Switching to ABU's

[lordmonar]

Anyone who cares about what we wear or don't wear clearly doesn't understand the mission.

Sir.....please take that back.

[Walkman]

Okay.

We don't need camo.

We need a uniform that marks us as part of the USAF team.

If the USAF decided they were going to wear lime green fatigues (LGFs) I would want CAP in LGFs.

It is that simple.   Why is that so hard to understand?  What is wrong with wanting to look like the USAF?

Because CAP isn't the Air Force, nor the military. We are a CIVILIAN Auxiliary. We should be grateful that the AF even allows us to wear the blues or even the BDUs.

Thinking we "need" ABUs to "mark us as part of the USAF team" just screams of poseritis. Especially when a majority of the time, CAP and AF are completely separate from each other.

Anyone who cares about what we wear or don't wear clearly doesn't understand the mission.

Considering that Lordmonar has spend a long time in the AD USAF, calling him and other prior service CAP members that agree with him "posers" doesn't seem like the best idea.

[The14th]

Okay.

We don't need camo.

We need a uniform that marks us as part of the USAF team.

If the USAF decided they were going to wear lime green fatigues (LGFs) I would want CAP in LGFs.

It is that simple.   Why is that so hard to understand?  What is wrong with wanting to look like the USAF?

Because CAP isn't the Air Force, nor the military. We are a CIVILIAN Auxiliary. We should be grateful that the AF even allows us to wear the blues or even the BDUs.

Thinking we "need" ABUs to "mark us as part of the USAF team" just screams of poseritis. Especially when a majority of the time, CAP and AF are completely separate from each other.

Anyone who cares about what we wear or don't wear clearly doesn't understand the mission.

Considering that Lordmonar has spend a long time in the AD USAF, calling him and other prior service CAP members that agree with him "posers" doesn't seem like the best idea.

I didn't call him a poser. I said it comes off as poseritis to want ABUs just to "look like the AF" when we can and do the exact same job in BDUs. I see no positive in switching to ABUs and the only arguments I ever see are "so we can resemble our parent service" etc. What's it matter if we "look" like the AF? We aren't the Air Force. And the fact that we are even given the privilege to wear some of their uniforms and their old utility uniforms should be a positive, not a constant "Well, we don't like these because they are old and nobody else wears them. We want ABUs to look like you."

[SunDog]

I'm ex-USAF, but not all that comfortable looking semi-like my old service. For me, it does ring a bit like posing, but that's me, subjectively.  I'd prefer a unique, simple, non-USAF corporate look.  A COTS uniform, like an EMT, or other non-law enforcement look.  Lighten up on that military association, as that isn't what we do.  Don't we have more in common with volunteer firefighters than we do with USAF?

We work with USAF some, but not all that much, or that often.  Not so much that there is a reason we need to look like them.

[PHall]

I'm ex-USAF, but not all that comfortable looking semi-like my old service. For me, it does ring a bit like posing, but that's me, subjectively.  I'd prefer a unique, simple, non-USAF corporate look.  A COTS uniform, like an EMT, or other non-law enforcement look.  Lighten up on that military association, as that isn't what we do. Don't we have more in common with volunteer firefighters than we do with USAF?

We work with USAF some, but not all that much, or that often.  Not so much that there is a reason we need to look like them.

We have very little in common with volunteer firefighters. We are NOT first responders for starters.

[SunDog]

While not first responders, as you say, we do seem to have more in common with those folks than USAF.  Non military, volunteers, on call, imbedded with the local community. Day jobs outside the volunteer duties.

[Brad]

For what it's worth, the BBDU's are the same as SC's Task Force 1, the state USAR group that was one of the founding organizations of SUSAR (State Urban Search and Rescue Alliance). It operates as a specialized volunteer fire/rescue organization under the state firefighter mobilization program, with members being from a variety of other fire deparments, EMD agencies, etc.

http://www.sctf1.sc.gov/

[Storm Chaser]

Okay.

We don't need camo.

We need a uniform that marks us as part of the USAF team.

If the USAF decided they were going to wear lime green fatigues (LGFs) I would want CAP in LGFs.

It is that simple.   Why is that so hard to understand?  What is wrong with wanting to look like the USAF?

That only half of us are allowed to look like the USAF.

Not if I had my way.  But that is another thread.

The question was why do I want ABUs.....not what is the best uniform policy for CAP.

Actually, the question you asked was "What is wrong with wanting to look like the USAF?" I believe I answered it.

