Activities External to CAP / Cadet Active Participation

[EMT-83]

^ How many require participation on nights and weekends?

[Майор Хаткевич]

^ How many require participation on nights and weekends?

In my area, none. Being on the chess team, cheerleading, football, or other sports isn't a requirement, while gym class is for x amount of semesters.

[Live2Learn]

Agreed, but active participation when absent for 3 months for football or other is tricky.

Can be yes.  But at the same time we can not nor should we be penalizing a cadet for anything academic related.  Not every cadet wants to go to a service academy or enlist in the service. And last time I checked we don't offer college scholarships.   

Can the cadet make meetings and other activities?  Are they giving their all and then some when they do show?  Need to take everything on a case by case basis and look at the total person.

Football, chess club, etc are not academics. They are as extracurricular as CAP.

CAP is just 'another' extracurricular activity.  A lot of important activities (foot ball teaches teamwork and the importance of physical fitness, chess the ability to visualize and anticipate, scouting a whole raft of important values, etc., etc.) compete with CAP.  So, why the rigid view of CAP's exclusive demand on limited time?  I'm not tracking on the rationale.  Isn't online participation "participation"?  If the cadet can actively participate by attending meetings 9 months out of the year (or 6 months) doesn't that represent a significant chuck of their allotted 24/7/52/365?  How does pushing a cadet to leave CAP either serve the individual (a person who is interested in the youth programs of CAP) or of Civil Air Patrol as it strives to fulfill its mission of developing future leaders and citizens?

[Eclipse]

CAP is just 'another' extracurricular activity.  A lot of important activities (foot ball teaches teamwork and the importance of physical fitness, chess the ability to visualize and anticipate, scouting a whole raft of important values, etc., etc.) compete with CAP.  So, why the rigid view of CAP's exclusive demand on limited time?  I'm not tracking on the rationale.  Isn't online participation "participation"?  If the cadet can actively participate by attending meetings 9 months out of the year (or 6 months) doesn't that represent a significant chuck of their allotted 24/7/52/365?  How does pushing a cadet to leave CAP either serve the individual (a person who is interested in the youth programs of CAP) or of Civil Air Patrol as it strives to fulfill its mission of developing future leaders and citizens?

Life is choice.  As you say, the time is limited, but the rest of CAP doesn't sit waiting until you're "ready" to engage.

No one is saying you 2B a cadet the first meeting they miss, but if you're off for the whole Fall for football, don't expect to get promoted
the one night you come back, or have any position of influence in the squadron which requires physical presence, and at some subjective point, your absence starts to become an issue in the "failure to progress / active participation" category.

"Where's the Cadet Commander?"

"Oh he's a great kid!  He's in college, but he tries to come back for the holidays..."

"OK - where's the Deputy?"

"His track meets are the same nights as meetings."

"First Shirt?"

"Chess club."

"Flight Commander?"

"Same track meets - it's so great these kids are friends outside CAP..."

"What about all these cadets in the other room, who's leading them?"

"Sometimes one of the seniors will go in there and see what they are doing, but it's not as much of an issue as it was before..."

"?"

"Not that many show up anymore, and the ones that do aren't progressig and don't seem to have a clue what they are doing.
Kids these days, amirite?"

"..."

"Did I mention our Cadet Commander is in ROTC? Great kid..."

[Storm Chaser]

That's always been a pet peeve of mine. If these kids don't show up to football practice, they don't get to play. But if they miss a whole bunch of CAP meetings, they still get promoted. Not if I have anything to say about it.

Life is full of choices. If you want to progress in CAP, you need to put the same effort that you put in other activities. Period.

[Майор Хаткевич]

That's always been a pet peeve of mine. If these kids don't show up to football practice, they don't get to play. But if they miss a whole bunch of CAP meetings, they still get promoted. Not if I have anything to say about it.

Life is full of choices. If you want to progress in CAP, you need to put the same effort that you put in other activities. Period.

Yep. I'm not sure why there seems so much disagreement on this point. CAP should not be what a cadet "eats and breathes", but there need to be expectations being met before promotions or duty assignments. I don't get how being a linebacker on the football team gets prioritized over CAP (or at least the expectation of participation and promotion).


