CAPM 39-1's Issues

[Airman De Ruiter]

Is it just me or is 39-1 just overall poorly written and half-assed? I would type up a list of the all the fallacies, but I'm afraid the CAP Talk servers wouldn't be able to handle all of that data in one post. Is 39-1 like the abridged edition of the uniform manual. If something's not covered in the manual and everyone in your CoC is clueless as to what the proper way to do something is, then what are you to do? Consult the operational Air Force's uniform manual?

[SJFedor]

Is it just me or is 39-1 just overall poorly written and half-assed? I would type up a list of the all the fallacies, but I'm afraid the CAP Talk servers wouldn't be able to handle all of that data in one post. Is 39-1 like the abridged edition of the uniform manual. If something's not covered in the manual and everyone in your CoC is clueless as to what the proper way to do something is, then what are you to do? Consult the operational Air Force's uniform manual?

Your signature line says it all.

Search function will help you with this topic, which is one of the all time deceased equines being repeatedly struck with a blunt object.

[SarDragon]

That said, yes, most of the CT members, and many CAP members in general are painfully aware of the deficiencies in CAPM 39-1. We even have a member of the Uniform Committee posting on here to keep us abreast of the latest events.

It's a huge complicated issue, with no easy answers. Be patient, make sure you've read all the ICLs, too, and wait for things to be worked. That's about all you can do.

[Airman De Ruiter]

I'm rather new, how does one ICL?

[SarDragon]

New, as a Cadet Captain? Or are you deceiving us a bit with your sig? 

ICL = Interim Change Letter. If you go to the Publications page on the NHQ site, and click the Interim Change Letters item, you'll see them. Those, along with the 39-1, will give you the latest info on uniforms.

[Airman De Ruiter]

Thanks, that's going to come in handy soon(I'm the unit designated "reg nazi" because I ensure that people follow regs to the "T" and I always carry the necessary citation on me.).

And no, I'm not an officer, I'm new to CAP. I just thought C/Capt Obvious was funny. Apparently not.

[MIKE]

And no, I'm not an officer, I'm new to CAP. I just thought C/Capt Obvious was funny. Apparently not.

Suggest you read the Membership Code of Conduct in Announcements.

[NIN]

Thanks, that's going to come in handy soon(I'm the unit designated "reg nazi" because I ensure that people follow regs to the "T" and I always carry the necessary citation on me.).

And no, I'm not an officer, I'm new to CAP. I just thought C/Capt Obvious was funny. Apparently not.

Unsolicited advice from some guy on the Internet:

Be careful playing "reg nazi" and "new guy" at the same time, and especially around uniforms.

You presently can read black and white just fine, I'm sure, but the statement "what is an ICL" tells me you don't have the experience to find where all the (well uniformed) skeletons are buried in 39-1.   There are many of us who have been around for a LONG time who still get tripped up by a poorly written and edited regulation and/or manual.  And conflicting ICLs, National Board decisions, unpublished rules, the CAP Knowledgebase, and some random individual's reading of the "commander's intent" from three national commanders ago.

Then you add in all the cultural uniform biases that we carry to the table (Guy A: "In the Navy, we wear our ribbons no matter what" Guy B: "In the AF, it is customary for officers to not wear ribbons on the shirt" Guy C: "Can I wear this on my Class A's?"  Guys A&B in unison: "Shut up, Army Guy!") and uniforms are a minefield for the experienced.  They're certain death for a new guy.

Tread lightly until you can wear yours 100% of the time correctly.

[Private Investigator]

LMAO   

[Airman De Ruiter]

Thanks, that's going to come in handy soon(I'm the unit designated "reg nazi" because I ensure that people follow regs to the "T" and I always carry the necessary citation on me.).

And no, I'm not an officer, I'm new to CAP. I just thought C/Capt Obvious was funny. Apparently not.

Unsolicited advice from some guy on the Internet:

Be careful playing "reg nazi" and "new guy" at the same time, and especially around uniforms.

You presently can read black and white just fine, I'm sure, but the statement "what is an ICL" tells me you don't have the experience to find where all the (well uniformed) skeletons are buried in 39-1.   There are many of us who have been around for a LONG time who still get tripped up by a poorly written and edited regulation and/or manual.  And conflicting ICLs, National Board decisions, unpublished rules, the CAP Knowledgebase, and some random individual's reading of the "commander's intent" from three national commanders ago.

Then you add in all the cultural uniform biases that we carry to the table (Guy A: "In the Navy, we wear our ribbons no matter what" Guy B: "In the AF, it is customary for officers to not wear ribbons on the shirt" Guy C: "Can I wear this on my Class A's?"  Guys A&B in unison: "Shut up, Army Guy!") and uniforms are a minefield for the experienced.  They're certain death for a new guy.

Tread lightly until you can wear yours 100% of the time correctly.

I know that my uniform is proper at all times, I may be new to CAP, but I've been wearing Air Force Blues for a minute, now. I don't crack down unless I know for a fact that I know the reg well enough to recite it so no false calls on my part, hopefully. I usually call the common sense stuff i.e. hair, creases, shoe shine/type, colored bracelet, device placement. You know, the stuff no one has time to do right. <--- Sarcasm

[Patterson]

^ Man, we need more members just like you.....

