The Golden Pip

[KioGoten]

Hey guys,  I am new to the forums.

I was a cadet back in 1998.  I remember when the old ranking structure was around.  IE c/sergeant instead of c/SrA

I became a SM recently and I saw that they got rid of the golden pip... that made me sad lol.  I asked everyone where it went but no one could tell me anything about it.

When did they get rid of the Golden Pip for cadet officers?


-Nelson

CAPT CAP
SWR-TX-313 Abilene Squadron
2LT Texas Guard
Midland Medical Division

[Pylon]

The Cadet Flight Officer grade and the golden pip was officially retired around 2000, if I recall correctly.  There were a bunch of changes to the cadet programs structure to bring it more in line with actual Air Force ranks (including the renaming of C/Sgt to C/SrA, the change of the C/MSgt chevron to 5 down-1 up, and the creation of C/SMSgt and C/CMSgt). 

There was a phase-out date set, and all remaining C/FO on that date automatically became C/2d Lt's.   I also once was a C/FO, but had promoted past it when the changes came through.

[SarDragon]

According to the somewhat limited info I have, they came in sometime in 1968, and went away sometime after 1997.

[JC004]

I think that revision to 52-16 was dated 1998 or 1999?

[KioGoten]

That is interesting because I talked to the senior members in my squadron and none of them could tell me when the FO was retired.  They said I was dreaming because there was never such a rank.  yet I went through our rank box for a cadet and low and behold a golden pip and it wasnt the metal rank it was the cloth.

I showed everyone and they still were hesistant to say "Oh yes your right"  so is there a website with the old rank structure or something along those lines?

Capt Nelson Guadalupe, CAP
SWR-TX-313 Abilene Squadron
2LT Texas Guard
Midland Medical Division

[SarDragon]

I have olde copies of CAPM 39-1, and a 1985 research product done by a CAP major. I know the first date, when it was called Cadet Warrant Officer, because I was a member then, as a cadet. OTOH, I was likely inactive when they went away. I was away from CAP from August 1989 to September 1999.

[JC004]

That is interesting because I talked to the senior members in my squadron and none of them could tell me when the FO was retired.  They said I was dreaming because there was never such a rank.  yet I went through our rank box for a cadet and low and behold a golden pip and it wasnt the metal rank it was the cloth.

I showed everyone and they still were hesistant to say "Oh yes your right"  so is there a website with the old rank structure or something along those lines?

Capt Nelson Guadalupe, CAP
SWR-TX-313 Abilene Squadron
2LT Texas Guard
Midland Medical Division

http://www.incountry.us/cappatches/RANK-CDT/index.html

[FARRIER]

I wore the gold pip as a C/WO in 1985. I don't remember when it changed to C/FO.

[SarDragon]

That source only covers the cloth insignia. The metal versions came out earlier.

C/WO -> C/FO probably happened in 1987. The '87 version of CAPM 39-1 had C/FO.

[JC004]

All I could find, though.     I looked on the CAP history site too.

[SarDragon]

Yeah, there's not a lot out there. Major Regan's work only goes to 1985, and discusses the possibility of C/WO changing as a result of USAF WOs going away.

It's C/FO in the '87 39-1.

[JoeTomasone]

They were still C/WO when I left the Cadet Program around 1985-86.

[Trung Si Ma]

According to the somewhat limited info I have, they came in sometime in 1968, and went away sometime after 1997.

When I got my Mitchell in the summer of '69, C/WO was a new and confusing rank.  We were not allowed to wear the bus driver hat (anyone else remember the white bands?) or shoulder boards until we became "real" cadet officers.

[FW]

^I think we were allowed to wear the pips on the shoulder boards on our blue service jackets however, on the khakis, we wore the pips on our collars.  Of course, after 41 years, I'm lucky I still remember anything about those days....

[jeders]

That is interesting because I talked to the senior members in my squadron and none of them could tell me when the FO was retired.  They said I was dreaming because there was never such a rank.  yet I went through our rank box for a cadet and low and behold a golden pip and it wasnt the metal rank it was the cloth.

I showed everyone and they still were hesistant to say "Oh yes your right"  so is there a website with the old rank structure or something along those lines?

Capt Nelson Guadalupe, CAP
SWR-TX-313 Abilene Squadron
2LT Texas Guard
Midland Medical Division

Well clearly you didn't ask all the senior members in your squadron. 

