AFROTC Uniform

[JROB]

I have a cadet who is going to an interview for an AFROTC scholarship. Would wearing of the blue service uniform be appropriate?

[Eclipse]

Is this a CAP cadet going for an AFROTC scholarship in his role as a CAP cadet?

[JROB]

Yes this is a CAP cadet going for an AFROTC Scholarship

[RiverAux]

It doesn't sound like a CAP-related activity to me, so my opinion would be no. 

[kd8gua]

If the cadet was a Spaatz, Eaker, Earhart, or Mitchell cadet, I think it would be feasible to go to an AFROTC interview in CAP uniform, since those ribbons are authorized for wear in the AFROTC program.

[DC]

^ That's kinda twisted logic, IMHO. I would just have him wear civvies, he is still technically a civilian.

[Dragon 3-2]

I did mine in  my blues, and they looked favorably towards it.

[David Lewis]

All of his CAP resume will already be listed on his application.  In this instance, he should wear business atire, i.e. sports jacket, dark trousers, nice white shirt, and a conservative necktie.

[raivo]

^ That's kinda twisted logic, IMHO. I would just have him wear civvies, he is still technically a civilian.

Agreed.

CAP, while a great program, is for all intents and purposes just another community service activity (albeit, one with a military focus to it.) It's not really appropriate to wear the uniform outside of a CAP activity.

[Cecil DP]

Wear of the CAP uniform is not appropriate for a college interview!

[Spike]

As a member of the Admissions board for my Senator, I sit with 5 other people.  Each time a person comes in for the interview wearing a uniform of some type (unless it is a military uniform) it is looked at unfavorably by the majority.  They believe that the person is just trying to impress the board with clothes.  Me, I take into account how dedicated that individual must be for being proud enough to wear their uniform. 

I say, if you set up your application with the majority of it in reference to what you did in CAP, wear the CAP uniform.  Most AF Officers in ROTC know what CAP is. 

You will surely stand out (hopefully for the positive)

[RiverAux]

Wear of the CAP uniform is not a matter of personal choice, it is a matter subject to CAP regulation.  This is not a CAP activity and the wear of the uniform would violate CAP regulations. 

[flyguy06]

I wear my CAP uniform every year to an awrads banquet sponsored by this youth aviation group I belong too.AP. Its not a CAP actitivity. Is that not approriate?

[RiverAux]

If you were invited to the banquet to represent CAP thats fine.  If you just happen to belong to this other group and you're not doing anything there for CAP purposes (recruiting, for example), then no, it wouldn't be appropriate to wear the CAP uniform.

If there is any gray area about it, get your commander involved and let him/her make the call. 

Of course some here feel its appropriate to wear the CAP uniform almost anytime. 

[Thom]

If you were invited to the banquet to represent CAP thats fine.  If you just happen to belong to this other group and you're not doing anything there for CAP purposes (recruiting, for example), then no, it wouldn't be appropriate to wear the CAP uniform.

If there is any gray area about it, get your commander involved and let him/her make the call. 

Of course some here feel its appropriate to wear the CAP uniform almost anytime.

Not to take this too far off track, but I personally am ALWAYS recruiting for CAP unless the function is such that it is not permissible or is insensitive.  So, unless I'm at a function that specifically prohibits recruiting or a funeral, I'm looking to recruit.

And I'm NOT a Recruiting Officer.

I carry my CAP business cards and I'm always ready with a sales pitch for anyone even mildly interested.

We ALL should be prepared to be a 'recruiting officer' at any time.

That said, I wouldn't use it as an excuse to wear my uniform to a high school football game or night at the symphony or some such, but you could conceivably justify something like a high school reunion (assuming you are still local) as a recruiting exercise.  Depends on your Unit Commander.

Just my point of view, now back to your regularly argumentative thread.

Thom

[Hawk200]

I have a cadet who is going to an interview for an AFROTC scholarship. Would wearing of the blue service uniform be appropriate?

No, not really. As mentioned above, it's not a CAP function or business. If it's on the resume, the uniform is redundant. If it's not on the resume, and one wears a uniform, people may wonder why it's not on the resume.

I've had cadets that wanted to wear the uniform to school, just to wear it. That's the wrong reason. It may impress some people, but it doesn't define a person, and could actually hurt the organization's reputation.

Not to take this too far off track, but I personally am ALWAYS recruiting for CAP unless the function is such that it is not permissible or is insensitive.  So, unless I'm at a function that specifically prohibits recruiting or a funeral, I'm looking to recruit.

A uniform does not equal recruiting. We shouldn't be considering a uniform as PR by itself.

I carry my CAP business cards and I'm always ready with a sales pitch for anyone even mildly interested.

I think that's a sensible practice. One thing that might go a long way is wearing a standard conservative business suit with a some type of CAP lapel pin. When someone asks, that's the time for the pitch.

That said, I wouldn't use it as an excuse to wear my uniform to a high school football game or night at the symphony or some such, but you could conceivably justify something like a high school reunion (assuming you are still local) as a recruiting exercise.

