Why are there such egregious uniform violations...if indeed there are?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I keep reading on CT that the reasons the Air Force keeps us on such a tight leash uniform-wise is because of such apparently egregious uniform violations that so many of our members commit.

I came in just after the imposition of the berry boards, which, depending on who you talk to, were forced on us by the AF because of the actions of a few stupid people who were indeed playing "wanna be" and throwing around rank they aren't authorised to do.

That was in the late '80s/early '90s.  We're still carrying the cross for the actions of those few.

Over almost two decades in CAP, in two wings, in senior, cadet and composite squadrons, I have never personally seen the kind of uniform violations that many CT folk cite as reasons for the AF keeping us under their uniform microscope (and which a small percentage cite as reasons for us to junk the AF uniforms entirely).  Yes, some of them have been substantiated by photographic evidence, so I'm not saying they don't happen.

If these violations are as widespread as claimed, I ask only one question: why?

Did they happen back in what I sometimes call the Golden Age of CAP, when we were welcomed on AF installations and the AF embraced us a lot more than they do now?

If not, when did the downhill slide happen?

[lordmonar]

I think you are somewhere near the real truth here.

a.  Most of the "Violations" are of the nature of "My cousin's roommate's friend once saw" sort of thing.
b.  We tend to have a very long collective memory.....and we pass off a lot of what happend in '80s and '90s as happening yestereday.
c.  The Urban Legend, Training by Rumor system is stong in CAP.  We pass off a lot of "why this is important" with a story that has been told and retold.....but no one really knows for sure.....I point out the rumor about why we started U.S. Flag on the BDUs.  I had people swear it was because HWSNBN was mistaken for a South American military type during Katrina.  Same story when we pulled the USAF AUX off the tails of the aircraft.  We has a lot of rumor about WHY it was happening but no real truth.

Now we have all seen someone out there not doing it right.....for one reason or another.  And yes there is photographic evidence all the time of someone not doing it right.

That is bottom line.....training......consistant training.  The cadets all go to encampment and so the cadets tend to be consitant.  Those that go to encampment as basics or on staff pass what they learn down to their troops.  So long as the encampment is not doing stupid stuff then we don't get stupid stuff in the squadrons.

On the Senior side.....we just don't have that as much.  We expect our seniors to either ask or look it up themselves.  Ususually they just look around and follow the example of those around them. 

[RiverAux]

The "Air Force" has never given this stuff a minutes thought.  This is about 99% CAPTalk culture and 1% reality.

[Cool Mace]

The Air Force only gives what we ask. If we don't ask for the change, then they won't take it upon themselves to give it to us. CAP provides what we want for uniforms, and they then give us a yes or no.

We might still be paying for what Bowling did, but we can't have what we don't ask for.

[Pylon]

I have yet to see any actual evidence, attributable quotes, statements, or even overhead chatter from AF personnel that the Air Force is somehow sick of perceived or actual uniform violations by CAP members.

Plus, we may notice when a CAP member wears his or her membership ribbon backwards or makes some small uniform violation because we're around it all the time -- but the Air Force is not at 99% of CAP functions.  They aren't at your weekly meetings, or on your cadet o-flights, or at your professional development seminars or your routine training or your bivouacs.  And the PAOs do a pretty good job of screening out photos picturing uniform violations, so much of that minor stuff never reaches the public or USAF's eye anyway.

This is one of those rumors that seems to get perpetuated by CAP members without any apparent basis in fact or reality.

[FW]

The only difference between our CAP (Auxiliary) uniform and the Air Force uniform is the gray sliders on the eps.  That is a big difference between our "golden age" and now.  It is not, however, cause to say the Air Force is happy with our enforcement of uniform wear.  We do not have metal rank because of a certain CAWG member (now on NHQ) who wore brown cowboy boots with the blues while being 100 lbs over the weight limit (I would quote then CoS Gen Foglesong but, I would have to mention a name which, is a violation of CT code of conduct).  We lost blue sliders because of the fued between the SECAF and AFCoS over Harwell's "promotion".  These are well documented.  Just need to go to the right source and do some real research. 

As far as a general AF disgust of our uniform enforcement; I can only relate to  CI teams comments.  I've read numerous comments on the lack of proper wear of the Air Force (style) uniform by members of the Civil Air Patrol over the 16 years I've been dealing with such. I've seen a wing commander wear the brown A1 leather jacket with flight suit.  I've noticed boonie hats with the BDU's.  I've seen members way over the weight limit and, at the last wing conference I attended, I noticed members still wearing blue sliders on their uniforms.  I know the Air Force is aware of this stuff.  How it is effecting us now is a good question.

[Cool Mace]

I have yet to see any actual evidence, attributable quotes, statements, or even overhead chatter from AF personnel that the Air Force is somehow sick of perceived or actual uniform violations by CAP members.

Plus, we may notice when a CAP member wears his or her membership ribbon backwards or makes some small uniform violation because we're around it all the time -- but the Air Force is not at 99% of CAP functions.  They aren't at your weekly meetings, or on your cadet o-flights, or at your professional development seminars or your routine training or your bivouacs.  And the PAOs do a pretty good job of screening out photos picturing uniform violations, so much of that minor stuff never reaches the public or USAF's eye anyway.

This is one of those rumors that seems to get perpetuated by CAP members without any apparent basis in fact or reality.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Dead on!

[abdsp51]

I think a lot of our issues are self inflicted, and membership as a whole has an uphill fight to rectify the issues.  Personally I have no issues with SM who are allowed to wear the AF style uniform have grey slides or the nameplate, which looks better than the [darn] maroon things of the 90s.  Having read through CAPM or is it CAPR39-1 it is in serious need of an overhaul, in many aspects, and people having the courage to say something when a violation is observed.  But until there is clear cut guidelines to enforce things will continue to be an enforcement nightmare and we will have this he said she said debates, and everything else.

[NCRblues]

I think a lot of our issues are self inflicted, and membership as a whole has an uphill fight to rectify the issues.  Personally I have no issues with SM who are allowed to wear the AF style uniform have grey slides or the nameplate, which looks better than the [darn] maroon things of the 90s.  Having read through CAPM or is it CAPR39-1 it is in serious need of an overhaul, in many aspects, and people having the courage to say something when a violation is observed.  But until there is clear cut guidelines to enforce things will continue to be an enforcement nightmare and we will have this he said she said debates, and everything else.

I really believe that the largest area of concern is the lack of an update on CAPM 39-1. The current 39-1 has problems. It contradicts itself, has loop holes you could fly a 787 through so forth and so on.

A re-do of 39-1 would go a long way in helping cap get over our uniform problems.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

a.  Most of the "Violations" are of the nature of "My cousin's roommate's friend once saw" sort of thing.
b.  We tend to have a very long collective memory.....and we pass off a lot of what happend in '80s and '90s as happening yestereday.
c.  The Urban Legend, Training by Rumor system is stong in CAP.  We pass off a lot of "why this is important" with a story that has been told and retold.....but no one really knows for sure.....I point out the rumor about why we started U.S. Flag on the BDUs.  I had people swear it was because HWSNBN was mistaken for a South American military type during Katrina.  Same story when we pulled the USAF AUX off the tails of the aircraft.  We has a lot of rumor about WHY it was happening but no real truth.

I couldn't have said that better myself!

I have never seen any of those examples...but I've HEARD of them...validation of point C.

I think what you said about point B is really prevalent the higher-up one goes, especially in terms of what Cool Mace said about "asking" and "getting."  I think that the berry boards are so burned into senior CAP officers' collective memory (your point B) that they've got really gun-shy about "what to ask for" WRT the Air Force.  I know that various well-meaning personages post that we have to wait for the NUC (?) to publish its conclusions, and then take them to the Air Force...however, my deeply cynical side (which existed long before I ever joined CAP) says that little to nothing will happen on that front, at least with the AF uniform, and that WRT the "corporate" uniform, probably just entrench once and for all that it's the only distinctive uniform we need or will ever have, but with little to no changes.

The "Air Force" has never given this stuff a minutes thought.  This is about 99% CAPTalk culture and 1% reality.

I believe you, because outside of higher-ups in AETC, the Air Force in general doesn't even know who we are.

We might still be paying for what Bowling did, but we can't have what we don't ask for.

What did he do?  I was referring to Harwell...

The only difference between our CAP (Auxiliary) uniform and the Air Force uniform is the gray sliders on the eps.  That is a big difference between our "golden age" and now.  It is not, however, cause to say the Air Force is happy with our enforcement of uniform wear.  We do not have metal rank because of a certain CAWG member (now on NHQ) who wore brown cowboy boots with the blues while being 100 lbs over the weight limit (I would quote then CoS Gen Foglesong but, I would have to mention a name which, is a violation of CT code of conduct).  We lost blue sliders because of the fued between the SECAF and AFCoS over Harwell's "promotion".  These are well documented.  Just need to go to the right source and do some real research. 

Colonel, I've heard all of those things except the bit about the cowboy boots.  I thought the hard rank went out along with the blue sliders because of Harwell.

However, I do respectfully differ on the "golden age" part.  When I first came into CAP ('93), I remember being welcomed onto AF installations, greeted with a smile (and sometimes a salute) and chatting with AF personnel about CAP and what we do.

Now when I go onto an AF installation I almost get the feeling that I need to be apologetic..."I'm sorry that some of our members don't respect your uniform, I do my best to wear it correctly, but when you see me you probably think of all those stories about CAP members trolling for salutes, and I'm sorry about that."

As far as a general AF disgust of our uniform enforcement; I can only relate to  CI teams comments.  I've read numerous comments on the lack of proper wear of the Air Force (style) uniform by members of the Civil Air Patrol over the 16 years I've been dealing with such. I've seen a wing commander wear the brown A1 leather jacket with flight suit.  I've noticed boonie hats with the BDU's.  I've seen members way over the weight limit and, at the last wing conference I attended, I noticed members still wearing blue sliders on their uniforms.  I know the Air Force is aware of this stuff.  How it is effecting us now is a good question.

Blue slides?  Where do they have them, stuffed away in a collection somewhere?  My first unit had some when I joined but various members bought/appropriated them for their collections.  I see them on Evilbay now and again, and they usually go fast.  A former commander had a collection, including warrant officer grade.

I sometimes see what I think may be weight violations, but without actually asking someone to step on a scale (not happening), I cannot say for sure.  I also think this is one of the goofiest parts of our uniform regs, because I have not infrequently seen Air Force members - Active, Guard and Reserve - who would be over OUR weight limits, let alone THEIRS.

I haven't seen that at wing conferences, but I confess to not having been to a wing conference in some years.  There were enough Air Force officers and NCO's at the ones I attended (including a region conference) that probably would have put the kibosh on that sharpish.

I think a lot of our issues are self inflicted, and membership as a whole has an uphill fight to rectify the issues.  Personally I have no issues with SM who are allowed to wear the AF style uniform have grey slides or the nameplate, which looks better than the [darn] maroon things of the 90s.

Agreed in part, in fact wholeheartedly agreed about the self-inflicted.

But our way of "rectifying" seems to be saying "just wear the golf shirt/aviator combo."

I also agree that the grey rank looks a LOT better than the berry boards.  As soon as I got my grey slides, I threw my maroon ones in the circular file.

However, I think it set a bad precedent in that the unspoken CAP "solution" for uniform problems is to make everything grey. (just waiting for an oval brass belt buckle saying "CS" and a kepi to be authorised  ).

I really believe that the largest area of concern is the lack of an update on CAPM 39-1. The current 39-1 has problems. It contradicts itself, has loop holes you could fly a 787 through so forth and so on.

A re-do of 39-1 would go a long way in helping cap get over our uniform problems.

A guarded "yes" to that one.  The cleverest can still find loopholes in even the tightest regs.

