New flag patch regulation.

[abdsp51]

Like a few others the day the regulation went live I had the stitch popper taking the Flag Patch off.  I agree with the statements above that since we are non-deployable there was no need for it on there.  We all know it was there because HWSNBN put it there during the "US Civil Air Patrol" days when he didn't want us confused with other countries having a similar program.

Interesting that a couple folks on this thread removed their flags without consulting their commander.   So much for unit uniformity.  We have advised our cadets that they should remove patches when we reach the deadline. Cadets have been advised not to affix flags to newly acquired BDUs.

I don't like BDUs that look like flower bouquets.  I think the bare minimum of patches looks the best and I frown on wear of any hat other than the BDU patrol cap.  Likewise, I dont like packs decorated with patches.

You do know that the NAT CC is the one who signed 39-1 right?  So the CC has spoken on it.  Guess what as soon as this last round of 39-1 was published all the flags on all of my BDU's and BBDU's came off right away. 

And really you're going to make people wait to remove something till the due date?  There's is no harm in removing the flag since it is now optional until 2017. 

[Damron]

I understand the regulation.

If you were a cadet in my squadron you would be sewing your patch back on.   I wouldn't even entertain a conversation on the matter.

Some things require coordination at the squadron level, this is one of them.  If after reading the new regulation your first thought was immediately removing your flag instead of thinking how your squadron should address the new policy, you have revealed interesting insights into your personality.

[PHall]

I understand the regulation.

If you were a cadet in my squadron you would be sewing your patch back on.   I wouldn't even entertain a conversation on the matter.

Some things require coordination at the squadron level, this is one of them.  If after reading the new regulation your first thought was immediately removing your flag instead of thinking how your squadron should address the new policy, you have revealed interesting insights into your personality.

By what regulation are you requiring them to wear an optional patch? You're overstepping your authority here.

[Damron]

You're "that guy".  If you think our interpretation and execution of this regulation is an abuse of authority, do what you have to do. 

If I announced that for purposes of uniformity "we" were going to continue to wear the flags on "our" uniforms and you stood up waving your copy of 39-1 and told us what "you" were going to do as a result of "your" interpretation of the regulation and shared  "your" thoughts about abuse of authority ... you've pretty much identified yourself as "that guy".  Good luck with that.

[abdsp51]

You're "that guy".  If you think our interpretation and execution of this regulation is an abuse of authority, do what you have to do. 

If I announced that for purposes of uniformity "we" were going to continue to wear the flags on "our" uniforms and you stood up waving your copy of 39-1 and told us what "you" were going to do as a result of "your" interpretation of the regulation and shared  "your" thoughts about abuse of authority ... you've pretty much identified yourself as "that guy".  Good luck with that.

And you're that guy who can't grasp that all not units are not they same therefore will not operate the same. And you're that guy who probably throws a tantrum anytime he doesn't get his way.

Bottom line a member of your unit can not wear the flag and there is pretty much nothing you can do about it. 

[Damron]

What would suggest that I would throw a tantrum over this or anything else for that matter?

Yeah, I probably wouldn't say or do anything about it.  However, time has shown me that the pedant that doesn't want to play team ball when it doesn't matter may not want to play team ball when it does matter.

Thankfully, "that guy" usually has an extensive resume of being "that guy".  It's rarely a secret, others take note.  Whenever "that guy" sees an option, he's likely to choose the option he wants, not what's best for the organization. 

Unlike many cadet squadrons, we are very active, we go on real missions, we are very active in our community.  If half my cadets exercise their option to remove their patches and we show up at a high profile event the next day looking like crap, I can thank guys like you for a vigorous defense and promotion of individual interpretation and execution of CAP policies.  That's what "that guy" does.

[abdsp51]

There is no individual interpretation.  It's in black and white the flag is an optional item not required.  Therefore optional means it's the members choice to not have it on.  And you can not make it mandatory unless you are going to foot the bill.  I can guarantee that if I was a cadet (which I am not in any capacity a cadet) in your unit and I took the flag off there is very very little you could do about and you can tell me all day long to sew back on and it wouldn't happen unless it was coming out of your own pocket.

By your own previous statements you no longer have uniformity anyway. But yeah you're "that guy" who whines and moans and makes demands when things don't go his way.  That's already clear here, not to mention usually if your making the statement about someone else it's usually a reflection on you. 

[lordmonar]

What would suggest that I would throw a tantrum over this or anything else for that matter?

Yeah, I probably wouldn't say or do anything about it.  However, time has shown me that the pedant that doesn't want to play team ball when it doesn't matter may not want to play team ball when it does matter.