Yeah, that went away in late '99 early '00. When I joined in late '00 I remember sitting through a Leadership Ch1 class and the cadet teaching it was going through the various corrections for the cadet rank structure.

And glad to see that you've found your way to CAPTalk, hopefully it won't send you 'round the bend like it has some of us.

[lordmonar]

That is interesting because I talked to the senior members in my squadron and none of them could tell me when the FO was retired.  They said I was dreaming because there was never such a rank.  yet I went through our rank box for a cadet and low and behold a golden pip and it wasnt the metal rank it was the cloth.

I showed everyone and they still were hesistant to say "Oh yes your right"  so is there a website with the old rank structure or something along those lines?

Capt Nelson Guadalupe, CAP
SWR-TX-313 Abilene Squadron
2LT Texas Guard
Midland Medical Division

Not suprising....it has been retired for 13 years now....what is the average TIS for a CAP senior membe?

I know down here in NVWG we only have a small handful of members with their 20 year pins.

[MIKE]

It would have had to of been around 1999, because I remember seeing the new cadet SNCO insignia at my basic encampment that summer while wearing old style C/MSgt myself.  I recall having the option to do the Armstrong, which I took... and then got my Mitchell in January of 2000 which conferred C/2d Lt rather than C/FO.

[SarDragon]

According to the somewhat limited info I have, they came in sometime in 1968, and went away sometime after 1997.

When I got my Mitchell in the summer of '69, C/WO was a new and confusing rank.  We were not allowed to wear the bus driver hat (anyone else remember the white bands?) or shoulder boards until we became "real" cadet officers.

That's exactly how it was for me, too. No hat, no boards.

The '83 39-1 talks about C/WO, but does not mention the gold pips on the boards.The '87 version says C/FO, and specifies that the gold pip may be worn on the boards.

[Flying Pig]

I was a C/FO!  And also when it topped out at C/MSgt.  Ahhh, the good ol' days.

[SarDragon]

Geez, Bob, you're olde!

[LtCol057]

I was a cadet in the early 1970s, making it to C/Sgt.  I hated having to sew the new stripes on everytime I promoted. Then got out for 18 years.  When I came back in as a SM in 1990, the gold pip was a C/FO.  I think it was around 1997-1998 when they changed everything.  I remember the bus driver hat with the white band, even tho I never wore one.  Our regular uniform was the khakis with flight cap.  Very rarely did we wear the OD green fatigues.  IIRC, back then the females didn't wear the OD green, their field uniform was a lt blue shirt, jeans, and flight cap.  I know, I'm dating myself, but I do have the 20-year pin, even tho I very rarely wear my ribbons. 

[KioGoten]

My senior members are newer than 99 and 00.  One who is also a Captain joined as a cadet in 00 and made it to C/2LT

Wow does that guy think he is the best thing since sliced bread.

Yup I remember the FO rank.  I think it was a great rank to have and gave those who earned it the drive to earn their silver 2LT pin.

I do have a Senior Member who was a cadet back in the 70's but he doesnt come to the meeting much anymore.  He made SM Major and then stopped coming to the meetings.

But thanks alot for the link to the old ranks.  This helped alot.

Capt Nelson Guadalupe, CAP
SWR-TX-313 Abilene Squadron
2LT Texas Guard
Midland Medical Division

[PHall]

If you are old enough to have worn the Gold Pip as a C/WO, then you are offically an "Olde Fart".

(And I wore mine with pride!)

[SarDragon]

I liked the instant promotion when they were added to the program.

[AlphaSigOU]

If you are old enough to have worn the Gold Pip as a C/WO, then you are offically an "Olde Fart".

(And I wore mine with pride!)

Same here... 

[Trung Si Ma]

If you are old enough to have worn the Gold Pip as a C/WO, then you are officially an "Olde Fart".

(And I wore mine with pride!)

Right along side our clown ribbons.  And I will publicly admit to liking the olde Wright, Rickenbacker, Goddard, and Earhart Ribbons.

[Hill CAP]

Hi,

My Mitchell was dated July 29, 1999 and I was a C/FO. the change was August 1, 1999 when they removed C/FO and added in C/SMSgt and C/CMSgt.

If you was a C/FO you had the option to remain in the old program until you took your Earhart or change to C/2d Lt and take on the new program.

[ZigZag911]

When I got my Mitchell in the summer of '69, C/WO was a new and confusing rank.  We were not allowed to wear the bus driver hat (anyone else remember the white bands?) or shoulder boards until we became "real" cadet officers.