A lot of people try to justify things in such a manner. A uniform is not intended to recruit, it's intended to show affiliation with a a group or organization. Yeah, if you're wearing it outside the organization's normal activities, people will probably ask. But it's not always appropriate to do so. As mentioned above, a simple lapel pin could go a long way.

[Spike]

Guys, the kid is going to sit in front of Air Force Officers.  The CAP uniform is appropriate in this case. 

[RiverAux]

Hmm, so when I went to the local military base to apply for pemit to hunt on the base, I should have worn my CAP BDUs?

[Spike]

^ Out of context and you know it!

[RiverAux]

Not really.  I could try to argue that as a member of CAP I should be given more consideration than those not affiliated in the military in some way and that because I've been fingerprinted I am more trustworthy to have a gun on the base than the general public. 

These arguments are pure hogwash of course.  But again, trying to say that this is a CAP activity at which a CAP uniform is authorized is hogwash too.  Heck, if he was the star quarterback on his football team, which demonstrates a lot of leadership capability, would we say that it makes sense for him to show up in his football uniform that he has probably been told can only be worn while he is playing football?

[Spike]

I give up.  This is such an inconsequential issue, I could care one way or the other. 

[SarDragon]

I give up.  This is such an inconsequential issue, I could care one way or the other.

So if you could care, which way is it?

OTOH, I couldn't care less.

Think about it.

[flyboy53]

Wear the uniform. Be a professional. Think about that!

[Major Carrales]

Get your squadron commander's approval...then you won't have RiverAux "shorts in a sheet bend." 

[raivo]

Heck, if he was the star quarterback on his football team, which demonstrates a lot of leadership capability, would we say that it makes sense for him to show up in his football uniform that he has probably been told can only be worn while he is playing football?

Bingo.

[Spike]

Heck, if he was the star quarterback on his football team, which demonstrates a lot of leadership capability, would we say that it makes sense for him to show up in his football uniform that he has probably been told can only be worn while he is playing football?

Bingo.

Lt, I disagree.  I know I "gave up" earlier, but I must drag myself back into the pit.  CAP (as the "official USAF Auxiliary") is the Air Force Auxiliary.  Going for an AFROTC scholarship in front of "real life AF Officers" (like yourself) in your CAP uniform is very professional.  If a Cadet has the CAP training, and has dedicated hours to supporting USAF missions, let the kid show it by allowing him or her to wear the uniform. 

Relating a CAP Cadet to the Jock Ball Player is out of context and almost not comparable.  Lets give our Cadets the edge over the typical "star football player" that needs a scholarship because he actually was suck at football. 

Not to go off on a tangent, but all too often I have kids sit before me and try to explain why they deserve to attend a military academy.  When all of the other board members finish asking their questions I ask "Why do you want to be a Commissioned Military Officer", and "tell me what will make you a better Officer than the other applicants".  With those questions I usually get a "well, umm.....I would have to say, um....well, I ahh...um".  The ones that actually thought about what attending an Academy means, or who has a strong desire to be an Officer, has a snap answer.  Favorite answer to my question about three years ago was "I want to be an Officer so I can persuade those around me to end the war"  (well his application got as far as the recycle bin, on a 5-0 vote to non-select)

So, if you got the uniform, wear it and be proud.  If you want to wear your football jersey, go for it but know we are all laughing at you! 

[Fifinella]

Run it up your chain of command, to include DCC and CC.  If they grant permission, then I think wearing the uniform of the USAF Auxiliary is entirely appropriate for an AFROTC or USAFA interview.  It demonstrates to the board that you are familiar with Air Force customs and courtesies, that you know how to wear the uniform (and shows them how you look in uniform, i.e. meet standards), and that you know "what you are getting yourself in for".  If you are at all unsure about the attitude of your particular board/interviewer toward candidates wearing CAP or JROTC uniforms to the interview, call the secretary/administrator and ask if there is a preference or policy for candidate attire.

[raivo]

Lt, I disagree.  I know I "gave up" earlier, but I must drag myself back into the pit.  CAP (as the "official USAF Auxiliary") is the Air Force Auxiliary.  Going for an AFROTC scholarship in front of "real life AF Officers" (like yourself) in your CAP uniform is very professional.  If a Cadet has the CAP training, and has dedicated hours to supporting USAF missions, let the kid show it by allowing him or her to wear the uniform. 

Relating a CAP Cadet to the Jock Ball Player is out of context and almost not comparable.  Lets give our Cadets the edge over the typical "star football player" that needs a scholarship because he actually was suck at football. 