For example, what's wrong with my wearing the flight cap with my blue jumpsuit?  The only difference is that it's not NOMEX, and no-one (but me) would know if I did so (for the record: I don't and I won't).  I saw it worn very frequently with the old Smurf suit.  I've asked NHQ about it and just get a word-for-word restatement of what's in 39-1.

Good answers, everybody!

[Eclipse]

I seriously doubt the "Air Force" gives a lot of attention on a daily basis to CAP uniforms, however with that said, we cause a lot of our own problems.

If these violations are as widespread as claimed, I ask only one question: why?

The main issues are caused by a lack of command imperative coupled with almost no consequences for violations.  There's also:

Apathy.
Lack of knowledge and inconsistent training.
Aversion to uncomfortable conversations.
Attitude that "no one will notice"

No to mention a nice mix of some of the attitudes exhibited by posters here, which engage some of the most bizarre mental gymnastics
for not wearing this or that combo correctly, or at all.  Every kind of nonsense from "safety" to "no one said I can't".

Back to the OP, there's plenty of willful violations to go around, and I can tell you that the USAF does notice, and not just in regards to
the USAF-style uniforms, but in the corporate variants as well.

[abdsp51]

I believe you, because outside of higher-ups in AETC, the Air Force in general doesn't even know who we are.

On this I can tell you that group, wing, numbered AF CCs etc in all MAJCOMs of the AF know who CAP is and what we do.  They get a presentation of it and a tour of the AFRCC from 1st AF.  What they do with the information is entirely on them.  I think that if our members for one reason or another are the root cause of issues.  These issues can be fixed by membership and one way is for clearer guidelines on things and not leaving much open to interpretation.  I went through SLS here and the first day at lunch going from the food court to clothing sales I received two salutes in that short trip alone.  I didn't stop and tell them as they didn't know any better but I sure as heck wasn't trolling for it either.  Alot of uniform violations can be seemed up basically by the following;

1) Ignorance
2) Not caring
3) Not Properly trained

It is up to us the membership to rectify issues from the bottom up.  Alot of members gripe they don't receive alot of support from the AF has your leadership approached the powers to be on the yard?  Most command slots on a yard are a set time frame, and there most wg commanders are always looking for how to improve their base and community relations. 

[Eclipse]

There's also the issue of the willful violations that involve high-visibility items.

If you have a badge too low, are wearing an EMT and GTM, or military ribbons on your whites, no one is likely to take as much notice
as if the violation involves a leather jacket, boonie hat, beret, or some other item that everyone knows is controversial, has a limited (or zero) wear lane
and may be a sore spot with the USAF.

But rather than consider collateral damage, some members "know better".

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I seriously doubt the "Air Force" gives a lot of attention on a daily basis to CAP uniforms, however with that said, we cause a lot of our own problems.

Agreed, until they get a report of some misguided CAP member trolling for a salute...then they do notice us.

The main issues are caused by a lack of command imperative couple with almost no consequences for violations.

I guess I was lucky in that I came into a squadron that wore the AF almost uniform exclusively...and told you about it if you didn't wear it right.

No to mention a nice mix of some of the attitudes exhibited by posters here, which engage some of the most bizarre mental gymnastics
for not wearing this or that combo correctly, or at all.

Unfortunately I have noticed that.

Back to the OP, there's plenty of willful violations to go around, and I can tell you that the USAF does notice, and not just in regards to
the USAF-style uniforms, but in the corporate variants as well.

Not to sound flippant, but why do they care about the corporate variants, other than someone wrongly wearing military blingage on them when we're not supposed to?

On this I can tell you that group, wing, numbered AF CCs etc in all MAJCOMs of the AF know who CAP is and what we do.

Point taken on that, but again that's mostly chaps and chapesses with egg on their caps.

The further down you go, unless said airman/NCO/lieutenant is a CAP member themselves, the more likely to be unfamiliar with CAP they are.

I remember reading in the Air Force Times that one Airman said his MTI told him to "ignore" CAP members if he encountered them.

I went through SLS here and the first day at lunch going from the food court to clothing sales I received two salutes in that short trip alone. 

I wasn't intending to make this about salutes...I had it inculcated from the getgo that we were not entitled to them and just return them and a greeting when we get them.

It is up to us the membership to rectify issues from the bottom up. 

Other than policing my own behaviour and making my own conduct as exemplary as possible, I am unsure how to do that.

Alot of members gripe they don't receive alot of support from the AF has your leadership approached the powers to be on the yard?  Most command slots on a yard are a set time frame, and there most wg commanders are always looking for how to improve their base and community relations. 

Which level of leadership?

I am very much an "in-the-background" type of person, and though you wouldn't know it from my CT blathering, I am quite reserved to the point of being monosyllabic at times.   Above squadron level, I doubt many in Group or Wing leadership even know who I am (seriously) beyond a face they see occasionally and a name on a roster.  My point: I'm not privy to if/when/what/why those up the food chain from me have done.

[abdsp51]

Squadron commander and group commanders would be a good place to start with.  And there is nothing wrong with being behind the scenes, those guys/gals are the unsung heroes of many operations activities etc. 

[Eclipse]

Not to sound flippant, but why do they care about the corporate variants, other than someone wrongly wearing military blingage on them when we're not supposed to?

Wrong is wrong, and just because the shirt is white instead of blue, doesn't mean that a member's lack of respect for the uniform or attention to detail goes unnoticed.  The Patton Paradigm^® is the same no matter what uniform you are wearing, military, corporate, or your personal employment.

It would probably surprise some people to find out just how well informed some State Directors and CAP-RAPs actually are about uniforms, and the
comments they make about "Major Payne wearing the regimental tie with his whites...", etc.


"Patton Paradigm^®" is a registered trademark of eClipseco Mining and Heavy Machinery Consortium.  All Rights Reserved.
Let eClipseco service all of your rhetoric and propaganda needs!

[FW]

Colonel, I've heard all of those things except the bit about the cowboy boots.  I thought the hard rank went out along with the blue sliders because of Harwell.

However, I do respectfully differ on the "golden age" part.  When I first came into CAP ('93), I remember being welcomed onto AF installations, greeted with a smile (and sometimes a salute) and chatting with AF personnel about CAP and what we do.

Now when I go onto an AF installation I almost get the feeling that I need to be apologetic..."I'm sorry that some of our members don't respect your uniform, I do my best to wear it correctly, but when you see me you probably think of all those stories about CAP members trolling for salutes, and I'm sorry about that."

As far as a general AF disgust of our uniform enforcement; I can only relate to  CI teams comments.  I've read numerous comments on the lack of proper wear of the Air Force (style) uniform by members of the Civil Air Patrol over the 16 years I've been dealing with such. I've seen a wing commander wear the brown A1 leather jacket with flight suit.  I've noticed boonie hats with the BDU's.  I've seen members way over the weight limit and, at the last wing conference I attended, I noticed members still wearing blue sliders on their uniforms.  I know the Air Force is aware of this stuff.  How it is effecting us now is a good question.

Blue slides?  Where do they have them, stuffed away in a collection somewhere?  My first unit had some when I joined but various members bought/appropriated them for their collections.  I see them on Evilbay now and again, and they usually go fast.  A former commander had a collection, including warrant officer grade.

I sometimes see what I think may be weight violations, but without actually asking someone to step on a scale (not happening), I cannot say for sure.  I also think this is one of the goofiest parts of our uniform regs, because I have not infrequently seen Air Force members - Active, Guard and Reserve - who would be over OUR weight limits, let alone THEIRS.

I haven't seen that at wing conferences, but I confess to not having been to a wing conference in some years.  There were enough Air Force officers and NCO's at the ones I attended (including a region conference) that probably would have put the kibosh on that sharpish.

CyBorg, we're basically on the same page however, when I mentioned "the Golden Age", I was referring only to the resemblence of our current uniform with those of 15 years ago and longer. I can remember the days when our membership card was all which was needed to get access to an AF Base. 

Yes, some members wear the blue slides even today.  Yes, it's been a million years since they were authorized and, yes, they went away because of the Harwell promotion (not Harwell).

In my many years as a CAP member (many many) I've noticed more and more uniform violations. I've been forced to listen to a few CAP-USAF/CCs and a few pentagon officials "remarking" about how "we" wear the uniform.  However, as I've already said, I have no idea if these "remarks" translate into adverse actions on CAP.

[Eclipse]

Yes, some members wear the blue slides even today.  Yes, it's been a million years since they were authorized and, yes, they went away because of the Harwell promotion (not Harwell).

We've still got people wearing wing patches on blues.

In my many years as a CAP member (many many) I've noticed more and more uniform violations. I've been forced to listen to a few CAP-USAF/CCs and a few pentagon officials "remarking" about how "we" wear the uniform.  However, as I've already said, I have no idea if these "remarks" translate into adverse actions on CAP.

Perhaps when those remarks are made, you might suggest that they assist in supporting making our uniform situation less...complicated.
Granted, the situation has evolved over 20-30 years, and the "hows" and "whys" are complicated, but the fixes could be quick and simple.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

...the fixes could be quick and simple.

You were making so much sense in your posts, why do you have to screw-up now?

"Quick and simple fixes" with the subject being CAP uniforms?

One might as well try to untie a Gordian Knot or calculate the value of Pi.

[Extremepredjudice]

Pi:  3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510
58209749445923078164062862089986280348253421170679
   82148086513282306647093844609550582231725359408128
   48111745028410270193852110555964462294895493038196
   44288109756659334461284756482337867831652712019091
   45648566923460348610454326648213393607260249141273
   72458700660631558817488152092096282925409171536436
   78925903600113305305488204665213841469519415116094
   33057270365759591953092186117381932611793105118548
   07446237996274956735188575272489122793818301194912
   98336733624406566430860213949463952247371907021798
   60943702770539217176293176752384674818467669405132
   00056812714526356082778577134275778960917363717872
   14684409012249534301465495853710507922796892589235
   42019956112129021960864034418159813629774771309960
   51870721134999999837297804995105973173281609631859
   50244594553469083026425223082533446850352619311881
   71010003137838752886587533208381420617177669147303
   59825349042875546873115956286388235378759375195778
   18577805321712268066130019278766111959092164201989

Someone calcuated Pi out to the 10 trillionth place. So don't say it is impossible to calculate Pi. And the gordian knot was untied. The two variations either have alexander cut it, and the other he unties it.

[RiverAux]

By my earlier comments I didn't mean to imply that CAP wasn't rife with uniform violations.  It is and the reason they continue is that compliance with uniform regulations is not something that has apparently ever been a priority in CAP.  Much as I think "safety" is over-hyped, it is a much more important issue than the uniform and at least in regards to these two issues, the priority has been placed on the right one. 

Basically, without a constant and high profile emphasis on an issue, its going to be very hard to get volunteers to take it seriously.  Actually, it wouldn't be that hard to start getting the message out to members and provide leaders at all levels the moral support to enforce the regulations.  Just start putting some sort of short article taking on a particularly problematic and common uniform violation in the Volunteer every few months.  Even a small, quarter-page blurb would probably be enough. 

[ßτε]

Pi:  3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510
58209749445923078164062862089986280348253421170679
   82148086513282306647093844609550582231725359408128
   48111745028410270193852110555964462294895493038196
   44288109756659334461284756482337867831652712019091
   45648566923460348610454326648213393607260249141273
   72458700660631558817488152092096282925409171536436
   78925903600113305305488204665213841469519415116094
   33057270365759591953092186117381932611793105118548
   07446237996274956735188575272489122793818301194912
   98336733624406566430860213949463952247371907021798
   60943702770539217176293176752384674818467669405132
   00056812714526356082778577134275778960917363717872
   14684409012249534301465495853710507922796892589235
   42019956112129021960864034418159813629774771309960
   51870721134999999837297804995105973173281609631859
   50244594553469083026425223082533446850352619311881
   71010003137838752886587533208381420617177669147303
   59825349042875546873115956286388235378759375195778
   18577805321712268066130019278766111959092164201989

Someone calcuated Pi out to the 10 trillionth place. So don't say it is impossible to calculate Pi. And the gordian knot was untied. The two variations either have alexander cut it, and the other he unties it.

