Change the "V" device

[OldSalt]

The "V" device on the Disaster Relief Ribbon discredits CAP's AF military heritage. Here's the argument in a nutshell - When I wear the AF Style uniform and I am on an AF (or other U.S. military base) and I wear my Disaster Relief Ribbon with "V" device - the AF personnel who see me wearing it will automatically think "V" for Valor in combat - not "V" for Presidential Civilian Emergency Services.

The use of any "V" device on a military type ribbon here in the U.S. carries with it a responsibility to use it appropriately. There are many other ribbon devices that can take the place of the "V" device on CAP ribbons that won't subject us to potential "military wannabe status" in the eyes of our AF compatriots.

I'd like to suggest changing the "V" device to just enclosing the ribbon within a gold frame like the Presidential Unit Citation or in the case of AF ribbons - the below:

Air Force Expeditionary Service Ribbon Air Force Expeditionary Ribbon with and without gold border Any Thoughts?

[Eclipse]

Thoughts?

[Pingree1492]

Seriously??  Again??  Wish I had a good 'beating the dead horse' icon.

If you want to move us away from "military wannabe status" in your words, then don't suggest using the gold border.  You're just trading one "wannabe" device for another.


EDIT- thanks Eclipse... though I don't recall that scene in Office Space- did you replace the printer with a horse yourself??

[SarDragon]

Seriously??  Again??  Wish I had a good 'beating the dead horse' icon.

Like this?     

[Eclipse]

EDIT- thanks Eclipse... though I don't recall that scene in Office Space- did you replace the printer with a horse yourself??

Not mine, but brilliant none the less...

[a2capt]

I can't imagine this all not being thought out when they initially authorized the device in the first place.

Sigh...

In other words, it is what it is, wear it and be proud of it, or don't wear it. If someone asks, explain it to them.

[OldSalt]

I can't imagine this all not being thought out when they initially authorized the device in the first place.

Seriously? You are kidding here - right?

And, nothing here is a dead horse.  Here's a suggestion. If you don't have something constructive to say, then please don't bother replying. Just ignore these types of threads and we'll all be better off.

[SarDragon]

It appears to me that most of the respondents disagree with you. Continuing to force your opinion on us is nonproductive.

Get over it. If you think the "V" use on a CAP ribbon is so reprehensible, send it up the chain and see what the movers and shakers say. Just don't count on the folks on CT for a lot of support.

[Major Carrales]

Man, this is amazing... why change it to the gold frame...so some schmuck will have this same discussion entitled (only with a minor change) "Change the Gold Frame" stating that it is an insult to the USAF practice.  I'm awaiting those old weekly "WHY A US FLAG" threadsters to come out of hiding.

For the last time...the Silver "V" on the Ribbon is a CAP tradition, comparisons to the "bronze" military device is not a fair one.

But, if one wanted to go there...

For lack of a better source, and sense this thread keeps coming up as a weekly event...WIKI TIME!!!

The Valor device (also known as a combat distinguishing device, "V" device, and Combat V) is an award of the United States military which is a bronze attachment to certain medals to indicate that it was received for valor. The device serves as a clarification for medals that are awarded for both valor (bravery in the face of the enemy), and merit (an extraordinary job under noncombat conditions).

If you wanted to "go there" I would imagine that CAP deployment to a Presidentially declared emergency would constitute "an extraordinary job under noncombat conditions."

There...I feel dirty debating this issue.  Just wear your uniform as it is to be worn as per CAP TRADITIONS.

It is amazing how the same topics keep getting brought up here ad infinitem.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

While we're at it, someone should petition the National Board to allow the substitution of oak leaf clusters for the triangular clasps. They're much neater, and they're much less cumbersome when you have multiple awards, especially when you mix silver and bronze.

[Hawk200]

While we're at it, someone should petition the National Board to allow the substitution of oak leaf clusters for the triangular clasps. They're much neater, and they're much less cumbersome when you have multiple awards, especially when you mix silver and bronze.