[Storm Chaser]

As someone who's still in the USAF, I can say that we don't need to wear the same uniform in order to be part of USAF. In fact, Air Force civilians are considered part of the Total Force (Active, Guard, Reserve, Civilians) and they don't wear uniforms at all. Many AF civilian security guards wear different uniforms from those of their USAF SF counterparts. And what about the Air Force Academy? They have some distinctive uniforms as well. I have nothing against the AF-style uniform (in fact, it's the one I wear most frequently), but I think it's more important that we have one uniform that all members can wear, even if that means giving up the AF-style uniform.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

First of all...we are never going to switch to ABU's.  I am good with that.  I am also good with BBDU's, and with making Woodland BDU's CAP-distinctive.

Second...I have noticed this (to me) disturbing trend since about the late '90s, with a small-but-very-vocal contingent saying we should not be wearing any Air Force uniform, and that we should be moving away from the Air Force in general - mostly, but not exclusively, in senior squadrons.  Those tend to be the ones who think ES is the sole raison d'etre for CAP existence.  Those tend to be the "polo and grey trousers" only crowd, who dislike ranks, customs and courtesies, etc.

As someone who's still in the USAF, I can say that we don't need to wear the same uniform in order to be part of USAF. In fact, Air Force civilians are considered part of the Total Force (Active, Guard, Reserve, Civilians) and they don't wear uniforms at all.

However, AF civilians are considered part of the Total Force, this is true.  But we are not, not on any AF documentation/website I have seen recently.  I have seen AF civilians recognised by the Air Force, and they are eligible to receive medals for their service that are very close counterparts to active AF decs...which we are not eligible to receive.

An AF civil service office worker is considered part of the Total Force, but a CAP volunteer is not.

I think it's more important that we have one uniform that all members can wear, even if that means giving up the AF-style uniform.

We had one of those, remember (OK, the bearded among us could not wear it, which I could not figure out)?  It got taken away from us.



It is likely that if there were a push for "one uniform for all, one uniform to find them, and in the darkness bind them," it would be the grey/white/blazer, which I (and many others) loathe.

For me, it does ring a bit like posing, but that's me, subjectively.  I'd prefer a unique, simple, non-USAF corporate look.  A COTS uniform, like an EMT, or other non-law enforcement look.  Lighten up on that military association, as that isn't what we do.

In other words, polos and grey trousers all the time.  Yech.

A poseur, to me, is someone pretending to be something they are not.  If I were to wear a Royal Air Force Air Chief Marshal's uniform, I would be a poseur (and a candidate for a room with padded walls).



However, when I wear the modified USAF uniform while serving in CAP, I am not a poseur, because I am not pretending to be something I am not.  I am an officer in the Civil Air Patrol, the volunteer Auxiliary of the United States Air Force.  I am proud of that connection with the Air Force.  Were we to lose it, I think we would be finished as an organisation.

We work with USAF some, but not all that much, or that often.  Not so much that there is a reason we need to look like them.

Why?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I see the term "parent organization" thrown around quite a bit on this board and I've never thought of the Air Force as a paternal. We were assigned to the Air Force, they weren't the driving force behind our organization's creation. They certainly didn't ask to be our overseers and they continually demonstrate by their budgeting and our re-assignments down the chain of command just how important they think we are. They hold us to the strict letter of the law regarding uniform wear while turning a blind eye to other organizations who wear what they want.

More like legal guardian than parent.

Unfortunately, I agree with you in a lot of ways.

State Defence Forces, for example, can wear the AF uniform for their Air Wings and the AF doesn't care, or, as has been pointed out on CT, seemingly has no control over it.

[Fubar]

It is that simple.   Why is that so hard to understand?  What is wrong with wanting to look like the USAF?

Because apparently the USAF has a problem with it, otherwise uniforms wouldn't even be on the radar.

Let's face it, we're not really on the "team" otherwise we wouldn't be following the USAF around like the little neighbor kid begging to hang out with the older cool kids. For reasons debated endlessly elsewhere, the USAF cares less and less about us to where they treat us as contractors instead of team members. We're good at what we do and we should be proud that our customer claims at the highest levels to be happy with us, although it's disappointing they say that while at the same time cutting nearly all the funding needed for them to provide their oversight and support roles as mandated by congress.

If the USAF found the work I do in CAP worthy of being called a member of the team and afforded me the opportunity to wear their uniforms, I'd consider it. But given we can never participate nor support the USAF's primary mission of fly, fight and win ... in air, space and cyberspace, I can't see how they'd think of us as part of the team. If I'm not on a team, the last thing I'm going to do is try to look like I am.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

It is that simple.   Why is that so hard to understand?  What is wrong with wanting to look like the USAF?