I hate to tell you this, but that is NOT π (pi). You obviously missed the point. No matter how many digits of pi you calculate it, you are still never going to calculate all the digits.

[lordmonar]

...the fixes could be quick and simple.

You were making so much sense in your posts, why do you have to screw-up now?

"Quick and simple fixes" with the subject being CAP uniforms?

One might as well try to untie a Gordian Knot or calculate the value of Pi.

The "fix" is simple in concept......just not implementation.

The "FIX" is to teach our members how to wear the varioius uniform combos properly......and then make sure that they in fact do wear it properly.

It has to be implemented at all levels.....fairly and consistantly.  We need to police our peers, our subordinates and challeng our superiors......all the time....consistantly.

I have seen wing level guys get all bent about someone wearing subdued rank on their green flight suit....to the point where they cut off the rank there at the mission base.....with the excuse that the USAF will be angery.....this same individual was 50lbs over weight with a moustach way out of regs. 

Then the following week a region commander got his picture in the paper with subdued rank on his flight suit.

It does not take a lot of that before people stop caring about policing the ranks.

YMMV

[JeffDG]

Pi:  3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510
58209749445923078164062862089986280348253421170679
   82148086513282306647093844609550582231725359408128
   48111745028410270193852110555964462294895493038196
   44288109756659334461284756482337867831652712019091
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Someone calcuated Pi out to the 10 trillionth place. So don't say it is impossible to calculate Pi. And the gordian knot was untied. The two variations either have alexander cut it, and the other he unties it.

I hate to tell you this, but that is NOT π (pi). You obviously missed the point. No matter how many digits of pi you calculate it, you are still never going to calculate all the digits.

The best you can calculate of pi is an approximation, even if you go to the 10 trillionth decimal place, it's still an approximation.  e is another example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendental_number

[FW]

^The "fix" is not just in education and enforcement.  It is also the (re)establishment of pride in its wear.
Getting members to be proud to wear our uniform is the harder goal.  It takes instilling a sense of pride in the organization, pride in our fellow members and, pride in our leaders.  In this current environment, I don't know if "implimentation" is even possible...

[NCRblues]

Then the following week a region commander got his picture in the paper with subdued rank on his flight suit.

It does not take a lot of that before people stop caring about policing the ranks.

YMMV

Bingo! That is the key! The changes we need to fix our uniform problem will never go away when we have members placed into positions of authority violating the regulations.

A very wise old wing commander once told me that "if you break the rules for one, the rest will want the same in return".

Enforce the standards at the top level, the lower levels will (eventually) fall into line.

(Plus edit the pictures we put on the news section of cap-members.com. We are not doing ourselves any favors by putting pictures up of wing patches on dress blues, GT badges above wings ribbons out of order or missing ext...)

[bflynn]

We need to police our peers, our subordinates and challeng our superiors......all the time....consistantly.

I'm curious - what would you think "policing" others looks like?

[abdsp51]

We need to police our peers, our subordinates and challeng our superiors......all the time....consistantly.

I'm curious - what would you think "policing" others looks like?

Don't read into it.

[lordmonar]

We need to police our peers, our subordinates and challeng our superiors......all the time....consistantly.

I'm curious - what would you think "policing" others looks like?

Simple.....

As a peer....when in your squadron...always help out your fellow squadron members....it is not just the commander's job.
When at group/wing/regional events.......we politely correct those not doing it right.  If they tell you "My commander/flight sergeant/CAPTALK said this was okay" we follow up with the informationn and apply the corrective action where it needs to be.

As a leader......DEMAND of yourself and your subordinates compliance with the standard.  Don't look for loop holes, keep the exceptions to policy to an absolute minimun.  Make sure you are going through the proper paperwork drill (i.e. publish the sup to 39-1 at the appropriate level).  TEACH you subordinate how to read the regs!

As a subordinate....when your leaders violate the uniform regs....challenge them....respectfully.    Help them out.....they may in fact not know the reg.  If they do....and the blow you off.......go up the chain of command. 

This applies to any regulation....not just uniforms.

[arajca]

We need to police our peers, our subordinates and challeng our superiors......all the time....consistantly.

I'm curious - what would you think "policing" others looks like?

Simple.....

As a peer....when in your squadron...always help out your fellow squadron members....it is not just the commander's job.
When at group/wing/regional events.......we politely correct those not doing it right.  If they tell you "My commander/flight sergeant/CAPTALK said this was okay" we follow up with the informationn and apply the corrective action where it needs to be.

As a leader......DEMAND of yourself and your subordinates compliance with the standard.  Don't look for loop holes, keep the exceptions to policy to an absolute minimun.  Make sure you are going through the proper paperwork drill (i.e. publish the sup to 39-1 at the appropriate level).  TEACH you subordinate how to read the regs!

As a subordinate....when your leaders violate the uniform regs....challenge them....respectfully.    Help them out.....they may in fact not know the reg.  If they do....and the blow you off.......go up the chain of command. 

This applies to any regulation....not just uniforms.

Additionally, be POLITE and RESPECTFUL when doing so.

[sarmed1]

"....leather jacket, boonie hat, beret....."
From an  AF guy perspective its not these sort of things per say that the average (or even moderately informed) USAF member sees on a CAP member and says WTF?!  Basically because they are common USAF items (read in authorized) and more or less seen frequently enough when worn in their proper time and place; and if seen worn by CAP members in the same "proper"places, they dont look inappropriate to the USAF.

Its when items are worn inapropriately or in ways they contradict USAF uniform practices (even if 39-1 approved) or failures to look appropraite in USAF uniform (ie height/weight type standards, or apprpraite C&C).  In fact most AF folks that dont know much about CAP think that some of the "CAP specific" differances look as silly to them as most CAP folks (Grey slides on blues, colored patches on BDU's etc, etc)

mk

[lordmonar]

We need to police our peers, our subordinates and challeng our superiors......all the time....consistantly.

I'm curious - what would you think "policing" others looks like?

Simple.....

As a peer....when in your squadron...always help out your fellow squadron members....it is not just the commander's job.
When at group/wing/regional events.......we politely correct those not doing it right.  If they tell you "My commander/flight sergeant/CAPTALK said this was okay" we follow up with the informationn and apply the corrective action where it needs to be.

As a leader......DEMAND of yourself and your subordinates compliance with the standard.  Don't look for loop holes, keep the exceptions to policy to an absolute minimun.  Make sure you are going through the proper paperwork drill (i.e. publish the sup to 39-1 at the appropriate level).  TEACH you subordinate how to read the regs!

As a subordinate....when your leaders violate the uniform regs....challenge them....respectfully.    Help them out.....they may in fact not know the reg.  If they do....and the blow you off.......go up the chain of command. 

This applies to any regulation....not just uniforms.

Additionally, be POLITE and RESPECTFUL when doing so.

ALWAYS......Even when you are 100% right and 100% Justified......being a 4th point of contact will not get you or your message very far.

[Private Investigator]

My input on uniform violations. Some people never see them because they are in a sharp Squadron. Others are in units that is so sloppy they really do not notice themselves.

I visit a lot of Squadrons, officially and unofficially so I notice a big difference between the best and worst. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

In fact most AF folks that dont know much about CAP think that some of the "CAP specific" differances look as silly to them as most CAP folks (Grey slides on blues, colored patches on BDU's etc, etc)

:clap: :clap: :clap:

I have gotten that a few times myself, back in the waning days of The Golden Age Of CAP.

I was sitting in a base Burger King on a drill weekend and some Air Force Reserve NCO's struck up a conversation with me.

At the time we had the even-more-hideous berry boards.

One NCO asked me what was with the shoulder boards..."I thought you guys wore blue ones like we do, but with 'CAP' on them."  I told him "we used to, but the Air Force took them away from us."  He shook his head and said that if we were part of the Air Force (I didn't get into splitting hairs about what "part of" meant and this was long before the terrible days of "AUX ON/AUX OFF") that we should look like the Air Force, "especially since you guys do what you do, don't get paid and don't get retirement points."

I wish I could have that quote on a certificate, framed, signed and used as part of my signature line.

[Major Carrales]

As I have said before, the crux of this problem lies in the "squadron culture."  There is no "standard" CAP squadron culture.  Thus, isolated units tend to develop "extra-regulation" uniform practices, unit near military installations take on some of the practices of the base they are next to (like wearing the army style ribbon rack...which tends to space out ribbons), culture is too lacks and people don't want to "rock the boat" and sometimes people think they are 19th century military officers wearing customized uniforms.

There may be no real way to standardize the culture...unless you had Wing or CAP-USAF members visiting every meeting across the wing.

At Wing Conferences you can see these issues merge.  People from large Wings sometimes have a "regional" feel, with people from isolated units wearing obsolete items in manner no longer perscribed by the current regulations. 

And it's not just USAF style where issues exist.  Golf shirts get worn untucked and wrinkled because they were wadded up in the back seat since last week (a common justification for wearing that uniform is that it is so handy)  People wearing sandles with white/grays, or militay ribbons.  BBDUs with subdued badges (which I do know know if is allowed or not.

Again, squadron culture.

[Eclipse]

One field uniform with nothing but operational badges and a unit patch.

One dress uniform, period.

One flight suit.

Done.

There would be a wailing and gnashing of teeth, and then in a year we'd forget we ever had a problem.

[Major Carrales]

One field uniform with nothing but operational badges and a unit patch.

One dress uniform, period.

One flight suit.

Done.

There would be a wailing and gnashing of teeth, and then in a year we'd forget we ever had a problem.

A case could be made that an attempt to be as "inclusive" as possible has resulted in an array of chaos when it comes to uniforms.  It is one thing to have specialized uniform items for special purposes, however having so many uniforms for the reasons we do is inefficient.

It agree with your assessment.  But to have a sort of "one uniform" policy we would need to go the other way.  A uniform that is truly inclusive that everyone could wear. 

This is an issue I should point out, that each solution presents another problem which cannot be solved with out creating other problems.  Furthermore, the solutions that would work tends to create a situation where people are insulted.

We cannot win this with it's Catch-22 style issues.

[Eclipse]

Yes, that was the point, all inclusive.

Everyone involved needs to get over themselves, make some decisions and move on.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

One field uniform with nothing but operational badges and a unit patch.

One dress uniform, period.

One flight suit.

Done.

There would be a wailing and gnashing of teeth, and then in a year we'd forget we ever had a problem.

Am I in rare agreement with Eclipse?

Well, sort of. We have too many uniforms. The Air Force uniforms, we keep. The CAP-corporate uniforms, we whittle down to a comprehensible number. But heck, I'd be happy if we just allowed the specialty-track shields in only one position on the blues, and disallow the ES patch on any flight suit (it looks goofy, pun not intended, and bush-league worn on the FDU).

So, to recap: The Air Force uniforms. Then one set of uniforms for fat-fuzzy-lazy members. That's all. Think it's workable?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

One field uniform with nothing but operational badges and a unit patch.

One dress uniform, period.

One flight suit.

Done.

There would be a wailing and gnashing of teeth, and then in a year we'd forget we ever had a problem.

And some (NOT ME) would say we already have that.

One field uniform - BBDU.

One dress uniform, period - aviator combo/blazer.

One flight suit - blue utility suit or golf shirt and whatever trousers you decide to wear.

