The "Final Word" (?) on ABUs

[PHall]

One solution for all does not fit every time. I remember the F-111. While I have never been in the service so I all I can say about this is more like what I read, this was supposed to be used by both the Air Force and the Navy. After this airplane was accepted, it was found the modifications needed by the Navy increased the cost beyond initial projections, and eventually it was not deployed in aircraft carriers. For instance, landing gear had to be strengthened for carrier ops, and there were other problems with other structural components as well. I do not recall exactly... Can someone closer to this aircraft remind us what were the problems?

Flyer

The F-111 turned out to be a pretty sucessful long range strike aircraft. It could do Mach 1.5 at 500 feet AGL in any weather.
The development of the Navy F-111B model did have some good. For example, the longer wings and heavy duty landing gear ended up being used on the FB-111A Medium Bomber used by SAC (redesignated F-111G in later years.).
The main problems with the F-111's was the TF-30 turbofan engines which were also used on the F-14A.
There was a series of engine intake redesigns in an attempt to solve this engines airflow problems.
There was also problems with the early avionics systems which were mostly fixed when technology finally caught up to what the designers wanted.

[Shuman 14]

Seems to me that the easiest thing to do would just be to request blanket approval for CAP to begin wear of whatever BUD-equivalent approved by the Air Force starting two years after the AF starts wearing it along with a blanket statement saying that the BDU would be phased out 5 years after CAP begins wearing the replacement.   Needs some wordsmithing, but it would solve the situation.  Not a big fan of even waiting 2 years for CAP to begin wearing the new uniform but they always claim supply shortages....

Concur, a reasonable and logical approach.

[LSThiker]

Really?

Now we're talking economy of scale, and storage costs.

You can't magically spit out uniforms on short notice. There's always lead time involved. If you try to produce ahead of time, how many do you make? What size distributions? Producing for the entire service is cheaper than for a smaller segment. Once produced, where do you store them until they are needed? Maybe a basic economics refresher is in order.

I said, produce when needed.  Will there be a lag time, sure of course.  However, we should be spending money on developing proper patterns now rather trying to find a universal pattern.  Do you know why we went to the Persian Gulf War wearing a uniform designed in 1962?  When there is a will (aka money) there is a way.  The US designed the P-51 in 1940 with the first prototype built 102 after the contract was signed.  We introduced it in combat in 1942. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

So does this mean that woodland BDU's are going to be "CAP-distinctive?"

I would just as soon go to solid OD BDU's...reminiscent of the old "pickle suits," and could not be confused with the AF or any other military service.

[LSThiker]

So does this mean that woodland BDU's are going to be "CAP-distinctive?"

I would just as soon go to solid OD BDU's...reminiscent of the old "pickle suits," and could not be confused with the AF or any other military service.

I doubt the USAF will, at least in the short-term future, ever allow us to call BDUs "CAP-distinctive".  But who knows?

[Panache]

When it comes down to it, the only reason I believe we have multiple branches of military still is ego.  I wonder what (if any) the cost savings would be with only one US military service instead of separate branches like we have now. 

The Civil Air Patrol: The United States Army Air Force Naval Marine Guard Auxiliary.

I would just as soon go to solid OD BDU's...reminiscent of the old "pickle suits," and could not be confused with the AF or any other military service.

Ugh, I sincerely hope not.  I hated wearing those when I was a cadet.

[Al Sayre]

It would make economic sense to go to a common "field uniform" for personnel not actually engaged in combat action.  Then have say half a dozen different camoflauge schemes for personnel deployed to specific areas.  Joe the Cook or the Motor Pool Sgt at Somewhere Base in the U.S. really have no need for camo, but do have a need for a working uniform besides the service uniform or their organizational issue (cooks whites or coveralls).  That would be where a common uniform cost savings would be recognized.  Pickle suits for everyone!

[LSThiker]

When it comes down to it, the only reason I believe we have multiple branches of military still is ego.  I wonder what (if any) the cost savings would be with only one US military service instead of separate branches like we have now. 

The medical departments from across the DoD have already done the analysis on this.  It was determined a long time ago that having a single medical department would be cost saving.  That is, one base, one training school, one curriculum, etc.  Then each department would have its own specific training requirements (i.e. naval medicine, aeromedicine, NBC, etc).  It has been known as going purple.  Obviously it has not been fully implemented, but it usually gets brought up a few times a year.  In some cases, we have already seen some movement towards it at Ft Sam Houston.  It makes sense as do we really need three schools teaching EMT skills, teaching LPN tasks, laboratory tasks?  No.  So for the areas that are different, teach those separately. 

[NIN]

BTW, for the conspiracy theorists out there:

The ABU proposal that was shown last year was what went forward from CAP (via the uniform committee) thru CAP-USAF to the Air Staff over a year ago (I believe). Call it "what CAP & CAP-USAF wanted".  And it has been there ever since, pending in front of the Air Staff, awaiting changes to the DoD logistics memo or whatever.

In the interim, as we all know, the services have been directed to move to a common/joint uniform.

As the likelihood of that becomes higher, the need to move to what will be a dead end uniform becomes lower.

Its as simple as that.

(I really wish they'd settle on the rough-out tan boots.. I have 3 pr..)

[NIN]

Nin, do not throw that out yet...

I spent $30 on 3 pairs of trousers (new with tags) and a shirt.  I'm not out a bunch at the moment and it doesn't hurt to leave them hanging in my wall locker.

[NIN]

Seems to me that the easiest thing to do would just be to request blanket approval for CAP to begin wear of whatever BUD-equivalent approved by the Air Force starting two years after the AF starts wearing it along with a blanket statement saying that the BDU would be phased out 5 years after CAP begins wearing the replacement.   Needs some wordsmithing, but it would solve the situation.  Not a big fan of even waiting 2 years for CAP to begin wearing the new uniform but they always claim supply shortages....