Not to go off on a tangent, but all too often I have kids sit before me and try to explain why they deserve to attend a military academy.  When all of the other board members finish asking their questions I ask "Why do you want to be a Commissioned Military Officer", and "tell me what will make you a better Officer than the other applicants".  With those questions I usually get a "well, umm.....I would have to say, um....well, I ahh...um".  The ones that actually thought about what attending an Academy means, or who has a strong desire to be an Officer, has a snap answer.  Favorite answer to my question about three years ago was "I want to be an Officer so I can persuade those around me to end the war"  (well his application got as far as the recycle bin, on a 5-0 vote to non-select)

So, if you got the uniform, wear it and be proud.  If you want to wear your football jersey, go for it but know we are all laughing at you!

Truth be told, I'm actually close to being on the fence, but I still fall in the "against" category. My gut feeling just says "no," but that's me.

[Short Field]

If you wear the uniform, you had better make absolutely sure it is perfectly set up and that your military bearing and manners are absolutely perfect.   I see a lot more room to screw it up than to excel.

[afgeo4]

I'm a squadron commander and one of my cadets has the same interview coming up and asked me the same exact question.

My answer: Wear your service dress uniform.

Why? Because I KNOW he wears it 110% properly and looks good doing it. He is not interviewing for admission into college. He's interviewing for admission into the Air Force. Him wearing the Air Force uniform properly and with respect and showing the officers full Air Force customs & courtesies is more than appropriate.

CAP uniforms are authorized at CAP activities. CAP, specifically the cadet program, is a function of USAF. Thus, I think it is appropriate and according to the regs. Of course if RiverAux prefers, I'll give my cadet a stern index finger shaking once he accepts his four year scholarship from the Air Force.

[Cecil DP]

While I don't think it's appropriate, it's not my scholarship $$$ on the line either. I would follow Fiffenella's advice and call the AFROTC interviewer and ask if the CAP uniform is acceptable.

[CAP277]

This is ridiculous. Wear your CAP uniform, with your commander's approval. Wear it properly, look sharp. It's a great talking point, I wore my short sleeve blues combo to my AFROTC scholarship interview, and I'd say in part because of it the Air Force is currently paying for my college education. So clearly it paid off for me, and the Unit Admission Officer that conducted my interview said as a result of seeing me in uniform, I was the caliber individual they were looking for that looked sharp, had attention to detail, and obviously met height/weight standards.


Wear it.

[C-150]

The wearing of the uniform shows discipline and professionalism. The officer's sitting on the board would be able to visualize this young man in future setting. In other words they could see first hand the fact that he has pride in his self, his county and the USAF/CAP. Wear in properly and proudly. It amazes me how someone asking a simple question on here turns into a major debate. Makes me wonder.

[raivo]

OK, I'm going to say something that may be unpopular, but that you may wish to consider.

There are some Air Force personnel out there who do not have a particularly high opinion of CAP. Their reasons may not be valid, but the fact is still there. A popular sentiment among that crowd is that CAP is a bunch of wanna-bes who want to wear a uniform, look cool and pretend they're in the military, but who can't hack it in the real military. And for that reason alone, I would be hesitant to wear the Air Force uniform to such an interview. (FWIW, I wore a suit and tie when I interviewed to go to OTS.)

There aren't *my* views obviously - if I were the interviewer, I personally would probably take a neutral view of it. But I do think that it has both the potential to be negative, and the potential to be positive, depending on the interviewer, and that the safest thing to do is stay in civvies. (Hey, Firefox doesn't flag "civvies" as a misspelled word!")

[Krapenhoeffer]

If I'm not mistaken, 39-1 allows for wear of the uniform while visiting military installations.

If you can look good, and act good in uniform, I say go for it (with you're CC's permission, of course).

[C-150]

I am not  certain where this thought of the USAF having a negative view of CAP comes from. Perhaps a few young enlisted types have made the the "wannabe" comments, but they have not been around long enough to what CAP is. I have never had contact with a Sr. Enlisted AF member of an Officer that had view. Most either already know about CAP as many AF Officers were and are members. Some don't know because that is not covered in their training, but once informed they have no negative opinion. Maybe this wannabe thinking comes from members with a low self esteem or something. I am not sure. It may be that few members have done or said something in the hearing and sight range of AF people and they hold view from that.....but the thinking that the USAF stance toward CAP is negative is nonsense.

[desertengineer1]

Question - has this member been in the first two years of AFROTC, or are they walking off the street for the last two years only?  If the member has been in the first two years, they need to wear ROTC AF Service Dress (my opinion).

For the "off the street case"

If, as a unit commander, one of my cadets came and asked if he/she could wear service dress to an ROTC interview...  Absolutely - if I felt this member would represent us well.  That's part of the commadner's job - mentorship.

That's why the unit CC has that authority.  No wing commander I know would say otherwise - again, if the member would represent us well.

It would be the member's choice, IMHO, if they have been a good member.  They earned it.

As an AF officer, I'm confused with the comment regarding CAP's reputation.  In my 21 year career, I have heard no such comments.  Sure, there's always some fear that a board will see this as an arrogant thing, but remember that it's all how the individual acts in that uniform.

Someone will ask "Why did you choose to wear your CAP service dress?" 

If I were in that chair, the correct answer is "I am proud of my service, feel I have done well, and feel it has high relevance to what I want to do as a future Air Force leader."