Thankfully, "that guy" usually has an extensive resume of being "that guy".  It's rarely a secret, others take note.  Whenever "that guy" sees an option, he's likely to choose the option he wants, not what's best for the organization. 

Unlike many cadet squadrons, we are very active, we go on real missions, we are very active in our community.  If half my cadets exercise their option to remove their patches and we show up at a high profile event the next day looking like crap, I can thank guys like you for a vigorous defense and promotion of individual interpretation and execution of CAP policies.  That's what "that guy" does.

If uniformity is so important........why not order them all to take off the optional patch?

Your own statements show that uniformity is not all that important because those buying new BDUs did not have to put it on....ergo as the removal date approaches and as time goes by an new members join your unit.....half your cadets will show up at a high profile event looking "un-uniform" but probably not like crap.

[Damron]

Of 60+ cadets, only one is flagless.  Of 10+ senior members, one is flagless.   That's pretty uniform, as would be removal of all flags.

We provide BDU's to our cadets and most of our senior members.  We have not liked the unfaded rectangle left behind after flag removal.  It's more dramatic on older and more faded BDU's.  We hope to increase our stockpile of BDU's throughout the year to address this issue. We have a couple of high profile events this year and want to look our best.   That's one reason.  Another reason is there were rumors that removal deadline might be extended.  Beyond that, we have an interest in preventing our cadets from damaging their BDU's by improper removal. 

For the most part, our cadets don't own their BDU's, we have a bit more leverage as a result.  As the regulation doesn't provide a clear transition plan that encourages uniformity, some discretion is probably reasonable.

But that really wasn't the point of my post.  I was pointing at a certain behavior that I think is a little selfish and indicative that an individual wasn't thinking about the unit when deciding to remove flags without some unit coordination.

[abdsp51]

Still not your call to call anyone selfish or not a team player.  There are plenty of folks who are team players and again it's an optional item until the phase out date.  Which by the way unless your rumor mill is NHQ or the NUC it's rumor period.

Plenty of people can think about the unit and have removed the flag as soon as it was allowed.  You're awfully butt hurt considering you said yourself less patches is better. 

It's optional, manual says so can't make it a requirement unless you are going to foot the bill for it.  Run along now that is all...

[Garibaldi]

I can guarantee that if I was a cadet (which I am not in any capacity a cadet) in your unit and I took the flag off there is very very little you could do about and you can tell me all day long to sew back on and it wouldn't happen unless it was coming out of your own pocket.
reflection on you.

Dude.....If you came up to one of MY cadets with a sharp implement and cut something off his/her uniform, say goodbye to your CAP career. Sewing it back on would be the last thing I would "tell" you to do. And possibly the last act you would do as a CAP officer. As a cop, you should know better. As a CAP Officer, you REALLY should know better.

Never mind...I re-read this after posting. Apologies. I haven't had coffee yet and my eyes are still on my night table.

[Capt Thompson]

I'm going to somewhat agree with both sides on this, and try not to elevate the argument that has already strayed quite a bit from the OP. When the 39-1 changed, I agree there should be some unit coordination, rather than just taking the patch off right away. This was announced 3 years ahead of time, what's the rush to grab the seam ripper? I would have addressed it at the next meeting, and come up with an agreement among the staff on a date for removal.

I agree that technically as soon as the reg says you can take it off, the Squadron CC can't say anything if you do, but waiting a week and seeing what everyone else wants to do wouldn't hurt any.

On the other hand, the proper approach for uniformity would be to take them all off. If the BDU's are so worn and faded that they leave a noticeable rectangle on the shoulder, then they probably already look somewhat like crap anyway, and that's another issue that needs to be addressed.

Just my .02

[Garibaldi]

I'm going to somewhat agree with both sides on this, and try not to elevate the argument that has already strayed quite a bit from the OP. When the 39-1 changed, I agree there should be some unit coordination, rather than just taking the patch off right away. This was announced 3 years ahead of time, what's the rush to grab the seam ripper? I would have addressed it at the next meeting, and come up with an agreement among the staff on a date for removal.

I agree that technically as soon as the reg says you can take it off, the Squadron CC can't say anything if you do, but waiting a week and seeing what everyone else wants to do wouldn't hurt any.

On the other hand, the proper approach for uniformity would be to take them all off. If the BDU's are so worn and faded that they leave a noticeable rectangle on the shoulder, then they probably already look somewhat like crap anyway, and that's another issue that needs to be addressed.

Just my .02

The Wing CC has authority to set policy for his subordinate units. If he says no, then the answer is no.  We are still waiting for our CC to make a final call, but we are not issuing new flags. I still think it's kind of silly to have half with and half without. Either remove flag yes, or remove flag no. Remove flag guess so, end up looking like rag bag. /Miyagi

[NIN]

24-ish years ago, we switched from fatigues (pickle suits) to BDUs (salad suits).