If we go down that road, and I pray we don't, because I can see the anti-military corporatists really pushing that as an "already-existing setup that won't tick the AF off, that would be (drumroll) distinctive, cheap and weed out the play-military types."

Then we would have even more aggro on our hands.  I know I am not the only one who dislikes the G/W but occasionally grudgingly wears it and who loathes the blazer setup.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

The "anti-military corporatists" have no sense of this organization's history, or they are all too willing to revise it. CAP's first uniforms were military. That we have uniforms at all is a legacy from the Army. We are part of the Air Force family, albeit the red-headed stepchild, and we should start acting like it.

[bflynn]

The "anti-military corporatists" have no sense of this organization's history, or they are all too willing to revise it.

Making assumptions about people is usually dangerous.  For example, you would consider me largely anti-military when it comes to CAP.  But my reasons have nothing to do with the organization's history, nor a willingness to revise it.  It has everything to do with friends and family who are never coming home again.  There is no romance in the military, no glory in it.  In the end, when used, the military is an ugly thing for an ugly, however necessary, purpose.  Until you've faced the very real possibility or experience of war (the purpose of the military), you cannot understand - and I think every veteran who has had this experience will back me up on that.

That said, I know that CAP wears uniforms and I'm willing to go with that because it's what is required to do work for my community.  But we must never forget that while the military and war is a necessary evil at time, it is none the less always an evil.

We are part of the Air Force family, albeit the red-headed stepchild, and we should start acting like it.

The air force or the stepchild?

[NCRblues]

There is no romance in the military, no glory in it.  In the end, when used, the military is an ugly thing for an ugly, however necessary, purpose.  Until you've faced the very real possibility or experience of war (the purpose of the military), you cannot understand - and I think every veteran who has had this experience will back me up on that.

I am a veteran with time in the great sandbox, and while I agree that no real glory comes from the carrying out of warfare, that has zero to do with CAP wearing the uniform of our parent service. There is no shame that comes with wearing the USAF style uniform. I for one am proud to be a veteran that did not retire and still gets to put on my chosen uniform and help out my nation.

I am an 'anti- corporatist' when it comes to CAP. I have seen people come to CAP looking for some sort of 'military glory' and they are quickly shown the door in my area. Enforce the rules; make it even handed across the board with no favors to anyone. Problem solved on our uniforms, make people responsible. A unit is "sloppy" in appearance; the wing king gives the squadron king a warning to fix it. They don't fix it, fire the squadron commander. It might be a volunteer organization, but you agree to play by the rules, and uniforms have rules that are just as enforceable as safety and CPPT.

[Major Carrales]

That said, I know that CAP wears uniforms and I'm willing to go with that because it's what is required to do work for my community.  But we must never forget that while the military and war is a necessary evil at time, it is none the less always evil.

"War" is an inherent element of society.  Society, is a reflection of the individual and, thus, the inherent nature of the individual to have conflict is amplified in a society.  Simply put, if two people can fight and go to blows over something or if one MAN is willing to kill another, even for food or livlihood in self-presernvation...then 20 people can fight 20 people and 200 million can fight 200,000 million.

In nature, creatures fight for survival. It is not "evil," no more than any other natural disaster is evil.  A hurricane destroys communities and kills even children as it moves up a coastline, but it is not evil.  War is not evil...in the same fashion.  War is conflict on the scale of society and nations.

Humanity is very arrogant to think that it could outlaw or put an end to WAR.  We are no more civilized or evolved than those that fought The CIVIL WAR, WWI or WWII.  Yet there are people going on televison and radio saying that we are so much more "enlightened" than any that have come before.  Careful, sometimes the brilliance of "enlightenment" blinds us to the true nature of MAN.   Ask those who were the League of Nations in the 1920s and 1930s.  Ask the Poles what happens when "enlightened people" don't meet aggression with strength.  The echos of Munich..."peace in our time" ring over the scattered ashes of those that truly succumbed to the true evils.    Ask Austian, Polish, Czech, and other Eastern European Jews, gypsies and political dessidents about what happens when a world does not stand up to agression.  Because people tried to avoid WAR...many died before things were mitigated.

It is the nature of MANKIND to fight...to want to survive.  And there are only two real types of such people, those that want to TAKE what others have or those that have to protect themselves.

My proof...?  Any reply in conflict of this post.  If two people on CAPTALK can violently (as much as this written exchange can provide) clash, then it can happen between any group.

Sorry, I enjoy philosphical debates.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Making assumptions about people is usually dangerous.  For example, you would consider me largely anti-military when it comes to CAP.  But my reasons have nothing to do with the organization's history, nor a willingness to revise it.  It has everything to do with friends and family who are never coming home again.  There is no romance in the military, no glory in it.  In the end, when used, the military is an ugly thing for an ugly, however necessary, purpose.  Until you've faced the very real possibility or experience of war (the purpose of the military), you cannot understand - and I think every veteran who has had this experience will back me up on that.

That said, I know that CAP wears uniforms and I'm willing to go with that because it's what is required to do work for my community.  But we must never forget that while the military and war is a necessary evil at time, it is none the less always an evil.

We are part of the Air Force family, albeit the red-headed stepchild, and we should start acting like it.

The air force or the stepchild?

Acting professional, to match Ma Blue, so no, not the stepchild! It can't be lip service. It has to be grounded in the Air Force's Core Values. Every member should read the Little Blue Book. When CAP adopted the Core Values, then added the fourth one (Respect) that's already included elsewhere, I think (and this may sound critical, sorry) that no one really understood the values as more than buzzwords. There was a lot of thought put into the values. Had they bothered to read them, I'm sure Respect would not have been tacked on. Of course, had we really taken them seriously, they'd be ingrained in every new senior member and retroactively into the rest of us.

There's a discussion over on LinkedIn (roll eyes here) about whether senior members should get moral leadership/character development classes. I don't think so; in fact, I think it's a little silly, because by the time we're adults, we should have ethics fairly well nailed down. But I think the Core Values and related doctrine need to be imparted and constantly reminded. They define what we should be, how we should live and what we should aspire to.

The link to the Little Blue Book: www.e-publishing.af.mil/shared/media/.../AFD-070906-003.pdf

My advice to everyone who reads this: Download it. Read it. Use it. Impart it. Understand it. Get used to it. Live by it.

Now, back to your initial point. I think you want to say there's no romance in war, not in the military itself. The military itself is not evil, though it certainly can be used for it when the wrong leadership emerges. I dare say the military has been the most moral, upstanding part of our society in the last few decades, and that only through social engineering and drastic budget cuts by politicians will it/has it be weakened. War is a necessary evil sometimes in our society, but the military is not in itself evil. It's a noble, honorable profession, the profession of arms, one that lives on honor, on duty, on mutual respect, on focus and on mission.

As for CAP, while we're volunteers, we volunteered to take orders. We volunteered to live by the rules. Bluntly, we are to live by the Core Values and act professional. The uniform is part of that; if we wear it wrong, we're insulting ourselves, our organization, the Air Force, even the very nation the uniform represents. I sincerely hope none of us feel differently.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

We are part of the Air Force family, albeit the red-headed stepchild, and we should start acting like it.

When did we go from this...



to this?



I started hearing the "red-haired stepchild" Bravo Sierra not long after I joined CAP.  I hate, loathe and despise the term (I used to be a stepchild, though I never had red hair) because it brings to mind (rightly or wrongly) that, in the eyes of most of the Air Force outside of the top brass, we are indeed just a bunch of uniformed Alfred E Neumans.

When did it get that way?

Personally, I loathe both extremes in CAP - on the one side, the "corporatist" mentality that says "disconnect from the Air Force" and fosters the kind of "I-should-be-apologetic-for-wearing-a-uniform-I-shouldn't-be-wearing-because-I'm-not-in-the-Air-Force," and on the other side says "I'm only in it to wear the uniform and cadge as many ribbons as I can."

Who gave us this "nickname," and how do we start refuting it?

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Easy, CyBorg. WARNING: This is going to be blunt. When we start taking standards to heart, enforce policy consistently and train our people to a higher standard, and when we stop giving out grade to people who aren't fit to wear it, maybe we can shed that.

I was in the blue-epaulet CAP. We've changed a lot, but the more I see the internal politics, the more I understand why the Air Force would distance itself. It's one big reason why the Board of Governors exists -- to rein in the capriciousness of former national commanders and staff who arbitrarily promote themselves or design new (and unnecessary) uniforms, or enact policy in ways they shouldn't. If they took the Core Values seriously enough to adopt them in CAP, the least they should've done is read them and internalize them, to understand what they are first.

You want discipline in the ranks? Leaders must first understand they're not above the policy they set.

You want adherence to policy? First, keep the policy updated, then lead by example. (There's no reason Susie Parker at HQ CAP should be the human 39-1 and updates. She has better things to do, I bet.)

You want to be professional? Enforce the rules and ensure everyone is up to snuff. No pencil-whipping. No fat people in the Air Force uniform, nor people who can't seem to figure out what a gigline is to save their lives. Yes, we want you to come serve in something greater than self, but the rules are the rules and you need to live by them.

Do we need to start from the beginning with the core values and doctrine, so we can have accurate and relevant policy that cascades? Of course. But that's going to take a push from the top, not the bottom. And when all this starts jelling, maybe we won't be the red-headed stepchildren anymore.

[av8tr1]

That said, I know that CAP wears uniforms and I'm willing to go with that because it's what is required to do work for my community.  But we must never forget that while the military and war is a necessary evil at time, it is none the less always evil.

"War" is an inherent element of society.  Society, is a reflection of the individual and, thus, the inherent nature of the individual to have conflict is amplified in a society.  Simply put, if two people can fight and go to blows over something or if one MAN is willing to kill another, even for food or livlihood in self-presernvation...then 20 people can fight 20 people and 200 million can fight 200,000 million.

In nature, creatures fight for survival. It is not "evil," no more than any other natural disaster is evil.  A hurricane destroys communities and kills even children as it moves up a coastline, but it is not evil.  War is not evil...in the same fashion.  War is conflict on the scale of society and nations.

Humanity is very arrogant to think that it could outlaw or put an end to WAR.  We are no more civilized or evolved than those that fought The CIVIL WAR, WWI or WWII.  Yet there are people going on televison and radio saying that we are so much more "enlightened" than any that have come before.  Careful, sometimes the brilliance of "enlightenment" blinds us to the true nature of MAN.   Ask those who were the League of Nations in the 1920s and 1930s.  Ask the Poles what happens when "enlightened people" don't meet aggression with strength.  The echos of Munich..."peace in our time" ring over the scattered ashes of those that truly succumbed to the true evils.    Ask Austian, Polish, Czech, and other Eastern European Jews, gypsies and political dessidents about what happens when a world does not stand up to agression.  Because people tried to avoid WAR...many died before things were mitigated.

It is the nature of MANKIND to fight...to want to survive.  And there are only two real types of such people, those that want to TAKE what others have or those that have to protect themselves.

My proof...?  Any reply in conflict of this post.  If two people on CAPTALK can violently (as much as this written exchange can provide) clash, then it can happen between any group.

Sorry, I enjoy philosphical debates.

Major, You took the words right out of my mouth.  Very well stated.

[AirDX]

in the eyes of most of the Air Force outside of the top brass, we are indeed just a bunch of uniformed Alfred E Neumans.

This is a drum you beat about as hard as RM beats the CIVIL thing.

And I don't get it, becasue I don't see it.

