Long hair in the Civil Air Patrol?

[Mustang]

He shouldn't be in a unit with cadets unless he can set the proper example.  It does no good to set standards for cadets for grooming and then have their leaders have another.  The old saying "a double standard is better than no standards at all" doesn't work.  Sorry, it's one thing to have long hair for SMs but telling cadets that good grooming is important and showing a different example?  They'll see that what we preach as being important is baloney.  Can't have it both ways.

But wouldn't this also be the case regarding weight? 

[Ned]

He shouldn't be in a unit with cadets unless he can set the proper example.  It does no good to set standards for cadets for grooming and then have their leaders have another.  The old saying "a double standard is better than no standards at all" doesn't work.  Sorry, it's one thing to have long hair for SMs but telling cadets that good grooming is important and showing a different example?  They'll see that what we preach as being important is baloney.  Can't have it both ways.

But wouldn't this also be the case regarding weight?

And physical fitness?

And abstention from tobacco and alcohol?

And passing AE tests?

And not being married?

And maintaining a "satisfactory academic record in school"?


Boy, being a senior member at a cadet or composite unit is going to be a lot tougher than I thought it was>

[Short Field]

He shouldn't be in a unit with cadets unless he can set the proper example.

So everyone who does not meet the standards for wear of the Air Force Style uniform needs to be transferred out of the Cadet and Composite Squadrons and into Senior Squadrons?

[Gunner C]

Get the low-hanging fruit.  If a person has long hair in a cadet squadron, ask them to get into the standard.  When you have a meeting, require everyone to have on the same uniform (if not the same general type).  If it is blues night, the SMs should be in blues, also - that would include CSU.  You get the idea. Yes, SMs should participate in fitness stuff, unless they're medically DQ'd.

[Ned]

Get the low-hanging fruit.  If a person has long hair in a cadet squadron, ask them to get into the standard. 

I guess the point of this thread is that the long-haired officer is in standard.

I get that fact that you think the standards should be different, but the point remains that our regulations are our regulations whether we like them or not.

Yes, SMs should participate in fitness stuff, unless they're medically DQ'd.

I'm with you on that.  Seniors should always set the best example they can for our cadets, but it is just silly to insist that they meet the same standards as the cadets. 

When I was doing my Army IET, our drill sergeants ran with us, but we never expected the supply sergeant or the unit armorer to be out doing exactly what we were doing.  I'm sure they met the Army standards, but they were not trainees.  They had a job to do, and they did it.

[Hawk200]

I guess the point of this thread is that the long-haired officer is in standard.

I get that fact that you think the standards should be different, but the point remains that our regulations are our regulations whether we like them or not.

I see it in an opposite manner. There is no "standard" for the blazer, so applying one is wrong. If you have a beard, long hair, or exceed the weight limits for the blues, then you wear a uniform that does not have those "standards".

I wouldn't call hygeine/grooming (as in combing your hair, or washing your face, etc) a "standard", just a professional expectation of any one of our members. It's quite appropriate for people to attend to personal hygiene. But, beards, long hair, or a certain weight are not connected to that, and should not be in any manner. I think that's the problem with a lot of people here, they feel that those things equate when they don't.

[Ned]

I see it in an opposite manner. There is no "standard" for the blazer, so applying one is wrong. If you have a beard, long hair, or exceed the weight limits for the blues, then you wear a uniform that does not have those "standards".

And I thought I was the recovering lawyer here.  This is just semantics at this point.  But hey, that's what lawyers do, so let's discuss it.

My dictionary says a "standard" means "a criterion" or "a reference point against which other things can be evaluaterd."

In this arena, the 39-1 pretty clearly sets the standards by affirmatively describing grooming standards for hair.  See Table 1-2, which sets overall hair standards for both USAF and non USAF style uniforms.

It even sets length and other standards for hair in non-USAF style uniforms (". . .will not touch eyebrows when groomed or protrude below front band of properly worn headgear. . .")

I wouldn't call hygeine/grooming (as in combing your hair, or washing your face, etc) a "standard", just a professional expectation of any one of our members.

You might not call such things a "standard," but the 39-1 does. 