By '71 we had shoulder boards (which I always despised!) and saucer cap, as C/WO.

[FARRIER]

If you are old enough to have worn the Gold Pip as a C/WO, then you are officially an "Olde Fart".

(And I wore mine with pride!)

Right along side our clown ribbons.  And I will publicly admit to liking the olde Wright, Rickenbacker, Goddard, and Earhart Ribbons.

I wore mine with pride also.  The ribbons,  having them shadow boxed, I can still remember which ones are which by aircraft icons on them.

[KioGoten]

So when they took out the C/FO and added the C/SMSgt and C/CMSgt did this lengethen the program for the cadets?

Is it now longer for them to made cadet officer?

Capt Nelson Guadalupe, CAP
SWR-TX-313 Abilene Squadron
2LT Texas Guard
Midland Medical Division

[SarDragon]

Yes. There have been two or three (?) achievements added since the C/WO days.

[ßτε]

Two achievements were added: Mary Feik & Neil Armstrong
One achievement changed to a milestone: Wright Bros.

Before, to become C/2d Lt: Seven achievements, Mitchell, and then Flight Commander Achievement.
Now, to become C/2d Lt: Three achievements, Wright Brothers, five more achievements, then Mitchell.

[SarDragon]

I don't recall anything beyond Mitchell for C/2dLt, BITD.

[ßτε]

I don't recall anything beyond Mitchell for C/2dLt, BITD.

WIWAC, Mitchell gave you C/WO, and Flight Commander Achievement was for C/2d Lt.

[SarDragon]

OK, way, way back. For a variety of reasons, I never got past Mitchell, so don't recall what came later.

[MIKE]

^ Weak. 

[heliodoc]

Gold PIP

1978 ..same year  I attended UAAFASC

If that makes us old farts..so be it....

Transferred the Gold Pip to the AF type WO 1.5 yrs later and wore those as the youngest Sqdn CC in the Wing...people were ticked off at that and that is why I thought, in most cases, of CAP rank and grade .... was such a joke...the older farts than me we on the lecture circuit about "how I needed to be a 2nd and 1Lt series....

Told a few Wing types what I thought of that and in 1981 went on to better things than CAP.......

30 yrs later...... NOT much has changed in CAP ...only plenty of types out there STILL telling folks what and how is good for you / one

IF ONLY they would follow their OWN suggestions

From a Gold Pip and  old CAP WO type....

[Al Sayre]

If you are old enough to have worn the Gold Pip as a C/WO, then you are offically an "Olde Fart".

(And I wore mine with pride!)

Me too...

[High Speed Low Drag]

If you are old enough to have worn the Gold Pip as a C/WO, then you are offically an "Olde Fart".

(And I wore mine with pride!)

I was a C/WO (pronounced as "see-wooo") when I got my Mitchell in '85.  (Went through Blue Beret in '85 as a WO).  Got my Earhart in '86 and was a C/Maj in '87 when they switched to as a FO.  Me and my peers grumbled about the "good 'ole days" of the see-wooo being replaced with something out of a Hollywood RAF movie (pip, pip, cheerio).

I think that we should return to the golden pip - then we can refer to C/2nd LTs as "butter-pips."

(Insert appropriate curmudgeon comment here)  (Did I remember to use the bathroom yesterday?) (These darn cadets and these new-fangled phones - back in my day you had to find a pay-phone if you wanted to cry to your mamma about the mean sergeant!) (WIWAC, we had to march 5 miles at every meeting - uphill both ways) (Changes to the regs came by mailman, not ....zzzzzzzzzz)

[HGjunkie]

If you are old enough to have worn the Gold Pip as a C/WO, then you are offically an "Olde Fart".

(And I wore mine with pride!)

I was a C/WO (pronounced as "see-wooo") when I got my Mitchell in '85.  (Went through Blue Beret in '85 as a WO).  Got my Earhart in '86 and was a C/Maj in '87 when they switched to as a FO.  Me and my peers grumbled about the "good 'ole days" of the see-wooo being replaced with something out of a Hollywood RAF movie (pip, pip, cheerio).

I think that we should return to the golden pip - then we can refer to C/2nd LTs as "butter-pips."