+1

OLC's would be a lot easier, and more readily available. Not sure when they came around, but they're really unnecessary. They should go the way of the cartoon ribbons.

[SarDragon]

While we're at it, someone should petition the National Board to allow the substitution of oak leaf clusters for the triangular clasps. They're much neater, and they're much less cumbersome when you have multiple awards, especially when you mix silver and bronze.

+1

OLC's would be a lot easier, and more readily available. Not sure when they came around, but they're really unnecessary. They should go the way of the cartoon ribbons.

My source sez 1957.

[Major Carrales]

While we're at it, someone should petition the National Board to allow the substitution of oak leaf clusters for the triangular clasps. They're much neater, and they're much less cumbersome when you have multiple awards, especially when you mix silver and bronze.

+1

OLC's would be a lot easier, and more readily available. Not sure when they came around, but they're really unnecessary. They should go the way of the cartoon ribbons.

Hawk,

Entertain this notion a minute.  Remember that there is supposed to be a distinction between CAP awards and uniforms from those of military.  I have already visited the issue on onther forums that think we shouldn't even be allowed ribbons.   It seems very logical to have those devices, however, those are the distinctions of other services.  Unlike the "V," which finds its origin in another time (as well as approved my USAF measures for CAP use) and is only here-hence being discussed into being something that it is not.  The others would be changes from a CAP tradition to the tradition of another service.

The TRI-PROPS are also CAP traditional.  Mark my word, once oak leaves, or hour glasses or the like are added.  More posts such as this one will circulate creating unncessary ridicule.

That is why I must negate your comments and the proposal of Buckeye.  Let's leave it like it is, destinctive and free from unneed commentary.

[ColonelJack]

I have already visited the issue on onther forums that think we shouldn't even be allowed ribbons. 

Sparky ...

Who out there doesn't think CAP should have ribbons?  That's one I never heard ...

Jack

[Eclipse]

I can't imagine this all not being thought out when they initially authorized the device in the first place.

Seriously? You are kidding here - right?

And, nothing here is a dead horse.  Here's a suggestion. If you don't have something constructive to say, then please don't bother replying. Just ignore these types of threads and we'll all be better off.

Here's a better suggestion - use the SEARCH function and find there was already an active thread on this EXACT topic.

[Spike]

First post in a while on my part........BLAH!!!!!

Really?!?!?!??! 

If a person has problems wearing the device, they should just "NOT WEAR IT".  How simple can this get.  The AIR FORCE had to approve the device at one point, so legally it is allowed by CAPers to wear.

Point stated, counterpoint made.....Winner....SPIKE!!!

[arajca]

Not wearing the "V" on the DR ribbon changes the nature of the award. Due to the work involved in getting the plain DR ribbon (I had on as a cadet) I have more respect for that than the one with the "V", which you get for just being at a PDD in a CAP capacity (I've got a couple of those as well).

[OldSalt]

Not wearing the "V" on the DR ribbon changes the nature of the award. Due to the work involved in getting the plain DR ribbon (I had on as a cadet) I have more respect for that than the one with the "V", which you get for just being at a PDD in a CAP capacity (I've got a couple of those as well).

My point exactly - I'm not suggesting the change from the "V" device to a gold frame (or something else) just for kicks, and CAP tradition is important to maintain. However, whether we (CAP) likes it or not, wearing a "V" device on any military style ribbon (I know - CAP ribbons are not military...blah, blah, blah) is not to be taken lightly. How many times are we told that we cannot get away from the fact that when you are wearing the AF Style uniform you are representing the AF in no small way as an Auxiliary Member. I think it's obvious that the AF originally approved the change to the use of the silver "V" device for us rather than the original regulation language of the bronze "V" device by splitting hairs. The reason they changed it from bronze to silver - hmmm, what could be the reason here?

If you're not a military veteran then it's probably a little harder here to make the internal connection on this. This is not a slam, just ingrained training. When a veteran sees a "V" device they immediately think combat valor - nothing else. In the military there is no "other color" "V" device - just one, and it's only purpose is combat related.