Concur, a reasonable and logical approach.

If CAP's uniform manual was actually a supplement to the USAF instruction (ie. "The USAF utility uniform is modified as follows..") then it might be easier. 

But HAF would have to be on board with whatever changes they made to the AFI being an immediate trickle to CAP (with appropriate adjustments to wearout dates, phase ins, etc), especially if they wrote CAP into the instruction.

[NIN]

The only thing that does not "solve" is that BDUs are simply not as plentiful for free as they once were.

Sure, everyone has to buy their stuff sometime, but it was good while we were using the same thing as the Air Force, so getting them was a lot more flexible. 

As for "waiting to see what they come up with", I see that happening .. two and a half "national commanders from now".

FTFY.

Lets face it:  It is NICE to equip your people with utility uniforms from "free" stashes that came from units/bases/DRMO.

Like the FCU program, however, its never been a guaranteed thing.

And the fact remains that it is the member's ultimate responsibility (not the unit, the wing, or CAP as a whole) to equip him or herself with the correct uniform.

BITD (it was a Tuesday that year), I bought short-sleeve blues (cap, shirt, belt, trousers & shoes) and fatigues (cap, shirt, trousers and combat boots) for $120* at AAFES.  There was no "squadron issue" of those uniforms. My unit had a stash of field jackets with velcro over the nametape area, but that was it for "unit issue."  It was understood that you bought your first set of uniforms.

(* Yes, $120! My parents gave me a blank check to take to the Clothing Sales Store at the base.  I had NO idea how to write out a check at 14. LOL.)

[Майор Хаткевич]

I had NO idea how to write out a check at 14. LOL.)

What's a check? Is it that booklet my bank gave me to use for a few days while my Debit card was mailed to me? Interesting story, had my Debit damaged due to some wallet damage. Took it to chase...they printed a new one AT THE BRANCH.

[Storm Chaser]

(* Yes, $120! My parents gave me a blank check to take to the Clothing Sales Store at the base.  I had NO idea how to write out a check at 14. LOL.)

$120!? Your parents must've been rich. BITD, all my initial uniforms were used, including the green OD fatigues and blue service uniform. I got lucky and my squadron had some to give me. I did had to buy others, as I grew older, as well as all the required insignias.

[a2capt]

Actually, no, I left the "for free" part out of my statement. With BDUs being a current uniform item, there is a hearty marketplace and competition for them to be made to the spec.

That means that you have a reasonable expectation of what you are getting and how it will perform, as opposed to the varied shades, construction quality and durability of crap like Rothco BBDUs. Of course, you get what you pay for, but you have options. The options now are fewer than they would be if we had moved to the current uniform option of the Air Force.

That strong demand has largely gone away. With BDUs probably having less draw than BSA uniform items .. and I don't know what others see in their parts, but I still have yet to see a squared away, sharp looking BSA uniform. Just leaving out the who part about prepping it, they look -awful- from a quality and construction angle.

[Eclipse]

Actually, I have to disagree on the BSA uniforms, if you buy the proper parts they look good, though
sewing on the wick-away fabric of the summer shirt is a challenge.

One issue I've seen in my son's troop is parents just go and buy "green' pants instead of the actual BSA pants, etc,
because of cost, and most leaders don't say anything.

Also, the gluing of patches makes my eyes water with both pain and sadness.

[Stonewall]

You know I can't visit an ABU thread without suggesting my one uniform for all suggestion...

[NIN]

$120!? Your parents must've been rich. BITD, all my initial uniforms were used, including the green OD fatigues and blue service uniform. I got lucky and my squadron had some to give me. I did had to buy others, as I grew older, as well as all the required insignias.

Ha! Yeah, what I didn't know.

But then, encampment cost $45 for a week, too.

[HGjunkie]

Just put everyone in zoom bags and be done with it already. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I wonder what (if any) the cost savings would be with only one US military service instead of separate branches like we have now.

Canada tried that in 1968...the Canadian Army, Royal Canadian Navy and Royal Canadian Air Force were all merged into one service, the "Canadian Armed Forces," all wearing the same green uniform.  The RCAF and RCN lost their distinctive British-derived ranks (Squadron Leader, Lieutenant-Commander) and all adopted army rank.



The only way you could tell which "element" one belonged to was by cap and collar badges.

You had colonels commanding naval vessels, and former RCAF groundcrew had to go to sea to fix "naval" helicopters. 

Morale went into the toilet and several very high-ranking officers retired, went to other Commonwealth countries...or were fired for speaking out against unification, most notable being Admiral William Landymore.



Over the years unification was gradually undone.  Now there are separate services again, with distinctive uniforms.



The RCN got its ranks back and the Army got its "pips and crowns" back.  The RCAF will probably follow suit and again there will be flight sergeants, pilot officers and group captains.

Some benefits came from unification...like a common basic training system at one location.

Can you imagine if we tried that here, especially with the Marines?!

I have thought that there is too much duplication with our services.  Examples:

Why do the Marines need their own "air force?"  They're considered Naval Aviators and could fly in Navy squadrons doing the exact same missions they do now.

Why is there both an Air Force Reserve and an Air National Guard?  WIWANG, we often joked about why a State Governor needed a wing of F-16's.

Why does each branch have to have its own "special forces?"  There could be one, integrated force with troops from all five services (indeed, Canada does that with its Joint Task Force 2).

Why do there have to be separate service academies?  Officers could have a common training system and go to their chosen services once graduated.

And then there is all the varying administrivia generated by five different services...