Seniors and military badges

[lordmonar]

Apples and oranges.   One off the team you can't wear your shuttle recovery team patch.  The air warfare school patch is a permanent award.   

And I read 39-1 differently than you.   No harm no foul.   Like I said YMMV.   

[Flying Pig]

I'm going to start wearing my USMC eagle globe and anchor on my left chest pocket. 

[lordmonar]

I'm going to start wearing my USMC eagle globe and anchor on my left chest pocket.

If we were the USMC Auxiliary I would say go for it!   

The AF Weapons School Graduate Patch is an authorized patch on USAF ABUs!    ABUs!   The USAF takes this patch very seriously.
So.....in the spirit of 39-1.

A) It ain't gonna piss off the USAF if we allow former/current "Patch Wearers" to continue wearing it.
B) We ain't gonna piss off any "Patch Wearers" by taking away their bright and shinny away from them.
C) It is in line with 39-1 in allowing non-CAP awards/badges/danglies....because we default "What does the AFI say?" and the AFI says they can wear it.

We can split hairs all day over "patch" vs "Badge".....and that's good.

Bottom line.....as in all things......if 39-1 does not give you a clear answer, ask your chain of command....it is their, and only their, option that counts. 

I would as adviser to my commander.....advise my commander to allow the wear of this patch on BDUs and AF FDUs.

[goblin]

C'mon.... all the 182 drivers are wearin em

Maybe it's my eyes, or maybe it's the angle of the pic, but those don't look like 182 drivers' wings to me...

It's your eyes.

I'll take your word for it, but at this angle, the shape of those look more like USAF senior pilot wings than CAP wings to me, and, at least in the past, the guys who'd be handing out the wings at AETCFC/SUPTFC were/had been USAF pilots...

No Air Force pilots would wear plastic encased rank or the CAP MAJCOM patch

[winterg]

Bottom line.....as in all things......if 39-1 does not give you a clear answer, ask your chain of command....it is their, and only their, option that counts. 

39-1 is pretty crystal clear that it is not authorized.  There is no "interpretation" involved here.  I sincerely hope you are trolling us for a laugh and not taking such a liberal attitude with regulations.  Nowhere does 39-1 have clause that authorizes items in the "spirit" of it.

[lordmonar]

Not trolling.

Serious.

10.8.  Additional Badge Information
10.8.1.  US Military badges may be worn on USAF-style uniforms in accordance with authorizations and instructions found in AFI 36-2903 when appropriate orders granted by competent military authority are present in the member's CAP personnel record.

Unless you can find a definitive description of what a badge is vs what a patch is......then it is up to interpretation.
The AF Weapons School Graduate patch is a type of badge that is awarded for permanent wear on ABUs and FDUs IAW 36-2903.
It is not a temporary team badge/patch (like the old PRIME BEEF/DSPT/T-Birds), it is not a temporary duty badge (like Fire Fighter/Security Forces/IG).

So....by my interpretation it is authorized for wear on CAP AF-Style Uniforms.

If you think that is liberal...okay. 

[goblin]

I stand corrected. Looking at the AFI (Attachment 5) the WIC patch is labeled as the WIC graduation badge.

So with that, I'd say it's allowable on BDUs. Still a no-go on FDUs.

[Nuke52]

C'mon.... all the 182 drivers are wearin em

Maybe it's my eyes, or maybe it's the angle of the pic, but those don't look like 182 drivers' wings to me...

It's your eyes.

I'll take your word for it, but at this angle, the shape of those look more like USAF senior pilot wings than CAP wings to me, and, at least in the past, the guys who'd be handing out the wings at AETCFC/SUPTFC were/had been USAF pilots...

No Air Force pilots would wear plastic encased rank or the CAP MAJCOM patch

He would if he were also a CAP member wearing his AF wings on his CAP flight suit.

