Military Service Dress Uniform

[lordmonar]

Additionally, A CAPRAP military officer has authority over an active member.....a CAPRAP/military officer has no command authority over a discharged veteran, uniform or not.  Nowhere in CAP does the CAPRAP fall into any chain of command for civilian volunteers.

Wait the CAPRAP Officer has authority over Active Duty personell??  So what happens when the CAPRAP is a Captain the CAP member is an AF Major?  Also, the whole oversight by the AF toward the CAP was changed when the laws were changed, making us the sometimes Auxiliary.  They have very limited Scope. 

I think the CAPRAP Officer has authority over the Reserve enlisted CAPRAP's.  Not Anyone and everyone. 

No...the CAPRAP was telling me the story.....his involvement was explaining the rules to the AD member...it was CAP who made the call.

[RiverAux]

CAP has authority over CAP uniforms.  Can someone please tell me where CAP has authority over a military veteran appropriately and legally wearing the uniform they are entitled to wear? 

We're talking about CAP events here.  The law apparently allows former servicement to wear the uniform on certain occassions but it doesn't make it illegal for an organization to say, "No, you can't wear it to an event".  Are you saying that if the former Marine wants to wear his marine uniform while flying on a CAP mission, that we can't tell him/her no? 

[Timbo]

US CODE FOLKS......for former members wearing the unfiorm of an Armed Service:

TITLE 10 > Subtitle A > PART II > CHAPTER 45 > § 772
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§ 772. When wearing by persons not on active duty authorized
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(a) A member of the Army National Guard or the Air National Guard may wear the uniform prescribed for the Army National Guard or the Air National Guard, as the case may be.
(b) A member of the Naval Militia may wear the uniform prescribed for the Naval Militia.
(c) A retired officer of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps may bear the title and wear the uniform of his retired grade.
(d) A person who is discharged honorably or under honorable conditions from the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps may wear his uniform while going from the place of discharge to his home, within three months after his discharge.
(e) A person not on active duty who served honorably in time of war in the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps may bear the title, and, when authorized by regulations prescribed by the President, wear the uniform, of the highest grade held by him during that war.
(f) While portraying a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, an actor in a theatrical or motion-picture production may wear the uniform of that armed force if the portrayal does not tend to discredit that armed force.
(g) An officer or resident of a veterans' home administered by the Department of Veterans Affairs may wear such uniform as the Secretary of the military department concerned may prescribe.
(h) While attending a course of military instruction conducted by the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, a civilian may wear the uniform prescribed by that armed force if the wear of such uniform is specifically authorized under regulations prescribed by the Secretary of the military department concerned.
(i) Under such regulations as the Secretary of the Air Force may prescribe, a citizen of a foreign country who graduates from an Air Force school may wear the appropriate aviation badges of the Air Force.
(j) A person in any of the following categories may wear the uniform prescribed for that category:
(1) Members of the Boy Scouts of America.
(2) Members of any other organization designated by the Secretary of a military department.

[JayT]

Can I wear my EMT uniform? Or my EMS Academy uniform?

[lordmonar]

I would hardly compare a Marine wearing their blues to a JROTC cadet or SM Bagofdonuts.
I love it.   A CAP squadron Commander telling a veteran they werent allowed to wear their military uniform to a CAP function.    :clap:

CAP has authority over CAP uniforms.  Can someone please tell me where CAP has authority over a military veteran appropriately and legally wearing the uniform they are entitled to wear?  We arent talking about a vet wearing the uniform on a daily basis, but one wearing their uniform on special occasions. 

Additionally, A CAPRAP military officer has authority over an active member.....a CAPRAP/military officer has no command authority over a discharged veteran, uniform or not.  Nowhere in CAP does the CAPRAP fall into any chain of command for civilian volunteers.

CAP has authority over all of its members and visitors at our functions....if Roxysox was just a visitor to the event then she can wear what she likes (assuming it was appropriate).....but she is a CAP member and comes under the authority of her local commander.  That commander most certainly say what will and will not be worn.

My point.....when I was squadron commander.....is that unit integrity was very important.  I wanted as many people as possible to be in the USAF-style uniforms or corporates as appropriate.  If a member did not have the right uniform....they wore appropriate civilians attire.