Because apparently the USAF has a problem with it, otherwise uniforms wouldn't even be on the radar.

Let's face it, we're not really on the "team" otherwise we wouldn't be following the USAF around like the little neighbor kid begging to hang out with the older cool kids. For reasons debated endlessly elsewhere, the USAF cares less and less about us to where they treat us as contractors instead of team members. We're good at what we do and we should be proud that our customer claims at the highest levels to be happy with us, although it's disappointing they say that while at the same time cutting nearly all the funding needed for them to provide their oversight and support roles as mandated by congress.

If the USAF found the work I do in CAP worthy of being called a member of the team and afforded me the opportunity to wear their uniforms, I'd consider it. But given we can never participate nor support the USAF's primary mission of fly, fight and win ... in air, space and cyberspace, I can't see how they'd think of us as part of the team. If I'm not on a team, the last thing I'm going to do is try to look like I am.

You're starting to sound as cynical as I am.

[Fubar]

You're starting to sound as cynical as I am.

I hope I don't come off as sounding like the USAF is some big bad bully in this, because I don't think they are. They have their mission and we simply don't fit into that picture. I don't blame them for having more important things to worry about and it seems like being legally required to be associated with us somewhat annoys them (I don't blame them for that either).

It doesn't hurt my feelings that I'm not a part of the "team" because the work we do, mostly independent of the Air Force, is worthwhile and productive. I feel a little cheated that we help guide a number of outstanding young adults into ROTC, Air Guard, and Air Force Academy without much support from them, but in the long run, they don't factor into what I do for CAP and couldn't care less if they want me on their team or not. I certainly don't care if I wear their uniform or not.

I'm more than content to keep the relationship where it's at now. They put as little monetary and personnel support into their legally required oversight and support roles as possible, the AFRCC keeps calling us for ELTs going off, and we continue to run our cadet, ES, and aerospace programs.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I don't think they're a "bully."

I just think that over the years so much distance has grown/been pushed between us that they simply do not care like they once did.

Yes, yes, I know all about what top brass at AFRCC/1AF say...but in my experience how we are treated by average Airman Snuffy (a mixture of "huh?" and/or, "oh, those salute trollers again") is very different.

I think right now it's a case of remaining in a platonic marriage for the sake of the kids (cadets).

[Panache]

I'm just amazed that another "When are we getting ABUs" thread garnered 33 replies.

[Luis R. Ramos]

I am just as amazed by your reply making it number 35!



Flyer

[The14th]

I apologize if my previous posts may have offended some people. It should be noted that it's my opinion, and not so much me trying to force that on anyone. It's just how I feel about the topic.

[Devil Doc]

WOW, Number 36, I feel Lucky.

All I know is what I have observed in the last couple of years.

1. State Defense Forces wear BDU and ACU. They pretty much wear whatever they want, and not many people say anything about it.Plump or Fuzzy it dosnt matter.
2. CG AUX, wear there "Parent" uniform, with subtle differences. I have not heard a single peep from the Coast Guard about them.
3. MARS, they wear the BDU pattern, and have DoD backing just like the CG AUX
4. Sea Cadets, Just liek CG Aux, and they get to do some pretty cool training I might Add.
5.JROTC- well you know the rest.

Now there is CAP. Sure we get to wear BDUs and Air Force Dress Blues, but...  we hardly get backing from the AF, (besides Funding) so why are we so different then the rest? 

[SunDog]

I've had a few missions where we worked with the Air Force, in concert with other entities. The briefings sure didn't SOUND like we were part of the Air Force.  Nothing negative, and all very professional on their part, but it was clear CAP was just another of the non-USAF groups helping out with the effort.  CAP wasn't in the Air Force fold, so to speak.  We don't do MARSA, don't formate, have different crew rest rules, different employment rules (IFR crew limitations, over-water restrictions, etc.) - and we spent some time sorting out what was allowed, what needed a waiver/permissions, things like that.  Just not the same organization.

Does any of that matter IRT uniforms? I dunno.  Personally, subjectively, I don't feel a close association/affinity with USAF as a CAP member.  Nothing wrong with AF blues - as good as any other uniform, except for our chunky and hairy folks. Man on the street is probably gonna think we're USAF.  I don't wear my old sage green nomex - went to blue, just for my own comfort level; I'm not in the Air Force anymore, I'm in CAP, and would probably prefer a distinct CAP appearance.  Right now we have that option, so it's cool.  Don't want to rip the blues off anyone's back - just don't see the strength of connection to Air Force as a reason to justify wearing them.