Why are there such egregious uniform violations...if indeed there are?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I keep reading on CT that the reasons the Air Force keeps us on such a tight leash uniform-wise is because of such apparently egregious uniform violations that so many of our members commit.

I came in just after the imposition of the berry boards, which, depending on who you talk to, were forced on us by the AF because of the actions of a few stupid people who were indeed playing "wanna be" and throwing around rank they aren't authorised to do.

That was in the late '80s/early '90s.  We're still carrying the cross for the actions of those few.

Over almost two decades in CAP, in two wings, in senior, cadet and composite squadrons, I have never personally seen the kind of uniform violations that many CT folk cite as reasons for the AF keeping us under their uniform microscope (and which a small percentage cite as reasons for us to junk the AF uniforms entirely).  Yes, some of them have been substantiated by photographic evidence, so I'm not saying they don't happen.

If these violations are as widespread as claimed, I ask only one question: why?

Did they happen back in what I sometimes call the Golden Age of CAP, when we were welcomed on AF installations and the AF embraced us a lot more than they do now?

If not, when did the downhill slide happen?

[lordmonar]

I think you are somewhere near the real truth here.

a.  Most of the "Violations" are of the nature of "My cousin's roommate's friend once saw" sort of thing.
b.  We tend to have a very long collective memory.....and we pass off a lot of what happend in '80s and '90s as happening yestereday.
c.  The Urban Legend, Training by Rumor system is stong in CAP.  We pass off a lot of "why this is important" with a story that has been told and retold.....but no one really knows for sure.....I point out the rumor about why we started U.S. Flag on the BDUs.  I had people swear it was because HWSNBN was mistaken for a South American military type during Katrina.  Same story when we pulled the USAF AUX off the tails of the aircraft.  We has a lot of rumor about WHY it was happening but no real truth.

Now we have all seen someone out there not doing it right.....for one reason or another.  And yes there is photographic evidence all the time of someone not doing it right.

That is bottom line.....training......consistant training.  The cadets all go to encampment and so the cadets tend to be consitant.  Those that go to encampment as basics or on staff pass what they learn down to their troops.  So long as the encampment is not doing stupid stuff then we don't get stupid stuff in the squadrons.

On the Senior side.....we just don't have that as much.  We expect our seniors to either ask or look it up themselves.  Ususually they just look around and follow the example of those around them. 

[RiverAux]

The "Air Force" has never given this stuff a minutes thought.  This is about 99% CAPTalk culture and 1% reality.

[Cool Mace]

The Air Force only gives what we ask. If we don't ask for the change, then they won't take it upon themselves to give it to us. CAP provides what we want for uniforms, and they then give us a yes or no.

We might still be paying for what Bowling did, but we can't have what we don't ask for.

[Pylon]

I have yet to see any actual evidence, attributable quotes, statements, or even overhead chatter from AF personnel that the Air Force is somehow sick of perceived or actual uniform violations by CAP members.

Plus, we may notice when a CAP member wears his or her membership ribbon backwards or makes some small uniform violation because we're around it all the time -- but the Air Force is not at 99% of CAP functions.  They aren't at your weekly meetings, or on your cadet o-flights, or at your professional development seminars or your routine training or your bivouacs.  And the PAOs do a pretty good job of screening out photos picturing uniform violations, so much of that minor stuff never reaches the public or USAF's eye anyway.

This is one of those rumors that seems to get perpetuated by CAP members without any apparent basis in fact or reality.

[FW]

The only difference between our CAP (Auxiliary) uniform and the Air Force uniform is the gray sliders on the eps.  That is a big difference between our "golden age" and now.  It is not, however, cause to say the Air Force is happy with our enforcement of uniform wear.  We do not have metal rank because of a certain CAWG member (now on NHQ) who wore brown cowboy boots with the blues while being 100 lbs over the weight limit (I would quote then CoS Gen Foglesong but, I would have to mention a name which, is a violation of CT code of conduct).  We lost blue sliders because of the fued between the SECAF and AFCoS over Harwell's "promotion".  These are well documented.  Just need to go to the right source and do some real research. 

As far as a general AF disgust of our uniform enforcement; I can only relate to  CI teams comments.  I've read numerous comments on the lack of proper wear of the Air Force (style) uniform by members of the Civil Air Patrol over the 16 years I've been dealing with such. I've seen a wing commander wear the brown A1 leather jacket with flight suit.  I've noticed boonie hats with the BDU's.  I've seen members way over the weight limit and, at the last wing conference I attended, I noticed members still wearing blue sliders on their uniforms.  I know the Air Force is aware of this stuff.  How it is effecting us now is a good question.