[Eclipse]

I know that my uniform is proper at all times, I may be new to CAP, but I've been wearing Air Force Blues for a minute, now. I don't crack down unless I know for a fact that I know the reg well enough to recite it so no false calls on my part, hopefully. I usually call the common sense stuff i.e. hair, creases, shoe shine/type, colored bracelet, device placement. You know, the stuff no one has time to do right. <--- Sarcasm

Considering that there are field grade USAF officers who regularly need assistance with their uniforms, a CAP Cadet Airman who, until this thread did not know what an ICL was, should not be quite so confident about whether or not he's doing things "right".

[Airman De Ruiter]

Let's just say I'm a little old school, when it comes to my uniform. I don't get much sleep the day before I wear my uniform because of all the squaring away. As in 3 1/2 hours shining boots for BDU's and 4 on the boots for my blues. I am rather certain that I am SAT.

[Eclipse]

Let's just say I'm a little old school, when it comes to my uniform. I don't get much sleep the day before I wear my uniform because of all the squaring away. As in 3 1/2 hours shining boots for BDU's and 4 on the boots for my blues. I am rather certain that I am SAT.

If you're spending more then a few minutes shining your boots, you're doing it wrong.

[Airman De Ruiter]

Well, I disagree with you there. I think that if you can tell the difference between my boots and Corfams, then I'm doing it wrong. I find a deep sense of responsibility when representing CAP, USAF, and the Armed Forces as a whole.

[JayT]

Well, I disagree with you there. I think that if you can tell the difference between my boots and Corfams, then I'm doing it wrong. I find a deep sense of responsibility when representing CAP, USAF, and the Armed Forces as a whole.

Nonsense. Spit shined boots are low on the list of priorities. I'll give you a hint, tell me how many branches of the military are still wearing smooth leather boots.

[Eclipse]

Well, I disagree with you there. I think that if you can tell the difference between my boots and Corfams, then I'm doing it wrong. I find a deep sense of responsibility when representing CAP, USAF, and the Armed Forces as a whole.

Mirror-shiny boots have nothing to do with "representing the Air Force", or anyone else for that matter, bearing and attitude say a lot more.

Just as a note, except in a few select areas, the USAF no longer wears black, shine-able boots.

[Airman De Ruiter]

Well, I disagree with you there. I think that if you can tell the difference between my boots and Corfams, then I'm doing it wrong. I find a deep sense of responsibility when representing CAP, USAF, and the Armed Forces as a whole.

Nonsense. Spit shined boots are low on the list of priorities. I'll give you a hint, tell me how many branches of the military are still wearing smooth leather boots.

4

[JayT]

Well, I disagree with you there. I think that if you can tell the difference between my boots and Corfams, then I'm doing it wrong. I find a deep sense of responsibility when representing CAP, USAF, and the Armed Forces as a whole.

Nonsense. Spit shined boots are low on the list of priorities. I'll give you a hint, tell me how many branches of the military are still wearing smooth leather boots.

4

Which ones?

US Army: Tan rough out boots (my partner his currently wearing his as his duty boots are in for repair.)
US Marines: Brown rough out boots.
USAF: Green rough out boots.

[Eclipse]

The Navy NWU is black rough out (which I'm assuming means suede?).

[Sapper168]

Well, I disagree with you there. I think that if you can tell the difference between my boots and Corfams, then I'm doing it wrong. I find a deep sense of responsibility when representing CAP, USAF, and the Armed Forces as a whole.

Mirror-shiny boots have nothing to do with "representing the Air Force", or anyone else for that matter, bearing and attitude say a lot more.

Just as a note, except in a few select areas, the USAF no longer wears black, shine-able boots.

Not with field or basic duty uniforms at any rate. 

[NIN]

Let's just say I'm a little old school, when it comes to my uniform. I don't get much sleep the day before I wear my uniform because of all the squaring away. As in 3 1/2 hours shining boots for BDU's and 4 on the boots for my blues. I am rather certain that I am SAT.

If you're spending more then a few minutes shining your boots, you're doing it wrong.

I was lamenting just the other day as I was moving my Corcorans in the closet that "I don't ever get a chance to spitshine anymore.."

Then I laughed at myself.

[SarDragon]

Popcorn, anyone?

[Airman De Ruiter]

USGC-Black smooth leather
U.S. Air Force- Black Smooth Leather with dress uniforms
U.S. Army-Black Smooth leather(common among paras)
U.S. Navy-Black Smooth leather with NWU

[Майор Хаткевич]

I used to shine my boots 1-2 hours while watching Band of Brothers. I've even shined Eclipse's boots once or twice (volunteered, no hazing involved).

Now that I'm a SM? I run a cloth over them, they look black and clean. I call it a day and off I go to the meeting. I've yet to bust a cadet for not having shiny shoes. If they are CLEAN, then I move onto their uniforms. If the uniform is clean, everything is placed properly, then I tell them good job, and move onto some other important task that actually matters.