Choices. Lots of choices, and probably one of the best lessons we can give cadets instead of ribbon and grade handouts.

[TheSkyHornet]

CAP is just 'another' extracurricular activity.  A lot of important activities (foot ball teaches teamwork and the importance of physical fitness, chess the ability to visualize and anticipate, scouting a whole raft of important values, etc., etc.) compete with CAP.  So, why the rigid view of CAP's exclusive demand on limited time?  I'm not tracking on the rationale.  Isn't online participation "participation"?  If the cadet can actively participate by attending meetings 9 months out of the year (or 6 months) doesn't that represent a significant chuck of their allotted 24/7/52/365?  How does pushing a cadet to leave CAP either serve the individual (a person who is interested in the youth programs of CAP) or of Civil Air Patrol as it strives to fulfill its mission of developing future leaders and citizens?

Life is choice.  As you say, the time is limited, but the rest of CAP doesn't sit waiting until you're "ready" to engage.

No one is saying you 2B a cadet the first meeting they miss, but if you're off for the whole Fall for football, don't expect to get promoted
the one night you come back, or have any position of influence in the squadron which requires physical presence, and at some subjective point, your absence starts to become an issue in the "failure to progress / active participation" category.

"Where's the Cadet Commander?"

"Oh he's a great kid!  He's in college, but he tries to come back for the holidays..."

"OK - where's the Deputy?"

"His track meets are the same nights as meetings."

"First Shirt?"

"Chess club."

"Flight Commander?"

"Same track meets - it's so great these kids are friends outside CAP..."

"What about all these cadets in the other room, who's leading them?"

"Sometimes one of the seniors will go in there and see what they are doing, but it's not as much of an issue as it was before..."

"?"

"Not that many show up anymore, and the ones that do aren't progressig and don't seem to have a clue what they are doing.
Kids these days, amirite?"

"..."

"Did I mention our Cadet Commander is in ROTC? Great kid..."

I think this truly hits on the nail of where I was hammering.

That's always been a pet peeve of mine. If these kids don't show up to football practice, they don't get to play. But if they miss a whole bunch of CAP meetings, they still get promoted. Not if I have anything to say about it.

Life is full of choices. If you want to progress in CAP, you need to put the same effort that you put in other activities. Period.

Yep. I'm not sure why there seems so much disagreement on this point. CAP should not be what a cadet "eats and breathes", but there need to be expectations being met before promotions or duty assignments. I don't get how being a linebacker on the football team gets prioritized over CAP (or at least the expectation of participation and promotion).


Choices. Lots of choices, and probably one of the best lessons we can give cadets instead of ribbon and grade handouts.

That's my point as well.

You can't do everything. You can't be on the ski team, the basketball team, and the swimming team all at the same time if they meet on the same days.

Why is CAP different? Why is it that CAP is the one that they give up? I guess that's a retention thing as well---what makes them want to choose CAP over football?

I do make a point about the progression of cadets as they advance into higher grades and duty positions:
This is not a free-for-all. It's a team; a family. We may not all get along, but we all have a job to do. Part of your job is to build yourself up to be on service, and in so doing, you will get to the top and your job is to help someone else succeed you. If you are here to be the team captain of a team that you don't like, and you think you can do it all on your own because it's your progression not theirs, I don't want you here.

If you do take that break, and you decide that there are more important things that need your attention, by all means. Talk to me when you come back. If there's work you can do outside of the meeting, great; we could use the help. But if I need you to show up and physically be here because that's the role you volunteered for, know this---you can't do everything. You have to make a choice. We can always figure it out and tailor plans based on our resources and scheduling. Nothing is set in stone.

[kwe1009]

Agreed, but active participation when absent for 3 months for football or other is tricky.

Can be yes.  But at the same time we can not nor should we be penalizing a cadet for anything academic related.  Not every cadet wants to go to a service academy or enlist in the service. And last time I checked we don't offer college scholarships.   

Can the cadet make meetings and other activities?  Are they giving their all and then some when they do show?  Need to take everything on a case by case basis and look at the total person.

