Military Service Dress Uniform

[SAR-EMT1]

Mike - Thank you, but I did not see in there where it said that military service dress uniform was prohibited was prohibited. All I saw that Table 1-1 offered was when CAP uniforms where perscribed. If it truly becomes and issue I will wear appropriate civilian attire.

That's just it, if it isn't in there it's not permitted.

The way I have always looked at it, if its not PROHIBITED in the regs then its allowed.  I have had this reiterated again and again by several LT Cols and even a retired General. The key idea is to complete the mission. 

[Hawk200]

The way I have always looked at it, if its not PROHIBITED in the regs then its allowed.  I have had this reiterated again and again by several LT Cols and even a retired General. The key idea is to complete the mission. 

To write regulations that specifically forbid everything that was not allowed would turn each reg into something the size of an encyclopedia. That's why they tell you what you can do, not what you can't. I've seen many in the military try to do the "it's not forbidden" thing. In many cases, it's come back to bite them, sometimes disastrously.

When it comes to things specifically forbidden, there is nothing that says I can't salute with my left hand. Does that mean it's allowed? It doesn't say I can't wear my badges over my nametape if I want, does that mean it's OK? I don't think there is anything that says I can't wear a green boonie with my BDU's, so is it an option if it's not specifically forbidden? There is no reg that says that I can't have someone else take my tests for me either, is there?

Those may seem to be extreme examples, but they're still examples. If we all try to say "It's not prohibited", where do we end up? In a serious quagmire. Wisest thing is to comply with what is spelled out, and when it's not, try to act in the spirit of the guidelines set for us.

[Stonewall]

I don't care what some Lt Col or retired general says.  You try that stance in the military outside of combat where all regulations can be thrown out the window.  We are not in combat, we are CAP and we're talking about uniforms.  We're not even talking a life or death situation on a SAR mission.  Some situations call for creativity, flexibility and thinking outside the box; this is not one of those situations.  This is about doing the right thing and knowing it. 

Its like an Army combat veteran wearing their combat patch on their CAP BDUs.  It doesn't say you can't, so does that mean you can?  No.  That's an Army thing, not a CAP thing.

It's a stupid way to think about regulations and wrong.  People just use this mindset in CAP to try to look cool and get away with it.  Unfortunately you're setting a bad example for cadets.

[Short Field]

In the RM, regulations are a guide which a commander can violate depending on the situation.  You had better have an exceptionally good reason or you pay the price at your court martial.

Wearing a RM mess dress because you don't want to show up in a suit at a CAP function doesn't even come close to being a good reason.  

[IceNine]

Mike - Thank you, but I did not see in there where it said that military service dress uniform was prohibited was prohibited. All I saw that Table 1-1 offered was when CAP uniforms where perscribed. If it truly becomes and issue I will wear appropriate civilian attire.

That's just it, if it isn't in there it's not permitted.

The way I have always looked at it, if its not PROHIBITED in the regs then its allowed.  I have had this reiterated again and again by several LT Cols and even a retired General. The key idea is to complete the mission. 

Nope. 

I would strongly suggest that you think about that long and hard.

[PHall]

Mike - Thank you, but I did not see in there where it said that military service dress uniform was prohibited was prohibited. All I saw that Table 1-1 offered was when CAP uniforms where perscribed. If it truly becomes and issue I will wear appropriate civilian attire.

That's just it, if it isn't in there it's not permitted.

The way I have always looked at it, if its not PROHIBITED in the regs then its allowed.  I have had this reiterated again and again by several LT Cols and even a retired General. The key idea is to complete the mission. 

Suggest you read, two or three times if needed, CAPM 39-1, Paragraph 1-1, Sentences 7, 8 and 10.
It doesn't get more clear then that.

[PORed]

Ok this is getting way out of hand. Roxysox asked if anyone thought if it would be a problem if she wore her USMC Blues to a dress uniform CAP event until she got the money to get a set of CAP blues together. She never insinuated that she was going to wear her USMC uniforms all the time. I did read the CAP Uniform Manual and it even says in the paragraph that PHall quoted that it covers how to wear and when to wear CAP uniforms. Last time I checked CAP wasn't a Military Branch, and therefore would not have the authority over military members or their uniforms. Also the CAP Uniform Manual can not dictate what civilian clothing a person wears. For those of you that want Roxy to wear civvies to the CAP blues event, Roxy is retired now (IE a Civilian) and her USMC Blues are authorized for her to continue to wear as a Civilian. As for people saying someone would get Court Marshaled over a uniform offense, that is highly unlikely unless it was a repeated problem that the service member had been counseled on and even Non Judicial Punished on before it got to that point. The regulations and manuals are there for a reason, and they do dictate what hand you salute with, when you can wear the boonie hat, and the placement of badges on the uniforms. They tell you very specifically how things are to be done properly. If Roxysox was asking about wearing her division patch or shooting badges on a CAP uniform I would agree with you, but she isn't, and no matter what some of the people here are saying, the CAP Uniform Manual does not say anything about this situation. In the same vein, Roxy is joining to be a member of CAP, and in so doing she is supposed to follow certain criteria to be a member and one of those is to wear proper CAP uniforms for whatever the occasion dictates. Remember she has said, and started off by saying, she was just waiting to get the money to put the blues together. Ultimately if you can't cut some slack to a retired military veteran wounded in her service to her country and ultimately you the people, in the fact she wants to temporarily wear the military uniform she earned to a military cadet program then you are incredibly callus.