[Майор Хаткевич]

USGC-Black smooth leather
U.S. Air Force- Black Smooth Leather with dress uniforms
U.S. Army-Black Smooth leather(common among paras)
U.S. Navy-Black Smooth leather with NWU

Yea...no.

[VNY]

The Navy NWU is black rough out (which I'm assuming means suede?).

CAP should adopt a blue version of that to be distinctive.

Just don't step on them.

[Airman De Ruiter]

The Navy NWU is black rough out (which I'm assuming means suede?).

I sure as hell don't wear rough outs with my NWU's.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Sea Cadet?

[Eclipse]

The Navy NWU is black rough out (which I'm assuming means suede?).

I sure as hell don't wear rough outs with my NWU's.

The NWU allows for an optional "no shine boot" - (i.e. suede).  By far the majority of those I see in NWU's are wearing that option.

We are all now curious why you have both NWUs and ABUs in addition to CAP uniforms.

[Devil Doc]

Spending hours Shining shoes? Really? Last time i did that was in  bootcamp, or before I had corframs. Plus it really does not take 2-3 hours to mirror your shoes. Trust me, give me 30 Mintues and both shoes will be a mirror gloss. Unless your on the Color Guard, Inspection, Honor Guard etc, you do not have to have mirror shined shoes. I suggest have 2 to 3 pairs. Inspection Pair, Normal Pair, etc. I understand you take pride in your uniforms I do, but mirror shine is not neccesary. 

[JayT]

Disregard.

[Airman De Ruiter]

The Navy NWU is black rough out (which I'm assuming means suede?).

I sure as hell don't wear rough outs with my NWU's.

The NWU allows for an optional "no shine boot" - (i.e. suede).  By far the majority of those I see in NWU's are wearing that option.

We are all now curious why you have both NWUs and ABUs in addition to CAP uniforms.

I'm an AFJROTC Cadet, Navy S.C.C. Cadet, CAP Cadet, and former NJROTC Cadet. I'm kind of into the whole military thing.

[Eclipse]

I'm an AFJROTC Cadet, Navy S.C.C. Cadet, CAP Cadet, and former NJROTC Cadet. I'm kind of into the whole military thing.

And yet you're struggling with basic questions of protocol when given a conflicting directive.  A snarky attitude when dealing with
adults, especially the first day you interact with them, isn't going to serve you very well, either, especially when you're underinformed.

Permit me to draw some lines.

You are in AFJROTC and want to make sure those in your CAP unit know you are wearing ABU's there, so you've decided that if your
cadet commander says it's OK, then you will wear a clearly unauthorized shirt under your BDU's, so that every time it's noticed, you
can mention the ABUs.

Close?

[Devil Doc]

I thaught someone involved in that many "Military" type things, would know to take advise from senior members of the organizations you are representing? I am not  senior by no means, but i take adivse of these fine Cap Talkers, and use them wisely.

[JayT]

The Navy NWU is black rough out (which I'm assuming means suede?).

I sure as hell don't wear rough outs with my NWU's.

The NWU allows for an optional "no shine boot" - (i.e. suede).  By far the majority of those I see in NWU's are wearing that option.

We are all now curious why you have both NWUs and ABUs in addition to CAP uniforms.

I'm an AFJROTC Cadet, Navy S.C.C. Cadet, CAP Cadet, and former NJROTC Cadet. I'm kind of into the whole military thing.

And clearly you haven't learn the important lessons from those organizations. The important lessons that I use from my time as a CAP cadet and a JROTC cadet don't involve boot shining or how to press a uniform shirt. The lessons that I use on a daily bases are how to both lead a team and be part of one, how to receive and give orders, how to interact with people, how to conduct myself professionally, and how to work under people I may or may not agree with.

[Airman De Ruiter]

Whelp, to sum it up, no. For one, the very definition of tan is "a pale shade of brown", so it's not exactly a black and white directive. My superior officers have said tan is perfectly acceptable and I find it way more comfortable and economical to buy one shade of moisture-wick shirt. I did, however, have the sneaking suspicion that it was wrong so I came here to get a little more guidance. Once people here said that tan is a no go, did I say "I'm going to wear it anyway."? No. I understand you are more experienced than me, but on the internet, I'm going to treat you with the respect and attitude of a peer.

[Eclipse]

Whelp, to sum it up, no. For one, the very definition of tan is "a pale shade of brown", so it's not exactly a black and white directive.

As Devil Doc said, the official shade of the ABU shirt is "sand" not "tan".  Do you think that's an accident?  You can't assert a legalistic
interpretation of the definition and then just ignore other important details.



There is a myriad of choices in the shade of brown, depending on manufacturer, and how you care for the shirt, they will always
look something like the one on the left, and never close to the one on the right.

I understand you are more experienced than me, but on the internet, I'm going to treat you with the respect and attitude of a peer.

The internet does not change the rules of protocol between senior members and cadets.

Nor between adults and adolescents. 

Your ability to type in a browser does not make you a "peer" in any sense of the word.