This Marine is a CAP member....I would not want her to wear here Marine uniforms to a CAP event any more then I would want a JROTC cadet was was also a CAP cadet wearing the wrong uniform.

When you start to make exceptions, you start to loose your integrity.

Let SM Roxysox wear her USMC uniform instead of USAF blues...then you let SM Bagodonuts wear polos instead of the blazer/service dress...that leads to civies instead of any uniform.

Like I said....I understand that she is low on funds.....but you wear the appropriate uniform to CAP functions.....not what ever uniform you may have hanging in your closet.

[lordmonar]

Can I wear my EMT uniform? Or my EMS Academy uniform?

And that is my point....down the slippery slope we go!

[RiverAux]

By the way, I don't think the person asking the question is trying to "get away" with anything and I don't think the others in this thread think so either.  But, the fact remains that CAP as an organization has the authority to say "wear what we tell you, or don't come". 

If this was going on in my squadron and the person was still in the military and we were having a formal event, I would probably let it slide the first time, but I would probably ask them to wear civilian attire from then on. 

[Stonewall]

In some cases this can be an example of a young service member "showing off" their uniform.  I've seen it and I've done it.  When I was a young 19 year old grunt in the Army, I wore my uniform to a CAP meeting to "show off".  Later, when I became active again, after getting settled in, I converted one set of Army BDUs over to CAP.  

If I were a young enlisted soldier new to CAP and didn't have funds to purchase a CAP service dress uniform to wear to a function, I may opt to wear my service dress equivelant.  But to meetings, I cannot see it being that hard to get a uniform.  In fact, if I see E-3s and E-4s with $20K cars, Wii, xbox, and wardrobes that I can't afford as a civilian, yet they say they can't afford a set of short-sleeve blues for CAP, I think they're just making excuses.

If I were a Marine, former, active, retired, whatever, I personally would choose NOT to wear my Marine uniform to a CAP activity.  To a Veterans Day ceremony, yes.  But as a CAP member, only once did I wear my Army uniform to a CAP meeting and that was to my old CAP squadron and the sole purpose was to show off my jump wings, infantry cord and ribbon.

All that said, when I was in DC wing, you'd be hard pressed to find a CAP meeting that didn't have a military uniform in attendance, to include squadron commanders.  Three squadron commanders in a row, about 8 years worth, were active duty officers.  Two AF Lt Cols and one Army Major, and they almost exclusively wore their military uniforms because they came from the Pentagon, NRO and DIA straight to CAP.  If they had a chance to change into a CAP uniform they did.

Personally, and this is just my personal opinion, as a former Army NCO and current NCO in the Air National Guard, I don't think it's appropriate for me to show up to a CAP meeting in my AF blues with NCO stripes on when 95% of the time I'm a CAP Lt Col.  Am I proud to be an NCO?  Sure.  But in the grand scheme of things I don't think it's too terribly impressive.  When on active duty and performing the duties as an NCO day in and day out where you are the one in charge, sure, it's something.  But in CAP, it truly doesn't mean too much.  It's just the nature of the beast.  I've got a retired E-7 and a Reserve E-6 working for me on the civilian side, and their rank doesn't mean a thing to me.  Sure, I respect the fact they served, but that doesn't mean they can show up in their military uniforms to do their job.

And for those who say "tell me I can't wear my uniform, I earned that mo fo", I say, don't wear your uniform.  I've earned a few things too, few ribbons, badges, etc.  But as a former police officer, I'd like to have seen me showing up with an air assault badge on my police polyesters.  I probably would have been verbally counseled.  Just because you earned something from another organization, in another part of your life, does not always mean it's appropriate to wear elsewhere.

Finally, as an example.  Ranger school is one of the toughest schools in the military.  My Air Force Squadron Commander, a major, is a former Army Combat Engineer Officer and Ranger School graduate.  The Ranger Tab is not authorized for wear in the Air Force, and while he sure as hell earned it, through blood, sweat and tears, he cannot wear it.

[Pylon]

CAP can't tell a member of the Armed Forces when they can or cannot wear their uniform.  That's up to the services themselves.