If a board member cannot recognize the pride and the "above and beyond" factor, in addition to the other merits of the applicant as a "whole person" factor, it wouldn't make a difference anyway. 

If this member represents themselves well, they will be remembered as such.

I am very disappointed in some posts I am seeing here.  If you can't grasp the mentorship and leadership factor in something as simple as this, I think you need to take a break and come back when you are ready.  I wouldn't let you near any of my cadets if you were in my unit or a fellow squadron in my wing..

Wear it with pride.  Wear it well.  If he/she can represent us well, I am proud.

[raivo]

I wouldn't say it's commonplace, but I have seen it. DE1, if you think it's not an issue, then I'll take your (more experienced) word for it.

[desertengineer1]

I wouldn't say it's commonplace, but I have seen it. DE1, if you think it's not an issue, then I'll take your (more experienced) word for it.

You did good.  I'm just not really happy about some of the more "mean" posts here.

Lots of variables like representation quality, guidance, and the like.

Good Cadet, sharp performer, good interviewer = go for it.

But if there's an expectation to wear the AF Service Dress as a second year cadet, he should have gotten better advice from his peers and staff officers - just my IHMO.  Good luck!

[RiverAux]

If you can't grasp the mentorship and leadership factor in something as simple as this

It has nothing at all to do with that but CAP regulations which allow very limited leeway for wear of CAP uniforms outside of CAP events. 

[desertengineer1]

If you can't grasp the mentorship and leadership factor in something as simple as this

It has nothing at all to do with that but CAP regulations which allow very limited leeway for wear of CAP uniforms outside of CAP events.

So, under the same rules would you argue Col. Boyd wearing the uniform at the presidential inauguration was in violation of policy?

Are you kidding me?

[desertengineer1]

If you can't grasp the mentorship and leadership factor in something as simple as this

It has nothing at all to do with that but CAP regulations which allow very limited leeway for wear of CAP uniforms outside of CAP events.

So, under the same rules would you argue Col. Boyd wearing the uniform at the presidential inauguration was in violation of policy?

Are you kidding me?

OMG you actually did.

I got nothin.....

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=7057.40

[desertengineer1]

Wear of the CAP uniform is not a matter of personal choice, it is a matter subject to CAP regulation.  This is not a CAP activity and the wear of the uniform would violate CAP regulations.

I find it interesting you argue this here, but on the thread with Col. Boyd you say:

"The question is whether or not this was an official CAP activity -- that is what controls whether the CAP uniform can be worn.  If he was invited to the inauguration as a private individual and then decided on his own to wear the CAP uniform, it would violate CAP regulations.  If he got permission from the appropriate commander to wear his uniform for the public relations value, that would be fine. "

You, sir, are officially Troll Busted.

[RiverAux]

Huh?  Same position -- if it is a CAP activity you are supposed to wear the uniform, if it is not a CAP activity it depends on exactly why you are going and whether or not you have permission from your commander to wear the uniform.  As I said in that other thread, if Col. Boyd was invited specifically to represent CAP at the inauguration it is totally appropriate to wear the uniform.  If he was going as an individual he could not decide on his own to wear the uniform, but might if the appropriate command level approved it. 

In this case, it is definetely not a CAP activity so the cadet cannot decide on their own to wear the uniform.  However, if the cadet got permission from his squadron commander, he would be ok as far as the regulations go.  Now, the squadron commander could potentially get in trouble for granting such permission if someone made an issue of it (unlikely in this case).

This falls in the area of commander's discretion.  Some folks are going to be a lot stricter about giving such permission than others. 

[desertengineer1]

You originally argued for commander's approval, but didn't acknowledge almost all posters noting such here, and just judged this as being "not authorized".  You just want to cause trouble.

Troll Bust...

[RiverAux]

Hmm, I said several times in this thread that this wasn't a CAP activity and I also said this:

If there is any gray area about it, get your commander involved and let him/her make the call. 

Really not sure how arguing in favor of following regulations or asking your commander for specific approval if something is in a gray area is causing trouble. 

[JoeTomasone]

I get the impression that some folks here do not (want to) read the regs.


There is no way that a college/AFROTC interview can be construed as a CAP activity.

For it to be a CAP Activity, it would have to be overseen/run by someone in CAP like any other activity.   For it to be a CAP activity involving a Cadet, an approved Senior Member with CPPT would have to be present (and that SM would have to be in uniform).    If the Cadet were injured during the interview or travelling to or from it, would the Cadet be covered by CAP insurance?  If not, it's not a CAP activity. 

AFROTC is NOT a Cadet Program.   If you think it is, re-read CAPR 52-16.   Such programs are "complementary and mutually supporting". 


You can wear the CAP Uniform when:

1. Participating in or conducting the Cadet Program. 

2. Flying in CAP aircraft.

3. Engaged in normal CAP duties or attending CAP functions

4. Visiting military installations

5. Attending social activities or dinners on military installations

...And that's it.