[Devil Doc]

I think it is wise Airman to Walk on Egg shells on this Forum and get to know people first. Beleive it or not, there are people on this Forum who are members of NHQ, just be carefull. We all appreciate your enthuiasm,  just sit back and learn. CAP is a great orgnaization, dont start making enemies early. Also, if your a cadet, you cannot tell who is a SM and Cadet on this Forum Regardless everybody has experience when you ask a question. Welcome to Cap Talk, Enjoy the Forums, dont Bull Horn these members, and dont bite the hands that feeds you.

[JayT]

Whelp, to sum it up, no. For one, the very definition of tan is "a pale shade of brown", so it's not exactly a black and white directive. My superior officers have said tan is perfectly acceptable and I find it way more comfortable and economical to buy one shade of moisture-wick shirt. I did, however, have the sneaking suspicion that it was wrong so I came here to get a little more guidance. Once people here said that tan is a no go, did I say "I'm going to wear it anyway."? No. I understand you are more experienced than me, but on the internet, I'm going to treat you with the respect and attitude of a peer.

I'll give you a hint of advice. Don't write anything on the internet that you wouldn't say to someones face. I know several people who were fired (as in, no more checks, no more ability to support their family, no more benefits, big black mark on their records) from jobs at large and prominent agencies because of posts they made on Facebook on 'private' accounts or because they couldn't hold there opinions on a related forum.

[NIN]

Can't say I'm surprised in the least bit at the direction this headed...

[Devil Doc]

^^ Who Asked You to Pitch In? 

[SarDragon]

Whelp, to sum it up, no. For one, the very definition of tan is "a pale shade of brown", so it's not exactly a black and white directive. My superior officers have said tan is perfectly acceptable and I find it way more comfortable and economical to buy one shade of moisture-wick shirt. I did, however, have the sneaking suspicion that it was wrong so I came here to get a little more guidance. Once people here said that tan is a no go, did I say "I'm going to wear it anyway."? No. I understand you are more experienced than me, but on the internet, I'm going to treat you with the respect and attitude of a peer.

One of the other things you have the opportunity to learn in all of these cadet organizations is how to pick your battles. you've picked a really bad one here. Continually telling us about the likenesses of tan and brown will not change either the reg, or our interpretations.

As for your last comment, no, we are not peers. Most of us are adults, you are not, at least withing the scope of cadet programs. We also have a teacher-student relationship that further separates us. Maintaining your attitude will eventually get you in trouble somewhere, especially if you try it in the RealMilitary™. Many of us are current or former military members, and have already learned these lessons.

[ol'fido]

Thanks, that's going to come in handy soon(I'm the unit designated "reg nazi" because I ensure that people follow regs to the "T" and I always carry the necessary citation on me.).

And no, I'm not an officer, I'm new to CAP. I just thought C/Capt Obvious was funny. Apparently not.

I just thought C/Capt Obvious was funny. Apparently not.

Being "master of the obvious" is generally not a good thing. In CAP, it is SPECIFICALLY not a good thing. On CT, it is DEFINITELY, SPECIFICALLY NOT a good thing as I think(hope) we are learning.

[lordmonar]

Whelp, to sum it up, no. For one, the very definition of tan is "a pale shade of brown", so it's not exactly a black and white directive. My superior officers have said tan is perfectly acceptable and I find it way more comfortable and economical to buy one shade of moisture-wick shirt. I did, however, have the sneaking suspicion that it was wrong so I came here to get a little more guidance. Once people here said that tan is a no go, did I say "I'm going to wear it anyway."? No. I understand you are more experienced than me, but on the internet, I'm going to treat you with the respect and attitude of a peer.

De Ruiter......I too am from Las Vegas.....and you don't want to treat me like a "peer" nor do you want me to treat you like one of my "peers"....it will not be pretty.

That said.....CT is not the place to go for judgement calls.....YOUR CHAIN OF COMMAND is the place for you.

[Critical AOA]

Ah... CAP regs... making the FARs look intelligible. 

[Storm Chaser]

Thanks, that's going to come in handy soon(I'm the unit designated "reg nazi" because I ensure that people follow regs to the "T" and I always carry the necessary citation on me.).

And no, I'm not an officer, I'm new to CAP. I just thought C/Capt Obvious was funny. Apparently not.

"Reg Nazi"? With so little CAP experience, seniority and rank, you're far from being qualified to "ensure that people follow regs to the 'T'". And since when did being a "nazi" become a good thing?

I know that my uniform is proper at all times, I may be new to CAP, but I've been wearing Air Force Blues for a minute, now. I don't crack down unless I know for a fact that I know the reg well enough to recite it so no false calls on my part, hopefully. I usually call the common sense stuff i.e. hair, creases, shoe shine/type, colored bracelet, device placement. You know, the stuff no one has time to do right. <--- Sarcasm

So you've been "wearing Air Force Blues for a minute, now"? So what? I've been wearing a uniform for 25 years; that doesn't mean anything. One thing is for you to take pride in your uniform, which is commendable, and another is for you to think that you're better and know more than others because of your uniform and the fact that you can quote regs.

