When to wear the Blues?

[RiverAux]

We need to be visible.  Until we get over this fear of being seen we never will be.

Its not a fear of being seen, but rather a case of following our regulations. The uniform is to be worn for CAP business of some type or another and attending a relative's graduation from boot camp is not a Civil Air Patrol activity that warrants wear of our uniform.  Now, if a CAP member was invited to speak to the graduating class, certainly they should wear their uniform.  But CAP members don't have carte blanche to wear their uniforms any time they feel like it just to "show the flag".

Lets say I decide to go on a cross-country vacation with plans to visit military museums in 6 states.  Is it ok for me to take my CAP uniform and wear it when I visit those museums?  If not, how is that any different from this situation? 

[DC]

I am all for the widespread wear of Air Force style uniforms, increasing our ties to the military, and increasing CAP's public profile, but there are appropriate times to wear the uniform, and not-so-appropriate times.

Uniforms should be proudly worm during CAP activities and when you are representing CAP in an official capacity.

Uniforms really shouldn't be worn at any other time. It has nothing to do with being ashamed to wear the uniform, or being embarrassed by being a member of CAP, it is simply a case of appropriate attire. Do you wear a bathing suit to a wedding? No, of course not, you pick appropriate attire based on what you will be doing. Choosing when to wear, or not wear a uniform is the same thing.

I would also like to point out the validity of the comments concerning recent boot camp grads being salute happy. By appearing wearing officer rank insignia you will likely make them uncomfortable if you attempt to socialize and just act like your daughter's mom, rather than the officer that your uniform proclaims you to be. Just go in whatever civilian dress is appropriate, I think it will end up being much more comfortable for all involved.

[Prospector]

Ok, folks, I just have to weigh in here as both an active-duty veteran and CAP Senior Member...

First, the wearing of CAP dress uniforms is completely appropriate when attending any military type event. CAP as the Air Force Auxiliary represents an organization that is tied to our parent organization in a very unique way and we should wear our uniforms with the same pride that all other military and civil service agencies do.

I agree with Maj. Carrales here. Properly wearing your dress uniform with pride is not "trolling", especially on a military base where the commander of the base has given permission to wear it. The wearing of a military dress uniform is entirely appropriate at a military graduation ceremony. In fact, this is a major event congratulating the new service members for their service and supporting them in their new careers. Wearing the CAP officer dress uniform to the ceremony is a show of respect for the new boots. You will see that there will be tons of people there in uniform - many enlisted and officers and there will be saluting going on everywhere. Saluting is a sign of respect both ways. Read the Respect on Display pamphlet if you need a refresher.

If a new boot salutes you, that is fine. You can choose to tell them that a salute is not necessary if you feel that they are scared stiff at your presence.

If you wear your CAP uniform with pride and don't act like a pompous @ss, and actually engage your son or daughter's service friends (and their parents) in casual conversation, that will go a long way in breaking the ice and showing these new recruits that they are now "officially" members of a greater team and are welcomed and respected.

Remember, being a boot is tough enough, so actually saluting them and then shaking their hands as an officer in congratulations will probably be a great memory for them. It shows them that all service members are actually human and it is ok to actually talk to officers and senior enlisted casually when appropriate.

Anyway, if my daughter were graduating from boot, I would want to show her as much respect and admiration as I could at the event, and I would want her to feel proud that she is joing in a long tradition of service. However, this is just my feeling and each parent / child has to discuss these things in the open. If you actually give your daughter the opportunity to voice her opinion on the event, and abide by her wishes, that would be best for all concerned.

In fact, you may even want to discuss the fact in the context of mutual respect for each other. If she just wouldn't feel comfortable with having you come in uniform after you discuss it, then I think it should be her call.

Ok, end of rant.

[Smokey]

Prospector,


Well said....in fact, OUTSTANDING.

Sparky I agree with you.  We are pround members of an organization that goes back to WWII and our members served well and some paid the ultimate price.  It is not trolling for salutes or seeking to upstage anyone.  We are part of the military family.  I know that rankles the flying club members, but--too bad.

Wear it with pride, return sharply any salutes, spread the word about CAP and most of all, be professional.

[Hawk200]

.... spread the word about CAP and most of all, ...

As an add, I would suggest carrying some info about Civil Air Patrol as well. A few of the smaller pamphlets will fit in the inside pocket of the Service Coat.

For those of you that actually have CAP business cards, I would suggest placing the CAP website on the card somewhere; people can look up the site themselves.

A lot of the graduates of acedemies have parents that are/were military, and this can be a good place to get the word out.