I work on an Air Force base (well, joint base now) and I deal with AD personnel day in and out.  Most of them, when CAP comes up and I tell what I do, are saying "Cool!"  The squadron I spend most of my time with meets on base, and we have a good measure of AD personnel on the rolls, ranging in grade from SrA to O-6.  I just don't get all this attitude.  Not a one has called me Alfred E. Neumann.  We get good support from the Guard here, and we have a homeland security mission that gives us visibility up to the 3-4 star level.  In fact, we not long ago pulled off a homeland security mission for the 13th AF/CC that the Guard couldn't due to other committments.  I didn't get called Alfred E. Neumann once at the planning meeting for that.

So, unless you can pony up some specifics, I'm chalking your opinion that "the Air Force is indifferent/hates us" to rumor and innuendo.  Sort of like a giant reaction to one idiot posting a comment to an AF Times article - you know the one I mean.

I'm one datapoint on one base, but my experience is first-hand, so I invite stories of first-hand experience at disrespect by AD AF members.  Remember, first-hand, not "I know a guy who knows a guy" kind of stuff.     

[abdsp51]

in the eyes of most of the Air Force outside of the top brass, we are indeed just a bunch of uniformed Alfred E Neumans.

This is a drum you beat about as hard as RM beats the CIVIL thing.

And I don't get it, becasue I don't see it.

I work on an Air Force base (well, joint base now) and I deal with AD personnel day in and out.  Most of them, when CAP comes up and I tell what I do, are saying "Cool!"  The squadron I spend most of my time with meets on base, and we have a good measure of AD personnel on the rolls, ranging in grade from SrA to O-6.  I just don't get all this attitude.  Not a one has called me Alfred E. Neumann.  We get good support from the Guard here, and we have a homeland security mission that gives us visibility up to the 3-4 star level.  In fact, we not long ago pulled off a homeland security mission for the 13th AF/CC that the Guard couldn't due to other committments.  I didn't get called Alfred E. Neumann once at the planning meeting for that.

So, unless you can pony up some specifics, I'm chalking your opinion that "the Air Force is indifferent/hates us" to rumor and innuendo.  Sort of like a giant reaction to one idiot posting a comment to an AF Times article - you know the one I mean.

I'm one datapoint on one base, but my experience is first-hand, so I invite stories of first-hand experience at disrespect by AD AF members.  Remember, first-hand, not "I know a guy who knows a guy" kind of stuff.     

So far here at Travis it has been good since I got back into the program.  Just the last couple of weeks we had the MSG in to present both and Earhart and Mitchell Awards to two of our cadets.  And you can be assured he had an idea of what we do and who we are and left with an even bigger picture of the organization after I spoke with him for about 20 minutes that night.  The Wg CC even had put his foot down and said give them NIPR access using token cards, but either the wg or region CAP-USAF liaison shot it down. 

Now on the other hand when I was a cadet there was a Col in Europe who will remain nameless who was closing youth programs down unless it was tied to MSS, chaplain, or DODEA.  And then said Col couldn't understand why so many of the base youth were getting into trouble.  Our squadron went through three meeting places in a year before we found a spot that was big enough and then some for us.  I think those units that have a poor relationship with AF either don't know why, don't care why or just don't bother talking to the powers to be.  My immediate supervisor knows of my CAP involvement, our ops superintendent know of it and they have had nothing but good things to say about it.  I think overall the relationship between units at the local level comes down to education, and just good ol fashion conversation.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Easy, CyBorg. WARNING: This is going to be blunt. When we start taking standards to heart, enforce policy consistently and train our people to a higher standard, and when we stop giving out grade to people who aren't fit to wear it, maybe we can shed that.

I can handle bluntness, as long as there is reason behind it, and you have.

I was in the blue-epaulet CAP. We've changed a lot, but the more I see the internal politics, the more I understand why the Air Force would distance itself. It's one big reason why the Board of Governors exists -- to rein in the capriciousness of former national commanders and staff who arbitrarily promote themselves or design new (and unnecessary) uniforms, or enact policy in ways they shouldn't. If they took the Core Values seriously enough to adopt them in CAP, the least they should've done is read them and internalize them, to understand what they are first.

I suppose I am one of those people with such a hearty distaste for political manoeuvering that I just distance myself from it.  I experienced it at the Wing/IG level, and it left a very bad taste in my mouth.  I am one of those "once bitten" types; when I first joined CAP two of my goals were to command a squadron and serve on wing staff.  After that experience all that changed (though I have been a deputy commander).

You want discipline in the ranks? Leaders must first understand they're not above the policy they set.

You want adherence to policy? First, keep the policy updated, then lead by example. (There's no reason Susie Parker at HQ CAP should be the human 39-1 and updates. She has better things to do, I bet.)

You want to be professional? Enforce the rules and ensure everyone is up to snuff. No pencil-whipping. No fat people in the Air Force uniform, nor people who can't seem to figure out what a gigline is to save their lives. Yes, we want you to come serve in something greater than self, but the rules are the rules and you need to live by them.

All well-taken.  Again, I suppose I was one of the "lucky ones" who started in a squadron where these things were enforced, as were customs & courtesies.  So much so that when I moved and joined a flying club senior squadron who did not wear uniforms half the time that it was a bit of a culture shock.

Do we need to start from the beginning with the core values and doctrine, so we can have accurate and relevant policy that cascades? Of course. But that's going to take a push from the top, not the bottom. And when all this starts jelling, maybe we won't be the red-headed stepchildren anymore.

And I say that again I try to do my bit on that front by policing my own conduct by making sure my own uniform is clean, pressed, within regs, with my ribbons and other badges in good repair, shoes shined, etc., and observe customs & courtesies, though sometimes I get a "huh?" look from other senior members when I salute them...there's somewhat of an unspoken attitude that such things are "for cadets."

in the eyes of most of the Air Force outside of the top brass, we are indeed just a bunch of uniformed Alfred E Neumans.

This is a drum you beat about as hard as RM beats the CIVIL thing.

And I don't get it, becasue I don't see it.

And point taken as well.  My opinion is based on my experiences - nothing more, nothing less.

However, I would differ from you on the part that RM "drum-beats" about the CIVIL Air Patrol, because he is advocating a vision for the organisation that has never existed, and I suppose I'm trying to find out just why we are where we are now, how we got there and how to get back to the days when our relationship with the AF was better (including uniforms) - if that is indeed possible.  Maybe it is, maybe not.

I have had the misfortune of living in states without major Air Force installations, or ones being closed (meaning: I haven't had the direct operational support of the AF experience you have had), and unfortunately I have had some bad experiences with some of the AF personnel I have met regarding CAP.  I have stated, and stand by those statements, that too many of the AF personnel I have encountered, including some SD's, only care about the cadet side of things, and senior members are just there to make sure cadets get their Mitchell so they can get their E-3.  How widespread that is I don't know, but I have witnessed it directly.

However, the cover story in the most recent Volunteer (the interview with Lt Gen Sid Clarke) was heartening.

Again, good contributions, all.

[bflynn]

in the eyes of most of the Air Force outside of the top brass, we are indeed just a bunch of uniformed Alfred E Neumans.

This is a drum you beat about as hard as RM beats the CIVIL thing.

And I don't get it, becasue I don't see it.

I don't see it either.  What I see is a lot of disagreement about what CAP is and what it should be.  I won't even attempt to categorize all the different options.

I think those who say we aren't professional enough are saying it because they truely believe that CAP should be a spit-n-shine military type unit, at least as close as we can get without being military.  That's their desire and they unconsciously adopt it as the goal.

Well, everyone has different goals, so everthing gets pulled one way or another.

And Major C - with respect sir, I don't think you really understood what I said.  When the military goes to work, the only good thing that comes out of it is when they stop.  Don't take this to mean that I'm afraid of it - as I said sometimes it's a necessary evil.  If it was necessary today, I'd go back and do it again.  It's still an evil.  It's not something to be emulated, lest we gloss over the horrors of war.

[Major Carrales]

And Major C - with respect sir, I don't think you really understood what I said.  When the military goes to work, the only good thing that comes out of it is when they stop.  Don't take this to mean that I'm afraid of it - as I said sometimes it's a necessary evil.  If it was necessary today, I'd go back and do it again.  It's still an evil.  It's not something to be emulated, lest we gloss over the horrors of war.

I understood what you meant, but elected to wax philosophical. 

One place I see misunderstanding is in your premise that taking pride in a uniform or traditions is somehow reveling in somesort of bloodlust for war.  There are many institutions that hold high what were once military traditions in civilian life.

Marching bands operate a lot like 19th century close order drill complete with uniforms that emulate that period.  American Football other versions of soccer (including basketball, hockey and the like) teach the idea of using military tactics and strategy on a field as was done in linear warfare.  Police and fire companies wear uniforms not unlike those, or derived, from military uniforms of the past.  Even chess, which is much maligined as the realm of the intellectual, teaches the methods of warfare from a past time.

Yet in all these examples, there is not BLOODLUST for war.  They are looked at with traditional reverence.  One day, despite my earlier post, there will be ways to mitigate conflict that do not require traditional war, but the traditional dress, methods and accoutrements will remain.  Reminders of the past, linking the efforts of the present to the actions of the past. 

Not everything link to the past is wrong.  I see this alot in modern times.  It's like people that won't watcha black and white movie out of some modern snobbery.  This deprives them of such richness...imagine that, not watching things like "The Three Stooges," "The Manchurian Candidate" and "Schindler's List" just because of some epic fail that is based on the such that I am describing.

CAP wear uniforms because back in the days of WWII it was a necessary to avoid being summarily executed while on sub duty.  We are steepted in tradition for that.  Those traditions will be maintained by people like myself and not changed because of some movement that would seek to change them merely for 1) change's sake or 2) becuase there is a hatred of tradition due to a false attempt to appear "progressive."

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

What I see is a lot of disagreement about what CAP is and what it should be.  I won't even attempt to categorize all the different options.

OK, I'll try, based on what I've experienced, in no particular order:

1. An unarmed volunteer reserve of the Air Force.
2. A youth group sponsored by the Air Force.
3. A search-and-rescue organisation.
4. A group of sub-chasers during WWII.
5. A community service organisation.
6. An emergency-services organisation with diminishing ties to the Air Force that it really doesn't need any more.
7. A group where adult members serve as "counsellors" for cadets (told to me directly).
8. A volunteer version of the Air Force Reserve.
9. A bunch of old farts who think they're in the Air Force and try to get salutes they're not entitled to.

That's all I can think of...will the real CAP please stand up?

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Maybe we start with clearing the slate and re-ordering our own doctrine as CAP, then by asking the Air Force, "what can we do for you?"

We already do a lot. Don't get me wrong. But if we really want that relationship with the Air Force that we so seek, we need to look at ways to augment them and be a force multiplier. The VSAF program sounded like it could have been a good idea, but I'm of the impression right now that no one really took it seriously. Conversely, look at that other auxiliary and tell me those guys don't find ways to get involved with their parent.

CyBorg, thanks for the thoughtful reply.

[bflynn]

Conversely, look at that other auxiliary and tell me those guys don't find ways to get involved with their parent.

They do, but probably because what the CGAux can do is very close to what the CG already does.

It's very difficult for us to get involved with AF activities because so much of what they do is inheriently different than what we can do.  Or what they do requires a high degree of skill that is very expensive to acquire.  To fly, fight and win in air, space and cyberspace is not exactly what we're charged by Congress to do.

[Major Carrales]

Conversely, look at that other auxiliary and tell me those guys don't find ways to get involved with their parent.

They do, but probably because what the CGAux can do is very close to what the CG already does.

It's very difficult for us to get involved with AF activities because so much of what they do is inheriently different than what we can do.  Or what they do requires a high degree of skill that is very expensive to acquire.  To fly, fight and win in air, space and cyberspace is not exactly what we're charged by Congress to do.