(Insert appropriate curmudgeon comment here)  (Did I remember to use the bathroom yesterday?) (These darn cadets and these new-fangled phones - back in my day you had to find a pay-phone if you wanted to cry to your mamma about the mean sergeant!) (WIWAC, we had to march 5 miles at every meeting - uphill both ways) (Changes to the regs came by mailman, not ....zzzzzzzzzz)

+1 on the Butter Pip, i would have a blast callin my Sq's new 2d lt "Butter-Pip".

[JC004]

People seem to have liked their gold pip.  I wonder if I still have that bag of the metal ones... 

[ZigZag911]

If you are old enough to have worn the Gold Pip as a C/WO, then you are offically an "Olde Fart".

(And I wore mine with pride!)

As one former C/WO to another, I concur!

[arajca]

If you are old enough to have worn the Gold Pip as a C/WO, then you are offically an "Olde Fart".

(And I wore mine with pride!)

Hey! I resemble that remark.

[KioGoten]

I think they should bring back the Golden Pip.

If these kids do go to the academy or RPTC and get commissioned as a 2LT they will know that it feels like to be called a butter bar and have that experience from being a FO or WO.

Now I know that the air force does not have WO's anymore, but it could be kept as a golden pip being a 2LT then after they pass their first or second test they could be promoted to the silver pip as being a seasoned 2LT.

What do you guys think?

[AlphaSigOU]

I think they should bring back the Golden Pip.

If these kids do go to the academy or RPTC and get commissioned as a 2LT they will know that it feels like to be called a butter bar and have that experience from being a FO or WO.

Now I know that the air force does not have WO's anymore, but it could be kept as a golden pip being a 2LT then after they pass their first or second test they could be promoted to the silver pip as being a seasoned 2LT.

What do you guys think?

Never happen. So those of us who once wore the golden pip with pride are gonna hafta look at it from a shadow box. CAP's cadet grade insignia is now aligned with Ma Blue's. And Ma Blue doesn't want warrant officers; she hasn't had any since about 1980.

[BillB]

Chuck time spent on vacation on a South Pacific Island doesn't count to time in grade. You're not attending Squadron meetings. So when you get back to that western state, you will still have a year and sevean months to go. (joking)

[High Speed Low Drag]

I think they should bring back the Golden Pip.

If these kids do go to the academy or RPTC and get commissioned as a 2LT they will know that it feels like to be called a butter bar and have that experience from being a FO or WO.

Now I know that the air force does not have WO's anymore, but it could be kept as a golden pip being a 2LT then after they pass their first or second test they could be promoted to the silver pip as being a seasoned 2LT.

What do you guys think?

Never happen. So those of us who once wore the golden pip with pride are gonna hafta look at it from a shadow box. CAP's cadet grade insignia is now aligned with Ma Blue's. And Ma Blue doesn't want warrant officers; she hasn't had any since about 1980.

We aren't bringing back the WO or FO, just substituting the golden pip for the silver pip as the grade insignia for C/2nd Lt.

[a2capt]

Chuck time spent on vacation on a South Pacific Island doesn't count to time in grade. You're not attending Squadron meetings. So when you get back to that western state, you will still have a year and sevean months to go. (joking)

Ya know, I'm actually for that, joking aside, over all I do have issues most of the time with folks who sit in the wings and wait .. and then put in for promotions and basically didn't do anything.

Doesn't work at some units because they actually have a review board. But ..

No, I'm not picking on our South Pacific Island residents, though.

[AlphaSigOU]

Ahana koko lele! (Hawaiian for 'shame on you'!) 

For two outta my three years time in grade wearing railroad tracks I was quite active at Addison Eagles Composite Squadron (SWR-TX-390). Unfortunately where I'm located ('Kwajatraz Federal Penitentiary', Kwajalein, Marshall Islands  ) and current CAP regulations on overseas squadrons have largely kept me inactive with my new squadron, Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069). But I'll be back active for the month or so I'm on home leave in July.

[a2capt]

On leave.. LOL. I love it.  On leave from a deserted island, to a desert oasis. In the hottest part of the year. Culture shock..

[AlphaSigOU]

On leave.. LOL. I love it.  On leave from a deserted island, to a desert oasis. In the hottest part of the year. Culture shock...

You don't hafta be crazy to live and work here in the 'Island of Misfit Children'... but it sure helps!!! 

July in Lost Wages is usually not my time to visit family, but that's when I had enough leave saved up to get off the island for six weeks. Next year I'm breaking up my vacation into smaller parts; two to three weeks in the spring with the famly and two weeks in the fall to attend National Staff College.

