6 or 16 for safety reasons. No other channels or freqs are authorized - at least none that I could find.
First - CFR Title 47: Telecommunication PART 80—STATIONS IN THE MARITIME SERVICES Subpart B—Applications and Licenses
Quote§ 80.47 Operation during emergency.
A station may be used for emergency communications when normal communication facilities are disrupted. The Commission may order the discontinuance of any such emergency communication service.
Notice this emergency use authorization is different then aeronautical or even the amateur bands. It does not authorize use do to 'immediate danger'. It only authorizes use if normal comms are disrupted. That would mean that Marine VHF is not allowed in an aircraft if the aero radio is working. However I did find two exceptions to that.
United States National Search and Rescue Supplement to the International Aeronautical and Maritime Search and Rescue Manual May 2000 (http://level2.cap.gov/documents/u_081503115809.pdf)
Footnote 4 to Figure 3-3. Alerting, SAR Operations, and Maritime Safety Frequencies states:
QuoteFrequencies 156.3 and 156.8 MHz may also be used by aircraft for safety purposes only.
156.3 = Marine VHF Ch 6
156.8 = Marine VHF Ch 16
Note the authorization is only for two channels (6 and 16) and for "safety purposes only". It is debatable whether that would cover using the channels to conduct an entire SAR case. What seems very clear is that CAP has no authorization to use the regular CG channels (22, 81,82, 83 etc.)
anyone else wondering if CCSE and RRLE might be the same person? Always looking for errors or supposed violations?
Nah. The mods keep pretty close track of dupe accounts.
They seem similar, but there are more than a few folks out there with a penchant for being pedantic, myself included, each in our own area(s) of concentration.
Quote... when you're in a CAP uniform you are not allowed to use that radio as a transmitter.
You rules-worshipers crack me up. In an emergency then, would you take off your clothes before transmitting?
Quote from: airdale on June 11, 2008, 12:08:40 AM
Quote... when you're in a CAP uniform you are not allowed to use that radio as a transmitter.
You rules-worshipers crack me up. In an emergency then, would you take off your clothes before transmitting?
Please do, and get pictures too!
Quote from: RRLE on June 10, 2008, 12:34:09 AM
QuoteI just dont understand why we have the CG freqs
After my post, I did some research and found CAP (or anyone else in a plane) could use Marine VHF Ch6 or 16 for safety reasons. No other channels or freqs are authorized - at least none that I could find.
First - CFR Title 47: Telecommunication PART 80—STATIONS IN THE MARITIME SERVICES Subpart B—Applications and Licenses
Quote§ 80.47 Operation during emergency.
A station may be used for emergency communications when normal communication facilities are disrupted. The Commission may order the discontinuance of any such emergency communication service.
Notice this emergency use authorization is different then aeronautical or even the amateur bands. It does not authorize use do to 'immediate danger'. It only authorizes use if normal comms are disrupted. That would mean that Marine VHF is not allowed in an aircraft if the aero radio is working. However I did find two exceptions to that.
United States National Search and Rescue Supplement to the International Aeronautical and Maritime Search and Rescue Manual May 2000 (http://level2.cap.gov/documents/u_081503115809.pdf)
Footnote 4 to Figure 3-3. Alerting, SAR Operations, and Maritime Safety Frequencies states:
QuoteFrequencies 156.3 and 156.8 MHz may also be used by aircraft for safety purposes only.
156.3 = Marine VHF Ch 6
156.8 = Marine VHF Ch 16
Note the authorization is only for two channels (6 and 16) and for "safety purposes only". It is debatable whether that would cover using the channels to conduct an entire SAR case. What seems very clear is that CAP has no authorization to use the regular CG channels (22, 81,82, 83 etc.)
That makes perfect sense, I don't know how many of you are familiar with Operation Southeast Watch, with out going into great detail (OPSEC) our aircraft fly more than 3 miles out over water. If I were flying on one of these missions, regardless of what the FCC says, if we are going down I'm calling the Coast Guard on CH16. I would rather pay what ever fine the FCC slaps me with and get the Coast Guard bird in the air before we hit the water than wait the extra 5 minutes for the FAA, NTSB or who ever to call the Coast Guard.
On another point, lets say a CAP Flight is near the water, they see a red flare from a boat. It is hard for me to believe that the FCC is going to through a hissy fit if said CAP Flight attempts to hail the vessel on 16 and if not possible sends out a "Pan Pan" message to the Coast Guard or even a "Securitay" to get another boat in the area to go help them out.