When I first joined CAP, there were Group Level CAP-USAF NCOs that attended our meetings/activities periodically.  This process ended with changes in the early 2000s.  Since the nearest USAF installation, asside from automated navigational places out in the deserts of southwest Texas, are in San Antonio (over 200 miles away) USAF culture is difficult to superimpose.  The VSAF program would be an inefficient program for members of the South Texas squadrons to participate in unless it was at recuiting centers.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

They do, but probably because what the CGAux can do is very close to what the CG already does.

To directly support the USCG, you have to have an additional security clearance above-and-beyond what you already have to go through to join the CGAUX.  I think it's Secret level, but I am not sure.  When I was in the Aux, that was a big controversy...that the Aux was moving to a "two-tier" level of membership of those who could augment and those who could not.  I do not know if it has cooled down any, but a few people (I do not know numbers) who had been augmenting left the Aux because of this additional requirement...it went back to the "why should I go through with having my soul picked apart to sweep floors at a LORAN station?"  All right, years ago I did have my life picked apart (and still have the DD398 to prove it!) because the ANG required it of me (and one of the DIS chaps phoned a lifelong friend of mine and scared the crap out of him!), but I doubt I would want to go through that again unless I were in the Real Military or a defence contract worker.

Also, unless you live on one of the coasts or the Great Lakes, you are not going to find much augmentation opportunities, especially since the LORAN stations were shuttered.  Also, I have heard that AuxAir pretty much exists on paper only these days.  It is difficult to find opportunities to work with the CG if you live in the middle of Kansas.

It's very difficult for us to get involved with AF activities because so much of what they do is inheriently different than what we can do.

Years ago, there were AF rescue squadrons, mostly equipped with helos, though some had C-130s.  That got shifted to the ANG and AFRES, and now most of the "rescue" squadrons in the USAF are CSAR.  There was some basic overlap with CAP back then, and in fact I remember a retired Reservist who said CAP sometimes helped them out with SAR (this was decades ago).

When I first joined CAP, there were Group Level CAP-USAF NCOs that attended our meetings/activities periodically.  This process ended with changes in the early 2000s. 

I remember those days and I miss them.  That was a real, tangible link to the Air Force.  It has not served either organisation well to have that terminated.

Since the nearest USAF installation, asside from automated navigational places out in the deserts of southwest Texas, are in San Antonio (over 200 miles away) USAF culture is difficult to superimpose.  The VSAF program would be an inefficient program for members of the South Texas squadrons to participate in unless it was at recuiting centers.

I was a bit incredulous when I first read this because Texas is full of AF installations: Lackland, Randolph, etc., but south Texas does not have any of those, and since Texas is such a big state (I remember driving across it with my father on I-10 back in the early '70s and it seemed like it went on for infinity) it would be difficult logistically to get to those installations for someone down toward the Rio Grande.

However, except for the recruiting offices the Major mentioned, a lot of states are losing/have lost a significant number of Air Force installations.

A lot of states just have one ANG base and that's it.

[Major Carrales]

I was a bit incredulous when I first read this because Texas is full of AF installations: Lackland, Randolph, etc., but south Texas does not have any of those, and since Texas is such a big state (I remember driving across it with my father on I-10 back in the early '70s and it seemed like it went on for infinity) it would be difficult logistically to get to those installations for someone down toward the Rio Grande..

I am glad you saw to it to be reasonable about that statement.  One thing hard to understand, even to Texans, is the logistical nightmare that is Texas to CAP.  Even getting cadets to encampments...many times 14 to 17 hours away (one WAY!)...adds a good $300 in fuel costs.  Brownsville to Paris, Texas.

In fact, to the point of the latter (which is drift) I whould support the idea of the old CLASS B encampments for large states.  Or "Encampment North" and "Encampment South."

Back to topic...UNIFORMS!!!!

[a2capt]

Texas, California, Alaska ... Hawaii ... fairly uniform in terms of distance issues. In the case of three of them, anyway, I'd say there's great chance of violations of vehicle code en-route across them, too.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I must agree with you Bflynn, I have spent a good bit of time in theater, and spending enough time in actual combat, losing brothers. I also know of taking another life in combat, and the biggest thing to remember is that there really is no glory in war. You can earn medals, but it is still not glorious. These awards are tokens of appreciation for what you have done, but they are nothing when you really think of the grand scheme. They mean a lot to you, they mean a lot to your family, but they lose their meaning to you when you think about what you did to earn them. The glory really fades when you think about what you have done, taking a brother, son, husband, father from their family. And really when you think about half of the men you are fighting, people doing the same exact thing you would do in the same situation, half of them are Doug what they think is right. They think that all they are doing is trying to protect their homes family and neighborhood.

But at this same time, I cannot say in any manner that the reason and purpose for wearing the USAF style uniforms is void in any way nowadays. I look at it like this...

I wear the uniform not for myself, but for those who have worn it before me. I wear it as professionally as possible so that I may bring hen honor by continuing their traditions. I try to instill this same way of thinking in those around me, especially the cadets.

When you think about what the purpose is for a military uniform is, it gets much easier to support it, and to desire to wear it. The tradition, the pride, and honoring those who have worn it before you.

The military really is a necessary evil. And in order for there to be good, there must be evil. It is the same reasoning behind the thought of needing pain to feel pleasure. Without the full spectrum there cannot be one or the other. For there to be the peace that everyone loves and desires, there must be war. It is a sad truth, but one that must be embraced to bring yourself to terms with the world. I knew this from a rather young age, at about 12 I knew that I wanted to be in the military, when I was asked why when I was 13, is was replied to with just raised eyebrows, and an oh, and they walked away. My answer was because I know that in order for there to be pleasure there must be pain, and peace is pleasure, so war must be met to have peace and pleasure, and I was willing to go through the pain for others to have pleasure.

I think I got off topic and can't really remember where I was going with this, so it might be revised in another post later on, but I hope I wasn't too out of the ball park.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I wear the USAF uniform in CAP and take it as a great honour and privilege bestowed upon me by the USAF.  Hence, I always try to wear it as per regs.

I don't wear it because I see myself as some sort of "great warrior," because I'm not.  I'm a 46-year-old guy with grey/white/silver hair (what there is left of it)

I also wear it as a mark of distinction of being in the "Air Force Family," though the feeling of "family" has waned over the past decade or so.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I also wear it as a mark of distinction of being in the "Air Force Family," though the feeling of "family" has waned over the past decade or so.

It really has, and it saddens me. I wonder how it would go over with the Air Force if we were to try to figure out a national commercial, bringing us back in the spotlight. Really try to drive ourselves back to where we were when we had those really neat recruiting posters. When we had a more recognizable image in the public. We need a better logo than what NHQ got recently. It is nice, but not fitting for the USAF Aux. we need something. That showed who we really are and what we do, more than looking like a flying club. I am willing to bet that were we to have a more public image and if we were more recognizable we would be able to do away with the stigma of these "massive uniform and etiquette issues".

We would probably have to tighten our look upon the regulations, and really enforce them strongly.

If your haircut isn't in reg, o home until it is, missing your nameplate cadet? Be in civvies until it is fixed.

And the one that scares people so much... Oh, you demanded a salute from an active duty airman? Get lost.

I don't see that one happening, in fact I havent seen it happen at all that I can think of. But it scares some people including USAF so muh that they have put us in grey uniforms and nameplates. No, that does not bother me, but it serves as a constant reminder that a few messed up in the past, and now we are all punished for it.

I don't know what should be done to try to motivate the ball to roll, should letters be sent to national, or should they be sent to CAP-USAF, or if there would be a better way to go about it.

[krnlpanick]

I don't know what should be done to try to motivate the ball to roll, should letters be sent to national, or should they be sent to CAP-USAF, or if there would be a better way to go about it.

The best way to affect change in any organization is to increase your level of involvement - contact your wing and see how you can get more involved in CAP-USAF relationship. The only recommendation I can make specific to CAP is don't bypass the chain of command.

Take my advice FWIW as a CAP newb tho - I am mainly speaking from experience in other organizations that I have belonged to

[RiverAux]

To directly support the USCG, you have to have an additional security clearance above-and-beyond what you already have to go through to join the CGAUX.  I think it's Secret level, but I am not sure. 

Well, it depends on the type of augmenting you're doing on whether or not you have to go through the additional security check.  But, if you do, you don't end up with an actual security clearance unless the CG specifically says you need it for what you're going to do for them (fairly rare situation). 

[bflynn]

To directly support the USCG, you have to have an additional security clearance above-and-beyond what you already have to go through to join the CGAUX.  I think it's Secret level, but I am not sure. 

Well, it depends on the type of augmenting you're doing on whether or not you have to go through the additional security check.  But, if you do, you don't end up with an actual security clearance unless the CG specifically says you need it for what you're going to do for them (fairly rare situation).

Interesting - beyond the FOUO classifications that we have does CAP ever work in the classified realm?

[RogueLeader]

To directly support the USCG, you have to have an additional security clearance above-and-beyond what you already have to go through to join the CGAUX.  I think it's Secret level, but I am not sure. 

Well, it depends on the type of augmenting you're doing on whether or not you have to go through the additional security check.  But, if you do, you don't end up with an actual security clearance unless the CG specifically says you need it for what you're going to do for them (fairly rare situation).

Interesting - beyond the FOUO classifications that we have does CAP ever work in the classified realm?

Counter drug. But it is all off topic. 

[RiverAux]

Eservices has a module to track clearances but it hasn't been needed for even some of the semi-secret squirrel stuff that the PAOs aren't allowed to talk about it, but is fairly well-known within CAP.  If its done, it has got to be really rare, but thats getting a little off topic.

CD stuff isn't classified.

[Eclipse]

Interesting - beyond the FOUO classifications that we have does CAP ever work in the classified realm?

Yes - some HLS missions fall into that category, and many members maintain security clearances.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The best way to affect change in any organization is to increase your level of involvement - contact your wing and see how you can get more involved in CAP-USAF relationship.

I still think it would be difficult for those not living near an AF/ANG/AFRC installation.  And with the Guard and Reserve, how much help are they going to need except on drill weekends or assisting with mobilisation, and wouldn't that be stepping on SDF's toes (for those states who have an Air SDF)?

Helping out in a recruiter's office could be an option...if nothing else, a recruiter can set you straight on uniform protocols! :clap:

Also, given the drastic reduction in State Directors (I think all we're going to have is Region Directors), how would we make contact with the AF by going through channels (NOTE: I do NOT recommend NOT going through channels!!!)?

Captain Cyrus Borg tells his Squadron CC, Major Goldleaf, that he wants to help out with the AF.

Major Goldleaf tells Captain Borg that he hasn't the foggiest idea how to go about it, but he'll send it up the chain.  Major Goldleaf tells Group Commander Lieutenant Colonel Silverleaf the Captain's request.  Lt Col Silverleaf is just as perplexed, but he takes it to the Wing CC, Colonel Silverbird.  Col Silverbird doesn't know of any opportunities, but because he likes Captain Borg, he contacts Region Commander Colonel Eaglebird.  Colonel Eaglebird talks to the Region CAP-USAF liaison, who tells him that there really isn't much that the USAF could use an individual CAP member to do, and if so they would prefer to use cadets.

So what are the chances of Captain Borg's request getting lost somewhere along the line (due to human error) as opposed to the situation outlined above?

[Eclipse]

Also, given the drastic reduction in State Directors (I think all we're going to have is Region Directors), how would we make contact with the AF by going through channels (NOTE: I do NOT recommend NOT going through channels!!!)?

Anyone can walk into a USAF office (assuming you have access), and offer to help as a citizen of this fine country, however any official involvement
of a CAP member with the military is supposed to have the approval and involvement of the SD's LRADOs.  They are just people, busier then before, but they all have phones and email.

There's nothing wrong with making the contacts and setting the framework in advance, but having them find out in a staff meeting that a member is doing something they are unaware of is a great way to see that you're told to knock it off.