[KioGoten]

Does anyone have any old Golden Pips they can part with?  My squadron has a golden pip cloth in our supplies but not the pin, I would like to put together a collection of the old ranks.  We actually have the old MSGT Pin where all the stripes are on the bottom.  It was nice to see.

[JC004]

Does anyone have any old Golden Pips they can part with?  My squadron has a golden pip cloth in our supplies but not the pin, I would like to put together a collection of the old ranks.  We actually have the old MSGT Pin where all the stripes are on the bottom.  It was nice to see.

I used to have a crap load of them.  I don't know if I still have them.  I'd have to dig...

[kd8gua]

I have a pair of small size and large size, mounted on respective cadet shoulder marks and shoulder boards, for my personal insignia collection. Purchased mine "new" from the Hock a few years ago. Up until Hock's C&D, they had gold pip cloth insignia for sale, unissued condition, as well as some of the cloth stripes. Probably all in a box somewhere until Hock can (if ever) start selling CAP specific items again.

[KioGoten]

What is the deal with the Hock not being able ot sell CAP stuff anyway?

Vanguard is so expensive its not even funny.  Shipping takes forever and not to mention it is expensive.  I also noticed they changed the ranks from when I was a cadet and now.  The CAP symbol inside the rank (red part) is incorporated into the rank and it is all flat.  Back in my day it was a piece that was set over the actual stripes.  (Bc the cadet rank was a modified version of the real military enlisted rank)

Any other place that might do underground type CAP selling besides Ebay... which usually has nothing but patches?

[a2capt]

For the deal on the Hock, and the Big V, as much as it irks the crud out of me when thats the first reply anyone gets,  "Use the Search, Luke.. " .. ;-)

You'll find a several deep threads on it, most of which are locked, so they may be on page 2 of uniforms, the lobby, etc.

[KioGoten]

This bites... vanguard sucks imho

Any way we could request another vendor?

[jeders]

This bites... vanguard sucks imho

Any way we could request another vendor?

Yes it does, though they suck a little less than they did when we started using them.

You could request another vendor, but not now since we're still under exclusive contract. Not to mention that your request WILL fall on deaf ears as has been made apparent by the National Commanders letter on the subject.

[KioGoten]

Hmmm,

I think this organization has more power than it would like to admit.

If the senior members were to e-mail eachother and get a petition or something together adn send it to NHQ they would have to listen wouldnt they?  Then send that same petition to Vanguard and threaten to leave them after their contract expires... I bet they wouldnt like that much.

What does everyone else think?

[Al Sayre]

Hi, you must be new here...

[Eclipse]

I think this organization has more power than it would like to admit.

If the senior members were to e-mail eachother and get a petition or something together adn send it to NHQ they would have to listen wouldnt they?  Then send that same petition to Vanguard and threaten to leave them after their contract expires... I bet they wouldnt like that much.

Which organization?  CAP Talk?

For starters do the math.  As of this message there are 2742 registered members of CAP Talk, about 1/2 of which have never posted at all, and 2/3+ who post so infrequently as to be in the first 1/2.

Next, not everyone shares the opinion about Vanguard, and of those who may share the frustration many understand this is a complex issue
without an inexpensive or easy solution.  Whomever picks up the contract needs to be an established, stable manufacturer of similar products - not some PAC-Rim fly-by-night.

So let's grant that 1/4 of the CT membership feels strongly enough about it to write an email?   That would account for about 1.% of the total CAP membership - hardly a blip, and nothing NHQ hasn't already heard through the chain.

oooops!  Another wrinkle - not all CT members are CAP members! Which means their opinion about something like this carries about zero weight.

[KioGoten]

Wow... didnt know you felt so strongly about the subject let alone how to do the math... I am impressed 

I didnt mean that everyone here on CAPTalk should do this, I am just saying that there should be something that could go out to the squadrons about this.  Just like any petition, you dont have to be apart of it if you dont want to.

But just to kill this convo, I was just asking people's opinion to see if something like this (If ever possible to send out a letter regarding this to all squadrons nation wide) if it could change anything.

...didnt mean I was going to do it... I dont have the time.. so high prices via Vanguard here I come!! lol

[MIKE]

Mind the drift. 

[wacapgh]

We aren't bringing back the WO or FO, just substituting the golden pip for the silver pip as the grade insignia for C/2nd Lt.