[PHall]

PORed, you're right, CAP members are not under the UCMJ.
But if you read the membership application it says that by signing you agree to follow CAP regulations.
And failure to follow regulations can result in termination of your membership.

Just like any other organization....

Oh, and I didn't say she couldn't wear her Marine Corps uniform. But I did ask what does the Marine Corps Uniform manual have to say on the subject.

If she had been an Air Force member she would be on some shaky ground if she wore her Air Force uniform to a CAP function.

I'm a retired Air Force Reservist and even I can't wear my Air Force uniform to a purely CAP event.

[PORed]

PHall, I agree with you and said that in my last post. What I am saying as well is Roxy doesn't have CAP/USAF blues, she has said she is working on a set once she has the money. It has been said for her to wear civvies to the CAP blues event she talked about, in the CAP Uniform Manual's eye her USMC Blues or a Dress or suit are the same thing. It is something out of CAP's control. If she was saying she was going to wear it all the time I would agree with you all, but she is saying she will wear it only a few times until she has the money to complete a set of CAP blues. Uniforms are there to present and image and mindset of all one team/unit. If you force her to wear her civvies that puts her even farther apart from that team/unit mindset then if you put her in USMC Blues.

[Short Field]

The guidance from National that is in the Knowledgebase is not to wear ANY military uniform to a CAP function if you are a CAP member.  However, because they didn't spell it out word for word in a manuel, it doesn't count??

Please don't try and tell me a USMC uniform is considered "civvies" by CAP!!!!  You are the only one trying to classify a USMC uniform as "civilian dress", not CAP.   

[PORed]

No I am saying being she is retired now, and therefore a civilian as she is not an active or reserve military member. I am also saying Roxysox as a civilian is entitled to wear her USMC blues in accordance to US Code, and finally there is no difference in the impact of if she wears her blues or civilian clothing to the CAP event.  I see no issue as she transitions to CAP blues as soon as convenient.

[JAFO78]

  Sheet of paper taken from drawer, Very LARGE X placed on such. Taped to wall. Also written on this paper the following.....


                                       HIT HEAD HERE


After this apply ice pack to head and aspirin for pain.


This post reminds me of a dog chasing his tail....not going anywhere.

[PORed]

Rob, well said. Of course being I am on mid-watchs dieing trying to stay awake it is good that I am having to concentrate on the post to try and make my point.

[Stonewall]

No I am saying being she is retired now, and therefore a civilian as she is not an active or reserve military member. I am also saying Roxysox as a civilian is entitled to wear her USMC blues in accordance to US Code, and finally there is no difference in the impact of if she wears her blues or civilian clothing to the CAP event.  I see no issue as she transitions to CAP blues as soon as convenient.

I still think it's inapropriate.  Throw eggs now, but this is how I feel about the subject.

The Marine Corps can say all it wants about wearing the uniform.  What people are arguing here is no different than at a civilian job.  The security officers that work under me have a standardized uniform.  However, I have written the SOP to say they may wear a different set of pants than what are issued so long as they are not cargo pants and are navy blue.

My SOP does not say they can't wear the USMC uniform, but please, try and wear it to work.

If she is a civilian now, retired or not, and is in CAP, but still trying to acquire the appropriate uniforms, then the right thing for her to do is to wear the equivelant civilian attire.  I wouldn't care what anyone thinks they're entitled to.  It's the right thing to do.  We're not talking a Veterans Day ceremony where the general public is invited, we're talking a specific function of the Civil Air Patrol. 

Remember folks, we don't have to agree on everything.  No hating.

[PHall]

No I am saying being she is retired now, and therefore a civilian as she is not an active or reserve military member. I am also saying Roxysox as a civilian is entitled to wear her USMC blues in accordance to US Code, and finally there is no difference in the impact of if she wears her blues or civilian clothing to the CAP event.  I see no issue as she transitions to CAP blues as soon as convenient.

If she's retired, then she is not a civilian, she is a retired member of the Marine Corps. And she even has a DD Form 2 (MC) to prove it.
She's still a Marine. Just ask her...

Oh, and I'm a retired Air Force Reserve member, I think I may know just a little bit about this subject.

[Timbo]

^ Retired members can wear the uniform of their respective service anytime too, right??

Discharged members have to meet certain circumstantial criteria if I am not mistaken. 

[Short Field]

^ Correct.  There are no weight standards either, just wear the "I was there a long long time" lapel pin and you are good to go.

I am a Commissioned Officer who happens to be on the retired list.  Just takes a set of orders to move me to the active list.  I also happen to be a former Marine who then enlisted in the USAF before I got tired of working for a living and took a Commission.  I wear a suit to CAP formal functions because I am still too cheap to buy a second Mess Dress jacket and don't care to cut the silver braid off my other one.  One day I will break now and get one but not this year.  When I attend functions as a Commissioned Officer, I either wear my Mess Dress or my tux with my medals attached to the lapel.

[PHall]

^ Retired members can wear the uniform of their respective service anytime too, right??

Discharged members have to meet certain circumstantial criteria if I am not mistaken. 

Actually, there are limits when a retired member can wear the uniform too.

Basically, you just can't decide that I going to wear my uniform today because I ran out of clean clothes.
You have to have a valid reason like you're going to a funeral or a ceremony or something like that.
AFI 36-2903, Chapter 6 covers all of this.

And you're right, there are no weight limits, of course there are no weight limits in the Air Force anymore either.
Just pass your PT test and be within your allowable body fat percentage.

[Short Field]

^^^or body fat limits when you retire...

[Pylon]

Ask... the.... commander.