Let's just say I'm a little old school, when it comes to my uniform. I don't get much sleep the day before I wear my uniform because of all the squaring away. As in 3 1/2 hours shining boots for BDU's and 4 on the boots for my blues. I am rather certain that I am SAT.

One of my jobs as Leadership Education Officer is to ensure the proper wear of the uniform. As such, I've always tried to raise the bar when it comes to mine. I can assure you that I don't need to spend 8 hours to make my uniform look great.

Well, I disagree with you there. I think that if you can tell the difference between my boots and Corfams, then I'm doing it wrong. I find a deep sense of responsibility when representing CAP, USAF, and the Armed Forces as a whole.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to represent CAP in the best way possible. But as important as it is to wear your uniform properly, if you think that having a great uniform is the most important thing about CAP, then you don't understand the organization and its missions at all. Besides, you're in CAP, not the USAF.

I'm an AFJROTC Cadet, Navy S.C.C. Cadet, CAP Cadet, and former NJROTC Cadet. I'm kind of into the whole military thing.

That's your problem; you're trying to be so many things that you don't know what the heck you are. You may be "into the whole military thing", but you're not in the military and you don't know what the military is all about. I've been in the military for 17 years. I'm a former active duty enlisted and serve now as an officer in the Air Force Reserve. And I can assure you that, while I take pride in wearing my uniform properly, that is not the main mission or priority of the Air Force or any of the Armed Forces.

[Airman De Ruiter]

Thanks, that's going to come in handy soon(I'm the unit designated "reg nazi" because I ensure that people follow regs to the "T" and I always carry the necessary citation on me.).

And no, I'm not an officer, I'm new to CAP. I just thought C/Capt Obvious was funny. Apparently not.

"Reg Nazi"? With so little CAP experience, seniority and rank, you're far from being qualified to "ensure that people follow regs to the 'T'". And since when did being a "nazi" become a good thing?

I know that my uniform is proper at all times, I may be new to CAP, but I've been wearing Air Force Blues for a minute, now. I don't crack down unless I know for a fact that I know the reg well enough to recite it so no false calls on my part, hopefully. I usually call the common sense stuff i.e. hair, creases, shoe shine/type, colored bracelet, device placement. You know, the stuff no one has time to do right. <--- Sarcasm

So you've been "wearing Air Force Blues for a minute, now"? So what? I've been wearing a uniform for 25 years; that doesn't mean anything. One thing is for you to take pride in your uniform, which is commendable, and another is for you to think that you're better and know more than others because of your uniform and the fact that you can quote regs.

Let's just say I'm a little old school, when it comes to my uniform. I don't get much sleep the day before I wear my uniform because of all the squaring away. As in 3 1/2 hours shining boots for BDU's and 4 on the boots for my blues. I am rather certain that I am SAT.

One of my jobs as Leadership Education Officer is to ensure the proper wear of the uniform. As such, I've always tried to raise the bar when it comes to mine. I can assure you that I don't need to spend 8 hours to make my uniform look great.

Well, I disagree with you there. I think that if you can tell the difference between my boots and Corfams, then I'm doing it wrong. I find a deep sense of responsibility when representing CAP, USAF, and the Armed Forces as a whole.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to represent CAP in the best way possible. But as important as it is to wear your uniform properly, if you think that having a great uniform is the most important thing about CAP, then you don't understand the organization and its missions at all. Besides, you're in CAP, not the USAF.

I'm an AFJROTC Cadet, Navy S.C.C. Cadet, CAP Cadet, and former NJROTC Cadet. I'm kind of into the whole military thing.

That's your problem; you're trying to be so many things that you don't know what the heck you are. You may be "into the whole military thing", but you're not in the military and you don't know what the military is all about. I've been in the military for 17 years. I'm a former active duty enlisted and serve now as an officer in the Air Force Reserve. And I can assure you that, while I take pride in wearing my uniform properly, that is not the main mission or priority of the Air Force or any of the Armed Forces.

I don't think that uniforms being squared away is the most important thing. I'm a busy individual, but if I have free time and my uniforms are not perfect, I will work on them. I'm not going to walk out the door with that flag on my shoulder knowing my boots are shiny, but not as shiny as possible and knowing that I spent time at the movies the night before. I hold myself to higher standard than I hold others, but that's only for opinion matters. I see myself as qualified because I'm using a black and white regulation, it usually shouldn't take much to see if someone is IAW with it or not. As for rank, seniority, and experience, in the words of the Air Force Public Affairs, "You don't need a title to be a leader." I'll let someone know their violation and show them how to correct it. If they refuse to listen, there's jack I can really do except wait and watch them get reamed by an NCO or officer. I don't think that I know more than everyone, nor do I really care if I do. I study the manuals and inform myself as much as possible, irrelevant to the level of knowledge that my peers have.

[Extremepredjudice]

You shouldn't be watching someone "get reamed by an NCO [SIC] or officer." They ncos and officers should be correcting in private. Out of the public eye. Especially at a squadron meeting.

