CAP Flight Suits-Reviews and Recommendations

[davidsinn]

After reading this thread I looked through all of the flight AND uniform regs - and nowhere do I see any actual requirement to use a flight suit for anything.  Its clear you have to be in a uniform but it does not specify which.

All of the activity uniforms I hear about are T-shirts and usually shorts.  Then theres the SE region uniform.

Is there any activity where flight suits are actually required?  Considering the restrictions on where you go and what you do wearing one when you are not actually flying I'd rather just avoid wearing a "zoom bag" if I can.

In your wing region, nomex flight suits are required to fly on missions.

Fixed.

That's worse yet. I don't see the point personally. Leading cause of death in an air crash is trauma not burns...

[SarDragon]

Cites please?

I was going to respond earlier, but didn't, because the latest CAWG 39-1 supplement no longer requires the Nomex bag.

Also, the PCR 60-1 supplement was rescinded two years ago, so that's non-starter, too.

[davidsinn]

Cites please?

I was going to respond earlier, but didn't, because the latest CAWG 39-1 supplement no longer requires the Nomex bag.

Also, the PCR 60-1 supplement was rescinded two years ago, so that's non-starter, too.

I am unfortunately guilty of: I was told. I'm going off what I've read on here.

[dbaran]

I was going to respond earlier, but didn't, because the latest CAWG 39-1 supplement no longer requires the Nomex bag.

Also, the PCR 60-1 supplement was rescinded two years ago, so that's non-starter, too.

You are correct that there is nothing written requiring it in CA (yet), but it is a policy that is in effect, and all ICs are following it.   I wasn't happy that it was an unwritten rule, so I drafted an OI about 10 months ago to make it clear but it hasn't gotten approved yet.  I confirmed this past weekend (at our MP school) that the policy is still very much in effect.

[SJFedor]

I was going to respond earlier, but didn't, because the latest CAWG 39-1 supplement no longer requires the Nomex bag.

Also, the PCR 60-1 supplement was rescinded two years ago, so that's non-starter, too.

You are correct that there is nothing written requiring it in CA (yet), but it is a policy that is in effect, and all ICs are following it.   I wasn't happy that it was an unwritten rule, so I drafted an OI about 10 months ago to make it clear but it hasn't gotten approved yet.  I confirmed this past weekend (at our MP school) that the policy is still very much in effect.

If there's nothing in writing, then it's not a policy. It's one person saying "I think that...."

[Hawk200]

If there's nothing in writing, then it's not a policy. It's one person saying "I think that...."

Or in other cases, like a person saying "I wish ...."

[bosshawk]

Or a person saying----"Because I told you so------- or that same person says---"I am directing you to"-----.  Bravo Sierra.

[tsrup]

After reading this thread I looked through all of the flight AND uniform regs - and nowhere do I see any actual requirement to use a flight suit for anything.  Its clear you have to be in a uniform but it does not specify which.

All of the activity uniforms I hear about are T-shirts and usually shorts.  Then theres the SE region uniform.

Is there any activity where flight suits are actually required?  Considering the restrictions on where you go and what you do wearing one when you are not actually flying I'd rather just avoid wearing a "zoom bag" if I can.

In your wing region, nomex flight suits are required to fly on missions.

Fixed.

That's worse yet. I don't see the point personally. Leading cause of death in an air crash is trauma not burns...

Yes, and a cockpit fire is a good way to cause crash induced trauma..

[davidsinn]

After reading this thread I looked through all of the flight AND uniform regs - and nowhere do I see any actual requirement to use a flight suit for anything.  Its clear you have to be in a uniform but it does not specify which.

All of the activity uniforms I hear about are T-shirts and usually shorts.  Then theres the SE region uniform.

Is there any activity where flight suits are actually required?  Considering the restrictions on where you go and what you do wearing one when you are not actually flying I'd rather just avoid wearing a "zoom bag" if I can.

In your wing region, nomex flight suits are required to fly on missions.

Fixed.

That's worse yet. I don't see the point personally. Leading cause of death in an air crash is trauma not burns...

Yes, and a cockpit fire is a good way to cause crash induced trauma..

Everything I've read about Nomex says that an avgas fire is not hot enough to get the fibers to seal up.

[TCMajor]

So we have a region that is adding an additional $200.00 to the price of admission into flight operations.  Even after National has stated it is OK to fly in non-NOMEX.  There is no valid safety reason to require flying in NOMEX in the aircraft that CAP Flies.  I wonder how many pilots and aircrew they are not getting in the air as a result.  If on board fire was that big of an issue in single-engine normally aspirated aircraft, then the FAA would have everyone in GA aircraft wearing NOMEX.  Yes small aircraft do have cabin fires on very rare occasions, but the usual result is "cabin fills up with smoke, aircrew can't see or breath, aircraft impacts ground at high rate of speed".  Then we go to work.   

[Mustang]

Everything I've read about Nomex says that an avgas fire is not hot enough to get the fibers to seal up.

There is no valid safety reason to require flying in NOMEX in the aircraft that CAP Flies.

Might want to ask Joe Lawrence about that, he was the sole survivor of a CAWG plane crash back in the late '90s and was badly burned everywhere he wasn't covered by Nomex while trying to extricate his fellow crewmembers from the burning wreckage. 