Unfortunately that would shift wearing the grades to this:

1 Gold Pip = C/2Lt
1 Silver Pip = C/1Lt
2 Silver Pips = C/Captain
3 Silver Pips = C/Major
1 Silver Diamond = C/ Lt. Colonel
2 Silver Diamonds = C/ Colonel

Unless we create some bizarre version of "C/2Lt (Lower Half)"

Official "Olde Fart" - C/WO, 1977

[KioGoten]

Well I was thinking something like this:

1 Golden Pip = C/2LT
2 Silver Pip = C/1LT
3 Silver Pip = C/ Captain
and so on.

Dont change the rest of them, just the 2LT to the golden pip.  That would be accurate... right? lol

[davidsinn]

Well I was thinking something like this:

1 Golden Pip = C/2LT
2 Silver Pip = C/1LT
3 Silver Pip = C/ Captain
and so on.

Dont change the rest of them, just the 2LT to the golden pip.  That would be accurate... right? lol

You'd need a gold diamond then...

[KioGoten]

That would actually be cool.
If they had a Golden Pip and Diamond that would make identifying rank so much easier and realistic to the actual officer ranks huh?

What do you guys think?

[SarDragon]

It ain't broke, so why invent a fix. Put your golden pip in a shadow box and reminisce about it with your friends over a brew or two.

[High Speed Low Drag]

That would actually be cool.
If they had a Golden Pip and Diamond that would make identifying rank so much easier and realistic to the actual officer ranks huh?

What do you guys think?

That would be pretty cool.  I like the idea.  And it is not that big of a chnage to create a challenge.  Supply sources already exist.

[JC004]

It ain't broke, so why invent a fix.
...

Clearly you are not qualified to serve on our National Board.

[Hawk200]

It ain't broke, so why invent a fix. Put your golden pip in a shadow box and reminisce about it with your friends over a brew or two.

Second. No reason to realign stuff just so it's cool.

[KioGoten]

Awww you guys are not fun    lol

Well it would be a cool idea but your right its already there.

... then again... we already changed the ranks thus eliminating a few ranks and adding more... so TECHNICALLY it could work mwahahaha... ok I am done lol

[JC004]

It ain't broke, so why invent a fix. Put your golden pip in a shadow box and reminisce about it with your friends over a brew or two.

Second. No reason to realign stuff just so it's cool.

Man...clearly you are not qualified to be on the National Board either...

[High Speed Low Drag]

Guys - we were just saying how cool something might be --- not advocating the NB convene an emergency meeting and change it right now.   Lighten up.

[SarDragon]

Well, as much as I like my olde gold pip, I don't think the ideas that were presented proposing the return of its use are kool. Not at all.

YMMV.

[LTC Don]

Former c/Warrant Officer here (1983). 

I actually would support a re-alignment of the silver c/2Lt and c/Maj insignia to gold.  That would put it into proper color scheme with the USAF and CAP 2Lt and Major grades.  Otherwise, why bother with re-aligning/expanding the cadet enlisted/NCO grades, but then have heartburn over moving the cadet officer grades into the same compliance?

Cheers,

[davidsinn]

Former c/Warrant Officer here (1983). 

I actually would support a re-alignment of the silver c/2Lt and c/Maj insignia to gold.  That would put it into proper color scheme with the USAF and CAP 2Lt and Major grades.  Otherwise, why bother with re-aligning/expanding the cadet enlisted/NCO grades, but then have heartburn over moving the cadet officer grades into the same compliance?

Cheers,

The only reason the military has gold and silver insignia is because they use the same shape for two different grades. Each and every cadet grade has a unique shape. Besides incurring a measurable cost to cadet units and padding Vanguard's pocket what exactly does this fix?

[Hawk200]

Former c/Warrant Officer here (1983). 

I actually would support a re-alignment of the silver c/2Lt and c/Maj insignia to gold.  That would put it into proper color scheme with the USAF and CAP 2Lt and Major grades.  Otherwise, why bother with re-aligning/expanding the cadet enlisted/NCO grades, but then have heartburn over moving the cadet officer grades into the same compliance?

Cheers,

What compliance would that be? Cadet stripes go up to Cheif now. They didn't before. There was a little restructuring to eliminate the warrant officer, because it didn't mirror current Air Force officer rank structure.

What gain is realized by changing the colors on a few pips? One is 2LT, two is 1LT, three is CPT, and so on. Changing the colors throws things out of whack. And CAP has never used a gold diamond, so there's no precedence with us.