[Cool Mace]

I have yet to see any actual evidence, attributable quotes, statements, or even overhead chatter from AF personnel that the Air Force is somehow sick of perceived or actual uniform violations by CAP members.

Plus, we may notice when a CAP member wears his or her membership ribbon backwards or makes some small uniform violation because we're around it all the time -- but the Air Force is not at 99% of CAP functions.  They aren't at your weekly meetings, or on your cadet o-flights, or at your professional development seminars or your routine training or your bivouacs.  And the PAOs do a pretty good job of screening out photos picturing uniform violations, so much of that minor stuff never reaches the public or USAF's eye anyway.

This is one of those rumors that seems to get perpetuated by CAP members without any apparent basis in fact or reality.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Dead on!

[abdsp51]

I think a lot of our issues are self inflicted, and membership as a whole has an uphill fight to rectify the issues.  Personally I have no issues with SM who are allowed to wear the AF style uniform have grey slides or the nameplate, which looks better than the [darn] maroon things of the 90s.  Having read through CAPM or is it CAPR39-1 it is in serious need of an overhaul, in many aspects, and people having the courage to say something when a violation is observed.  But until there is clear cut guidelines to enforce things will continue to be an enforcement nightmare and we will have this he said she said debates, and everything else.

[NCRblues]

I think a lot of our issues are self inflicted, and membership as a whole has an uphill fight to rectify the issues.  Personally I have no issues with SM who are allowed to wear the AF style uniform have grey slides or the nameplate, which looks better than the [darn] maroon things of the 90s.  Having read through CAPM or is it CAPR39-1 it is in serious need of an overhaul, in many aspects, and people having the courage to say something when a violation is observed.  But until there is clear cut guidelines to enforce things will continue to be an enforcement nightmare and we will have this he said she said debates, and everything else.

I really believe that the largest area of concern is the lack of an update on CAPM 39-1. The current 39-1 has problems. It contradicts itself, has loop holes you could fly a 787 through so forth and so on.

A re-do of 39-1 would go a long way in helping cap get over our uniform problems.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

a.  Most of the "Violations" are of the nature of "My cousin's roommate's friend once saw" sort of thing.
b.  We tend to have a very long collective memory.....and we pass off a lot of what happend in '80s and '90s as happening yestereday.
c.  The Urban Legend, Training by Rumor system is stong in CAP.  We pass off a lot of "why this is important" with a story that has been told and retold.....but no one really knows for sure.....I point out the rumor about why we started U.S. Flag on the BDUs.  I had people swear it was because HWSNBN was mistaken for a South American military type during Katrina.  Same story when we pulled the USAF AUX off the tails of the aircraft.  We has a lot of rumor about WHY it was happening but no real truth.

I couldn't have said that better myself!

I have never seen any of those examples...but I've HEARD of them...validation of point C.

I think what you said about point B is really prevalent the higher-up one goes, especially in terms of what Cool Mace said about "asking" and "getting."  I think that the berry boards are so burned into senior CAP officers' collective memory (your point B) that they've got really gun-shy about "what to ask for" WRT the Air Force.  I know that various well-meaning personages post that we have to wait for the NUC (?) to publish its conclusions, and then take them to the Air Force...however, my deeply cynical side (which existed long before I ever joined CAP) says that little to nothing will happen on that front, at least with the AF uniform, and that WRT the "corporate" uniform, probably just entrench once and for all that it's the only distinctive uniform we need or will ever have, but with little to no changes.

The "Air Force" has never given this stuff a minutes thought.  This is about 99% CAPTalk culture and 1% reality.

I believe you, because outside of higher-ups in AETC, the Air Force in general doesn't even know who we are.

We might still be paying for what Bowling did, but we can't have what we don't ask for.

What did he do?  I was referring to Harwell...

The only difference between our CAP (Auxiliary) uniform and the Air Force uniform is the gray sliders on the eps.  That is a big difference between our "golden age" and now.  It is not, however, cause to say the Air Force is happy with our enforcement of uniform wear.  We do not have metal rank because of a certain CAWG member (now on NHQ) who wore brown cowboy boots with the blues while being 100 lbs over the weight limit (I would quote then CoS Gen Foglesong but, I would have to mention a name which, is a violation of CT code of conduct).  We lost blue sliders because of the fued between the SECAF and AFCoS over Harwell's "promotion".  These are well documented.  Just need to go to the right source and do some real research. 