[Short Field]

It is still inappropirate.   

[Fifinella]

Yes she can wear her blues but have her first check with her Squadron Commander.

"She" is a he.

[Hawk200]

It is still inappropirate.   

Then provide a cite as to the inappropiateness of it.

39-1 (Table 1-1) includes this statement: when attending social activities or dinners on military installations, the wear of a CAP uniform is not restricted.

As to the awards dinner, the wear may be questionable under the letter of the pub, but the setting is still within the spirit. Personally, not against it. But if absolute clarification is needed, the NHQ should be contacted.

[RiverAux]

Here is how I recommend someone make the call about whether to wear the CAP uniform to a non-CAP event:

If you happened to get killed at the event, while in CAP uniform, do you think CAP would have any reason to deny your heirs the CAP death benefit?  In other words, would they have any reason to make the claim that it was not a CAP-authorized activity? 

If the original poster wants to follow the advice of those who think you can wear your CAP uniform on base for any reason at any time, I would advise that you get approval in writing or by email from your squadron commander to wear the uniform at the event.  That way, if there is any question about it later, you will be able to prove that you tried to do the right thing (even if the commander gets fired for approving something he shouldn't have).

[Short Field]

Then provide a cite as to the inappropiateness of it.
39-1 (Table 1-1) includes this statement: when attending social activities or dinners on military installations, the wear of a CAP uniform is not restricted.
As to the awards dinner, the wear may be questionable under the letter of the pub, but the setting is still within the spirit. Personally, not against it. But if absolute clarification is needed, the NHQ should be contacted.

First, I don't see a military graduation ceremony as a "social activity".   Second, the awards dinner is something his town puts on and is not on a military installation and does specifically honor CAP participation. 

Some of you just don't get it and ONLY see this as a ANTI-CAP post or ANTI-MILITARY UNIFORM post.   It is about wearing a officer uniform to his daughter's graduation from basic training.   It is about wearing a Salute-Magnet around a bunch of excited young kids who are celebrating finishing the first step in their military career. 

I don't believe I ever said CAP uniform   and know I never used the words "posers/pretenders" or "inferior USAF Officers" (although someone is dreaming if they believe CAP Officers are USAF Officers). 

[Cecil DP]

It also wouldn't hurt to call the RTC and ask if the wearing of an AF Auxiliary uniform is apropriate. I also agree with the suggestion that she contact her daughter about her preferences. After all it is her celebration.

[RiverAux]

Now, there are some other circumstances where it might be appropriate to wear a CAP uniform to the graduation.  For example, say the graduate was a former cadet from your unit and she had invited the squadron to attend.  In that case, I wouldn't have a problem with it being made a squadron event and everyone (senior and cadet) wearing their uniforms.   

I'd even go so far as to say that if the graduate had invited her former squadron commander to attend, that could probably be considered CAP business. 

Now, even if it was "legal" to wear the uniform to the event, I agree with Shortfield that it might not be appropriate. 

[Walkman]

Wow, I really didn't mean to start such a heated discussion.

First off, I'm NOT a she.

Also, Shortfield, you did offend me with you accusation of "trolling for salutes". My intent was not to cruise around the graduation like some sort of big-wig.

This kind of discussion is one of the reasons I don't hang out on this board much any more. Too many heated opinions, too much name-calling, etc.

[Prospector]

Now, even if it was "legal" to wear the uniform to the event, I agree with Shortfield that it might not be appropriate.

The real answer here for CAP members is found in the CAP Regs - period. Sorry to say that any one of our own opinions on the matter doesn't really matter. If the Regs say you can wear the uniform on this occasion and there are no other official orders (Say by the base commander or your own squadron chain of command) that state otherwise, then you have the option to do it or not based upon your own interpretation of the situation. If the Regs say Nay or don't address it at all, then you have no option.

In terms of helping anyone to determine if an event is really considered a "social event" in terms of a military function, one key element is whether or not civilians are encouraged to attend. If the outside public (civilians) are attending the military function, then it is a "social event". If it's closed doors for "members only" and the commander doesn't specifically designate it as a "social event" then it is not. An example of a closed door social event might be something like a unit "dining in".

I would agree though that if your daughter doesn't mind, but you are still unsure, ask your squadron commander to give you their opinion. Hope this helps the original questioner.

[Eclipse]

Are you going to come all the way from UT?  When is the graduation?

Don't make more of this than it is.

CAP is a welcome presence on the RTC.  We have a 17+ year history of running a great encampment there, and every year we're helped by 70+ Petty Officers, Chiefs, and other personnel.  We've got 2 units and the State Director on the NTC, so they know who we are.