On a more protocol level, the "V" device is never used for Service or Unit Awards - only Personal Decorations. The Disaster Relief Ribbon is a CAP Service Award.

The quote above from "Wikipedia" is not authoritative as to the awarding of the "V" device for other than combat valor or operations. Show me in an official reg of any service where someone received a "V" device for something noncombat related and I'll apologize for being incorrect.

If you think this doesn't matter - review the case of Navy Admiral Jeremy Boorda.

In short, my suggestion isn't a slam on CAP or CAP traditions to honor CAP members for exemplary service, it's more an action of let's find an appropriate way to recognize the nature of the award than to give the effect of usurping a cultural icon's original intent for something other than it was intended. Simply changing from a bronze color to a silver color doesn't do it in my book.

The use of colored devices doesn't denote a change in the nature of the award - it is used to denote a numerical amount of subsequent awards. So, thinking this through logically and within tradition, a silver "V" device would indicate multiple awards (5 or 10) of bronze "V" devices - not a different type of award.

[Eclipse]

If you think this doesn't matter - review the case of Navy Admiral Jeremy Boorda.

His tragic story is not remotely relevant to this conversation.

[lordmonar]

My point exactly - I'm not suggesting the change from the "V" device to a gold frame (or something else) just for kicks, and CAP tradition is important to maintain. However, whether we (CAP) likes it or not, wearing a "V" device on any military style ribbon (I know - CAP ribbons are not military...blah, blah, blah) is not to be taken lightly. How many times are we told that we cannot get away from the fact that when you are wearing the AF Style uniform you are representing the AF in no small way as an Auxiliary Member. I think it's obvious that the AF originally approved the change to the use of the silver "V" device for us rather than the original regulation language of the bronze "V" device by splitting hairs. The reason they changed it from bronze to silver - hmmm, what could be the reason here?

Okay.....you are arguing yourself into a circle.

First.....from a military perspective.....unless the "V" device is on a BSM, SM or some such medal......it does not mean that much in the military.  And for those with a V device on a "real medal" it is not always that big of a deal either.

I got two USAF Outstanding Unit Awards with Bronze V device......because 20 people out of a unit with over 1000 in it deployed into a "hot" combat zone.

No one in the USAF is going to get bent out of shape because our Disaster Response Medal has a V device.  If asked what you got the "V" for you say "because the disaster I responded to was a Presidential Declared Disaster Zone".  Same story with my AFOUA with V device....if you ask...I'll say it was for being an outstanding unit during armed conflict.  End of story.

Don't try to add controversy where non exists.

If you're not a military veteran then it's probably a little harder here to make the internal connection on this. This is not a slam, just ingrained training. When a veteran sees a "V" device they immediately think combat valor - nothing else. In the military there is no "other color" "V" device - just one, and it's only purpose is combat related.

Yes....so.  As a military veteran when I see a set of stars on someones collar I think of General.....not police chief...but I know the difference between the police and an AD uniform.  Granted most veterans cannot tell the difference between a CAP uniform and a USAF uniform...but it only takes about 5 minutes to educate them.

On a more protocol level, the "V" device is never used for Service or Unit Awards - only Personal Decorations. The Disaster Relief Ribbon is a CAP Service Award.

Absolutely false!

The quote above from "Wikipedia" is not authoritative as to the awarding of the "V" device for other than combat valor or operations. Show me in an official reg of any service where someone received a "V" device for something noncombat related and I'll apologize for being incorrect.

Well that is the danger of Wikipedia....here is the appropriate DOD regulation.

AP2.1.2.6.3.2. "V" Device. A bronze "V" device when the award of the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award is made to a unit for combat or direct combat support.

If you think this doesn't matter - review the case of Navy Admiral Jeremy Boorda.

Now you are really going off the deep end.  Be careful young padawan.  The Admiral Boorda issue is very dangerous ground.