[SarDragon]

You're new to CAP, and claim to be an expert on uniforms. Not buying that with Bill Gates' money.

I've been in CAP at least twice as long as you've been around, have copies of every CAPM 39-1 ever published, and I don't consider myself an expert. Knowledgeable, yes. Expert? Not yet. There are too many inconsistencies, as you pointed out in your original post, for anyone to be a true expert.

[Airman De Ruiter]

For the last time, I don't think I'm an expert. I do my best stay as knowledgeable as possible. If someone violates a regulation that is currently in effect and applicable to them, I'll correct it. That is all. I do keep my eyes out for those things and I like to think I'm rather vigilant.

[Sapper168]

For the last time, I don't think I'm an expert. I do my best stay as knowledgeable as possible. If someone violates a regulation that is currently in effect and applicable to them and is under me in the chain of command, I'll correct it. That is all. I do keep my eyes out for those things and I like to think I'm rather vigilant.

There, I fixed that for you.

[Eclipse]

I see myself as qualified because I'm using a black and white regulation,

Black and white until it means you have to buy a t-shirt, then things get a little "sandy"?

[Майор Хаткевич]

I see myself as qualified because I'm using a black and white regulation,

Black and white until it means you have to buy a t-shirt, then things get a little "sandy" Shady of Brown?

There, fixed that for you. 

[Cool Mace]

I don't think that uniforms being squared away is the most important thing. I'm a busy individual, but if I have free time and my uniforms are not perfect, I will work on them. I'm not going to walk out the door with that flag on my shoulder knowing my boots are shiny, but not as shiny as possible and knowing that I spent time at the movies the night before. I hold myself to higher standard than I hold others, but that's only for opinion matters. I see myself as qualified because I'm using a black and white regulation, it usually shouldn't take much to see if someone is IAW with it or not. As for rank, seniority, and experience, in the words of the Air Force Public Affairs, "You don't need a title to be a leader." I'll let someone know their violation and show them how to correct it. If they refuse to listen, there's jack I can really do except wait and watch them get reamed by an NCO or officer. I don't think that I know more than everyone, nor do I really care if I do. I study the manuals and inform myself as much as possible, irrelevant to the level of knowledge that my peers have.

If you read 39-1, you will find that boots do not need to be shiny. They are supposed to be black, without scuffs. This is a huge pet peeve of mine. I see cadets trying to get on to others for not having the shiniest boots, but they are still clearly within regulation. 

"You don't need a title to be a leader." That is correct. But not with age comes wisdom, but with knowledge.
Learn from the members of this board. Don't take everything people around here say personally.
Members of CT are here to help each other out, and have fun while doing so.
Remember, respect goes a long way.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

But not with age comes wisdom, but with knowledge.

When I was a kid, I thought I knew everything and that my dad was way out of touch.

Now, in my late 40s, I find that I know much less than I thought I did and that my dad was pretty street-smart.

He never saw a 39-1, but I have a feeling if he did, he'd say, "this is worse than anything I ever dealt with in the Army!" coupled with a few colourful metaphors.

[Storm Chaser]

Let me recap here. Wearing you uniform properly and taking pride in doing so is a good thing. CAPR 52-16 (another reg for you yo read) has some interesting things to say about the uniform. As I said before, I spend time myself (and I'm a senior member) making sure that my uniform is squared away and I also hold myself to a higher standard. I don't, however, feel the need to spend 4 hours shinning boots (it takes much less if you know what you're doing).

The problem here, and what most CT members are trying to explain, is your attitude. I agree that many cadets and seniors don't know how to wear their uniforms properly. And the inconsistencies and vagueness found in CAPM 39-1 add to the confusion. As a leader, regardless of rank, it's fine to attempt to help others with their uniforms. Again, the problem is your attitude. If I was your commander or deputy commander for cadets, I would be annoyed with you.

Your enthusiasm and dedication to doing things right may prove in time to be an asset to your unit. But you have to also know your place as a cadet airman and be respectful of others. I've corrected some of my commanders at times, but always with respect and in private. And I've never taken pride with correcting them or others (it's not what true leaders do). I don't make a habit of trying to make others feel like they don't know what they're doing; I teach them and provide mentorship.

Again, your heart may be in the right place, but your attitude may be rubbing others the wrong way. Remember, CAP is a volunteer organization. You want to help others do things right, not drive them away from CAP.

[Cool Mace]

But not with age comes wisdom, but with knowledge.

When I was a kid, I thought I knew everything and that my dad was way out of touch.

Now, in my late 40s, I find that I know much less than I thought I did and that my dad was pretty street-smart.

He never saw a 39-1, but I have a feeling if he did, he'd say, "this is worse than anything I ever dealt with in the Army!" coupled with a few colourful metaphors.

Very true, Cyborg.

I should have elaborated a little bit more. I may have been wrong with my guess that people would understand the meaning behind it.

I'm a young SM, but no where new to CAP. I learn more and more as the days pass.
It's all about what you do with the knowledge that is set forth in front of you.

[JeffDG]

When I was a kid, I thought I knew everything and that my dad was way out of touch.