Colonel, I've heard all of those things except the bit about the cowboy boots.  I thought the hard rank went out along with the blue sliders because of Harwell.

However, I do respectfully differ on the "golden age" part.  When I first came into CAP ('93), I remember being welcomed onto AF installations, greeted with a smile (and sometimes a salute) and chatting with AF personnel about CAP and what we do.

Now when I go onto an AF installation I almost get the feeling that I need to be apologetic..."I'm sorry that some of our members don't respect your uniform, I do my best to wear it correctly, but when you see me you probably think of all those stories about CAP members trolling for salutes, and I'm sorry about that."

As far as a general AF disgust of our uniform enforcement; I can only relate to  CI teams comments.  I've read numerous comments on the lack of proper wear of the Air Force (style) uniform by members of the Civil Air Patrol over the 16 years I've been dealing with such. I've seen a wing commander wear the brown A1 leather jacket with flight suit.  I've noticed boonie hats with the BDU's.  I've seen members way over the weight limit and, at the last wing conference I attended, I noticed members still wearing blue sliders on their uniforms.  I know the Air Force is aware of this stuff.  How it is effecting us now is a good question.

Blue slides?  Where do they have them, stuffed away in a collection somewhere?  My first unit had some when I joined but various members bought/appropriated them for their collections.  I see them on Evilbay now and again, and they usually go fast.  A former commander had a collection, including warrant officer grade.

I sometimes see what I think may be weight violations, but without actually asking someone to step on a scale (not happening), I cannot say for sure.  I also think this is one of the goofiest parts of our uniform regs, because I have not infrequently seen Air Force members - Active, Guard and Reserve - who would be over OUR weight limits, let alone THEIRS.

I haven't seen that at wing conferences, but I confess to not having been to a wing conference in some years.  There were enough Air Force officers and NCO's at the ones I attended (including a region conference) that probably would have put the kibosh on that sharpish.

I think a lot of our issues are self inflicted, and membership as a whole has an uphill fight to rectify the issues.  Personally I have no issues with SM who are allowed to wear the AF style uniform have grey slides or the nameplate, which looks better than the [darn] maroon things of the 90s.

Agreed in part, in fact wholeheartedly agreed about the self-inflicted.

But our way of "rectifying" seems to be saying "just wear the golf shirt/aviator combo."

I also agree that the grey rank looks a LOT better than the berry boards.  As soon as I got my grey slides, I threw my maroon ones in the circular file.

However, I think it set a bad precedent in that the unspoken CAP "solution" for uniform problems is to make everything grey. (just waiting for an oval brass belt buckle saying "CS" and a kepi to be authorised  ).

I really believe that the largest area of concern is the lack of an update on CAPM 39-1. The current 39-1 has problems. It contradicts itself, has loop holes you could fly a 787 through so forth and so on.

A re-do of 39-1 would go a long way in helping cap get over our uniform problems.

A guarded "yes" to that one.  The cleverest can still find loopholes in even the tightest regs.

For example, what's wrong with my wearing the flight cap with my blue jumpsuit?  The only difference is that it's not NOMEX, and no-one (but me) would know if I did so (for the record: I don't and I won't).  I saw it worn very frequently with the old Smurf suit.  I've asked NHQ about it and just get a word-for-word restatement of what's in 39-1.

Good answers, everybody!

[Eclipse]

I seriously doubt the "Air Force" gives a lot of attention on a daily basis to CAP uniforms, however with that said, we cause a lot of our own problems.

If these violations are as widespread as claimed, I ask only one question: why?

The main issues are caused by a lack of command imperative coupled with almost no consequences for violations.  There's also:

Apathy.
Lack of knowledge and inconsistent training.
Aversion to uncomfortable conversations.
Attitude that "no one will notice"

No to mention a nice mix of some of the attitudes exhibited by posters here, which engage some of the most bizarre mental gymnastics
for not wearing this or that combo correctly, or at all.  Every kind of nonsense from "safety" to "no one said I can't".

Back to the OP, there's plenty of willful violations to go around, and I can tell you that the USAF does notice, and not just in regards to
the USAF-style uniforms, but in the corporate variants as well.

[abdsp51]

I believe you, because outside of higher-ups in AETC, the Air Force in general doesn't even know who we are.