And as you say, if the need existed, they'ed be asking.  The new structure is going to bring all sorts of new opportunities on the volunteer side of the house, but seriously, what is the average member going to assist the USAF with in a way which stays in CAP's lane?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I agree, if the need was there, the AF would be asking, but we have to take into consideration that there is a big chunk of the AF who doesn't know who we are, and I also believe that their request for assistance would be for older cadets, because (say) a recruiter might have heard the stories and rumours and SSgt Recruiter doesn't want to get into a "pulling rank" situation with Lieutenant Colonel Olderman, even though per regs no such dynamic exists.

Nonetheless, I believe that closer interaction with the Air Force would be beneficial, both for us and the Air Force.  Familiarity may breed contempt, but unfamiliarity breeds Bravo Sierra.  So many AF members only know of us through the stories and rumours of trolling for salutes, when that is an extremely small percentage of our membership pulling such idiocy.  If the Air Force would have some sort of CAP-Augment function where we truly worked together, they would most likely see that CAP in the main is made up of dedicated volunteers who really would jump at the chance of helping the Air Force.

About a decade or so back, I had a conversation with an ANG SMSgt (great guy) who was also in CAP.  The SDF did not have an air wing, and we got on the subject of how the SDF's would assume operation of armouries, but what about ANG facilities?  The SMSgt's reply:

"I thought that was one thing Civil Air Patrol would do."

To the best of my knowledge, the only states with active Air SDF's are Texas, California and Oregon (not sure about the last one).  There is absolutely no reason why we could not be employed in a similar way with the Air Force, ANG (federal status) and AFRC.

On the subject of uniforms, we could certainly learn a lot from (for example) a recruiter, since they have to look spit-and-polish all the time.

[RiverAux]

In terms of flying SDF air wings you're only looking at Alaska, Virginia, and possibly Vermont.  Texas and California are probably the only ones that are significantly involved in providing support to their Air NG.

Sort of way off topic though.

[Eclipse]

If the Air Force would have some sort of CAP-Augment function where we truly worked together, they would most likely see that CAP in the main is made up of dedicated volunteers who really would jump at the chance of helping the Air Force.

That's the key, "working together", in the same way the USAF would work with any other service organization or even contractors.  The VSAF program really had nothing to do with CAP, other than being the potential labor pool, and I would say that on the CAP side, that was a big factor in the resounding crickets.

And seriously, if, by the random chance, a CAP Major were to get assigned to work with a USAF Capt or NCO, is it the end of the world if, as a "thank you" for the free labor and service, the USAF people said "Sir" or saluted at whatever frequency was customary for the others in that duty situation?  Will good order and discipline break down immediately and chaos reign?

There's plenty of goobers to go around, but scaling your program to try and circumvent the "Goober Factor" defeats you before you start. 

I've had more than my CAP-Share in dealing with the military, and have never been treated with anything but respect and professionalism, in
fact, I don't know anyone personally who has ever had a negative experience with military personnel, and my wing has two Major Command bases
with a lot of CAP activity, but to hear some tell it, some military personnel treat CAP worse then they would treat the soda delivery guy, certainly
unacceptable on any level if these situations are true.

[lordmonar]

you know all this talk about working together.....has anyone ever thought about how the air force "works together" interally?

Even on the same base various squadrons and workcenters within the same squadron have very little idea what the other really does.

In-fact when different squadrons have to work together creates some of the most spectatular head butting known to man.

Just look at the "rivalry" between flying squadrons and maintenance squadorns.  Both ops and maintainers are always complaining that the other side does not understand their jobs...and that they are working at cross purposes.

So....while I think it would be good to find way CAP can help the USAF more directly....the idea that we would improve our relationship by it....I think is a little idealistic.

YMMV.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Idealism is better than cynisism, and definitely better than pessimism.

If you want to go ahead and throw the idea of being more inline with and closer to USAF out the window, then oh we'll. But I know there are plenty of us who believe its possible, and only takes work. And I'm pretty sure that given time and effort it will get better. The only thing that will kill us is all of the naysayers and whiners and cynics. Not to mention those who for some reason who want us as far from USAF as possible... And you know how I feel about that.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

That's the key, "working together", in the same way the USAF would work with any other service organization or even contractors.  The VSAF program really had nothing to do with CAP, other than being the potential labor pool, and I would say that on the CAP side, that was a big factor in the resounding crickets.

The VSAF was certainly not an invite for CAP to participate, at least not specifically.

And seriously, if, by the random chance, a CAP Major were to get assigned to work with a USAF Capt or NCO, is it the end of the world if, as a "thank you" for the free labor and service, the USAF people said "Sir" or saluted at whatever frequency was customary for the others in that duty situation?  Will good order and discipline break down immediately and chaos reign?

It absolutely would not be the end of the world.  I would take it as a great honour.  I suppose a lot of my cautiousness regarding that issue has to do with the time I joined CAP (right after the Harwell self-promotion/incidents of CAP officers trolling for salutes/berry boards).  Much of my Level I was having it drilled into me again and again that we, CAP, are only allowed to wear the USAF uniform by the good graces of the USAF, that those good graces were recently abused terribly, and now we are being punished for it...to avoid that happening again (or worse), tread lightly whenever you are around Air Force personnel...and our CAP ranks account for little to nothing of them.

There's plenty of goobers to go around, but scaling your program to try and circumvent the "Goober Factor" defeats you before you start. 

Or "wannabe factor."   I think I know what you're getting at.

As I've said, when I'm on an Air Force installation in the USAF style uniform, I often feel the need to apologise for all the "goobers" in CAP who have sullied the waters between us and the AF in the past by doing stupid things.

I've had more than my CAP-Share in dealing with the military, and have never been treated with anything but respect and professionalism, in
fact, I don't know anyone personally who has ever had a negative experience with military personnel, and my wing has two Major Command bases
with a lot of CAP activity, but to hear some tell it, some military personnel treat CAP worse then they would treat the soda delivery guy, certainly
unacceptable on any level if these situations are true.

I've had plenty of much-appreciated respect from military personnel...the majority of it coming from Army (especially National Guard), Navy, Marine Corps and Coast Guard personnel.  I've had a few "warm fuzzies" from AF personnel but most of my experience has been indifference, except in the early days of my CAP membership.  I do remember sitting in a base Burger King with a few other CAP members and overhearing some Airmen say "why do those 'CAPpies' get to use our facilities?"  I wasn't the only one that overheard it.

I'm not saying that AF maltreatment of CAP personnel is widespread, or that it even exists outside of a cluster of some antisocial types who probably don't even like themselves anyway.  As I've said, my experience with AF personnel has generally been indifference.

But who is to make the determination that it is "unacceptable on any level" (I agree with that statement, incidentally)?  After all, if we are partners with the AF, we are most definitely the junior partner.

RiverAux: To me this ties in with uniforms because uniforms have been such a contentious issue, especially between CAP and the AF.

So....while I think it would be good to find way CAP can help the USAF more directly....the idea that we would improve our relationship by it....I think is a little idealistic.

Sir, you misunderstand me if you are saying I am an idealist!   I am one of the most hardbitten cynics you would ever meet.

Yes, having been ANG, I do know a bit about how different units on the same base work (or not) together, though maybe the Guard isn't the best example because people tend to be in the same Guard unit a lot longer than AD AF personnel are in their units, especially if they're AGR types.

So, I would turn the question back: How do you think the relationship could be improved, or do you think it cannot, and we would do better to just accept things (including the distance between us and our parent service) as they are?

[Eclipse]

But who is to make the determination that it is "unacceptable on any level" (I agree with that statement, incidentally)?  After all, if we are partners with the AF, we are most definitely the junior partner.

I don't see myself, or CAP, as "junior anything", at the level we're discussing.  There are chains of command and authority, and everyone needs to abide by those, and like everything else, the "who gets what toys" decisions are generally made well above the rank and file on either side.

By Goober Factor I was also also referring to those on the military side who choose to make themselves feel better by belittling someone else, whether its CAP, a contractor, or someone from another service.  Carrying a CAC card does not automatically give your opinion any more weight or authority then anyone else in line at the Subway, but many in CAP are so unsure of their own place, that they automatically give more deference then necessary or appropriate to the opinions of those in uniform, simply and only because of the uniform.

Tangential to Lord's point about difficulties with intra-service cooperation, there's always been good-natured (and sometimes otherwise) rivalries between the services as well.  The "fix" for that is being confident enough to know that you, as a member, are in the proper place, acting as you should, and serving your country.

As a mature adult, with silver oaks on my shoulders, and plenty of BTDT bling on my wall, I'm not inclined to be too concerned about what a random NCO who has no authority over me, or even a need to interact, thinks, or doesn't think, about where I'm eating lunch, or whether I get saluted, or any greeting at all.  Negative comments, or worse, of course, are not acceptable on the basic respect and integrity level, but beyond that, some people simply do not work and play well with others, and it's not likely anything to do with CAP, anyway.

If it impacts something I'm involved with negatively, then I'll address as necessary, otherwise, we, as members, need to be confident in our place in the universe and try not to be so thin-skinned.

Now, if you go around trolling salutes, or trying to do anything else outside your lane, then you deserve the whole load of bricks on your head, but
these situations should be handled on a per-Goober basis, just as they are in the military, not a blanket indictment of everyone, on either side of the
discussion.

[lordmonar]

Idealism is better than cynisism, and definitely better than pessimism.

If you want to go ahead and throw the idea of being more inline with and closer to USAF out the window, then oh we'll. But I know there are plenty of us who believe its possible, and only takes work. And I'm pretty sure that given time and effort it will get better. The only thing that will kill us is all of the naysayers and whiners and cynics. Not to mention those who for some reason who want us as far from USAF as possible... And you know how I feel about that.

The problem is...I don't think that we are out of line or not close to the USAF.

I think that we are just like any other squadron on base.  We do our job...seperate from the guys at the CE squadron, Comm Squadorn, Secruity Forces Squadorn, Med Group, MPF, Logistics Squadron, Flying squadrons.

When we do work together......in my experince.....the AD/RES/NG USAF is usually impressed with what we can do, how well we do it, and are totally faberglasted that we PAY for the privilage to do it.

YMMV

[Eclipse]

When we do work together......in my experince.....the AD/RES/NG USAF is usually impressed with what we can do, how well we do it, and are totally faberglasted that we PAY for the privilage to do it.

This has been my experience as well.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Agreed, I have always had good if not great experiences working with AF units in CAP, but that is not what I am referring to when I speak of USAF. I mean the top echelons, they are where we have the disconnect, and that is what needs to be fixed. It seems to me that really no actual attention gets paid to CAP by top USAF, the decision makers, except when it comes to budget, we get input and guidance by CAP-USAF, but it seems that is where it stops.

Uniforms are the least of the concern here, it seems like to me, that we exist, and that is enough for them, not much is really done to further our name or usefulness. Don't get me wrong, we get good equipment... It is difficult for some reason to explain what I see as the deficiency.

But I do see a deficiency, and it seems like it takes us to fill in the gap between CAP and the top of the USAF. I don't know what made things go the way they have, but we used to be closer knit than we are now.

[abdsp51]

Here's a question which level of AF is the concern AETC CC, Air University CC, CSAF, SECAF who?  I know when I was a cadet there was just CAP not corporate CAP and the USAF Aux.  The top leaders for AF have a lot on their plates, with the multiple spectrums they are looking at.  I still think that if we want an improved relationship we have to work towards it, and that we as the organization should those first steps if they have not been taken already to improve it.

[FW]

Here's a question which level of AF is the concern AETC CC, Air University CC, CSAF, SECAF who?  I know when I was a cadet there was just CAP not corporate CAP and the USAF Aux.  The top leaders for AF have a lot on their plates, with the multiple spectrums they are looking at.  I still think that if we want an improved relationship we have to work towards it, and that we as the organization should those first steps if they have not been taken already to improve it.