Now, in my late 40s, I find that I know much less than I thought I did and that my dad was pretty street-smart.

My dad has gotten smarter every year since I turned 25.  His IQ went through the roof when my daughter was born.

[Garibaldi]

Meh. The whole shiny boots thing is a personal choice to me. I have 2 pair of boots, one for meetings that are polished, and one for field work. I had to shine my boots WIWAC because of the way things were done in our unit(pre-CPPT). It just stuck with me and I do it out of habit more than anything. I personally don't give a rat's posterior if you do it or don't. Just don't look like a rag-bag.

[NIN]

As I alluded to earlier, sometimes it is hard to know what the heck the regs are saying without a little historical context.  If CAPM 39-1 had been dropped from orbit and landed at your feet and you'd never seen a uniform manual before, chances are you'd wind up wearing your uniform a little oddly.

Not saying its right, its just sort of the way it is. 

Many, many years ago now, I had a wing commander who had not spent a long time in CAP before he was made the wing commander (memory serves that he was 2-4 months shy of a Red Service Ribbon on appointment).  One day he and I are looking at the reg set in HQ ("The Maxwells" as we used to call them) and he is trying to tell me how the Unit Citation is supposed to be worn.

At this point, I'm an almost 20 year CAP member, former cadet, and I was a cadet in a unit with a unit citation back in the period following the change to the Unit Citation criteria in 1980.  WIWAC, we were all handed green ribbons and told "Wear it."  We were slick-sleeves, so we shrugged our shoulders and did what we were told. 

The year prior, 1980, the Unit Citation criteria had been changed to basically disallow the so-called "temporary wear" of the unit citation by members who are assigned to a unit that has had a previous unit citation awarded but were not members during the period cited. (The current 39-3, dated 1998 in para 12c(2) calls out "may worn permanently" which sort of lends one to believe that there was a "temporary" option. The 1980 rewrite of 39-3 basically got rid of that option, and in the intervening 30 years this particular paragraph has never been cleaned up or rewritten more clearly)

Having been told "take off that unit citation" at encampment a month after I joined, and *knowing* that my unit commander was 100% right (*wink*), I researched this particular topic fully as a C/Amn, including the previous iterations of the regs.  Sure enough, the reg had changed but my unit kept handing out Unit Citations (and this fact was pointed out to my cadet commander, who very tactfully brought it up to the commander, who told the cadet commander to go back to coloring within the lines.. LOL)

In any event, so in 1999 or so, I'm having to explain to my wing commander why the CAP reg says what it does, with the historical context, because he hasn't been in CAP long enough to see a unit citation awarded.  (He said "Well, in the Air Force..." and I had to say "Understood, sir, but this ain't the AF..")

It is important to take your time, listen to the people around you who have "been there and done that" and move cautiously when you're out of your depth.

Whether you're a C/Amn or a Colonel.

[Devil Doc]

NIN is retired, so i would listen to him very much. Hes one of them "Olde Corps" type of person. He has been in CAP since the 1940s so his views are kinda askewed. Carry On

[SarDragon]

Nin - he just called you olde!  :clap:

[Cool Mace]

Nin - he just called you olde!  :clap:

This is where we run, hide and watch it all unfold.

[NIN]

NIN is retired, so i would listen to him very much. Hes one of them "Olde Corps" type of person. He has been in CAP since the 1940s so his views are kinda askewed. Carry On

You Navy boys are all about that wax plug in your ears to keep the salt water out.

It is true, I am of the Olde Corps persuasion.

But 1940s Olde? Yeah, doubtful.

[Devil Doc]

Ok fine not 1940s, Atleast 1950s then. Darin was in when Ground Observers were training with Light bulbs and Bathroom Plungers to help track satellites in the Sky. NIN attennded the 5th Annual IACE, Jack Sorenson was his first Squadron Commander!!

[NIN]

Ok fine not 1940s, Atleast 1950s then. Darin was in when Ground Observers were training with Light bulbs and Bathroom Plungers to help track satellites in the Sky. NIN attennded the 5th Annual IACE, Jack Sorenson was his first Squadron Commander!!

OK, you caught me.

[AlphaSigOU]

And we former cadinks who were in the cadet program way back when the earth cooled and dinosaurs roamed the earth are fond of recalling that the Oooooold Civil Air Patrol was the best Civil Air Patrol...

[SarDragon]

You're not olde. Your Mitchell has a number. 

[PHall]

You're not olde. Your Mitchell has a number. 

But mine doesn't...

[SarDragon]

You're not olde. Your Mitchell has a number. 

But mine doesn't...

We already knew you were olde.

[JeffDG]

You're not olde. Your Mitchell has a number. 

But mine doesn't...

Grandpa, what was it like having to list Velociraptors as a risk on your ORM?

[That Anonymous Guy]

USGC-Black smooth leather
U.S. Air Force- Black Smooth Leather with dress uniforms
U.S. Army-Black Smooth leather(common among paras)
U.S. Navy-Black Smooth leather with NWU

The Air Force would be wearing combat boots with their dress uniform.

