Long hair in the Civil Air Patrol?

[Майор Хаткевич]

As long as we all follow the rules we agreed to follow when we became members, the rest should be a non-issue.

Long hair?  Fine, just don't wear uniforms that require short hair.  Long hair or facial hair don't send a negative message in and of themselves.  Violating the rules through willful behavior or ignorance definitely provides a bad example.

^^^ If C/Timmy wants to have a pony tail and a handle bar mustache, there is the BBDU and CSU.

[davidsinn]

As long as we all follow the rules we agreed to follow when we became members, the rest should be a non-issue.

Long hair?  Fine, just don't wear uniforms that require short hair.  Long hair or facial hair don't send a negative message in and of themselves.  Violating the rules through willful behavior or ignorance definitely provides a bad example.

^^^ If C/Timmy wants to have a pony tail and a handle bar mustache, there is the BBDU and CSU.

Not true. See CAP/CC Letter, Clarification of CAPM 39-1, Cadet Grooming Standards

Update: CAP/CC MEMO FOR CAP UNIT COMMANDERS 15 July 2008
SUBJECT: Clarification of CAPM 39-1, Cadet Grooming Standards

1. All cadet members must meet the grooming standards prescribed for AF-style uniforms in Attachment 2 of CAPM 39-1 whenever wearing a CAP Uniform, including CAP Distinctive Uniforms as well as USAF-style Uniforms. Exceptions may be made at the discretion of the National Commander as necessary to comply with the law. (See link above for additional details)

[Майор Хаткевич]

I stand corrected.

If 18 year old C/Timmy wants to have a pony tail and a handlebar mustache, then he can roll over to Flight Officer and wear the BBDU and CSU. Everyone else, barring religious reasons can GTFO of the program. 

[a2capt]

Interesting that the OP also has not been back since asking about aero club access due to CAP membership and membership vs. gainable flight time.

In other words..  there was an agenda. Probably trying to feel out if the long hair was much of an issue vs. what benefits are actually there and is it worth taking the snippers to it.

[AlphaSigOU]

I stand corrected.

If 18 year old C/Timmy wants to have a pony tail and a handlebar mustache, then he can roll over to Flight Officer and wear the BBDU and CSU. Everyone else, barring religious reasons can GTFO of the program. 

Pretty harsh, cadet. I would have been a little more diplomatic about it instead of resorting to a rather crude initialism in a public forum. I agree, though, that if one cannot - or will not - conform to regulations, then they should no longer be members.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Pretty harsh, cadet. I would have been a little more diplomatic about it instead of resorting to a rather crude initialism in a public forum. I agree, though, that if one cannot - or will not - conform to regulations, then they should no longer be members.

The smiley at the end with *rolling eyes* was supposed to show the sarcasm/disagreement I have with that point of view.

[SilverEagle2]

Not a point of view...it's a regulation. Big difference.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Not a point of view...it's a regulation. Big difference.

Regulation stemming from a world view of those who wrote it. Would I break a regulation for someone over their need to keep their hair? Never. But have I met people who had medical conditions, and long hair helped them mask some sort of medical condition? Yes

[lordmonar]

I can't stand there and tell a cadet his haircut is too long for standards if I'm not adhering to the same.

But you are adhearing to standards...they are just different.  Just like the uniform standard between Cadet Officers and Cadet Enlisted are different.

Are you implying that a cadet officer who is wearing his service cap can't correct a cadet enlisted on the proper wear of the flight cap?

Or a female member can't correct male members on hair?

If the member is IN STANDARDS then he is in standards.....if you got a problem with standards then you need to take it up with NHQ.

[Hawk200]

I think I realize a good part of the problem. My first few years in the military, I had the impression that long haired, unshaven folks were slackers, hippies, losers. A good part of that opinion was formed by the influence of my TI, and then reinforced by fellow military members. There was a time when "civilian" was almost a dirty word.

After a few years, I realized that my this opinion was wrong. Even more importantly, I realized that it was also unprofessional. Expecting non-military personnel to follow military standards is inappropriate. I no longer subscribe to such an opinion.

However, I do expect people to be groomed. That means wash, and comb, your hair; I don't care how long it is. It means take a shower (or a bath), preferably on a daily basis. It also means wear clean, dry, serviceable clothing with as few wrinkles as possible (some things get a few wrinkles from activity but for the most part it's not an issue to me).

Serviceable also applies to footwear. Showing up with dirty/muddy shoes or boots is not an example of attention to detail. Keep 'em clean.

There is a member locally who just doesn't pass muster on a lot of these thngs. Wears a combover, but doesn't comb the rest of his hair. Never seen him shaved, alhtough it looks when he does it's only once a week or so. Tends to wear ratty t-shirts or stained sweatshirts. Wears black socks with black athletic shoes (not really a standards problem, just a serious fashion faux pas). The coach gym shorts don't help. This is a person I have very little respect for, and fortunately don't have to really deal with. To top it off, this individual has stated that he thinks he should be running the cadet program.

I've seen him in a semblance of what could be considered a "uniform" once. A grey polo with his previous wing's patch on the chest, and something on the arm. He wore it with blue jeans (the one time I've seen him wear pants).