A very good question.  The CAP-USAF chain goes thru the Holm Center, AU, AETC, CSAF and SECAF.  However, the BoG is appointed, in part, by the SECAF directly.  Our "funding" comes from congress thru  an OMB grant process controlled by a "grants officer" working in the CAP-USAF office. Now, if you can explain the interactions of all with the leadership of CAP, you may be on to something which "Board Source" spent months to distill and report on...

[lordmonar]

Agreed, I have always had good if not great experiences working with AF units in CAP, but that is not what I am referring to when I speak of USAF. I mean the top echelons, they are where we have the disconnect, and that is what needs to be fixed. It seems to me that really no actual attention gets paid to CAP by top USAF, the decision makers, except when it comes to budget, we get input and guidance by CAP-USAF, but it seems that is where it stops.

Uniforms are the least of the concern here, it seems like to me, that we exist, and that is enough for them, not much is really done to further our name or usefulness. Don't get me wrong, we get good equipment... It is difficult for some reason to explain what I see as the deficiency.

But I do see a deficiency, and it seems like it takes us to fill in the gap between CAP and the top of the USAF. I don't know what made things go the way they have, but we used to be closer knit than we are now.

Well I know that 1st AF and COMACC gets daily beifing on CAP operations and readiness.  Beyond Holmes Center and CAP-USAF they are just too busy doing other things to really worry about CAP.  It is the same thing that I discribed about squadron interaction at a USAF wing level.  Commanders at that level don't have time to worry about USAF units below the wing.....they just don't have the time to give CAP attention....unless it is affecting their budget or their operations.

It is true....that the rank and file USAF personnel hardly know that CAP exisits, let alone what we actually do.  But that is true for just about every other organisation....everyone is mostly worried about how they affect them.

I spent 22 years as a Comm guy....I did not worry about planes...expect when I had to ride on one to get to where I was going to do my job.  Figher squadons worry about Comm when their computers or phones don't work.

IMHO there really is not a problem with the USAF's relationship with us....except at the CAP-USAF level.  And from the CAP-USAF officers that I have interacted with....for the most part....what they don't get is the amount of politics and how long it takes CAP to affect changed once it has been pointed out.

I am hopeful that a lot of that will change with the BoG's governance changes.

[PA Guy]

I have been in CAP a long time.  My first uniform was shade 1 khaki, not 505 or 1505 but cotton khaki.  While some on here have waxed poetic about how cosy we used to be with the AF that has never been my experience.  Sure in the 60s-90s we got more direct support but that was simply due to the availability of resources.  We often got airlift because there were many AFR and ANG units still flying C-119s, C-123s and C-124s etc that were starved for missions.  There were still a lot of bases with WW II barracks.  There were a whole lot more AF bases in general.  People need to take a look at how many AF bases their state's have lost in the last 40 yrs.  Remember when all most all Corp. vehicles were POS that were worn out when we got them from DRMO?  Or how about the worn out Corp aircraft like the L-16, L-5, O-1 and T-34s?

This isn't all a matter of the AF not loving us anymore.  The AF has been in a shooting war for 10 yrs!! They are doing it with fewer aircraft, personnel, bases and money.  They are over extended in almost every area of their ops.  Could it be that they have more important things on their mind other than CAP and what color epaulets we wear?  We have never been the Air Force's best buddy but if they could give us something that didn't cost them anything they did.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I know when I was a cadet there was just CAP not corporate CAP and the USAF Aux.

And that, in a nutshell, is the problem.

We have developed this schizoid nature.

Corporate CAP, Inc. v. USAF Auxiliary.

AUX ON/AUX OFF.  No more "USAF AUX" on our airplanes, as opposed to this L-16 which even says "U.S. Air Force" on the empennage!



Of course, probably the most visible manifestation of this schizoid nature is...you guessed it...UNIFORMS!

I wonder what some of these types who say "you want to look like the Air Force, join the Air Force" would have said when we did look like the Air Force and there weren't any "corporate" uniform options, back in the day before CAP discovered its love affair with grey?

[lordmonar]

Who has developed this schizoid problem?

Not in my wing, not in my unit.  We are always CAP and we are always the USAF auxillary.

We may not always be covered by USAF insurance......but that does not change the way we do buisness. 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Regardless of which we are under, USAF Aux, or corporate, we should carry ourselves in the same manner as we always have. Personally I can't stand the fact that we have an Aux on Aux off switch, but we have to deal with what we have.

Maybe, just maybe since we can, we should market ourselves as the USAF Aux, and not a private corporation, and the idea of us being a private organization will fall by the wayside, even though we have private organization entities. Our governance can stay the same, it works. Conduct ourselves with the pride and discipline of the USAF personnel that we strive to be family with, and the gray eppaulets will be a thing of the past, and the berry board era will not even be a memory but in a history book.

I remember in high school when we were studying WWII, CAP came in to the history lesson about Civil Defense, and I was able to give a decent little blurb in class about it. But, that sort of significance will likely never come again in CAP, because these are different times with different values. Even though that is likely true, we should still conduct ourselves as if the day will come again soon of the public posters and utter necessity of the CAP. Quit calling ourselves just volunteers. But instead instill in the public and USAF an image of ourselves as unpaid professionals.

The difference in a volunteer and an unpaid professional is HUGE.

A volunteer is largely an amateur that is ok at what they do, but isn't good enough to be paid for it. Thy give of their time to help the mission, but are largely a warm body for the count.

An unpaid professional is someone who is good at what thy do, they show up looking good and prepared for the mission. Thy are not simply a warm body, and they do not just add to the count. They bring their expertise and heir determination and they accomPlish the mission because hey know it is up to them. But they don't do it to be paid, they don't do it for accolades, they do it because they desire to further the cause, they do it because they know they can, and have trained hard. They do it because quite simply they love their community and they are patriots.

An amateur is someone who trains until they get it right, but a professional trains until hey can't get it wrong. One of you told me that, and I have started brining that into every aspect that I can with the cadets.

Let's be unpaid professionals, not volunteers. Let us make the difference in what the USAF sees in the Civil Air Patrol, their USAf Auxiliary. The ones who further their missions in the community. The future of the United States of America. Because that is what we do. We are not a breeding ground for soldiers and Airmen, but a good portion of cadets do move forward in life to be Soldiers and Airmen. But every one of them comes out of the cadet program expected to be stronger of body and mind and to have a patriotic presence in the world. Some move on to be CEOs, some Congrssmen, some senators, but all are expected to be productive members of society. And yes, I do believe this takes a military structure to accomplish. That is what did it for me, and I see that same thing doing it for the cadets I lead, I do lead with a military mindset, not a drill sergeant, but a military instructor. I do not lead with a hard hand, but a firm belief that they can take another step forward each and every day. And we as senior members should be able to do the same.

If we are to improve the image of the CAP, then we must all take te first step. And by mentioning the color of our epaulets, no id not really mean the color of our epaulets. I use that as a reference to how the USAF sees us. It was a great image with blue, it was a POOR image with maroon, but it is a better image with gray. But let's make it a blue image again.

[Mama K.]

@All:  Whenever I notice some one not wearing the CAP uniform properly -- Due to weight, lack of attention to detail, etc. -- it is irritating. If all seniors cannot properly dress themselves, it is an awful lot to expect of the cadets. Luckily, I think most seniors care enough to try and abide by regs. CAP is a wonderful organization so I hope Command will continue to demand that all members abide by the given standards while understanding that not all have the same level of disposable income regarding uniform changes. Just my 2 cents...         

[RADIOMAN015]

@All:  Whenever I notice some one not wearing the CAP uniform properly -- Due to weight, lack of attention to detail, etc. -- it is irritating. If all seniors cannot properly dress themselves, it is an awful lot to expect of the cadets. Luckily, I think most seniors care enough to try and abide by regs. CAP is a wonderful organization so I hope Command will continue to demand that all members abide by the given standards while understanding that not all have the same level of disposable income regarding uniform changes. Just my 2 cents...         

I have seen members wearing the golf shirt combination incorrectly (try this one a member wearing his grey CAP name tag on the blue golf shirt)  I have just about surrendered on trying to fix this except as the PAO when the media is around :angel:.   Sometimes even with the TV news media, they will do the interview with the person I've selected (great uniform and grooming) and than decide to do some pan shots of the entire activity and that can sometimes be risky

BTW, I don't even think any of these uniform issues are done purposely, it's just that the members has so much going on in their lives that they make errors/forget to do things
RM
   

         

[AirDX]

A volunteer is largely an amateur that is ok at what they do, but isn't good enough to be paid for it.

Oh BS.  There were lots of people assisted and whose property was saved when I was on a couple of different VOLUNTEER fire departments - trained and certified to the exact same standards as our paid bretheren, and frequently as classmates.

I am a volunteer shelter manager for the American Red Cross.  I am not a loser who can't quite get a job as a shelter manager.  There just isn't a call to have folks on the payroll to do that, the need is too infrequent.  So we train, and stand by.  Sort of like CAP - train, and stand by.  Be ready to do our jobs.  Professionally.

So... no. 

[abdsp51]

Violations can be deterred with mentor-ship and reading the dang manual and having some integrity.  We have worn grey since the mid 90's and is much better than the berry boards.  During SLS I can not count how many uniform violations I saw among my class.  We have the AF style uniforms and the corp I guess you can call it.  I prefer the USAF style over the rest but have had to resort to the golf shirt combo on a couple of occasions.  One way to clear up any and most violations is educate the membership and have an updated uniform manual that is clear and concise. 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

A volunteer is largely an amateur that is ok at what they do, but isn't good enough to be paid for it.

Oh BS.  There were lots of people assisted and whose property was saved when I was on a couple of different VOLUNTEER fire departments - trained and certified to the exact same standards as our paid bretheren, and frequently as classmates.

I am a volunteer shelter manager for the American Red Cross.  I am not a loser who can't quite get a job as a shelter manager.  There just isn't a call to have folks on the payroll to do that, the need is too infrequent.  So we train, and stand by.  Sort of like CAP - train, and stand by.  Be ready to do our jobs.  Professionally.

So... no.

Ok, maybe it wasn't clear, these are my thoughts. To me, a "volunteer" sheriff isn't a volunteer if they know what they are doing and thy are professional, they are an unpaid sheriff, a "volunteer" fireman isn't a volunteer, they are an unpaid professional.

A true volunteer is someone who shows up because they saw an add in the newspaper saying they need volunteers for an event happening this Saturday, and thy show up in flip flops and shorts. That is a volunteer, a professional is someone who trains for what they do. An unpaid professional is someone who trains for what they do, but doesn't get paid for it. So, no, not BS.

I am not simply a volunteer, I train for what I do, I wear a uniform for what I do, I don't show up for and advertisement wearing shorts. I come for a mission I am called to, trained and in uniform. As a fireman, you are trained and in uniform, you are an unpaid professional. It may be called a volunteer fire department, but it is occupied by professionals.

[Eclipse]

I agree with this ^, but for the record it's basically 180 off from your last message.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I agree with this ^, but for the record it's basically 180 off from your last message.

I don't understand how. But maybe I didn't get it out right the first time.

[ZigZag911]

Leadership needs to set a good example.

Unfortunately I still see occasional photos of wing/region staff personnel wearing USAF uniform who shouldn't.

The rules apply to all, equally...when we enforce that ourselves, things will improve.

[abdsp51]

Leadership needs to set a good example.

Unfortunately I still see occasional photos of wing/region staff personnel wearing USAF uniform who shouldn't.

The rules apply to all, equally...when we enforce that ourselves, things will improve.

+1