This is a non-solution looking for a home.

[High Speed Low Drag]

Former c/Warrant Officer here (1983). 

I actually would support a re-alignment of the silver c/2Lt and c/Maj insignia to gold.  That would put it into proper color scheme with the USAF and CAP 2Lt and Major grades.  Otherwise, why bother with re-aligning/expanding the cadet enlisted/NCO grades, but then have heartburn over moving the cadet officer grades into the same compliance?

Cheers,

What compliance would that be? Cadet stripes go up to Cheif now. They didn't before. There was a little restructuring to eliminate the warrant officer, because it didn't mirror current Air Force officer rank structure.

What gain is realized by changing the colors on a few pips? One is 2LT, two is 1LT, three is CPT, and so on. Changing the colors throws things out of whack. And CAP has never used a gold diamond, so there's no precedence with us.

This is a non-solution looking for a home.

It doesn't "fix" anything.  Some of us just thought it would be cool.  If yo don't like it, fine.  Do we expect it to happen - no.  Just an whimisical opinion that was posted on this thread about an item that a few of us wore at one time. 

[KioGoten]

Former c/Warrant Officer here (1983). 

I actually would support a re-alignment of the silver c/2Lt and c/Maj insignia to gold.  That would put it into proper color scheme with the USAF and CAP 2Lt and Major grades.  Otherwise, why bother with re-aligning/expanding the cadet enlisted/NCO grades, but then have heartburn over moving the cadet officer grades into the same compliance?

Cheers,

What compliance would that be? Cadet stripes go up to Cheif now. They didn't before. There was a little restructuring to eliminate the warrant officer, because it didn't mirror current Air Force officer rank structure.

What gain is realized by changing the colors on a few pips? One is 2LT, two is 1LT, three is CPT, and so on. Changing the colors throws things out of whack. And CAP has never used a gold diamond, so there's no precedence with us.

This is a non-solution looking for a home.

It doesn't "fix" anything.  Some of us just thought it would be cool.  If yo don't like it, fine.  Do we expect it to happen - no.  Just an whimisical opinion that was posted on this thread about an item that a few of us wore at one time.

Thank you thank you thank you.

I think some of you guys get way into this sometimes.  RELAX it is just a discussion.  We arent going to knock on HQ's door and demand that they change things.

Benefits of changing the cadet 2LT and Major ranks from silver to gold...
1) It would mimic the actual AF 2LT butter bar and the Major golden leaf.  These ranks are different colors YES because they have same shaped counter parts but if you go into military history it is not because they are the same shape, they could be different shapes all together, that is not the point.  The reason is to show that YES you have an officer here 2LT but he is very much a JUNIOR officer and it shows via the color.  The MAJ rank is the same way because once you go from Captain to Major you go from Junior Command to Senior.  BUT the color still reminds you that your new to switching to a higher responsibility you are NEW to higher command structure.

2) For those cadets who are going into the military, they can recognize the different between a 2LT and a 1LT when they have to salute and when they dont have to.  Looking for the color is crutial sometimes.  Me as a 2LT in the Guard, if its golden bar I dont salute and I am glad but if its silver (black subdued) you whip it out and salute


Bad reasons to change it

1) $$$$$$$$... enough said

2) People are set in their wways and dont want to change it.

3) It wouldnt get approved. but its a cool idea 


So just to restate what I was saying... guys relax this isnt going to get approved nor do we want to, just saying it would be cool to mimic the real thing w/ the cadets

[Hawk200]

I think some of you guys get way into this sometimes.  RELAX it is just a discussion. 

If it's just a discussion, then what does it matter if I disagree? 

[KioGoten]

Nothing is wrong ith it, but dont take it 2 seriously.  Just a discussion 

[Dragon 3-2]

i was just thinking about golden pips and diamonds the other day lol

personally if I was a cadet....i would have changed mine out in a heart beat for a gold pip or diamond. most senior members forget the cadets  in general want to inline with Ma Blue as much as possible when it comes to uniforms. IMHO

[DakRadz]

2) For those cadets who are going into the military, they can recognize the different between a 2LT and a 1LT when they have to salute and when they dont have to.

Erm.. I want to go into the military. I want to go to an Academy, actually- and I think this reason falls flat. The military will teach you this- it isn't CAP's place to give RM instruction/training to ALL cadets, when not nearly all cadets join up in the RM. Plus, if they don't learn from the SM ranks, well...