[winterg]

Well, I stand corrected.  AFI 36-2903 was changed last year to read to allow the wear of Weapon's Instructor Course Badge on the ABU uniform.  10.5 & Attachment 5.  I'll admit that the AF made the issue as clear as mud by classifying these patches as "badges" but at least there is an actual reg citation and not that I think it is a cool patch. lol

[goblin]

C'mon.... all the 182 drivers are wearin em

Maybe it's my eyes, or maybe it's the angle of the pic, but those don't look like 182 drivers' wings to me...

It's your eyes.

I'll take your word for it, but at this angle, the shape of those look more like USAF senior pilot wings than CAP wings to me, and, at least in the past, the guys who'd be handing out the wings at AETCFC/SUPTFC were/had been USAF pilots...

No Air Force pilots would wear plastic encased rank or the CAP MAJCOM patch

He would if he were also a CAP member wearing his AF wings on his CAP flight suit.

That's a stretch.

[Nuke52]

C'mon.... all the 182 drivers are wearin em

Maybe it's my eyes, or maybe it's the angle of the pic, but those don't look like 182 drivers' wings to me...

It's your eyes.

I'll take your word for it, but at this angle, the shape of those look more like USAF senior pilot wings than CAP wings to me, and, at least in the past, the guys who'd be handing out the wings at AETCFC/SUPTFC were/had been USAF pilots...

No Air Force pilots would wear plastic encased rank or the CAP MAJCOM patch

He would if he were also a CAP member wearing his AF wings on his CAP flight suit.

That's a stretch.

Is it?  By what metric, exactly, do you make that assessment?

[goblin]

Methinks that you can only wear the FDU if you have a CAP rating.

If you have a CAP rating then you must wear that badge.

So if he's wearing an FDU, then he should be wearing CAP wings or he'd be in the wrong. (Embroidered patch ignored)

Long story short, when I choose to wear my bag to CAP, I just wear my AF one since I don't have a CAP aero rating. 

It's a stretch to think that a CAP senior member who is also an AD Senior Pilot would go to the efforts to get his own flight suit, add the plastic rank and all the CAP stuff and not be a CAP pilot.

[TheSkyHornet]

AFI 36-2903 18 JULY 2011 (as revised per the interim change dated 28 MAY 2015)
5.1.2.2. Badges
"If worn, ABU cloth badges will be worn."
"Only sew-on badges will be worn; pin-on type badges of other services will not be worn on the ABU."

CAPM 39-1 26 JUNE 2014  (as current per the memorandum dated 6 November 2015)
5.1.1.3.10. Military Badges.
"US military badges authorized by AFI 36-2903 for wear on the USAF-style uniform may be worn when earned through qualification, awarded by competent authority for service performed in any branch of the armed forces of the United States or its allies, AND authorized for wear on the USAF uniform by AFI 36-2903. Military badges will be placed in accordance with AFI 36-2903 and count towards the maximum of four badges worn on the uniform."
"Military badges on the BDUs may be worn in subdued colors as previously authorized by the Air Force for the BDUs if they cannot be obtained in ultramarine fabric."

CAP recognizes that a badge can come in sewn-on patch form. CAPM 39-1 goes so far as to call various "pins" and "badges" as "patches." Examples are the CAP Command Insignia Pin, which is referred to as a badge:
"5.1.1.3.9. CAP Command Insignia Pin (Unit and Group Commanders). Wear of
this badge is mandatory for all active and graduated commanders in the rank of lieutenant colonel and
below. Current commanders will wear the embroidered insignia sewn to the shirt ½ inch above the
nametape over the right pocket. Graduated commanders will sew the Command Insignia Pin on the
wearer's right centered on the upper pocket flap below the nametape. All insignia will have 1/8 inch of
blue showing at the widest and tallest point of the insignia. Commanders (current and graduated) may
only wear one commander pin, and current commanders wear the pin appropriate to their current
assignment."

