The "Final Word" (?) on ABUs

[winterg]

It isn't always the best example because the unique position tbey are in as well as much smaller size,  but the IDF makes a single military with ground, air, and water arms function. So it is possible. But I can see open insurection when you start messing with the heritage of specific branches with long and proud histories.

[SarDragon]

FWIW, there is an increasing trend for joint training. Weather guessers, PMEL, and IIRC, some flight training is joint, and I'm sure there are others.

[Wolfhound63]

So does this mean that woodland BDU's are going to be "CAP-distinctive?"

I would just as soon go to solid OD BDU's...reminiscent of the old "pickle suits," and could not be confused with the AF or any other military service.

Is confusion why CAP put shoulder slides on the uniform coat which I've never seen before since they were introduced in the US military to be worn exclusively on shirts under the coat.

The slides are distinct but they look strange on the coat itself.

The coat should have a more elegant device.

Even the mess dress shoulder boards, or gray shoulder loops with metal rank would look better on the service coat if the air force will never give back the metal rank because they don't want military personnel to mistake CAP officers for military.

[LSThiker]

Is confusion why CAP put shoulder slides on the uniform coat which I've never seen before since they were introduced in the US military to be worn exclusively on shirts under the coat.

The slides are distinct but they look strange on the coat itself.

The coat should have a more elegant device.

There are whole threads discussing this and it has been discussed for at least a decade on internet forums.  The bottom line is, CAP used to have metal rank, USAF got mad at CAP after some mistakes in 1990s, and the rest is history.

[a2capt]

There are whole threads discussing this and it has been discussed for at least a decade on internet forums.  The bottom line is, CAP used to have metal rank, USAF got mad at CAP after some mistakes in 1990s, and the rest is history.

..and yes something happened, that's clear. But these stories themselves are somewhat hard to qualify, too. But obviously, something came into play with the ridiculous base colored insignia.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

There are whole threads discussing this and it has been discussed for at least a decade on internet forums.  The bottom line is, CAP used to have metal rank, USAF got mad at CAP after some mistakes in 1990s, and the rest is history.

..and yes something happened, that's clear. But these stories themselves are somewhat hard to qualify, too. But obviously, something came into play with the ridiculous base colored insignia.

It was a transgression at a very high level in CAP that we are still carrying the cross for.

[LSThiker]

There are whole threads discussing this and it has been discussed for at least a decade on internet forums.  The bottom line is, CAP used to have metal rank, USAF got mad at CAP after some mistakes in 1990s, and the rest is history.

..and yes something happened, that's clear. But these stories themselves are somewhat hard to qualify, too. But obviously, something came into play with the ridiculous base colored insignia.

True, it is difficult to separate rumor from truth after so many years.  Has any one ever asked?  I mean, ask the people that were involved and not a "I heard from someone that said he was there".  Does any know if the CAP-USAF commander and/or the National CC are still alive?  Perhaps an interesting oral history project.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

There are whole threads discussing this and it has been discussed for at least a decade on internet forums.  The bottom line is, CAP used to have metal rank, USAF got mad at CAP after some mistakes in 1990s, and the rest is history.

..and yes something happened, that's clear. But these stories themselves are somewhat hard to qualify, too. But obviously, something came into play with the ridiculous base colored insignia.

True, it is difficult to separate rumor from truth after so many years.  Has any one ever asked?  I mean, ask the people that were involved and not a "I heard from someone that said he was there".  Does any know if the CAP-USAF commander and/or the National CC are still alive?  Perhaps an interesting oral history project.

The National Commander in question is still living, I think.

Do a search on both CT and your favourite search engine on "Harwell self-promotion," and you will find almost overkill information and opinion.

[JK657]

There are whole threads discussing this and it has been discussed for at least a decade on internet forums.  The bottom line is, CAP used to have metal rank, USAF got mad at CAP after some mistakes in 1990s, and the rest is history.

..and yes something happened, that's clear. But these stories themselves are somewhat hard to qualify, too. But obviously, something came into play with the ridiculous base colored insignia.

True, it is difficult to separate rumor from truth after so many years.  Has any one ever asked?  I mean, ask the people that were involved and not a "I heard from someone that said he was there".  Does any know if the CAP-USAF commander and/or the National CC are still alive?  Perhaps an interesting oral history project.

The National Commander in question is still living, I think.

Do a search on both CT and your favourite search engine on "Harwell self-promotion," and you will find almost overkill information and opinion.

I used my favorite search engine as you recommended. I found only one link and that was to a CT discussion in which the OP attempted to dispel the rumor that the Harwell incident was related to the maroon epaulettes

[a2capt]

https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Acaptalk.net+Harwell ..
But open a new thread to dive into that.

[Ratatouille]

Makes sense (for once).  Why don't they start the necessary preliminary paperwork, so that when that single utility uniform is introduced we can immediately jump on board?  Always being 2-5 years behind the curve seems unnecessary.

Not going to happen, and even if it did, it would be impossible to enforce. Let's say such an agreement was made, it is now Winter 2020, at least one new President, at least 2 SecDefs, 2+ SecAFs, a bunch of CSAF's, etc, etc:

DOD Lawyer, who knows nothing about CAP: Congrats Mr. CEO of UniCorp, after $50 mil in research, we have picked your DigiKewl pattern for all branches. Here is $100 mil for an exclusive license for your patents, allowing DOD to make uniforms for any member of the USAF, USA, USN, USMC, USCG, Guards, NOAA, and PHS. Remember, the license is exclusive and DigiKewl includes all those Top Secret IR fibers, so no selling this to anyone but us!