[Gunner C]

I think they should bring back the Golden Pip.

If these kids do go to the academy or RPTC and get commissioned as a 2LT they will know that it feels like to be called a butter bar and have that experience from being a FO or WO.

Now I know that the air force does not have WO's anymore, but it could be kept as a golden pip being a 2LT then after they pass their first or second test they could be promoted to the silver pip as being a seasoned 2LT.

What do you guys think?

Never happen. So those of us who once wore the golden pip with pride are gonna hafta look at it from a shadow box. CAP's cadet grade insignia is now aligned with Ma Blue's. And Ma Blue doesn't want warrant officers; she hasn't had any since about 1980.

Actually, USAFR CWO5 Bob Barrow, retired in 1992.

When I got my Mitchell in 1968, we were promoted to C/2d Lt.  The next group of Mitchells in our squadron were C/WOs.  I remember the CC and XO discussing whether they would have shoulder boards or not.  NHQ would sell shoulder boards only if you had a Mitchell.  So they decided that they would wear them.

[PHall]

Actually, USAFR CWO5 Bob Barrow, retired in 1992.

Pretty impressive considering that the Air Force never had CWO5's. They discontinued their Warrant Officer program in 1959.
CWO5 did not come about until the 1990's, and only in the other services.

[DakRadz]

Actually, USAFR CWO5 Bob Barrow, retired in 1992.

Pretty impressive considering that the Air Force never had CWO5's. They discontinued their Warrant Officer program in 1959.
CWO5 did not come about until the 1990's, and only in the other services.

I won't get into the CWO5 discussion, but all the sources I've seen (letter to the editor written by CWO4 Barrow, as CWO4 and retired- http://users.acninc.net/padipaul/pnl_04_2005_6og.htm) [also Military.com article] list him as CWO4.

EDIT: Disregard the Military.com reference: the same article contains the phrase "Confirmed by Wikipedia".....
The letter to the editor still stands as my proof.

[FlyTiger77]

... as a 2LT in the Guard, if its golden bar I dont salute and I am glad but if its silver (black subdued) you whip it out and salute...

Interesting. When I was a second lieutenant, we didn't salute first lieutenants and as a first lieutenant, I would correct any second lieutenants that saluted me.

[DakRadz]

Interesting. When I was a second lieutenant, we didn't salute first lieutenants...

I don't think age questions would be appropriate... 

[FlyTiger77]

I was a 1LT as late as 1994. Not that long ago, thank you very much!

[DakRadz]

Nossir, not at all 
Well, learn something new everyday.

Might have noticed that back then, if I hadn't been 1 1/2....  :angel:

[Gunner C]

Actually, USAFR CWO5 Bob Barrow, retired in 1992.

Pretty impressive considering that the Air Force never had CWO5's. They discontinued their Warrant Officer program in 1959.
CWO5 did not come about until the 1990's, and only in the other services.

From the Warrant Officer Historical Association:

Historical Note - The last active duty Air Force warrant officer, CWO-4 James H. Long, retired in 1980 and the last Air Force Reserve warrant officer, CWO-4 Bob Barrow, retired in 1992. Upon his retirement, he was promoted to CWO-5, the only person in the Air Force ever to hold this grade.[2] Barrow passed away in April 2008.[10] Since Barrow's retirement, the Air Force warrant officer ranks, while still authorized by law, are not used.

[Gunner C]

... as a 2LT in the Guard, if its golden bar I dont salute and I am glad but if its silver (black subdued) you whip it out and salute...

Interesting. When I was a second lieutenant, we didn't salute first lieutenants and as a first lieutenant, I would correct any second lieutenants that saluted me.

Warrant officers do not exchange salutes, either.  For Army WOs, it is the tradition that they address each other by their first name.

[FlyTiger77]

... as a 2LT in the Guard, if its golden bar I don't salute and I am glad but if its silver (black subdued) you whip it out and salute...

Interesting. When I was a second lieutenant, we didn't salute first lieutenants and as a first lieutenant, I would correct any second lieutenants that saluted me.

Warrant officers do not exchange salutes, either.  For Army WOs, it is the tradition that they address each other by their first name.

WIWA1LT, we didn't get too worked up over warrant officers not saluting us unless officers of OTHER branches were around, either. One day, the CW4 in my unit slipped up and called me, "Sir." I promised not to tell anyone. It would have ruined his reputation.