What CAP can do is prescribe what it expects will be worn by those who have voluntarily become CAP members, when they are acting in a CAP capacity at a CAP activity.  In other words, if you're on CAP time and you're there volunteering you should be wearing the uniform our organization asks you to wear.  Working with cadets or flying a CAP aircraft, for example, you have to wear the CAP uniform. 

It has nothing to do with anything else you may or may not be entitled to wear.  You may be entitled to wear a grand sash or a crown or a police badge clipped to your belt.  CAP certainly can't tell you you're not entitled to it.  But if you volunteer for CAP and decide you want to participate in our activities, you've agreed to follow CAP rules when you do so.  The uniform regs are one of them. 

Let me put this another way  --  If you volunteered for the local police auxiliary, they'd expect you to wear your police uniform when you're on police time and performing police duties.  Even if you were entitled to wear another uniform, the police would want you wearing their uniform while you volunteered with them.    If you volunteered with the local boy scouts, they'd expect you to wear the appropriate scoutmaster uniform when you're on scout time performing scoutmaster duties even if you were authorized to wear a Marine uniform, a CAP uniform, a crown, a sash, a police badge or anything else.

Be proud of your service, wear your decorations (as authorized) proudly on your CAP uniform when on CAP time and wear your Marine uniform outside of CAP proudly, too.

[Short Field]

I am sure there are plenty who really don't care what CAP Knowledgebase says but here it is anyway:

Active duty or retired military wearing the CAP uniform

  Question
Is it appropriate for a recently retired USAF member now a CAP Captain to wear his USAF Dress Blue Uniform to a CAP wing banquet?
 
  Answer
No, not unless he is attending as a guest speaker or in some other role associated with his Air Force service. CAP members who are current active duty or retired military wear CAP uniforms during CAP activities.   CAP members who are active, reserve, and retired members of the armed forces are treated according to their CAP status when acting in a CAP capacity. Note: It would be appropriate for a non CAP member guest who is being honored, either active or retired military, to choose to wear the military mess dress uniform at a CAP wing banquet or other function.

See paragraph below from  AFI 10-2701 ORGANIZATION AND FUNCTION OF THE CIVIL AIR PATROL

1.3.1. CAP Grade. CAP uses military style grade for its membership at the discretion and approval of the Air Force. CAP officer or noncommissioned officer grade does not confer commissioned or noncommissioned officer status. CAP personnel have no authority over members of the armed forces. CAP members who are active, reserve, and retired members of the armed forces will be treated according to their CAP status when acting in a CAP capacity. The Air Force has authority over the CAP grade structure.

Also see uniform wear instructions for retirees (below) from  AFI 36-2903 DRESS AND PERSONAL APPEARANCE OF AIR FORCE PERSONNEL
If the member is retired he/she may wear the uniform prescribed at date of retirement, or any of the uniforms authorized for active duty personnel, including the dress uniforms. Do not mix uniform items. Retired individuals are authorized to wear the appropriate uniform at occasions of military ceremonies, at military funerals, weddings, memorial services, and inaugurals, patriotic parades on national holidays, other military parades or ceremonies in which any active or Reserve US military unit is taking part, at educational institutions when engaged in giving military instructions or responsible for military discipline,  and at social or other functions when the invitation has been influenced by the member's active military service.
Members receive the retired lapel button at retirement. Retirees wear the retired lapel button on the left lapel. Members whose assignments have included command at squadron, group or wing level are also authorized to wear the command insignia pin on the left lapel, below the retired lapel button.  Members whose last assignment prior to retirement was a First Sergeant and/or Command Chief may wear appropriate chevrons in all instances the uniform is worn.

[Gunner C]

Does Roxy want to be the center of attention or want to be there as a member of the unit to applaud the honorees?  I think the former instead of the latter.

I had a member who insisted on wearing his Army uniform to meetings instead of his CAP uniform.  He was training cadets and, frankly, was one of the best officers I've ever seen.  But the cadets saw him as an outsider and not part of the squadron.  It hurt unit cohesion and my efforts to mold it into an effective unit.