Oh, and the Unit Commander's feelings on the matter are irrelevant.   If it's not on the list above, wear of the uniform is not authorized.  Period.

If you still think it is permissible under regulations to wear the CAP uniform to the interview, (here's the favorite CAPTALK phrase) cite, please.

[cdk77]

You can wear the CAP Uniform when:

1. Participating in or conducting the Cadet Program. 

2. Flying in CAP aircraft.

3. Engaged in normal CAP duties or attending CAP functions

4. Visiting military installations

5. Attending social activities or dinners on military installations

...And that's it.

Oh, and the Unit Commander's feelings on the matter are irrelevant.   If it's not on the list above, wear of the uniform is not authorized.  Period.

Does the AFROTC detachment's office where the interview is held qualify as a military installation?

[RiverAux]

Interesting question.

Joe brings up an interesting point regarding senior member supervision. 

[raivo]

Does the AFROTC detachment's office where the interview is held qualify as a military installation?

Doubt it.

[kd8gua]

I get the impression that some folks here do not (want to) read the regs.


There is no way that a college/AFROTC interview can be construed as a CAP activity.

For it to be a CAP Activity, it would have to be overseen/run by someone in CAP like any other activity.   For it to be a CAP activity involving a Cadet, an approved Senior Member with CPPT would have to be present (and that SM would have to be in uniform).    If the Cadet were injured during the interview or travelling to or from it, would the Cadet be covered by CAP insurance?  If not, it's not a CAP activity. 

AFROTC is NOT a Cadet Program.   If you think it is, re-read CAPR 52-16.   Such programs are "complementary and mutually supporting". 


You can wear the CAP Uniform when:

1. Participating in or conducting the Cadet Program. 

2. Flying in CAP aircraft.

3. Engaged in normal CAP duties or attending CAP functions

4. Visiting military installations

5. Attending social activities or dinners on military installations

...And that's it.


Oh, and the Unit Commander's feelings on the matter are irrelevant.   If it's not on the list above, wear of the uniform is not authorized.  Period.

If you still think it is permissible under regulations to wear the CAP uniform to the interview, (here's the favorite CAPTALK phrase) cite, please.

Then I guess Col. Byrd should have the Uniform Inquisition sent after him for wearing his CAP uniform at the Inauguration Parade, since it doesn't fall under any of those guidelines.

[JayT]

 

I get the impression that some folks here do not (want to) read the regs.


There is no way that a college/AFROTC interview can be construed as a CAP activity.

For it to be a CAP Activity, it would have to be overseen/run by someone in CAP like any other activity.   For it to be a CAP activity involving a Cadet, an approved Senior Member with CPPT would have to be present (and that SM would have to be in uniform).    If the Cadet were injured during the interview or travelling to or from it, would the Cadet be covered by CAP insurance?  If not, it's not a CAP activity. 

AFROTC is NOT a Cadet Program.   If you think it is, re-read CAPR 52-16.   Such programs are "complementary and mutually supporting". 


You can wear the CAP Uniform when:

1. Participating in or conducting the Cadet Program. 

2. Flying in CAP aircraft.

3. Engaged in normal CAP duties or attending CAP functions

4. Visiting military installations

5. Attending social activities or dinners on military installations

...And that's it.


Oh, and the Unit Commander's feelings on the matter are irrelevant.   If it's not on the list above, wear of the uniform is not authorized.  Period.

If you still think it is permissible under regulations to wear the CAP uniform to the interview, (here's the favorite CAPTALK phrase) cite, please.

Then I guess Col. Byrd should have the Uniform Inquisition sent after him for wearing his CAP uniform at the Inauguration Parade, since it doesn't fall under any of those guidelines.

Apples to Oranges. There's a big difference between a field grade officer wearing his dress uniform to a high level function and a cadet wearing his uniform to impress an ROTC officer.

One of the things that CAP taught me was that the uniform wasn't always the best thing to wear. The cadet in question would make a great impression if he could show the lessons he learned from uniform wear (sharp, pressed shirt and pants, clean jacket, well tied tie), rather than trying to show off with a chest full of bling and some stripes or pips.

I have known some ROTC/JROTC type officer/NCO's who didn't hold a high opinion of CAP cadets just because of stuff like this. Again, it's much more important to be able to show what you've learned from CAP, rather than just that you're a member.

[Hawk200]

...it's much more important to be able to show what you've learned from CAP, rather than just that you're a member.

Mind if I borrow that?

And of course:  :clap: :clap: :clap:

[afgeo4]

I wonder what the ROTC and CAP-USAF personnel would say all of this. In the end, the folks at Air University are the ones who govern out uniforms and their wear authorizations.

[sarmed1]

A few thoughts:

Technically CAP governs its own uniforms...the AF authorizes  use of AF specific uniform items....for the most part.