If in patch form, in a location respective of where CAPM 39-1 identifies the location of metal insignia or sewn-in items, it is authorized if AFI 36-2903 allows it on the USAF working uniform. Bear in mind that the BDUs we wear versus the Air Force ABU is a completely different uniform and the location of the insignia needs to be adjusted and positioned in accordance with the location defined in our regulations, not the Air Force regulations. Precedence in the regulations identifies that the term "badge" is interchangeable.

I direct you, once again, to the fact that regulations should not be open to interpretation. They need to be clear and concise.

Methinks that you can only wear the FDU if you have a CAP rating.

If you have a CAP rating then you must wear that badge.

So if he's wearing an FDU, then he should be wearing CAP wings or he'd be in the wrong. (Embroidered patch ignored)

Long story short, when I choose to wear my bag to CAP, I just wear my AF one since I don't have a CAP aero rating. 

It's a stretch to think that a CAP senior member who is also an AD Senior Pilot would go to the efforts to get his own flight suit, add the plastic rank and all the CAP stuff and not be a CAP pilot.

You may only wear the FDU with a CAP pilot rating or aircrew mission rating. It's all laid out as to who is authorized to wear one.

CAPM 39-1
8.1.1. Authorized FDU:
"The USAF-style FDU and Corporate FDU (CFDU) are authorized functional
clothing for wear by individuals who perform aviation particular duties. Flight duty includes preparation,
preflight, in-flight, post-flight, and other flight related duties associated with aircraft operations. The
FDU and CFDU are authorized for wear by personnel who have or previously had a CAP aeronautical
rating as defined by CAPR 35-6, Aeronautical Ratings, Emergency Services Patch and Badges, and
Ground Team Badges, and/or have a current aircrew mission qualification (mission pilot, transport pilot,
observer, scanner, aerial photographer, etc.). Personnel who do not have a current aircrew mission
qualification or a current or prior aeronautical rating may be authorized wear of the FDU and CFDU on
days when actual flying is planned or anticipated. Wing commanders will determine when FDU and
CFDU wear is appropriate."

FDUs can have military aviation badges on them.

CAPM 39-1
8.2.4.1. Nametags.
"Badges authorized include one CAP aeronautical
rating, CAP occupational badges, a description of a mission qualification ("Mission Scanner") and
military aviation or occupational badge when earned through qualification, awarded by competent
authority for service performed in any branch of the armed forces of the United States or its allies, AND
authorized for wear on the USAF uniform by AFI 36-2903. All badges will be embossed in silver; wings
will be to the right or above an occupational badge, CAP wings above military wings"

[goblin]

Yeah that's pretty much what I said

[Nuke52]

Methinks that you can only wear the FDU if you have a CAP rating.

If you have a CAP rating then you must wear that badge.

So if he's wearing an FDU, then he should be wearing CAP wings or he'd be in the wrong. (Embroidered patch ignored)

Long story short, when I choose to wear my bag to CAP, I just wear my AF one since I don't have a CAP aero rating. 

It's a stretch to think that a CAP senior member who is also an AD Senior Pilot would go to the efforts to get his own flight suit, add the plastic rank and all the CAP stuff and not be a CAP pilot.

Okay, fair enough.  I've run across so many CAPers wearing bags who've never touched an airplane--and certainly weren't going flying that day--that I forgot about the 39-1 requirement of needing to be qualified aircrew to wear one.

I follow your logic, and it is sound, with one important caveat:  there are plenty of AD/retired military members (not to mention the straight-up civilians) who either don't know/care about some of the subtler differences between CAP and USAF uniform regs and default to what they "remember" from the AF or, for whatever reason, choose to ignore some of those subtleties and wear what they "[darn]-well earned in the RealMilitary^TM"...

We can't ignore that he is ignoring the prohibition on embroidered name tags, thus it is no longer such a stretch to believe he'd ignore your (correct) "CAP FDU means qualified CAP aircrew means CAP wings" logic.  You are right that in doing so, he'd be in the wrong, but assuming you agree with my point above that a handful of our members might not always be in 100% compliance with the regs, you must agree that he could, in fact, be wrong in this picture on not only one point, but on two...  Agreed?