All members of CAP must be well groomed . . .

It sets standards for hair syles, cosmetics, and even fingernail length.  Heck, even watch fobs, hankerchiefs, and earrings are specifically regulated.

Maybe it shouldn't have to for the very reasons you described.

But it does.



So, I'm thinking we have specific hair standards for all of our uniforms, and the hair described by the OP meets the specific standards prescribed by the 39-1 for some of our corporate uniforms.

but like I said, maybe this is just semantics at this point.

Ned Lee

[Johnny Yuma]

I had a member give me grief about my hair being over the ears while in the Polo shirt. Later I found out he wears woman's underwear underneath his cloths?? I guess we just have to deal with all types of characters in the grand poo-pa.

Hey! we agreed that would be our little secret, remember?

It was just the one time, when I lost that bet...

[drlmd1965]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned the CAP core value of 'Respect'.  The OP's choice to wear his hair long is a personal choice, and merits respect from other members, the same as any other lawful personal choice.  I wouldn't be true to the core values I expect my cadets to follow if I looked down upon another member simply because I didn't like his hairstyle.

I also remember from my service in the USAF that no commander is authorized to make her/his own regulation stricter than the applicable USAF regulation, unless authority is specifically delegated to him by the regulation or higher authority.   Such authorization isn't included in CAPR 39-1.

To make a long story short:  either a member meets the regulation, or they don't.  If they meet the regulation, they should not be looked down upon by any other member, nor should they be considered as presenting an 'unprofessional image'.  The regulation exists to define what is considered a professional image in the CAP community.

As far as there being a 'double standard' between cadets and seniors:  yes, it exists.  Seniors are required to meet the same standards as cadets for wear of USAF-style uniforms.  Standards are looser for the corporate uniforms.  There are good reasons for this, not the least of which is that we'd lose a good portion of our membership (including myself and my wife) if all of us had to meet USAF height/weight standards.  We'd lose a great deal of experience and expertise, and our ability to accomplish our missions - including the cadet program - would be severely impacted.

For the record, my unit's emergency services officer wears his hair long in a pony tail.  He's always well groomed, and he's one of the most dedicated seniors in our unit.  While I personally don't much care for long hair on men, that's a personal opinion of mine.  I'd never *dream* of mentioning it to him.  Without him, we wouldn't have a ground team, and we'd probably lose half of our cadets.

___________
Maj Dan Lance
DC for Cadets, KY-131
Bardstown Composite Squadron

[Майор Хаткевич]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned the CAP core value of 'Respect'. 

Sadly, for the most part it seems something taught to cadets and not retained by seniors, at least directly.

[Gunner C]

I'd never *dream* of mentioning it to him.  Without him, we wouldn't have a ground team, and we'd probably lose half of our cadets.

Hair too long to fail?  This is a problem with CAP - if you're doing a bunch of work and you're considered "irreplaceable", then you can do pretty much whatever you want.

[Short Field]

I'd never *dream* of mentioning it to him.  Without him, we wouldn't have a ground team, and we'd probably lose half of our cadets.

Hair too long to fail?  This is a problem with CAP - if you're doing a bunch of work and you're considered "irreplaceable", then you can do pretty much whatever you want.

Too long to fail - or just within CAP regulations?

[Gunner C]

Just too long to set an example to impressionable cadets.

[jimmydeanno]

Here we go again...

What exactly is the contention with seniors meeting CAPs standards and working with cadets? 
How does having long hair have a negative affect on them?

[Gunner C]

Here we go again...

What exactly is the contention with seniors meeting CAPs standards and working with cadets? 
How does having long hair have a negative affect on them?

I can't stand there and tell a cadet his haircut is too long for standards if I'm not adhering to the same.  I've made a spot correction on a cadet who looked out of the corner of his eye at a SM whose hair was at the bottom of his ear.  You could see the recognition on the cadet's face that CAP's standards aren't serious.  IOW, "If I need to do this, why doesn't Capt Nosnhoj?

That cadet saw that what we're saying is "A double standard is better than no standards at all."  If we're going to let our "freak flags fly", then we'd best do it in senior squadrons only, away from the questioning eyes of those heads full of mush into whom we're trying to inculcate values.