In short, my suggestion isn't a slam on CAP or CAP traditions to honor CAP members for exemplary service, it's more an action of let's find an appropriate way to recognize the nature of the award than to give the effect of usurping a cultural icon's original intent for something other than it was intended. Simply changing from a bronze color to a silver color doesn't do it in my book.

It is a slam on CAP...because you are saying we don't deserve the recognition we have developed for ourselves.  It starts down a slipper slope.  Can't use purple on the Curry Ribbon because it looks too much like a Purple Heart and any veteran sees purple he immediately things war wounds.

It is impossible to have a military style uniform with out borrowing something from the military.  We needed s device to denote the difference between the Disaster Preparedness Training Ribbon and the Disaster Preparedness Service Ribbon.  They used a bronze "V"....because it was easy, available and cheap. 

[OldSalt]

Okay.....you are arguing yourself into a circle.

First.....from a military perspective.....unless the "V" device is on a BSM, SM or some such medal......it does not mean that much in the military.  And for those with a V device on a "real medal" it is not always that big of a deal either.

This is just your opinion. If it wasn't a "big deal" then why even have the "V" device in the first place? If it really doesn't matter, then just get rid of it.

Don't try to add controversy where non exists.  Absolutely false!  AP2.1.2.6.3.2. "V" Device. A bronze "V" device when the award of the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award is made to a unit for combat or direct combat support.

Okay, I stand corrected on the use of the "V" device on some Unit Awards. However, your DOD quote reinforces my point that the "V" device is never issued for anything other than combat operations (and thanks for not referencing Wikipedia as authoritative).

Now you are really going off the deep end.  Be careful young padawan.  The Admiral Boorda issue is very dangerous ground.

For the record, I was not pointing out that Admiral Boorda did anything himself out of malice. I was only pointing out an illustration that (as exampled here), it means a great deal for the powers that be to get it right the first time. From reading his case, you can see that all of the inconsistencies in the awards system and record keeping led him to honestly believe that he had lawfully earned the awards in question. Lots of veterans think they are entitled to a certain award and wear it proudly, only to find out later that they are wearing it wrong, or it wasn't really awarded that way in terms of the "letter of the law".

In the extreme case of Admiral Boorda, the inconsistencies and lack of clarity on the part of the Navy, ultimately caused this otherwise outstanding officer to doubt himself, and for others to doubt him. I for one am trying to keep this type of confusion from similarly affecting anyone else to such a heartbreaking end. Bottom line is, for a great many of our troops, this sort of thing does matter very much.

It is a slam on CAP...because you are saying we don't deserve the recognition we have developed for ourselves.

Wrong, that is not what I am saying at all. What I am saying is that CAP did not develop this recognition device ourselves. We took the military tradition of using their "V" device, but are using it in CAP for a different purpose and with a different meaning. If I was talking about the CAP only triangle / prop devices, then you could make a case.

It is impossible to have a military style uniform with out borrowing something from the military.  We needed s device to denote the difference between the Disaster Preparedness Training Ribbon and the Disaster Preparedness Service Ribbon.  They used a bronze "V"....because it was easy, available and cheap.

Wrong here. We only have one Disaster Relief Ribbon in CAP - not 2. We do have 2 different award criteria for the same ribbon - one for training etc. and one for Presidentially declared service. The idea that a "V" device was decided upon rather than something more appropriate because it was easy, available, and cheap is a cop out. There are a lot of other devices that are just as readily available, easy, and cheap that cannot be confused in any way for an award for combat valor.

Here's a test to try sometime - put up a row of ribbons of any U.S. military or paramilitary service, and include a CAP DRR with "V". Then show the rack to anyone with a military background and ask them which one in the rack is specifically for combat valor.

[lordmonar]

Okay....last one first.

We have two (2) Disaster Relief Ribbons.

1) Disaster Relief Ribbon
2) Disaster Relief Ribbon with "V" Device

One if for training and one is for service during a Presidential Declared Disaster.

They use the same ribbon....but the "V" device is not an add on as it is to any other military award that is allowed a "V" device.