The gnashing of teeth was incredible. From the "why do we have to wear camouflage?" crowd to the "OMG, the world will end if there is just ONE PERSON in formation in a DIFFERENT UNIFORM!" patrol, you could hear the grinding of internal gears from Maine to Alaska.

And you know what: discipline didn't break down. The organization didn't end right then and there (as some predicted!), and we kept on getting the business done.

The same goes for the flag patch today: You don't see people out there going "OMG, this formation isn't UNIFORM because THREE PEOPLE are wearing NCSA patches!" or similar, right?   At a certain point, there is a limit to the degree of "uniformity" you can obtain. Sure, you want all your people to be in black boots, BDUs, patrol caps, etc (yes, yes, we have corporate uniforms.. I am mostly referring to cadet formations here..)  But at that point, things start to get funky.  We don't say things like "If all of you don't have a ground team badge, none of you can wear it," right?  And nobody screams that its not "uniform." "Sorry, cadet, but you need to take off that rocketry badge. Nobody else has one in this flight, and we're uniform!"

What next? "Sorry, cadet, but female cadets in this squadron don't wear a bun. You have to chop all your hair off so you're uniform with the male cadets..." (Don't laugh, I've heard similar things come out of a cadet's mouth...)

Its not the end of western civilization when a guy in BBDUs stands in formation with people in BDUs, right?  Nobody's gonna die if someone elects NOT to sew on the flag with their new set of BDUs and then shows up to a meeting.

So far, nobody's said "boo" to me about the flag not being on my BDUs.   

So why is there a big deal with a patch?  Answer: there is not.

[Garibaldi]

24-ish years ago, we switched from fatigues (pickle suits) to BDUs (salad suits).

The gnashing of teeth was incredible. From the "why do we have to wear camouflage?" crowd to the "OMG, the world will end if there is just ONE PERSON in formation in a DIFFERENT UNIFORM!" patrol, you could hear the grinding of internal gears from Maine to Alaska.

And you know what: discipline didn't break down. The organization didn't end right then and there (as some predicted!), and we kept on getting the business done.

The same goes for the flag patch today: You don't see people out there going "OMG, this formation isn't UNIFORM because THREE PEOPLE are wearing NCSA patches!" or similar, right?   At a certain point, there is a limit to the degree of "uniformity" you can obtain. Sure, you want all your people to be in black boots, BDUs, patrol caps, etc (yes, yes, we have corporate uniforms.. I am mostly referring to cadet formations here..)  But at that point, things start to get funky.  We don't say things like "If all of you don't have a ground team badge, none of you can wear it," right?  And nobody screams that its not "uniform." "Sorry, cadet, but you need to take off that rocketry badge. Nobody else has one in this flight, and we're uniform!"

What next? "Sorry, cadet, but female cadets in this squadron don't wear a bun. You have to chop all your hair off so you're uniform with the male cadets..." (Don't laugh, I've heard similar things come out of a cadet's mouth...)

Its not the end of western civilization when a guy in BBDUs stands in formation with people in BDUs, right?  Nobody's gonna die if someone elects NOT to sew on the flag with their new set of BDUs and then shows up to a meeting.

So far, nobody's said "boo" to me about the flag not being on my BDUs.   

So why is there a big deal with a patch?  Answer: there is not.

I'm thinking along those lines as well. Uniformity meaning one uniform, or type. Of course, we can't ban all badges and patches, or the awards thereof become meaningless. Hair, too. Not every male will have his head shaved, but most will comply with the spirit of the reg if not the actual letter. Females all have different hair length, and to say that all have to cut their hair because one female opts for a short non-bunnable style is ridiculous.

[NIN]

Yet I've heard similarly ridiculous statements from people you'd think wouldn't make them.

"If one cadet doesn't have a watch, then take yours off for uniformity" (I suppose being on time is less important than all looking the same)

yet at the same time, the yahoos who will stand an proclaim these kinds of things loudly are the very same ones (not always, but often) who wear their bright orange ES hat while the rest of the squadron is in regular PCs, they show up at missions wearing a boonie hat, strap on a pistol belt (without a canteen), etc, etc, etc.

"Sauce for the goose, Mr. Saavik"

[NIN]

BTW, I spent 10 years in an Army uniform, and literally never heard anything like that, and you'd think that they'd be ALL ABOUT uniformity at points, right?

[sarmed1]

never mind........ (insert picture of patch covered back pack with "THAT GUY" tab on the front)

MK

[NIN]

Busted image, Mark.. Try again!

[PHall]

Busted image, Mark.. Try again!

Yeah, I want my "That Guy" patch!