On this I can tell you that group, wing, numbered AF CCs etc in all MAJCOMs of the AF know who CAP is and what we do.  They get a presentation of it and a tour of the AFRCC from 1st AF.  What they do with the information is entirely on them.  I think that if our members for one reason or another are the root cause of issues.  These issues can be fixed by membership and one way is for clearer guidelines on things and not leaving much open to interpretation.  I went through SLS here and the first day at lunch going from the food court to clothing sales I received two salutes in that short trip alone.  I didn't stop and tell them as they didn't know any better but I sure as heck wasn't trolling for it either.  Alot of uniform violations can be seemed up basically by the following;

1) Ignorance
2) Not caring
3) Not Properly trained

It is up to us the membership to rectify issues from the bottom up.  Alot of members gripe they don't receive alot of support from the AF has your leadership approached the powers to be on the yard?  Most command slots on a yard are a set time frame, and there most wg commanders are always looking for how to improve their base and community relations. 

[Eclipse]

There's also the issue of the willful violations that involve high-visibility items.

If you have a badge too low, are wearing an EMT and GTM, or military ribbons on your whites, no one is likely to take as much notice
as if the violation involves a leather jacket, boonie hat, beret, or some other item that everyone knows is controversial, has a limited (or zero) wear lane
and may be a sore spot with the USAF.

But rather than consider collateral damage, some members "know better".

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I seriously doubt the "Air Force" gives a lot of attention on a daily basis to CAP uniforms, however with that said, we cause a lot of our own problems.

Agreed, until they get a report of some misguided CAP member trolling for a salute...then they do notice us.

The main issues are caused by a lack of command imperative couple with almost no consequences for violations.

I guess I was lucky in that I came into a squadron that wore the AF almost uniform exclusively...and told you about it if you didn't wear it right.

No to mention a nice mix of some of the attitudes exhibited by posters here, which engage some of the most bizarre mental gymnastics
for not wearing this or that combo correctly, or at all.

Unfortunately I have noticed that.

Back to the OP, there's plenty of willful violations to go around, and I can tell you that the USAF does notice, and not just in regards to
the USAF-style uniforms, but in the corporate variants as well.

Not to sound flippant, but why do they care about the corporate variants, other than someone wrongly wearing military blingage on them when we're not supposed to?

On this I can tell you that group, wing, numbered AF CCs etc in all MAJCOMs of the AF know who CAP is and what we do.

Point taken on that, but again that's mostly chaps and chapesses with egg on their caps.

The further down you go, unless said airman/NCO/lieutenant is a CAP member themselves, the more likely to be unfamiliar with CAP they are.

I remember reading in the Air Force Times that one Airman said his MTI told him to "ignore" CAP members if he encountered them.

I went through SLS here and the first day at lunch going from the food court to clothing sales I received two salutes in that short trip alone. 

I wasn't intending to make this about salutes...I had it inculcated from the getgo that we were not entitled to them and just return them and a greeting when we get them.

It is up to us the membership to rectify issues from the bottom up. 

Other than policing my own behaviour and making my own conduct as exemplary as possible, I am unsure how to do that.

Alot of members gripe they don't receive alot of support from the AF has your leadership approached the powers to be on the yard?  Most command slots on a yard are a set time frame, and there most wg commanders are always looking for how to improve their base and community relations. 

Which level of leadership?

I am very much an "in-the-background" type of person, and though you wouldn't know it from my CT blathering, I am quite reserved to the point of being monosyllabic at times.   Above squadron level, I doubt many in Group or Wing leadership even know who I am (seriously) beyond a face they see occasionally and a name on a roster.  My point: I'm not privy to if/when/what/why those up the food chain from me have done.

[abdsp51]

Squadron commander and group commanders would be a good place to start with.  And there is nothing wrong with being behind the scenes, those guys/gals are the unsung heroes of many operations activities etc. 

[Eclipse]

Not to sound flippant, but why do they care about the corporate variants, other than someone wrongly wearing military blingage on them when we're not supposed to?

Wrong is wrong, and just because the shirt is white instead of blue, doesn't mean that a member's lack of respect for the uniform or attention to detail goes unnoticed.  The Patton Paradigm^® is the same no matter what uniform you are wearing, military, corporate, or your personal employment.

It would probably surprise some people to find out just how well informed some State Directors and CAP-RAPs actually are about uniforms, and the
comments they make about "Major Payne wearing the regimental tie with his whites...", etc.


"Patton Paradigm^®" is a registered trademark of eClipseco Mining and Heavy Machinery Consortium.  All Rights Reserved.
Let eClipseco service all of your rhetoric and propaganda needs!

[FW]

Colonel, I've heard all of those things except the bit about the cowboy boots.  I thought the hard rank went out along with the blue sliders because of Harwell.