[NIN]

Who uses the term "paras" in the US?

I call shenanigans.

[AlphaSigOU]

Who uses the term "paras" in the US?

I call shenanigans.

"I swear to God I'll pistol-whip the next guy that says 'shenanigans'!" [Super Troopers] 

[FlyTiger77]

Who uses the term "paras" in the US?

I call shenanigans.

Would you like for me to lend you my BS flag?

[Airman De Ruiter]

I'm not from here, I'm Russian.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I'm not from here, I'm Russian.

So am I. In fact, for a good minute or three I was Chekov on the USS Enterprise (The USN style at Great Lakes). Doesn't mean much, you seem to handle English just fine.

[Eclipse]

So am I. In fact, for a good minute or three I was Chekov on the USS Enterprise (The USN style at Great Lakes).

((*sniff*)) Memories...

[Майор Хаткевич]

Indeed. IIRC you got to keep some of those name tapes?

[Eclipse]

Indeed. IIRC you got to keep some of those name tapes?

Still have my "Kirk" in with my other uniform stuff.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I can't locate mine anywhere. ;(

[a2capt]

I can't locate mine anywhere. ;(

Look in between all those buried encampment t-shirts..
For all you know, they'll pop up at the least expected moment..

[Майор Хаткевич]

I moved out of my parents home in 2008. Out of my apartment in 2012. Unless its in a BDU pocket somewhere, its gone.

[ol'fido]

Och, mah wee bairns. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Och, mah wee bairns. 

Nyet, Keptin.  Is Russian inwention.  Ciwil Air Patrol, is, after all, copy of Soviet DOSAAF.

[NIN]

Nyet, Keptin.  Is Russian inwention.  Ciwil Air Patrol, is, after all, copy of Soviet DOSAAF.

Go put the shields up, Chekov.

[ColonelJack]

Shields?  Inwented by little old lady from Leningrad.

Jack

[NIN]

BTW, lest anybody thinks that CAP's uniform manual follies (ICLs, unpublished changes, etc) are "unprofessional and unmilitary" remember that the current AR 670-1 (the Army's Uniform Manual) is dated March 2005 and does not include either ACUs or the new-style Army Service Uniform in ANY of its descriptions.

ACUs have been in circulation in the Army since 2005, BDUs have been phased out since around 2008, and the ASU will completely replace dress greens in 2014. Yet if you use AR 670-1 as your "sole source" you'd be out of uniform.

[lordmonar]

BTW, lest anybody thinks that CAP's uniform manual follies (ICLs, unpublished changes, etc) are "unprofessional and unmilitary" remember that the current AR 670-1 (the Army's Uniform Manual) is dated March 2005 and does not include either ACUs or the new-style Army Service Uniform in ANY of its descriptions.

ACUs have been in circulation in the Army since 2005, BDUs have been phased out since around 2008, and the ASU will completely replace dress greens in 2014. Yet if you use AR 670-1 as your "sole source" you'd be out of uniform.

And back in the day the USAF 35-10 was even older.....it still did not have BDU's in them....they were not added untl HHWNBN ordered all regs to got to AFI.

[JoeTomasone]

BTW, lest anybody thinks that CAP's uniform manual follies (ICLs, unpublished changes, etc) are "unprofessional and unmilitary" remember that the current AR 670-1 (the Army's Uniform Manual) is dated March 2005 and does not include either ACUs or the new-style Army Service Uniform in ANY of its descriptions.

ACUs have been in circulation in the Army since 2005, BDUs have been phased out since around 2008, and the ASU will completely replace dress greens in 2014. Yet if you use AR 670-1 as your "sole source" you'd be out of uniform.

But unlike 39-1, which demands compliance and asserts that no variations from it are permissible, AR 670-1 has it covered:

Only uniforms, accessories, and insignia prescribed in this regulation or in the common tables of allowance
(CTA), or as approved by Headquarters, Department of the Army (HQDA), will be worn by personnel in the U.S.
Army. Unless specified in this regulation, the commander issuing the clothing and equipment will establish wear
policies for organizational clothing and equipment.

I'm not sure how the CTA works, but it probably doesn't require incorporation into the parent regulation within 90 days.

Side note: I thought WE had a lot of uniforms/combinations...

[Sapper168]

Side note: I thought WE had a lot of uniforms/combinations...

Half of the Uniforms in the AR670-1 are phased out and replaced by ACU or ASU.  So its not really as many as it seems. 

[NIN]

I'm not sure how the CTA works, but it probably doesn't require incorporation into the parent regulation within 90 days.

Side note: I thought WE had a lot of uniforms/combinations...

Organizational clothing is odd, too.  Example: flightsuits. Those were "organizational issue," not "individual issue," so they got turned into the unit when you PCS'd.  Because they were organizational clothing, the commander could say "and there will be a unit patch worn" (We did not have a unit patch) and technically it would be allowed.

That was more to cover stuff like coveralls, confined space or anti-static garments, raingear, TA-50 type issue, not specifically uniform items.  Cuz flightsuits were DEFINITELY covered in 670-1.