CEO: Cachink! You picked the least effective pattern, but I got _paid_, so I don't care!

[Contract paperwork goes through 50 layers of approval at DOD, Congress, etc, etc.]

2002, another CAP/CC later, maybe a SecDef, etc, etc:
CAP/CC: Hi Col CAP-USAF/CC, can we get the Digitals now?

CAP-USAF: Um, I'll check, I guess. *rings up Pentagon 6 months later*

Pentagon: I'll check, I guess. (To DOD Lawyer): Hey, can you check on this?

Lawyer (after waiting a month to get a copy of the contract): Well, the contract makes no mention of CAP, so we can't give them uniforms without violating the contract and getting sued for $100 million.

Pentagon: Sorry CAP-USAF, not going to happen.

CAP-USAF: Sorry CAP/CC, not going to happen, the contract doesn't allow to give uniforms to anyone except [uniformed services per the US Code]

CAP/CC: But I can totally buy the Digitals from Joe's House of Military Knockoffs, or my cousin who works in Supply at McGuire!

CAP-USAF: Well, the regs say they have to be USAF certified to be worn by CAP, so no go on the Knockoffs, as for your cousin, hold on while I call my buddy over at OSI about that.

CAP/CC: How about a waiver or something?

CAP-USAF: Fine, I'll ask. *calls Pentagon*

Pentagon: Lawyer, check up on this!

Lawyer: Um, that would require re-negotiating the contract. It will take months of negotiations, and will need to be approved by 50 levels of approval. And all our negotiators are busy negotiating for the X-45 Super Duper Strike Eagle Super Attack Fighter-Bomber, so CAP can GTFO.

Pentagon: CAP-USAF, you can tell CAP to GTFO with their "Digitals".
[End scene]

[MIKE]

From what I have seen... the Army is considering camos other than MultiCam/OCP... because they don't want to pay the $24.8 million in licensing fees to Crye.  The Army already owns the rights to MultiCam's predecessor pattern which they are considering modifying... Or using MARPAT or AOR patterns, or a combination of same.

[Eclipse]

A couple of things.

Every piece of clothing, equipment, and service for the military and every government agency
end-to-end should be manufactured by an American company within CONUS.

It's ludicrous that a company can copyright a camo pattern.  That alone should be enough to disqualify the vendor.

If the DOD, or anyone else, says "no CCU for you", then our Leaders should say "Thank you we will
pursue other options for our members to insure a commercially available pattern is inexpensively accessible to all the members."

And then...

Move.

On.

CAP has absolutely no mission-served use for camouflage in any flavor.  None.  In fact it is a determent and safety issue
in the field, and divisive in the barracks.

Anything else is affectation or affinity, which should not be the prime motivators of the selection of a uniform.

[GroundHawg]

You know I can't visit an ABU thread without suggesting my one uniform for all suggestion...

I have incorporated this into my nightly prayers.

[NIN]

Anything else is affectation or affinity, which should not be the prime motivators of the selection of a uniform.

Except that pesky Air Force affiliation...

[Storm Chaser]

Anything else is affectation or affinity, which should not be the prime motivators of the selection of a uniform.

Except that pesky Air Force affiliation...

We don't have to wear an Air Force uniform to be affiliated to the Air Force. In fact, nearly half (?) of our membership don't. And of those who do, half (or more) of the times they're wearing a uniform that hasn't been worn by the Air Force in years.

Since many of our active and contributing members can't wear the Air Force-style uniform under current regulations, the only reasonable courses of action are:

          a. For the Air Force to relax their weight and grooming standards for CAP members, or;
          b. For CAP to come up with a professional looking corporate uniform that can meet both our operational and organizational needs.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Since many of our active and contributing members can't wear the Air Force-style uniform under current regulations, the only reasonable courses of action are:

          a. For the Air Force to relax their weight and grooming standards for CAP members, or;
          b. For CAP to come up with a professional looking corporate uniform that can meet both our operational and organizational needs.

a.  And pigs might fly outta my....
b.  We've been told we have one: the blazer kit.  We just need to keep repeating it to ourselves until all the membership of CAP truly believes it.

[Storm Chaser]

b.  We've been told we have one: the blazer kit.  We just need to keep repeating it to ourselves until all the membership of CAP truly believes it.

I meant a SINGLE corporate uniform for ALL members. The blazer is not it unless it replaces the service dress uniform for everyone.

[Spaceman3750]

b.  We've been told we have one: the blazer kit.  We just need to keep repeating it to ourselves until all the membership of CAP truly believes it.

I meant a SINGLE corporate uniform for ALL members. The blazer is not it unless it replaces the service dress uniform for everyone.

I understand the desire for uniformity, but this argument sounds more and more like "I can't have it so nobody can" (AF uniform) every time I hear it. And that's coming from a guy that's required to wear corporates.

[Panache]

Pentagon: CAP-USAF, you can tell CAP to GTFO with their "Digitals".
[End scene]

Yeah, but they forgot to get Skynet's input on this.