However, I do respectfully differ on the "golden age" part.  When I first came into CAP ('93), I remember being welcomed onto AF installations, greeted with a smile (and sometimes a salute) and chatting with AF personnel about CAP and what we do.

Now when I go onto an AF installation I almost get the feeling that I need to be apologetic..."I'm sorry that some of our members don't respect your uniform, I do my best to wear it correctly, but when you see me you probably think of all those stories about CAP members trolling for salutes, and I'm sorry about that."

As far as a general AF disgust of our uniform enforcement; I can only relate to  CI teams comments.  I've read numerous comments on the lack of proper wear of the Air Force (style) uniform by members of the Civil Air Patrol over the 16 years I've been dealing with such. I've seen a wing commander wear the brown A1 leather jacket with flight suit.  I've noticed boonie hats with the BDU's.  I've seen members way over the weight limit and, at the last wing conference I attended, I noticed members still wearing blue sliders on their uniforms.  I know the Air Force is aware of this stuff.  How it is effecting us now is a good question.

Blue slides?  Where do they have them, stuffed away in a collection somewhere?  My first unit had some when I joined but various members bought/appropriated them for their collections.  I see them on Evilbay now and again, and they usually go fast.  A former commander had a collection, including warrant officer grade.

I sometimes see what I think may be weight violations, but without actually asking someone to step on a scale (not happening), I cannot say for sure.  I also think this is one of the goofiest parts of our uniform regs, because I have not infrequently seen Air Force members - Active, Guard and Reserve - who would be over OUR weight limits, let alone THEIRS.

I haven't seen that at wing conferences, but I confess to not having been to a wing conference in some years.  There were enough Air Force officers and NCO's at the ones I attended (including a region conference) that probably would have put the kibosh on that sharpish.

CyBorg, we're basically on the same page however, when I mentioned "the Golden Age", I was referring only to the resemblence of our current uniform with those of 15 years ago and longer. I can remember the days when our membership card was all which was needed to get access to an AF Base. 

Yes, some members wear the blue slides even today.  Yes, it's been a million years since they were authorized and, yes, they went away because of the Harwell promotion (not Harwell).

In my many years as a CAP member (many many) I've noticed more and more uniform violations. I've been forced to listen to a few CAP-USAF/CCs and a few pentagon officials "remarking" about how "we" wear the uniform.  However, as I've already said, I have no idea if these "remarks" translate into adverse actions on CAP.

[Eclipse]

Yes, some members wear the blue slides even today.  Yes, it's been a million years since they were authorized and, yes, they went away because of the Harwell promotion (not Harwell).

We've still got people wearing wing patches on blues.

In my many years as a CAP member (many many) I've noticed more and more uniform violations. I've been forced to listen to a few CAP-USAF/CCs and a few pentagon officials "remarking" about how "we" wear the uniform.  However, as I've already said, I have no idea if these "remarks" translate into adverse actions on CAP.

Perhaps when those remarks are made, you might suggest that they assist in supporting making our uniform situation less...complicated.
Granted, the situation has evolved over 20-30 years, and the "hows" and "whys" are complicated, but the fixes could be quick and simple.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

...the fixes could be quick and simple.

You were making so much sense in your posts, why do you have to screw-up now?

"Quick and simple fixes" with the subject being CAP uniforms?

One might as well try to untie a Gordian Knot or calculate the value of Pi.

[Extremepredjudice]

Pi:  3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510
58209749445923078164062862089986280348253421170679
   82148086513282306647093844609550582231725359408128
   48111745028410270193852110555964462294895493038196
   44288109756659334461284756482337867831652712019091
   45648566923460348610454326648213393607260249141273
   72458700660631558817488152092096282925409171536436
   78925903600113305305488204665213841469519415116094
   33057270365759591953092186117381932611793105118548
   07446237996274956735188575272489122793818301194912
   98336733624406566430860213949463952247371907021798
   60943702770539217176293176752384674818467669405132
   00056812714526356082778577134275778960917363717872
   14684409012249534301465495853710507922796892589235
   42019956112129021960864034418159813629774771309960
   51870721134999999837297804995105973173281609631859
   50244594553469083026425223082533446850352619311881
   71010003137838752886587533208381420617177669147303
   59825349042875546873115956286388235378759375195778
   18577805321712268066130019278766111959092164201989

Someone calcuated Pi out to the 10 trillionth place. So don't say it is impossible to calculate Pi. And the gordian knot was untied. The two variations either have alexander cut it, and the other he unties it.