Football, chess club, etc are not academics. They are as extracurricular as CAP.

CAP is just 'another' extracurricular activity.  A lot of important activities (foot ball teaches teamwork and the importance of physical fitness, chess the ability to visualize and anticipate, scouting a whole raft of important values, etc., etc.) compete with CAP.  So, why the rigid view of CAP's exclusive demand on limited time?  I'm not tracking on the rationale.  Isn't online participation "participation"?  If the cadet can actively participate by attending meetings 9 months out of the year (or 6 months) doesn't that represent a significant chuck of their allotted 24/7/52/365?  How does pushing a cadet to leave CAP either serve the individual (a person who is interested in the youth programs of CAP) or of Civil Air Patrol as it strives to fulfill its mission of developing future leaders and citizens?

For me if the cadet is active for only 6 months out of the year do to other commitments, then fine.  But during the period the cadet is out they are not going to get promoted or given a duty position.  Those are reserved for actively participating cadets.  I will never 2B a cadet for not attending meetings due to other activities but since they are not "actively participating" they should not expect to be given a duty assignment or promotion.

I don't see this as pushing anyone away from CAP for this stance.  I see it as following the spirit and letter of CAP regulations.  I haven't lost any cadets who were truly interested in CAP as something more than a resume filler.

As others have stated here, why should CAP be the organization that always takes a backseat without any repercussions to the cadet?  I fully support my cadets who choose to participate in other activities but I don't give them a pass for not attending meetings or activities.  That is not fair to the cadets who are there every week.

[Live2Learn]

For me if the cadet is active for only 6 months out of the year do to other commitments, then fine.  But during the period the cadet is out they are not going to get promoted or given a duty position.  Those are reserved for actively participating cadets.  I will never 2B a cadet for not attending meetings due to other activities but since they are not "actively participating" they should not expect to be given a duty assignment or promotion.

I don't see this as pushing anyone away from CAP for this stance.  I see it as following the spirit and letter of CAP regulations.  I haven't lost any cadets who were truly interested in CAP as something more than a resume filler.

As others have stated here, why should CAP be the organization that always takes a backseat without any repercussions to the cadet?  I fully support my cadets who choose to participate in other activities but I don't give them a pass for not attending meetings or activities.  That is not fair to the cadets who are there every week.

I was with you until the last paragraph. 

Obviously, if a cadet can participate in CAP for six months, nine months, whatever, then CAP isn't "always taking a back seat" during that serious chunk of the cadet's life. 

However, participating online is still participating.  For example, CyberPatriots is a big deal, and getting to be a big deal with national significance.  I'm sure most of us have seen reports of booming need for cybersecurity experts.  How better to train them than through a structured, principled program like CyberPatriot?  If a cadet can make the time ON THEIR terms to participate in this program, perhaps even mentoring other cadets who do have the time to put on a uniform and attend scheduled CAP meetings is this 'non-participation' that should have "repercussions to the cadet"? I don't think so.   Other leadership oriented programs targeted toward youth exist, and programs that allow significant growth in STEM and robotics  skills (again, a big and growing need).  Cadets who learn those skills may have opportunities to share them during periods of attendance - for the benefit of other cadets.  The arguments for presence at CAP meetings are important for the socialization and interactions opportunities they provide.  But, as is often the case, they are not compelling in all circumstances.  Some CAP positions (C/1st Sgt; C/Commander; C/whatever) require presence because that's where the role is needed - in person and at most meetings.  Other duties can be accomplished without presence at a high proportion of meetings.  Like it or not, a lot of adult careers now do not have an anchor to place.  I view a cadet who can function with a period participation, yet non-attendance as one who is learning skills that CAP and most public schools don't teach.

[Майор Хаткевич]

For me if the cadet is active for only 6 months out of the year do to other commitments, then fine.  But during the period the cadet is out they are not going to get promoted or given a duty position.  Those are reserved for actively participating cadets.  I will never 2B a cadet for not attending meetings due to other activities but since they are not "actively participating" they should not expect to be given a duty assignment or promotion.