Second...We are CAP not the U.S. Military (TM).  By saying that we (CAP) can't or should not use a particular device because of how the military uses them....is attempt to equate us with the military.  It is the letter V....a silver one at that.  If you are so stuck on "V for valor'.....why not just say it is "V for vigilance' and be done with it.

Third....I'll say no more about Admiral Borda.  I had to live through that time and it made many of military people very angry.

Fourth...You have to understand what the military means by "direct combat support".  The guy at the chow hall at RAF Mildenhall is providing direct combat support to the F-15 flying combat operations in Bosnia.  I got my first "V" in Japan and my second one in Nevada.  Neither one of them got me any more points to promotion or improved my chances for a good assignment.

Finally....yes it is just my opinion.  I retired in Oct '08 after 22 years in the USAF.  When I see a BSM with V or a SSM with V....or heck even an AFAM with V....I am suitable impressed.....sometimes.  But not a "V" on an AFOUA.

I don't think the average Joe USAF guy even know who CAP is and they are not going to get bent out of shape that the silver V is awarded with the DR Ribbon.

Bottom line is that there is not a problem.  We know what the V means.....if we explain it to others then we correct their misperceptions of what it means.

No need to go change everything just because you are manufacturing a problem that does not exist.

[RiverAux]

One if for training and one is for service during a Presidential Declared Disaster.

Somewhat misleading.  Participation in actual (or yes, training) sorites is required for the ribbon without the device and those sorties can be on any disaster. 

[OldSalt]

We have two (2) Disaster Relief Ribbons.

1) Disaster Relief Ribbon
2) Disaster Relief Ribbon with "V" Device

One if for training and one is for service during a Presidential Declared Disaster.

They use the same ribbon....but the "V" device is not an add on as it is to any other military award that is allowed a "V" device.

Okay, now I'm really confused. I just took a look at the latest CAPR 39-3 dated 22 FEB 2010 and you apparently are correct. Chapter 21 paragraphs "f" and "g" now define 2 separate awards. So, for those of us who have been awarded one DRR for training and regular DR participation, and one for Presidential duty, we wear 2 of the same ribbon now, except 1 has a "V" device. Whose idea was that one? Why do we persist in making it difficult to determine what someone has been awarded (see "the upside-down rule": Gill Robb Wilson vs. National Cmdr's Citation. "The swap one stripe rule": Community Service Ribbon vs. Command Service Ribbon, and "the add some stars rule": BMV vs. SMV).

Where is this in keeping with tradition? Whose money are we saving here? Hey, here's a great idea if saving money is all we are looking to do, let's save a ton of money and just use the membership ribbon design for everything and just add different devices to it. Afterall it's completely logical right? Level 1, you get 1 membership ribbon. Level 2 - here's another membership ribbon, but this one has a 2 on it. Unit Citation - great, put another Membership ribbon on, but put a big "U" device on it. Wait, you got a FIND, whohoo! Here's another membership ribbon, but this one has a silver prop on it. Heck take it a step further and just use one 6 inch long membership ribbon and just add devices for each different award. Afterall - it all about volunteer membership right? Why even keep to any type of "ribbon tradition". Let's just all get facial tatoos like in the Kurt Russell "Soldier" movie.
Ok, sorry. I digress.     

I do stand corrected on the 2 vs 1 award. I apologize for not reading the latest regs first.  :angel: Someone needs to change attachment 3 in CAPR 39-3 cause there is only one ribbon there now. BTW, What is the order of precedence now? Is the "V" ribbon higher on the food chain than the regular ribbon? Looks like another corrected copy is needed ASAP.

Second...We are CAP not the U.S. Military (TM).  By saying that we (CAP) can't or should not use a particular device because of how the military uses them....is attempt to equate us with the military.  It is the letter V....a silver one at that.  If you are so stuck on "V for valor'.....why not just say it is "V for vigilance' and be done with it.

Nice try, but does anyone buy this? Are we or are we not the AF Auxiliary? What does AF stand for anyway - Alma Fudd - Elmer's wife?