As and AF guy.... very rearely have I ever run into anyone else in the AF that has a bad thing to say about CAP members...but especially not cadets. (maybe choice words about senior members, but not cadets)

If I was sitting on a ROTC/Military type board and you show up in CAP uniform it better be 100% squared away...otherwise I would be thinking of taking away points for looking like a schmuck.

mk

[Flying Pig]

I would go with a suit and tie and a tactful CAP related lapel pin.  I have been in law enforcement hiring boards and I always wear my 1 Battalion 6th Marines lapel pin.  Everytime I have been asked what it is and it has always prompted some fun war story telling for a few minutes to break the ice.

And I dont mean your entire ribbon rack worn as a lapel pin though either......

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

If there is any gray area about it, get your commander involved and let him/her make the call. 

A good idea under any circumstances.

I believe it would be appropriate if the cadet is going to be a member of AFROTC.  A former squadron of mine worked closely with a local college ROTC unit and we always wore uniforms when dealing with them.

Their commander (an AF Captain) would probably ask the cadet "why aren't you in uniform?"  He would be interested in seeing the cadet's military bearing.  But that's just one officer.

But take the commander's advice, not mine.

[Earhart1971]

Took my unit to a AFROTC presentation. At the Presentation, the  AFROTC, Air Force Officer, said to wear a Uniform if you are in a Cadet Program or if you attend a Military Academy, to the AFROTC Selection Board. They are looking for people that have experience, they give higher ratings, to those that know how to wear a uniform, and who have Cadet Program Experience. They like CAP Cadets and want more to join AFROTC!

He specifcally stated, "Wear your Uniform"

Cheers!

[Hawk200]

Took my unit to a AFROTC presentation. At the Presentation, the  AFROTC, Air Force Officer, said to wear a Uniform if you are in a Cadet Program or if you attend a Military Academy, to the AFROTC Selection Board. They are looking for people that have experience, they give higher ratings, to those that know how to wear a uniform, and who have Cadet Program Experience. They like CAP Cadets and want more to join AFROTC!

He specifcally stated, "Wear your Uniform"

Cheers!

That may be the practice for the location that you visited, but is it an established policy for AFROTC? If it's not spelled out in a publication somewhere, it's only the preference for one location.

[Earhart1971]

I have been in the Air Force, I have spent many hours with AFROTC both Junior and Senior. I have known all the past Commanders of the subject Unit.  They want Cadets to come in UNIFORM.  I have sent Cadets to AFROTC and 3 to the Academy.  All of them went to the selection boards in UNIFORM.  All of them got to where they wanted to go. CAP Cadets have an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE and I want to make sure that is always the case.

[JoeTomasone]

Were those AFROTC Unit Commanders aware that doing so would be in violation of CAP Regulations?   If they were, I doubt they'd make the request.

[Hawk200]

I have been in the Air Force, I have spent many hours with AFROTC both Junior and Senior. I have known all the past Commanders of the subject Unit.  They want Cadets to come in UNIFORM.  I have sent Cadets to AFROTC and 3 to the Academy.  All of them went to the selection boards in UNIFORM.  All of them got to where they wanted to go. CAP Cadets have an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE and I want to make sure that is always the case.

I assume you have a point, although I don't really care what it is. That aside, you've only indicated that one location prefers it. That's not a policy.

The question was: Is that an established policy for AFROTC? It's a yes or no question. If it is, many here would like to see the reference, myself included.

[Spike]

I have a cadet who is going to an interview for an AFROTC scholarship. Would wearing of the blue service uniform be appropriate?

YES.  After reading posts here I agree.....get your Commanders approval, but I see no detrimental harm to CAP should a Cadet wear the uniform to an Air Force interview.

[RiverAux]

There are a lot of things that CAP members can do that wouldn't be detrimental to CAP that might still go against CAP regulations. 

[JoeTomasone]

There are a lot of things that CAP members can do that wouldn't be detrimental to CAP that might still go against CAP regulations.

Like:


1.  Wearing it to school, work, or while shopping - great recruiting tool!

2.  Wearing it on a job interview - shows dedication and purpose to a potential employer, and the bling can't hurt!

3.  Wearing it to a costume party - it's the best costume ever, you already own it!   And hey, people dress up as policemen and firemen, right?


Harmless, perhaps; but 39-1 says that it can't be worn then, and also says "COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY".   


It doesn't matter if it "won't harm" CAP or if your Commander (wrongly) approves it.   An AFROTC interview is NOT a permitted occasion to wear the CAP uniform regardless of what AFROTC might think or how well it might improve your chances. 

Honestly, if you can't follow this regulation (or simply choose to ignore it), why would anyone expect you to obey other regulations?   If I were the AFROTC interviewer and knew that you were wearing it against regs, you would have just shot yourself in the foot.

[RiverAux]

If you'll notice prior posts I have been one of the ones saying that it shouldn't be worn because I don't believe it is an  CAP activity.  I did not say that because it wasn't detrimental that the regulation can be ignored.

[JoeTomasone]

If you'll notice prior posts I have been one of the ones saying that it shouldn't be worn because I don't believe it is an  CAP activity.  I did not say that because it wasn't detrimental that the regulation can be ignored.