[Hawk200]

I can't stand there and tell a cadet his haircut is too long for standards if I'm not adhering to the same.  I've made a spot correction on a cadet who looked out of the corner of his eye at a SM whose hair was at the bottom of his ear.  You could see the recognition on the cadet's face that CAP's standards aren't serious.  IOW, "If I need to do this, why doesn't Capt Nosnhoj?

That cadet saw that what we're saying is "A double standard is better than no standards at all."  If we're going to let our "freak flags fly", then we'd best do it in senior squadrons only, away from the questioning eyes of those heads full of mush into whom we're trying to inculcate values.

If cadets aren't aware of the different grooming standards for the different uniforms, you're the one who's failed them, and have failed in the course of your duties.

To require all members in all uniforms to have the same length of hair because you don't feel like covering all the uniforms is completely unnecessary, and many would consider it asinine.

Military haircut and grooming is not practical for everyone in the world, no matter how much you want it to be. It's an intolerant, and outdated, mindset. Educate cadets on everything they should know. Don't leave things out because you don't feel like teaching it, and then demand that others meet a standard that does not exist just to make it easier for yourself.

[SarDragon]

I agree with the "setting an example" idea. However, I am personally mixed on strict compliance.

Because of my facial hair, I am consigned to the corporate uniform combinations. When I first reaffiliated with a local unit in 1999 after a ten year gap in participation, I had collar length hair. After spending most of my life having my hair length dictated by others, I had decided that my hair length was nobody's business but my own.

Six months later, I thought better of the idea, and cut my hair to a more appropriate length. Now that I'm in a senior squadron, it's a little longer, but still nothing like it was ten years ago. Right now it's hanging on my ears, and telling me that it's time for a haircut.

YMMV.

[Eclipse]

I can't stand there and tell a cadet his haircut is too long for standards if I'm not adhering to the same.  I've made a spot correction on a cadet who looked out of the corner of his eye at a SM whose hair was at the bottom of his ear.  You could see the recognition on the cadet's face that CAP's standards aren't serious.  IOW, "If I need to do this, why doesn't Capt Nosnhoj?

The standard for the senior is different - welcome to the real world.

As long as the senior is within reg for his standard, its not the cadet's concern.  And even if the senior is wearing a uniform out of reg, that's not an excuse for someone else.  They can simply be the poster boy for bad example and you move on.

This nonsense about "Jimmy doesn't go to bed at 8:30, so why should I?" That kids try to pull doesn't fly.

You need to be consistent in your application and remediation, but that doesn't mean everyone is the same.  Last I checked, female members, both senior and cadet, had different grooming standards as well.

I am personally not an advocate of long hair, period, preferring the the Navy Flo-Bees at 1 & 2 over something I have to comb, however CAP says my opinion of someone else's hairstyle is irrelevant, as long as they meet the regs for the style of uniform they choose.

I don't burn any mental calories thinking beyond that.  Its counterproductive and I'm not allowed to anyway.

[Ned]

I can't stand there and tell a cadet his haircut is too long for standards if I'm not adhering to the same. 

So, seriously, does that mean that all seniors at cadet units need to be able to run a mile, do pushups, and the sit and reach to Spaatz standards?

And keep their weight to the standards in the back of the 39-1, (even though most cadets don't have to)?

Be able to take and pass the comprehensive aerospace and leadership exams required for the milestones?

Maintain a "satisfactory academic record"?

Be unmarried?


Those are all standards that cadets are required to meet as they progress through the program.

Why would seniors "setting the example" only have to meet some of the cadet standards and not others?

I'm honestly curious.

Ned Lee

[wuzafuzz]

Here we go again...

What exactly is the contention with seniors meeting CAPs standards and working with cadets? 
How does having long hair have a negative affect on them?

As long as we all follow the rules we agreed to follow when we became members, the rest should be a non-issue.

Long hair?  Fine, just don't wear uniforms that require short hair.  Long hair or facial hair don't send a negative message in and of themselves.  Violating the rules through willful behavior or ignorance definitely provides a bad example.