Joe isn't in CAP anymore, but I knew the dude personally, both before and after the crash, and saw all the crap he had to go through during his recovery. His face, neck and side of his head will be a scarred mess for the rest of his life.  He darn near lost his hand to postoperative infection for lack of a pair of $30 Nomex gloves.  His experience sold me on the value of Nomex.

Considering that my flight bag carries nearly two grand worth of gear (ANR headset, GPS receiver, handheld aircraft band radio, pulse oximeter, etc.), the cost issue is a non-starter in my book.  Even if the odds are 1 in 1000 that you'll be burned in an aircraft accident, how much is your skin worth to you?  Mine's easily worth a few hundred bucks.

[TCMajor]

Mustang,

  I am one of the ones on the other side of that affordability quotient.  I am lucky to afford $150 for a headset.  I am sure I am not alone.  While a agree with your statement, the simple fact is that if statistics bore out the threat, then the FAA would require the gear in all aircraft.  The other question is.  If you don't follow a rule that does not exist, how do they discipline you? 

[DakRadz]

Before the Titanic, lifeboats weren't required for all passengers. Especially not for the Titanic- it couldn't be sunk, remember?
They also didn't believe that more lifeboats would matter because, in an emergency, what are the chances you can deploy them all?

Same logic? Just a thought.

[SarDragon]

Everything I've read about Nomex says that an avgas fire is not hot enough to get the fibers to seal up.

Seal up? I don't think so.

The primary advantage of Nomex is that it neither melts nor ignites in normal levels of oxygen. Get it hot enough, and it will start to char, but it does not support combustion.

[SarDragon]

Before the Titanic, lifeboats weren't required for all passengers. Especially not for the Titanic- it couldn't be sunk, remember?

OT - actually, they were required, just not in sufficient quantities.

More here, and here, and here.

Now back to flight suits.

[Thom]

I'd like to clear up a few misconceptions about Nomex:

1.  Nomex is not magic, but it is very good at protecting human bodies from fire damage when fashioned into garments.

2.  Nomex DOES swell and thicken as part of its reaction to applied heat, particularly above ~300 degrees Fahrenheit.  This is NOT its primary method of protection, but it certainly contributes to its overall effectiveness at insulating the body within, both by absorbing some heat into the fibers themselves, by the overall weave thickening increasing the distance between the outside heat source (fire) and the body within, and by reducing the transpiration of air through the fabric.

3.  Nomex also begins to Char around ~700-800 degrees Fahrenheit.  This char reaction breaks down the fibers and absorbs additional heat energy in the process, as well as forming an even better air barrier.  Once Nomex has been exposed to these temperatures, it is degraded and should be replaced.  Nomex doesn't Melt or Drip at any temperature and it self-extinguishes in normal air immediately once a source of ignition has been removed from it.

4.  AvGas fires are DEFINITELY hot enough to activate both active heat reactions of Nomex, as well as causing its passive insulation capabilities to be needed.  Open air burn temperatures for AvGas can range anywere from ~800 degrees F to over 1200 degrees F.

I mean, come on, you think that AvGas burns substantially cooler than MoGas?  And don't race drivers, surrounded by MoGas wear Nomex?  Aren't they routinely thankful for it?

That said, I'm more likely to want a Nomex suit on in my CAR than in a light plane.  The odds of a fuel fire injury are greater in the place where you are more often exposed.  This excepts the statistics for inflight fire injuries that would have, Nomex or not, resulted in fatal crashes.  Sometimes you just lose.

All that said, we should not be in the business of enforcing regulations that do not exist.  Period.

If the Nomex is that good an idea, write it up and have a new Supplement approved and Published.  Easy.


ETA:  Sorry for the edit, but I remembered I forgot to include one thing:

5.  The single layer Nomex used in flight suits is maybe (maybe!) one half to one quarter as effective as the multilayer Nomex used in automotive racing suits.  When you see guys get out of a burning race car after 30 seconds with no major injuries, that isn't the way a flight suit would work for them.  Just something to keep in mind.



Thom

[TCMajor]

Thom,

  Great information, and well said.  Thank you.

[dbaran]

If there's nothing in writing, then it's not a policy. It's one person saying "I think that...."

The person who said it is the Wing Director of Operations, and speaks for the Wing Commander on this topic.  From my recollection of a previous article in our Wing newsletter...the State Director is on the exact same page.   

They all remember Joe Lawrence's situation.

I don't like unwritten rules (which is why I tried to get it written down), but the situation is a "Salute and Execute" at this point. 

[RVT]

The person who said it is the Wing Director of Operations, and speaks for the Wing Commander on this topic.  From my recollection of a previous article in our Wing newsletter...the State Director is on the exact same page.    They all remember Joe Lawrence's situation.
I don't like unwritten rules (which is why I tried to get it written down), but the situation is a "Salute and Execute" at this point.

I see so many people get Nomex flight suits and then put a nylon MA-1 on top of it.  Won't that leave you with a big blob of melted burning nylon stuck to your nice fireproof suit?

[SarDragon]

Indeed. That's why I never wear the flight jacket in the A/C. I rely on what's under the flight suit (cotton stuff), and the environmental control features of the A/C to keep warm, or most often, cool.