You think it's a stretch that a dual CAP SM/AD senior pilot would go to the lengths necessary to procure himself a CAP flight suit.  I don't.  An AD senior pilot (or even Reservist, for that matter, flying for Delta "on the side") may just have a couple extra bucks in his pocket such that buying an additional bag for CAP isn't such a big deal, even if they haven't quite gotten around to taking that CAPF 5/91 ride just yet.  In fact, I personally have known AD (and Reserve and retired) AF aviators who are CAP senior members wanting to fit in and wear the CAP gear, and either didn't know 39-1's qual rule or, "[darn] it, I earned these nav wings, I'm going to wear them!"

Finally, although I'm always happy to overturn the ruling on the field when presented with indisputable video evidence, I've been around the block enough to trust my Mk-1 eyeballs in spotting the difference between CAP's circled tri-prop wings and the radiator grill on a set of USAF wings when I see them--even "at a distance in low light" with low pixel resolution...  Because your "trust me dude, you're wrong" wasn't enough to squelch the pinging of what I knew was correct, I did a bit of digging today.  The gentleman in that picture just happens to be CAP Lt Col/AF Maj (Ret) Rich Augur, yes, that Rich Augur of the RF-4, T-37, and Delta B-767 Augurs http://suptfc.com/cap-officer-staff/ltcol-rich-augur-chief-staneval.html.  Following a tour at Columbus as a Tweet IP/EP, he's been a staff member--first as a Reservist, now as a CAP officer--of ATCFC/AETCFC/SUPTFC since 1990.  Considering his extensive repeat-offender status at Columbus and his long history sporting USAF radiators, I know with certainty the (embroidered) wings he's wearing in the above picture are USAF wings, in his CAP flight suit.  Same goes for the activity commander (https://picasaweb.google.com/116954676776283933894/1301Friday#5895704104378578034).  So no, "all the 182 drivers" aren't wearing embroidered wings these days, because these guys are legit AF pilots who were gracious enough to slap on the CAP MAJCOM patch in continued service to our cadets even after they joined the check-a-month club.

It's okay, you can admit you were wrong now.  But just to show you there's no hard feelings, I'll send you a nice adult beverage of your choice if you can prove--not just claim--me wrong.  Cheers.

[ALH]

Thanks to all for the responses to my question. I'm never been inclined to wear AD insignia on CAP uniforms in the first place, but the question was an interesting one for consideration.

Are you a patch?

I am not. The fella I was discussing it with was. That being said, my application is in and I hope to be able to say "Yes, I am a patch" this time next year.

[goblin]

Noted.

[goblin]

The gentleman in that picture just happens to be CAP Lt Col/AF Maj (Ret) Rich Augur, yes, that Rich Augur of the RF-4, T-37, and Delta B-767 Augurs

Not familiar with "that" Rich Augur...is there a famous story or something that Im missing?

Ironically, I did some snooping on that site you linked and theres a series of pictures from my UPT class/flight room when we hosted SUPT-FC in 2010.

[Toad1168]

Is it any different than former C/Officers having their pips/diamonds sewn under their BDU collars/inside a pocket or something?

My diamonds are pinned in my cover! Out of view of course......

[THRAWN]

The gentleman in that picture just happens to be CAP Lt Col/AF Maj (Ret) Rich Augur, yes, that Rich Augur of the RF-4, T-37, and Delta B-767 Augurs

Not familiar with "that" Rich Augur...is there a famous story or something that Im missing?

Ironically, I did some snooping on that site you linked and theres a series of pictures from my UPT class/flight room when we hosted SUPT-FC in 2010.

There are also photos of the staff. All are wearing embroidered. What gives? Is it like NESA aircrew school where they have their own set of unis and rules?