Sorry, RiverAux, I was adding to your post, not implying you specifically.  The "you" was generic.   I guess I should have made it more obvious. 

[Earhart1971]

There are a lot of things that CAP members can do that wouldn't be detrimental to CAP that might still go against CAP regulations.

Its not necessary but a SQUADRON COMMANDER can decide, that a Cadet can wear the uniform, you guys can split hairs on regs.

[Earhart1971]

I have been in the Air Force, I have spent many hours with AFROTC both Junior and Senior. I have known all the past Commanders of the subject Unit.  They want Cadets to come in UNIFORM.  I have sent Cadets to AFROTC and 3 to the Academy.  All of them went to the selection boards in UNIFORM.  All of them got to where they wanted to go. CAP Cadets have an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE and I want to make sure that is always the case.

I assume you have a point, although I don't really care what it is. That aside, you've only indicated that one location prefers it. That's not a policy.

The question was: Is that an established policy for AFROTC? It's a yes or no question. If it is, many here would like to see the reference, myself included.

Typical CAP TALK NET SPLIT HAIRS!

[FW]

When I was a cadet, back in the stone age, I was asked to wear my uniform to school when being interviewed for an AFROTC scholarship.  I think, for something like this, uniform wear is appropriate; especially if CAP is part of the reason you got there.  And yes, you better look "squared away".

[Earhart1971]

We sat through a AFROTC Presentation with my Cadets in UNIFORM! AFROTC is not just an enroll and take the course kind of thing now, its getting more like the up or out. The funnel gets narrower, they cut people out of the program that cannot perform. It's now becoming more  difficult to get an AFROTC Scholarship or even take the course. I assume the economy and job outlook has a lot to do with it.

At the two year point, there are 40 slots for their 4 Week Summer Training, they might have 60 AFROTC 2 Year Cadets applying. Only the best make the cut.

Those that do not make the cut, have to spend an entire year extra in College in hopes of going to the next Summer Training.

Yes, if I have CAP Cadets, that have been in MY CAP PROGRAM, I want them in UNIFORM, whenever they present themselves to the AIR FORCE either Academy Selection Board or AFROTC. Yes, I want my 4 year Cadet in CAP selected over a student off the street that comes in and suddenly has decided he might want to be an Air Force Officer.

The Air Force is looking for pushy type A Cadets. 

[JoeTomasone]

There are a lot of things that CAP members can do that wouldn't be detrimental to CAP that might still go against CAP regulations.

Its not necessary but a SQUADRON COMMANDER can decide, that a Cadet can wear the uniform, you guys can split hairs on regs.

OK, I'll bite. (sigh)


Please cite the non-hair-split regulation that states that a Commander can authorize uniform wear at a non-CAP activity.

[JoeTomasone]

When I was a cadet, back in the stone age, I was asked to wear my uniform to school when being interviewed for an AFROTC scholarship.  I think, for something like this, uniform wear is appropriate; especially if CAP is part of the reason you got there.  And yes, you better look "squared away".

Appropriate: Yes.

Helpful; increases your chances: Yes

Against regulations: Yes


The regulations don't have a clause that permits us to violate them when we deem it "appropriate" to do so.     'Cause if that's the case, then maybe I should decide that it's "appropriate" to wear my uniform on this base here in Iraq.    At least I could make the craptastic argument that I am "visiting a military facility" IAW 39-1.   Or maybe it's "appropriate' for me to head to a crash site by myself, because I'm a trained GT member and I should impress my commander with my GT knowledge.    Obviously, once we decide to violate one reg, it gets easier to find it "appropriate" to do so whenever the mood strikes.

To knowingly violate a regulation yourself is to display a lack of integrity.    To encourage someone else to do it is inexcusable.

[Major Carrales]

There are a lot of things that CAP members can do that wouldn't be detrimental to CAP that might still go against CAP regulations.

Its not necessary but a SQUADRON COMMANDER can decide, that a Cadet can wear the uniform, you guys can split hairs on regs.

OK, I'll bite. (sigh)


Please cite the non-hair-split regulation that states that a Commander can authorize uniform wear at a non-CAP activity.

Please cite the regs where it says a CAP officer or cadet can use their eyes to see, legs to walk and car to drive?  My point is that some people can take the "exclusivity" of the regs too far.

[Hawk200]

I have been in the Air Force, I have spent many hours with AFROTC both Junior and Senior. I have known all the past Commanders of the subject Unit.  They want Cadets to come in UNIFORM.  I have sent Cadets to AFROTC and 3 to the Academy.  All of them went to the selection boards in UNIFORM.  All of them got to where they wanted to go. CAP Cadets have an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE and I want to make sure that is always the case.

I assume you have a point, although I don't really care what it is. That aside, you've only indicated that one location prefers it. That's not a policy.

The question was: Is that an established policy for AFROTC? It's a yes or no question. If it is, many here would like to see the reference, myself included.