If you have special mission needs, then steps should be taken in advance to insure everyone is safe and the mission can be executed effectively, that includes MOUs for comms, additional equipment, etc.
All of that is possible within our rules, with proper planning.
Anything more than that is the same spurious "safety" argument that members who wore Gore-Tex before it was approved repeated constantly.
Our organization has rules, and interacts with others that have rules, and we all live in a country with rules.
We're supposed to follow them, and plan accordingly so our operations stay within them.
QuoteOur organization has rules, and interacts with others that have rules, and we all live in a country with rules. We're supposed to follow them ... ...spurious "safety" argument...
Wow. I'll bet that you won't find a single organization (other than religions) that has "Making our members follow the rules." as a primary mission statement or organizational objective.
The reason, of course, is that the rules are a means and not an end. Other things, like safety and operational exigencies, can and should be cause for rules to be broken. The guy shooting flares from Rudin's theoretical boat would certainly be better off if it were Rudin or SAR-EMT1 in the airplane and not you. And making him better off
is an objective of the organization.
The FAA "gets it:"
Sec. 91.3 - Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.Maybe CAP needs a rule like this to make the real objective clearer to some.
The end does not justify the means, however the logic that it does is generally what causes most issues for members in CAP.
Take a look at a web site like Hamsexy.com (http://hamsexy.com) and see the ultimate road where this thinking can takes you.
(http://www.hamsexy.com/cms/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/dsc01287.jpg)
CAP has a very specific set of allowable missions and activities, is rarely in a first responder mode on anything but an ELT, and even more rarely do members find themselves in a position where standard CAP comm gear and cel phones are inadequate (in which case they probably shouldn't be there).
Remember, the consequences for this kind of activity are not limited to you, the collateral damage of screwing with CAP's reputation with outside agencies gets all over all of us.
Coming to the thread late..
Ky Wing has an MOU with the Department of Military Affairs which addresses the use of their statewide VHF microwave linked system. It's built out to provide coverage in the nooks and crannies where cell coverage DOESN'T work in E. KY. I was IC of a mission where that Verizon, Sprint, Cingular and T-mobile all didn't work plus the local cell company (yes they still exist) didn't work.. but I had Crystal clear VHF comms to the state EOC and my air ops branch director was calling the EOC 800 number and they were patching his voice calls to me and I was only using EF Johnson handheld.
* I am on digital Roam on EvDO in my hotel room in Santa Ana, CA with Sprint.. What's that about? Thought I was coming TO civiliation...
;)
Quote from: RRLE on June 09, 2008, 02:01:08 PM
QuoteAll CAP planes should have marine radio freqencies programmed into them so that they can work with units on rivers and lakes from the Coast Guard, Coast Guard Auxiliary, state fish and wildlife agencies, local sheriff departments, etc.
With the possible exception of "immediate danger to life or property" where does CAP get authorization to use Marine VHF radios in aircraft?
I can find nothing in the FCC Maritime Mobile Service Rules (http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?job=service_home&id=maritime) that allows it. The USCG Auxiliary installs radios in planes and vehicles but they can only be used when under CG orders and activing as a public vessel, aircraft, vehicle of the US.
Good intentions are not enough when it comes to the FCC. Without specific authorization, CAP cannot transmit on Marine frequencies from aircraft unless there is 'immediate danger'. Could you enlighten us as to where the specific authorization comes from?
You may want to check with your wing DC about programming USCG channels 21, 22, 23, etc into your corporate communications assets. In our wing, VHF mobile and aircraft VHF are all programmed with USCG VHF marine frequencies. No need to have a separate VHF marine transceiver. If I remember correctly, there was an MOU with the USCG regarding use of these frequencies. We've had several occasions in which communications with USCG helos has been necessary during both ELT and actual searches.
^ditto
In land-locked states the USCG is rarely involved in CAP missions.
Even in IL, there isn't even a CG station in the Chicago area, they come down from Milwaukee, and the few times we've done something on the lakefront, it for EPIRBS and the CPD Marine unit was more involved that the USCG.
Don't forget that there are CG Aux units in many inland areas that could be potential cooperators.... NC Wing has worked with them lately on lake patrols. Also, it isn't terribly unusual for CAP to be asked to help look for missing boaters and having marine frequencies programmed in CAP planes can allow communication with boats searching down on the water.