I don't see this as pushing anyone away from CAP for this stance.  I see it as following the spirit and letter of CAP regulations.  I haven't lost any cadets who were truly interested in CAP as something more than a resume filler.

As others have stated here, why should CAP be the organization that always takes a backseat without any repercussions to the cadet?  I fully support my cadets who choose to participate in other activities but I don't give them a pass for not attending meetings or activities.  That is not fair to the cadets who are there every week.

I was with you until the last paragraph. 

Obviously, if a cadet can participate in CAP for six months, nine months, whatever, then CAP isn't "always taking a back seat" during that serious chunk of the cadet's life. 

However, participating online is still participating.  For example, CyberPatriots is a big deal, and getting to be a big deal with national significance.  I'm sure most of us have seen reports of booming need for cybersecurity experts.  How better to train them than through a structured, principled program like CyberPatriot?  If a cadet can make the time ON THEIR terms to participate in this program, perhaps even mentoring other cadets who do have the time to put on a uniform and attend scheduled CAP meetings is this 'non-participation' that should have "repercussions to the cadet"? I don't think so.   Other leadership oriented programs targeted toward youth exist, and programs that allow significant growth in STEM and robotics  skills (again, a big and growing need).  Cadets who learn those skills may have opportunities to share them during periods of attendance - for the benefit of other cadets.  The arguments for presence at CAP meetings are important for the socialization and interactions opportunities they provide.  But, as is often the case, they are not compelling in all circumstances.  Some CAP positions (C/1st Sgt; C/Commander; C/whatever) require presence because that's where the role is needed - in person and at most meetings.  Other duties can be accomplished without presence at a high proportion of meetings.  Like it or not, a lot of adult careers now do not have an anchor to place.  I view a cadet who can function with a period participation, yet non-attendance as one who is learning skills that CAP and most public schools don't teach.

That's not how the cadet program works. At all.

[Eclipse]

+1

[Spam]

For me if the cadet is active for only 6 months out of the year do to other commitments, then fine.  But during the period the cadet is out they are not going to get promoted or given a duty position.  Those are reserved for actively participating cadets.  I will never 2B a cadet for not attending meetings due to other activities but since they are not "actively participating" they should not expect to be given a duty assignment or promotion.

I don't see this as pushing anyone away from CAP for this stance.  I see it as following the spirit and letter of CAP regulations.  I haven't lost any cadets who were truly interested in CAP as something more than a resume filler.

As others have stated here, why should CAP be the organization that always takes a backseat without any repercussions to the cadet?  I fully support my cadets who choose to participate in other activities but I don't give them a pass for not attending meetings or activities.  That is not fair to the cadets who are there every week.

I was with you until the last paragraph. 

Obviously, if a cadet can participate in CAP for six months, nine months, whatever, then CAP isn't "always taking a back seat" during that serious chunk of the cadet's life. 

However, participating online is still participating.  For example, CyberPatriots is a big deal, and getting to be a big deal with national significance.  I'm sure most of us have seen reports of booming need for cybersecurity experts.  How better to train them than through a structured, principled program like CyberPatriot?  If a cadet can make the time ON THEIR terms to participate in this program, perhaps even mentoring other cadets who do have the time to put on a uniform and attend scheduled CAP meetings is this 'non-participation' that should have "repercussions to the cadet"? I don't think so.   Other leadership oriented programs targeted toward youth exist, and programs that allow significant growth in STEM and robotics  skills (again, a big and growing need).  Cadets who learn those skills may have opportunities to share them during periods of attendance - for the benefit of other cadets.  The arguments for presence at CAP meetings are important for the socialization and interactions opportunities they provide.  But, as is often the case, they are not compelling in all circumstances.  Some CAP positions (C/1st Sgt; C/Commander; C/whatever) require presence because that's where the role is needed - in person and at most meetings.  Other duties can be accomplished without presence at a high proportion of meetings.  Like it or not, a lot of adult careers now do not have an anchor to place.  I view a cadet who can function with a period participation, yet non-attendance as one who is learning skills that CAP and most public schools don't teach.