Finally....yes it is just my opinion.

Thanks for the clarification.    

No need to go change everything just because you are manufacturing a problem that does not exist.

Is this CAP or the Obama administration? Just because you say there is no problem doesn't make it so.

[SarDragon]

OK, let's take a quick vote.

How many of the participants in this thread think there is a problem?

How many of the participants in this thread think there is not a problem?

My vote is NOT.

[Eclipse]

Okay, now I'm really confused. I just took a look at the latest CAPR 39-3 dated 22 FEB 2010 and you apparently are correct. Chapter 21 paragraphs "f" and "g" now define 2 separate awards. So, for those of us who have been awarded one DRR for training and regular DR participation, and one for Presidential duty, we wear 2 of the same ribbon now, except 1 has a "V" device.

Its been that way for quite a while.  Nothing new there - they are separate awards for different duty.

Vote = NOT.

[Hawk200]

No need to go change everything just because you are manufacturing a problem that does not exist.

Is this CAP or the Obama administration? Just because you say there is no problem doesn't make it so.

The thing is that no one else has stated it's a problem. I've never heard of anyone in the miltary having an issue with it. If military people don't have a problem with it, then it's not a problem.

There are a few ribbons that look far more similar to military ones that could be issues, but aren't because no one made it one. Why make it an issue?

To flip the statement, just because you say there is a problem doesn't make it so.

[Hawk200]

OK, let's take a quick vote.

How many of the participants in this thread think there is a problem?

How many of the participants in this thread think there is not a problem?

My vote is NOT.

NOT.

[lordmonar]

OK, let's take a quick vote.

How many of the participants in this thread think there is a problem?

How many of the participants in this thread think there is not a problem?

My vote is NOT.

Not

[lordmonar]

Why do we persist in making it difficult to determine what someone has been awarded (see "the upside-down rule": Gill Robb Wilson vs. National Cmdr's Citation. "The swap one stripe rule": Community Service Ribbon vs. Command Service Ribbon, and "the add some stars rule": BMV vs. SMV).

Well on the BMV/SMV issue I think it was just to save money.  No need to develope a whole new ribbon and medal for the 3-4 your award per decade.

On the GRW vs the NCC I think again it was an effort to save money. the NCC no longer exists so they just flipped the ribbon when the created the GRW ribbon.

The community service ribbon vs the commadn servie ribbon was probably just laziness..... It's not just a CAP thing....look at the different NATO service medals and some of the Navy's ribbons.

[Al Sayre]

NOT

[OldSalt]

To flip the statement, just because you say there is a problem doesn't make it so.

Touche' - this is all just opinions.

Seriously though - I had an epiphany that wouldn't cost us any money, or any real heartburn, is incredibly simple to implement, and would satisfy even the most discriminating "award criteria and display nerd".

Ready for this - swap the devices between the Silver Medal of Valor and the Disaster Relief Ribbon. Put the silver "V" device on the Silver Medal of Valor, and put the silver stars on the Disaster Ribbon. Now, who has a problem with that? 

[vento]

OK, let's take a quick vote.

How many of the participants in this thread think there is a problem?

How many of the participants in this thread think there is not a problem?

My vote is NOT.

NOT

[OldSalt]

...swap the devices between the Silver Medal of Valor and the Disaster Relief Ribbon. Put the silver "V" device on the Silver Medal of Valor, and put the silver stars on the Disaster Ribbon.

To expound further, this idea is definitely keeping with tradition because if you think of the DRR with "V" device as a Campaign Ribbon, then the use of stars to denote a Presidentially Declared Emergency fits perfectly. Similarly, I don't think you'd get an argument from anyone given the significant and heroic nature of the award criteria for the SMV if you put a silver "V" device on it - and it addresses my argument. You wouldn't have to explain to anyone that the silver "V" device is for valor on a Silver Medal of Valor ribbon.  :clap:   

[a2capt]

NOT ...