As far as "standards" go, he doesn't fill a single one of common personal grooming. Thankfully, I've never been close enough to smell him, I have a suspicion if I did I would probably find it offensive.

So, all in all, it's better to have someone long haired, neatly trimmed beard, and wearing clean clothing than someone unkempt like I've mentioned. Civil Air Patrol allows it, and no one has any authority, business or place to push their own ideas on someone in full compliance with CAP's criteria. The standards for the blues are pure military, but the standards for the others are not. Don't try to force people into a mold that they aren't required to fit.

[Major Carrales]

I am not of Long hair, however, I would prefer those CAP Officers that sport it if they would do so with a "pony tail."  Why, in my opinion, it looks better and more professional than free.  Also, I feel that to had it bound behind one's head might also facilitate a greater degree of safety and improve (via increased visibility) situational awareness.

This is, as I can safely say, a pretty good compromise between those that would say long hair should be verboten and those that wish to sport it.

[Hawk200]

I've kind of got to wonder if maybe there are some military hard core members teaching cadets that everyone in CAP should have military length hair and should be cleanshaven. Or teaching them that those not within the weight limits of blues shouldn't be a part of the organization.

This is just as bad as people that think we shouldn't have the blues and that CAP should be a wholly civilian organization without the "military" aspect.

[Eclipse]

^ Stop wondering, they are out there, and not nearly as quickly remediated as they should be, if ever.

There's a reason we have to keep hammering on things like CPPT, hazing, etc., and why PD is so important for the leadership, in some cases its the only time people are told they are doing something wrong.

[Major Rob]

I wear my hair about half-way between my shoulders and my waist. More importantly, I am fastidious about my grooming and uniforms. My hair is always clean and pulled back in a pony tail when I'm in uniform. The uniforms themselves - all of the "distinctive" variety - are clean, pressed, and all insignia are properly applied. In my blue BDU's, I sometimes wear the field cap, sometimes the CAP baseball cap (depending on what other Seniors are wearing; I believe it's important for uniforms to be consistent among members -- Even if they are "distinctive"). My shoes/boots are always shined to within an inch of their lives. In short, I make it a point to set a positive example regading uniform wear to all of the cadets in my squadron.

In my opinion, it's not whether one meets military standards or not. The most important thing is that people meet the CAP standard for the uniform they choose to wear. If the member shows pride in his appearance and projects an image that reflects well on himself and the CAP, then he is doing more to promote the organization than a member who marginally meets the military standard, but does so in such a way as to present a slack appearance while in uniform (e.g. sloppy dress, unpressed shirts/pants, dirty shoes/boots, unkempt hair, etc.).

Even in my own squadron, though, there is at least one member who believes that there is some sort of heirarchy of CAP uniforms. He actually believes (and refuses *not* to believe) that the AF uniform is superior to the CAP distinctives. He has told me directly that he would not salute a superior officer with long hair in CAP distinctives. He also thinks that members in distinctives should stand at the back during flight formations. Basically, he's a bigot who thinks that people who don't meet *his* standard should be looked down upon and treated as second-class members of CAP.

CAP is an inclusive organization. Members like the one I described above do more to hurt us than to help us. We need all the talent we can get and those talented people should be treated with respect. If they follow the rules and present an image that reflects well on the organization, then they should be welcomed with open arms and their contributions recognized. Jerks who think they're better than other people are the folks we don't need in CAP.

Any person who is willing to give of himself, his time, and his talent should be welcome here. Any opinion to the contrary - in *my* not so humble opinion - is misguided, a detriment to CAP, and reflects very poorly on its members.

Cadets aren't idiots -- They know that there are rules and that the rules aren't necessarily the same for everybody. And, if they don't know this, then it's up to us to teach them, as this is one of the most important lessons they will ever learn in their lives.

Oh, and when the overweight Senior Members are denied the option of wearing CAP uniforms until they lose weight, *then* I will see a legitimate argument against Senior Members being allowed to wear long and/or facial hair. Until then, though, there is no justificaiton for making an exception in one case, but not the other.

Again, just my opinion, but one that I feel very strongly about.

PS: Yes, I know the captain's bars in my sig photo are aligned along the wrong edge of the collar. This has since been fixed!

[davidsinn]

Even in my own squadron, though, there is at least one member who believes that there is some sort of heirarchy of CAP uniforms. He actually believes (and refuses *not* to believe) that the AF uniform is superior to the CAP distinctives. He has told me directly that he would not salute a superior officer with long hair in CAP distinctives. He also thinks that members in distinctives should stand at the back during flight formations. Basically, he's a bigot who thinks that people who don't meet *his* standard should be looked down upon and treated as second-class members of CAP.

I'd love to meat that knot head. My commander and I both wear Corporate uniforms. He would be set straight in a real quick hurry or be transferred to 000 if he were in our unit.

[MSgt Van]

He actually believes (and refuses *not* to believe) that the AF uniform is superior to the CAP distinctives. He has told me directly that he would not salute a superior officer with long hair in CAP distinctives. He also thinks that members in distinctives should stand at the back during flight formations. Basically, he's a bigot who thinks that people who don't meet *his* standard should be looked down upon and treated as second-class members of CAP.