Uniform and unity have the same root.  If you want to be part of the unit, then look like it.  This has nothing to do with your service as a Marine.  That's something we all respect.  I'm proud as hell of my green beret, but I'd NEVER wear it to a meeting, much less my Army uniform.  It's just bad form.  Be a grown-up and make the transition to being a CAP member.

Gunner

[roxysox]

Whoa Loud and Clear. I don't want to be the center of attention Gunner, but you all made the valid point of if to be a member of CAP you agree to play by certant rules. My question was just can I wear my blues to the award and ceremonies night for my CAP unit until I get enough coin together to get the CAP dress uniform or wear approbate civilian clothing. I will wear the civvies until I can get a dress uniform together. Semper Vig and Semper Fi

[PaulR]

Can I wear my EMT uniform? Or my EMS Academy uniform?

By golly, lets not be silly.  

[PaulR]

When you start to make exceptions, you start to loose your integrity.

Let SM Roxysox wear her USMC uniform instead of USAF blues...then you let SM Bagodonuts wear polos instead of the blazer/service dress...that leads to civies instead of any uniform.

Like I said....I understand that she is low on funds.....but you wear the appropriate uniform to CAP functions.....not what ever uniform you may have hanging in your closet.

If her unit feels that way, she should be willing to loan her a uniform to wear until she can complete a kit of her own.     
She would be more out of place if she showed up in civies at a uniformed event.

You guys are making it seem like she is wanting to wear a Marine Corps uniform INSTEAD of the CAP one.  It was made clear from the beginning that this is not the case.  Please stop slanting the discussion in that direction.  It is not like she is wanting to substitute the Marine Corps uniform for the CAP one, like the Army Officer described above.  She has the desire to wear the correct uniform but does not have one to wear.  Big difference.

People wonder why there is a lack of volunteers these days... 

[Pylon]

My question was just can I wear my blues to the award and ceremonies night for my CAP unit until I get enough coin together to get the CAP dress uniform or wear approbate civilian clothing. I will wear the civvies until I can get a dress uniform together. Semper Vig and Semper Fi

If it were my unit, I would be fine with a brand new member wearing their military uniform to a banquet/ceremony for a one-time deal.  I have a few Air Guard and Active Army members in my unit who joined last year and they wore their AF/Army equivalents to the squadron banquet because they only had CAP BDUs.  We were cool with that because they wear an appropriate CAP uniform every other activity.  I can't reasonably expect a new member to run right out and assemble the whole closet of CAP uniforms.  It's taken me years to put together all the ones I have. 

I think the ultimate judgment call comes from the unit commander who's hosting this ceremony/activity.  If he or she is cool with it, then it flies.  If not, wear civvies and a proud lapel pin or something.

Sorry if it seems like we jumped on ya.  Welcome to CAP and CAPTalk, by the way.   

[Hawk200]

I don't think it would be appropriate for another uniform to be worn when the individual is a CAP member. I know it's harder for members formerly of other branches to put together the duds for CAP, but where do we draw the line? And what kind of precedent do we set by allowing it once? It stinks, I know, but we have pubs for a reason.

As for fronting some coin, I'm game. Gotta few bucks just sitting in the PayPal account that could stand to go to a good cause. Looking out for a fellow CAP and fellow service member seems to be one. Not something I would do for everybody, but being here in the desert has given me a new appreciation for my brothers and sisters in arms.

BTW, Stonewall, still looking for some "5.56 Inside" patches? Thinking about getting a few made up over here (for novelty purposes only, of course  )

[Stonewall]

BTW, Stonewall, still looking for some "5.56 Inside" patches? Thinking about getting a few made up over here (for novelty purposes only, of course  )

Heck yeah.  Hook me up.  I'll pay for a few of them.

[MSgt Van]

Speaking of PayPal, I've got a few $ in there that I'd love to see go to a good cause.

[Stonewall]

[Hawk200]

Saved it a long time ago, brother. Gonna go to alterations tomorrow to see what it would run me. I'll let you know what I find out. They may be a little rough, but I'm hoping that it will be somewhat inexpensive. Might look into a "7.62 Inside" variant. Gotta have something to stick on back of my helmet if I get the chance to fly  .

Anyway, how about roxysox? "Tis the season" and all that....