..and as I said, and was said, we wear it- and we explain it. Life goes on. No one gets bent. I've never heard of anyone getting bent over it. Not even before it was explained.

It is .. what it is.

[lordmonar]

Ready for this - swap the devices between the Silver Medal of Valor and the Disaster Relief Ribbon. Put the silver "V" device on the Silver Medal of Valor, and put the silver stars on the Disaster Ribbon. Now, who has a problem with that? 

Why?

SMV looks nice with the three stars.
Three stars on the DR"V" would interfere with the ability to show multiple awards.
Plus all the SMV and DR"V" wearers out there would have to buy new ribbons and devices.   You got $400+ to reimburse them because you don't like the V on a non-combat ribbon?

[MIKE]

^ IMO the three stars looks dumb on the SMV... This is the case for the silver and bronze "V" IMO.

[Hawk200]

^ IMO the three stars looks dumb on the SMV... This is the case for the silver and bronze "V" IMO.

Still think we should have a separate ribbon for the Silver. We seem to have all these other lower ribbons with new designs, but we can't design a new drape for the Silver? Seems a little off to me.

[Major Carrales]

OK, let's take a quick vote.

How many of the participants in this thread think there is a problem?

How many of the participants in this thread think there is not a problem?

My vote is NOT.

My vote is also NOT.  "Artificial controversy" is often a "soup d'jour" here that needs to be ordered less and eventually taken off the menu.

[PHall]

NOT

This is an "answer" looking for a problem.

[arajca]

Not

[JC004]

I don't see it as a huge issue.  Maybe a star would be alright, but whatever.

[necigrad]

From a lurker standpoint, lemme volunteer a different perspective.  Why should we use a "V" when it's the ONLY award in CAP (that I'm aware of) that uses it?  Why couldn't' it be a bronze or silver star which are used on a few more awards?  Personally I couldn't care either way, just something this argu...  conversation got me to thinking about.

[SarDragon]

OK, ten nots; and one assumed yes.

Any other takers?

[Al Sayre]

To flip the statement, just because you say there is a problem doesn't make it so.

Touche' - this is all just opinions.

Seriously though - I had an epiphany that wouldn't cost us any money, or any real heartburn, is incredibly simple to implement, and would satisfy even the most discriminating "award criteria and display nerd".

Ready for this - swap the devices between the Silver Medal of Valor and the Disaster Relief Ribbon. Put the silver "V" device on the Silver Medal of Valor, and put the silver stars on the Disaster Ribbon. Now, who has a problem with that? 

Do you have either or both awards?  Are you going to pay for me and everyone else who has either or both awards to rework our ribbon racks to satisfy your whim?  These ideas cost members real dollars, anywhere from ~$2.00 (without shipping) for a ribbon and device to close to $100 for a new set of ultra-thins.  I personally know of at least 75 people who have the DR with V since I was the IC for the Ike & Gustav missions in MS and signed the paperwork.  I'm sure there are several thousand folks who have it for various floods, hurricanes, tornados, etc. and there will probably be some more for the folks working the oil spill missions.  Are you working for Vanguard?

[jeders]

OK, let's take a quick vote.

How many of the participants in this thread think there is a problem?

How many of the participants in this thread think there is not a problem?

My vote is NOT.

is.........NOT

[OldSalt]

From a lurker standpoint, lemme volunteer a different perspective.  Why should we use a "V" when it's the ONLY award in CAP (that I'm aware of) that uses it?  Why couldn't' it be a bronze or silver star which are used on a few more awards?

^ IMO the three stars looks dumb on the SMV... This is the case for the silver and bronze "V" IMO.

Finally, some people with credible additions to the discussion, thanks.  :clap:  I would bet that underneath it all, the people who want the "V" device kept on the DRR really want a "V" device to show, and don't really care that it is appropriate or not. While I wouldn't necessarily say it "looks dumb", I would choose to say there's a more appropriate way to display it.