I'm with the other guys as well.  Our program (as evidenced by the Cadet Oath) specifically requires attendance at unit meetings and active participation in unit activities - and no waiver allows that participation in mandatory contact hours to be replaced by telecoms and emails and well wishing "on their terms".

So, I was forced last November to relieve one of my cadet Flight Commanders whose varsity sport practice was taking up his meeting nights. His devotion to that sport in lieu of his accepted CAP commitment meant that he missed making his Mitchell and applying for scholarships by the deadline (sorry, you made your choice). Further, a cadet who accepts a staff slot and makes that commitment and then abandons it in favor of an outside activity will likely see that behavior reflected in any letters of recommendation (if any) we write for him for college (and I think we're pretty good at it - we have four of our cadets currently at military academies, plus several ROTC scholarship winners).

The same holds true even for cadet non-staff. Four or five years ago, I had a cadet who started skipping every meeting, claiming it conflicted with his school Robotics Club (which he falsely tried to claim was an academic excused absence - NO, as it was a club, not for a grade). He was a single-dimension kid - robotics only, no PT, no leadership, no AE or CD, nothing else, which isn't the program. He begged me to approve his application for the CAP robotics special activity, which I did after counseling, with the understanding that he'd return to regular attendance. He came to two meetings, got slotted, stopped coming, and by April I called NHQ/CP and told them to dump him as he no longer had my approval to attend. You do not get to skip mandatory contact hours and cherry pick your activities in the CAP cadet program of record.


V/R
Spam

[Eclipse]

That whole "I have to do everything" for my resume trips up a lot of cadets, adults, too.

It's a fine line between "well rounded" and "box checker" - recruiters see hundreds of the same resume and know how many hours there
are in a week.  At some point you unlock "jack of all trades, master of none" and get put on the "no" pile.

[kwe1009]

That whole "I have to do everything" for my resume trips up a lot of cadets, adults, too.

It's a fine line between "well rounded" and "box checker" - recruiters see hundreds of the same resume and know how many hours there
are in a week.  At some point you unlock "jack of all trades, master of none" and get put on the "no" pile.

As someone who has been in a position to review those resumes and interview teenagers I can tell you that I look for quality over quantity.  Being "president of XYZ club, cadet commander of CAP unit with over 20 cadets" looks better to me than the laundry list of "participant or member of XYZ organization." 

This is also what I tell my cadets and their parents regularly:  Being a member of 50 clubs will not get you into a certain college or service academy.  Showing you are a leader in a hand full of activities will go much farther.  Also, don't forget to reserve some time to simply be a teenager.  You are only young once.

[Eclipse]

Also, don't forget to reserve some time to simply be a teenager.  You are only young once.

Yeah, this is important too, especially in a CAP context.

Most cadets only get one or two passes at major leadership positions at NCSA, encampments, etc.
They should consider that when making their choices - NESA will be there forever (in theory), but
you may get to be a phase 3/4 cadet with the opportunity to be a cadet commander once, and this time
next year, for whatever reason, you might not even be a member...

[stitchmom]

I don't mean the ribbon but in general I wish there wasn't such an emphasis on official hours for a 501c.  I haven't seen a whole lot of good or mature character from participants.  A kid who has learned to be responsible for themselves and watches out for those vulnerable in society contributes far more to society and eliminates the need or at least reduces the demand for many of these 501c places than these "service" hours. 

I'm not against organized projects. I've taught mine from birth many hands make for light work, no even steven when it comes to getting a job done,  if it's helping bring in groceries or an organized project. What I really don't like is what I would call veneration of the kids doing them. I had mine volunteer long before we knew of CAP, but it was for their own character and to learn professional behavior from the people working there, not because I felt like they were bestowing graces on the community.

It's like there isn't enough on character and too much on external stuff. 

[Eclipse]

It's like there isn't enough on character and too much on external stuff.

The problem is that "character" is a very subjective term, and hard to quantify on a ledger, and absent a mandate
by the school, some kids wold never do anything.

Evan as-is, my kids' school allow service at any time, so it's best to knock those hours out in the summer when there's less
pressure (and demand).  Mine are gardening at the library tonight for hours for next school year, but as always, there
will be a handful next May scrambling to drag old ladies across streets against their will so they can graduate.