Typical CAP TALK NET SPLIT HAIRS!

And typical response showing a complete lack of ethics. Not answering a straightforward question is the first indicator that you know full well it's wrong.

This is the perfect example of why our organization has problems. Too many people in it have the idea of "Rules apply to everyone but me!".

Call it hair splitting, but when a publication says what you can do, and you do something that it doesn't say you can, then you are wrong. Ethically, morally, and possibly legally. Denial does not alter the facts.

As Themann put up before, active membership and accomplishments are more important than showing off. The accomplishments on the resume speak for themselves. Appearance speaks for itself, regardless of what you are wearing. Someone wearing the wrinkled shirt, coat with lint on it, pants too tight or short, and dirty shoes has already shown their lack of dedication. If you're hanging your hopes on just the uniform getting you in, then you've got some identity issues.

[Hawk200]

Please cite the regs where it says a CAP officer or cadet can use their eyes to see, legs to walk and car to drive?  My point is that some people can take the "exclusivity" of the regs too far.

I can see the point, but that's a slippery slope. "Well, it's alright this time", can turn into things that are always "alright", when they're against regs. It gets to a point where pubs get ignored completely "just this once" all of the time. Where do we draw the line? The easiest place to draw the line is where the pub says so.

I can understand things "in the spirit" of the reg, but this is not a case of in the spirit. The manual says "CAP activities" not "any activity with any form of relation to the Air Force".

Do I think it would be a good idea to allow the wear to these type of functions? Sure. It doesn't mean I have the latitude to do so. The smart thing to do is to get it changed to allow it. If it's a good idea, then it should be added to the pub, and probably wouldn't be all that difficult to do.

It's difficult to tell someone in the future that we need to follow a publication when you already allowed an instance of violating them. What kind of example does it set? It's a bad example that shouldn't have been set in the first place.

[Earhart1971]

Rest of the posts are for HAIR SPLITTERS. The people that really want to run OFF A CLIFF reading or interpreting the REGS ;>.

[RiverAux]

Rest of the posts are for HAIR SPLITTERS. The people that really want to run OFF A CLIFF reading or interpreting the REGS ;>.

Regulations are all about hair splitting.  Same with the law.  Its usually best to both try to follow the intent as well as the letter of the law. 

[raivo]

We sat through a AFROTC Presentation with my Cadets in UNIFORM! AFROTC is not just an enroll and take the course kind of thing now, its getting more like the up or out. The funnel gets narrower, they cut people out of the program that cannot perform. It's now becoming more  difficult to get an AFROTC Scholarship or even take the course. I assume the economy and job outlook has a lot to do with it.

At the two year point, there are 40 slots for their 4 Week Summer Training, they might have 60 AFROTC 2 Year Cadets applying. Only the best make the cut.

Those that do not make the cut, have to spend an entire year extra in College in hopes of going to the next Summer Training.

Yes, if I have CAP Cadets, that have been in MY CAP PROGRAM, I want them in UNIFORM, whenever they present themselves to the AIR FORCE either Academy Selection Board or AFROTC. Yes, I want my 4 year Cadet in CAP selected over a student off the street that comes in and suddenly has decided he might want to be an Air Force Officer.

The Air Force is looking for pushy type A Cadets.

I've been in CAP for 10 years (8 at the time) and didn't wear my uniform to my OTS interview.

Didn't really need to, either - my CAP experience was right there on my applicant profile, and we ended up talking about it in the interview.

[Hawk200]

Rest of the posts are for HAIR SPLITTERS. The people that really want to run OFF A CLIFF reading or interpreting the REGS ;>.

Denial doesn't change facts. Calling others names does not change facts. If you don't want to be told you're doing wrong, there's an easy way to solve it. Do the right thing.

The manuals says "for CAP activities". AFROTC is not a CAP activity. Wearing a uniform there is a violation of our publications. It's not hair splitting, it's following properly put forth publication. Calling it otherwise is denying the truth.

[raivo]

To be fair, you're also breaking regs if you're not wearing your reflective belt on some AF bases during certain hours.

Just sayin'.

[Spike]

39-1
The Uniform shall not be worn

when participating in activities such as public speeches, interviews,
picket lines, marches, rallies, or in any public demonstration not
approved by the Air Force. Wearing the uniform may imply sanction
of the cause for which the demonstration or activity is conducted.

So....Air Force ROTC Interviews are sanctioned by the United States Air Force, thus the CAP uniform may be worn.
We all can pick apart regs in CAP to fit our specific needs.  It proves there is a major problem with CAP regulations.  NHQ is not military, and they have no idea how to write regulations in Air Force Style.  So, my suggestion....ask CAP-USAF for guidance in writing new regulations. 
None of these issues were around when the Air Force controlled CAP and wrote everything for them.  In fact, pull a copy of the uniform manuals from 1950-1985 and you will see a huge difference between then and today.  Then it was clear, concise and exact.  Today our regulations are not so.