If your recruit is cool with it, have at it and enjoy the day, if not, ditto.  You won't by a long shot be the only officer in attendance, there will be plenty officiating and probably a few with graduates of their own.

If you wear the uniform make sure you render as good as you get, otherwise, don't over think it.

And if you need a good, quick, place to eat for breakfast or lunch, hit the Full Moon on 41 just South of 137.

Otherwise between Gurnee mills and other retail places there's plenty of places to go afterwards.  If you're looking for something a bit more upscale and quieter, Google around the Lake Forest area just North of the base.

[Walkman]

Shes just starting her senior year, so she wouldn't ship out until this summer at the soonest. My post was just something that occurred to me as we;ve been talking about the Navy at home.

We have family in Michigan, so on the way out from UT, we'll probably make a vacation out of it.

[RiverAux]

Now, even if it was "legal" to wear the uniform to the event, I agree with Shortfield that it might not be appropriate.

The real answer here for CAP members is found in the CAP Regs - period. Sorry to say that any one of our own opinions on the matter doesn't really matter.

Exactly right which is why it is not appropriate to wear a CAP uniform to some event that has no official relationship to CAP at all. 

The argument seems to be that this falls under the "social event exception in CAPM39-1 however no one is looking at the top of the column under which the "social activity" clause falls, which reads (emphasis mine):

When Conducting CAP Business

So, if the social activity on the military base involves CAP business, you may wear the CAP uniform.  If you are visiting a military installation on CAP business, you may wear the CAP uniform. 

However, if you are not on CAP business, you cannot wear the CAP uniform.

I don't think it can be any simpler or more obvious than that and in this situation it does not appear that attending the graduation is CAP business, so the CAP uniform is not allowed. 

Incidentally, if you believe that the table authorizes the wear of a CAP uniform to any social activity on a military base you must also believe you can wear a CAP uniform anytime you are flying commercially, even if you aren't on CAP business.  They are noted in the Table in exactly the same way. 

[Walkman]

Now, even if it was "legal" to wear the uniform to the event, I agree with Shortfield that it might not be appropriate.

The real answer here for CAP members is found in the CAP Regs - period. Sorry to say that any one of our own opinions on the matter doesn't really matter.

Exactly right which is why it is not appropriate to wear a CAP uniform to some event that has no official relationship to CAP at all. 

The argument seems to be that this falls under the "social event exception in CAPM39-1 however no one is looking at the top of the column under which the "social activity" clause falls, which reads (emphasis mine):

When Conducting CAP Business

So, if the social activity on the military base involves CAP business, you may wear the CAP uniform.  If you are visiting a military installation on CAP business, you may wear the CAP uniform. 

However, if you are not on CAP business, you cannot wear the CAP uniform.

I don't think it can be any simpler or more obvious than that and in this situation it does not appear that attending the graduation is CAP business, so the CAP uniform is not allowed. 

Incidentally, if you believe that the table authorizes the wear of a CAP uniform to any social activity on a military base you must also believe you can wear a CAP uniform anytime you are flying commercially, even if you aren't on CAP business.  They are noted in the Table in exactly the same way.

That makes a lot of sense River. I wish someone had stated it that way at the beginning, instead of arguing opinions.

Slightly off-topic: Sorry to rant, but I've become completely sick of constant snark, bitterness, partisanship, arguing and every other type of inconsiderate communication that seems to take place in every sector of public discourse. I can't even have an innocent chat here without it devolving. I'm almost ready to turn off every form of media in my house and only watch reruns of the Andy Griffeth show.

[RiverAux]

Unfortunately, our uniform reg is not written as tightly as it might have been and in this particular case there is a lot of discretion available to the squadron commander to say if a particular event is or is not CAP business.  Different people will interpret it differently, and some of those interpretations can be wrong. 

As to CAPTalk, I've always said that the worst thing that someone can do in regards to their CAP-related morale, is participate in a discussion board such as this.   Some are willing to take that risk to their morale because they enjoy the discussions while for others it isn't worth it. 

[Smokey]

Walkman,

While I understand why you asked the question here, I think you have discovered that such a question brings out the vermin, trolls and other naysayers who will attack without mercy.

There are some here that if you asked them what day of the week it is , they would do their best to tear you a new one and try to cite a twisted meaning to a reg to justify it.

Unfortunately, we do have those in CAP who feel it is their duty to mock others. 

For me... Thank your daughter for me for choosing to serve her country.  I appreciate her dedication and service.  May she serve honorably and with courage.