[stitchmom]

That whole "I have to do everything" for my resume trips up a lot of cadets, adults, too.

It's a fine line between "well rounded" and "box checker" - recruiters see hundreds of the same resume and know how many hours there
are in a week.  At some point you unlock "jack of all trades, master of none" and get put on the "no" pile.

As someone who has been in a position to review those resumes and interview teenagers I can tell you that I look for quality over quantity.  Being "president of XYZ club, cadet commander of CAP unit with over 20 cadets" looks better to me than the laundry list of "participant or member of XYZ organization." 

This is also what I tell my cadets and their parents regularly:  Being a member of 50 clubs will not get you into a certain college or service academy.  Showing you are a leader in a hand full of activities will go much farther.  Also, don't forget to reserve some time to simply be a teenager.  You are only young once.

It seems be to worse in the Northeast with the gazillion of activities they put the kids in. I don't mean being a  leader but how do they get anything out of them without having time to practice or work on them or develop more interest in the subject.  Not just with activities but even school subjects like events in history.  Even if they don't become Titled Leader, win the Hobby Award, or become The Expert there is something to really learning about something or learning to do something and it takes time to read books, work on a craft, practice music, or be prepared enough as a participant so the leader can present or teach without having to backtrack.

[TheSkyHornet]

That whole "I have to do everything" for my resume trips up a lot of cadets, adults, too.

It's a fine line between "well rounded" and "box checker" - recruiters see hundreds of the same resume and know how many hours there
are in a week.  At some point you unlock "jack of all trades, master of none" and get put on the "no" pile.

As someone who has been in a position to review those resumes and interview teenagers I can tell you that I look for quality over quantity.  Being "president of XYZ club, cadet commander of CAP unit with over 20 cadets" looks better to me than the laundry list of "participant or member of XYZ organization." 

This is also what I tell my cadets and their parents regularly:  Being a member of 50 clubs will not get you into a certain college or service academy.  Showing you are a leader in a hand full of activities will go much farther.  Also, don't forget to reserve some time to simply be a teenager.  You are only young once.

It seems be to worse in the Northeast with the gazillion of activities they put the kids in. I don't mean being a  leader but how do they get anything out of them without having time to practice or work on them or develop more interest in the subject.  Not just with activities but even school subjects like events in history.  Even if they don't become Titled Leader, win the Hobby Award, or become The Expert there is something to really learning about something or learning to do something and it takes time to read books, work on a craft, practice music, or be prepared enough as a participant so the leader can present or teach without having to backtrack.

We had a former unit commander who took cadets to the local library to read to the mentally handicapped and provide them lunch.

Volunteer service or not, that was a huge retention issue.

[Alaric]

That whole "I have to do everything" for my resume trips up a lot of cadets, adults, too.

It's a fine line between "well rounded" and "box checker" - recruiters see hundreds of the same resume and know how many hours there
are in a week.  At some point you unlock "jack of all trades, master of none" and get put on the "no" pile.

As someone who has been in a position to review those resumes and interview teenagers I can tell you that I look for quality over quantity.  Being "president of XYZ club, cadet commander of CAP unit with over 20 cadets" looks better to me than the laundry list of "participant or member of XYZ organization." 

This is also what I tell my cadets and their parents regularly:  Being a member of 50 clubs will not get you into a certain college or service academy.  Showing you are a leader in a hand full of activities will go much farther.  Also, don't forget to reserve some time to simply be a teenager.  You are only young once.

It seems be to worse in the Northeast with the gazillion of activities they put the kids in. I don't mean being a  leader but how do they get anything out of them without having time to practice or work on them or develop more interest in the subject.  Not just with activities but even school subjects like events in history.  Even if they don't become Titled Leader, win the Hobby Award, or become The Expert there is something to really learning about something or learning to do something and it takes time to read books, work on a craft, practice music, or be prepared enough as a participant so the leader can present or teach without having to backtrack.

We had a former unit commander who took cadets to the local library to read to the mentally handicapped and provide them lunch.

Volunteer service or not, that was a huge retention issue.

Good retention issue, or bad retention issue