How's this allowed? Send him my way for a little chat on CAP customs and courtesies. It'll be a one-way discussion for sure. 

[MIKE]

Prior to April 09 with the new CAPP 151, things could be a little different however.

[MSgt Van]

Good point about CAPP 151. I still think this guy's attitude is incorrect.

[Major Rob]

I assume this is the relevent paragraph in CAP 151:

Senior Members. For senior members, the rendering of customs and courtesies is expected when wearing a military-style uniform (all uniform combinations except the polo shirt and blazer). Regardless, CAP encourages all members to take part in something larger than themselves by participating in these rich traditions.

This seems to indicate that only in the case of the polo shirt and blazer combinations are customs and courtesies somehow optional. However, it does not say that members wearing these uniforms are somehow deserving of less respect than those in the other CAP uniforms, distinctive or not. Nor does it say that members in the polo shirt or blazer should be marginalized or segregated from the rest of the squadron based on their uniform choices.

In fact, the above paragraph invites *all* members to participate in military C&C, regardless of the uniform they are wearing. This strongly implies that other members should respond in kind.

The following paragraph seems to make clear the idea that all members are co-equal, regardless of the uniform they wear. Of course, there are distinctions based on rank, but rank carries with it greater responsibility regarding respect, courtesy, and setting the best example:

Because all people should be respectful, the Core Value of Respect is a two-way street. Even our National Commander treats the most junior cadet as he or she would like to be treated. A person's rank does not give them license to be rude, over-bearing, or boastful. Likewise, when a junior renders military courtesies to a senior, it is done as a sign of respect for the officer's position. Military customs and courtesies are never marks of inferiority because they do not aim to humiliate. Rather, Air Force-style customs and courtesies make CAP service special and patriotic.

Most importantly, these guidelines and CAP regs recognize the CAP distinctive uniforms (i.e. the blue BDU's, White Aviator Shirt, and corporate uniforms) to be "military-style uniforms" that are viewed exactly the same as the AF uniforms within CAP. So, to treat these uniforms any differently than the AF-style uniforms is just plain wrong.

However, it seems to me that the member to whom I referred is most guilty of violating this tenet, quoted above:

A person's rank does not give them license to be rude, over-bearing, or boastful.

Like I said, the guy's a jerk. I've had to report him *twice* to the squadron commander for inappropriate comments. Personally, I'd rather have a squadron full of fat, long-haired, bearded team players than someone like him, who creates descension among squadron members.

Once again, just my opinion. But, I continue to feel strongly about this.

[Hawk200]

I wear my hair about half-way between my shoulders and my waist. More importantly, I am fastidious about my grooming and uniforms. ....{Redacted for length}...My shoes/boots are always shined to within an inch of their lives. In short, I make it a point to set a positive example regading uniform wear to all of the cadets in my squadron.

Even though you may have longer hair, this kind of attitude still presents a true military professionalism to me, and probably to a few others here. Don't know if you've been military or not, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if you had.

....If the member shows pride in his appearance and projects an image that reflects well on himself and the CAP, then he is doing more to promote the organization than a member who marginally meets the military standard, but does so in such a way as to present a slack appearance while in uniform (e.g. sloppy dress, unpressed shirts/pants, dirty shoes/boots, unkempt hair, etc.).

Agreed. Personally, I don't care what uniform someone wears, but if they're sloppy, I don't consider them reliable.

Even in my own squadron, though, there is at least one member who believes that there is some sort of heirarchy of CAP uniforms. He actually believes (and refuses *not* to believe) that the AF uniform is superior to the CAP distinctives. He has told me directly that he would not salute a superior officer with long hair in CAP distinctives. He also thinks that members in distinctives should stand at the back during flight formations. Basically, he's a bigot who thinks that people who don't meet *his* standard should be looked down upon and treated as second-class members of CAP.

Let me guess: current or former military? Not all have the same mindset, but there are the foolishly stubborn ones. They're the types where you think that maybe, just maybe, a wall to wall counseling would actually be appropriate.

CAP is an inclusive organization. Members like the one I described above do more to hurt us than to help us...Jerks who think they're better than other people are the folks we don't need in CAP.

Agreed. Keep the contributors, dump the losers.

Any person who is willing to give of himself, his time, and his talent should be welcome here. Any opinion to the contrary - in *my* not so humble opinion - is misguided, a detriment to CAP, and reflects very poorly on its members.

As long as they're willing to be part of the team, and do what the rules require, I'll agree. There are some that will "give of themselves" as long as you don't have any problem with them doing it their way, rules and regulations be [darn]ed.

Cadets aren't idiots -- They know that there are rules and that the rules aren't necessarily the same for everybody. And, if they don't know this, then it's up to us to teach them, as this is one of the most important lessons they will ever learn in their lives.

I'll add that don't teach only one set of rules when there are more than one set. It's the same thing as putting forth only half the truth. And only half the truth is still a lie when there is more more to be told and you know it.