Wearing of obsolete C.A.P. ribbons?

[hhbooker2]

Greetings & Salutations! Saw a person in a Civil Air Patrol uniform wearing what appeared to be obsolete C.A.P. ribbons which I recognized as most were replaced with different designs. The ones with small embroider propellers was well made and there was an old Civil Defense ribbon with a grey metal attachment with CD in the center. Maybe they do not authorize the wearing of ribbons no longer issued? There is a website or was one last time I was there with ribbons of all the branches of the U.S. and foreign armed forces as well as national guard, USCGAux, USPHS, C.A.P., etc., Eric Menelder I believe was the name of the website owner? Guess the one place you can get such older ribbons is on eBay Auctions? Thanks, looking forward to your responses. Respectfully, Herbert Booker

[Storm Chaser]

CAPM 39-1 does allow for members to wear CAP ribbons previously earned even if they have been discontinued. Some discontinued ribbons that are authorized for wear are:

• Coastal Patrol Ribbon
• Liaison Patrol Ribbon
• Tow-Target & Tracking Ribbon
• Courier Ribbon
• Forest Patrol Ribbon
• Missing Aircraft Ribbon
• National Commander's Citation
• Falcon Award

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

I don't think that means you can wear the old version of a current ribbon. (The Wright Bros. with the Wright Flyer on it for example)

[Eclipse]

I don't think that means you can wear the old version of a current ribbon. (The Wright Bros. with the Wright Flyer on it for example)

I agree - obsolete ribbons you earned from the list above would still be allowed, but those that have been replaced with something new should use the updated version.

[ol'fido]

Add the Certificate of proficiency to that list.

I actually own a few of the old style ribbons(would love to open a box and find my old ribbon rack) that I would like to use to put on a historic uniform and wear at an airshow as a recruiting tool.

[hhbooker2]

Ol'Fido: I can remember that many of the C.A.P. Cadets wore plastic covered ribbons to prevent them from being soiled. Seems the R.O.T.C. also wore plastic covered ribbons back in the early 1950s? Makes sense the replacement ribbons would be used instead, of course if you went in period costume, no one would disapprove? When I served in the Center for Military History in the California State Military Reserve (1979-85), we wore uniforms from 1849 to 1945, it was called "Living History!" I wonder if the Confederate Air Force in Arlington, Texas wear WW2 uniforms and then issued ribbons? Wolf-Brown had a great C.A.P. ribbon chart in the 1960s. 

[GroundHawg]

We have a SM who still wears the IACE ribbon with the propellers on it from when he went as a cadet back in the 70s. Im not sure of its kosherness, but it looks cool as hell.

[Storm Chaser]

Unless it was specifically prohibited by regs, I wouldn't make a big deal about someone wearing the original award or ribbon earned, even if the design changed over the years. There are worst uniform infractions to worry about.

[Ned]

We have a SM who still wears the IACE ribbon with the propellers on it from when he went as a cadet back in the 70s. Im not sure of its kosherness, but it looks cool as hell.

I still wear my original IACE ribbon I received in 1975.  I have the orders that awarded it to me; the award has never been rescinded.  The fact that later awardees received a somewhat simplified ribbon does not indicate to me that I am somehow violating regulations by wearing the ribbon the wing commander handed me.

Come to think of it, I still have my enameled metal Falcon "ribbon".  Maybe I'll dig that out . . .

[BillB]

Don't see why you can't wear the Falcon it was awarded when the Spaatz holder turned senior. Ned did you ever turn senior?

[LGM30GMCC]

I think everyone who was a Spaatz cadet when the Falcon Award was being awarded has turned senior by now, whether they remained or have rejoined as a member is a completely different question...

[RiverAux]

Do the regs say that discontinued versions of still active ribbons cannot be worn? 

[Eclipse]

Do the regs say that discontinued versions of still active ribbons cannot be worn?

Yes.

a. The CAP decorations, ribbons and badges described herein and wartime service ribbons
awarded during the period February 1942-July 1945 may be worn on the CAP uniform in accordance
with CAPM 39-1, Civil Air Patrol Uniform Manual. Other CAP decorations, ribbons and badges
previously authorized, but not described in this regulation will not be worn.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Eclipse-

Rather than quote CAPM 39-1 on this issue, I would rather quote CAPR 39-3.
It says:

3. Decorations, Ribbons and Awards That May Be Worn on the CAP Uniform.
a. The CAP decorations, ribbons and badges described herein and wartime service ribbons awarded during the period February 1942-July 1945 may be worn on the CAP uniform in accordance with CAPM 39-1, Civil Air Patrol Uniform Manual. Other CAP decorations, ribbons and badges previously authorized, but not described in this regulation will not be worn.

39-1 does not describe ribbons, it describes position, those authorized, and discontinued ribbons instead.

The issue at present is whether a ribbon was purple before, and now is rainbow-colored, you could still wear the purple version. This is prohibited by 39-3, since it describes and pictures them.

:angel:

So, if anyone is wearing the propeller ribbons, the plastic ribbons, or metallic ribbons, they have chosen to ignore a CAPR...



Flyer

[Eclipse]

Um, you realize I did quote 39-3 and posted the same exact paragraph?

The Falcon, BTW, is still explicitly authorized.

[Luis R. Ramos]

 

I guess I did not read it completely, my apologies. You did not put "39-3," so I misread it that you took it from 39-1.



[Does it look better now...?]

Flyer

[Ned]

a. The CAP decorations, ribbons and badges described herein and wartime service ribbons
awarded during the period February 1942-July 1945 may be worn on the CAP uniform in accordance
with CAPM 39-1, Civil Air Patrol Uniform Manual. Other CAP decorations, ribbons and badges
previously authorized, but not described in this regulation will not be worn.

Non-concur.

The bolded portion forbids the wearing of obsolete ("previously authorized") decorations, ribbons, and badges "not described in this regulation."  This applies to things like the old cap badges, breast plates, and the greatly-missed cadet Leadership Shoulder Insignia:


(From the Smithsonian's Air and Space Collection.  I always wanted to be an Academic Sergeant!)



In contrast,the IACE Ribbon is an Activity Ribbon clearly described in CAPR 39-3, paragraph 20 a, and accordingly is not a ribbon "previously authorized, but not described in this regulation."

Accordingly, there is nothing that requires a member to remove an older version of a current decoration.

[RiverAux]

Ah, but we're back to the old issue of 39-1 being the only regulation that matters in regards to what is worn on the uniform.....

Leaving that aside for the moment, I'd say that they need to clarify that a bit if they don't want old versions of currently authorized ribbons to be worn. 

As to "described" as brought up by Ned, Attachment 3 pictures all the ribbons and medals and is titled, "Description of CAP Medals and Ribbons", so one could say that if they aren't pictured, "i.e., described" in Attachment 3, then they're not authorized. 

[Eclipse]

Riveraux beat me...

[jimmydeanno]

Could've sworn there was a "until such time the award needs remounting" caveat somewhere in 39-1.  Might have been the previous version.