Do you have either or both awards?  Are you going to pay for me and everyone else who has either or both awards to rework our ribbon racks to satisfy your whim?  These ideas cost members real dollars, anywhere from ~$2.00 (without shipping) for a ribbon and device to close to $100 for a new set of ultra-thins.  I personally know of at least 75 people who have the DR with V since I was the IC for the Ike & Gustav missions in MS and signed the paperwork.  I'm sure there are several thousand folks who have it for various floods, hurricanes, tornados, etc. and there will probably be some more for the folks working the oil spill missions.  Are you working for Vanguard?

What is the operating budget of CAP? Anyone? Why wouldn't CAPNHQ spring for the $400.00 or more for a one-time replacement? Surely it is worth it to National to make sure that anyone who receives an award, especially our highest award for valor - wouldn't have to worry about the $2.00 possible outlay. Afterall, it is a earned award - right? We don't sell appropriate recognition do we? This is a red herring similar to the DoD's refusal to create a Cold War Victory / Service Medal because of "cost".

Here's a question back at you bean counters - Do you think that those volunteers that risked their lives for others stopped to count the cost before rendering their service to anyone? And no, I am not a Vanguard employee and I hate having to pay out the nose for things just like the rest of you - but this issue cannot be reduced strickly to "cost". How much does it "cost" to save lives and prepare our Cadets for their future roles as leaders?

Silver "V" is more appropriate on the SMV than stars. It actually means what it is designed to show. Put the campaign stars on the Disaster Relief Ribbon where they are most appropriate.

[MIKE]

I would put an Operational Distinguishing device on the DR ribbon, but that is just me.   
http://www.vanguardmil.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=9_523_2291_2293&products_id=8843

[Hawk200]

This is a red herring similar to the DoD's refusal to create a Cold War Victory / Service Medal because of "cost".

Let's stop drawing paralells for lines that aren't even close. 

How much does it "cost" to save lives and prepare our Cadets for their future roles as leaders?

What does a ribbon device have to do with preparing cadets for leadership?

Silver "V" is more appropriate on the SMV than stars. It actually means what it is designed to show.

No, it's not appropriate on the SMV. What's appropriate for the SMV is a distinctive design. Right now it's just a BMV with attachments to make is something different.  It needs its own ribbon, not attachments changing the meaning of another one. That kind of change I could accept, it provides dignified distinctiveness appropriate to the award.

Put the campaign stars on the Disaster Relief Ribbon where they are most appropriate.

We don't have campaign stars. We don't have campaigns. Period.

However, there is no need to change it. What do we gain by doing so? What benefit does it serve? It's not going to make the military change their opinion of us. It certainly doesn't do anything for those barely familiar with CAP. What problem does this solve?

If it doesn't solve a problem, it is change for the sake of change. "Because we can" is not the same as "because we should".

[Al Sayre]

snip

Do you have either or both awards?  Are you going to pay for me and everyone else who has either or both awards to rework our ribbon racks to satisfy your whim?  These ideas cost members real dollars, anywhere from ~$2.00 (without shipping) for a ribbon and device to close to $100 for a new set of ultra-thins.  I personally know of at least 75 people who have the DR with V since I was the IC for the Ike & Gustav missions in MS and signed the paperwork.  I'm sure there are several thousand folks who have it for various floods, hurricanes, tornados, etc. and there will probably be some more for the folks working the oil spill missions.  Are you working for Vanguard?

What is the operating budget of CAP? Anyone? Why wouldn't CAPNHQ spring for the $400.00 or more for a one-time replacement? Surely it is worth it to National to make sure that anyone who receives an award, especially our highest award for valor - wouldn't have to worry about the $2.00 possible outlay. Afterall, it is a earned award - right? We don't sell appropriate recognition do we? This is a red herring similar to the DoD's refusal to create a Cold War Victory / Service Medal because of "cost".

snip

Not sure where you get $400.00 from  figure $2.00 x 10,000 members (assume 1/5 of the total member population has DR with V) =  $20,000.00  If you were talking about replacing ultra-thins too, then(assume 1/2 of that population has ultra-thins) $50.00 x 5000 + $2.00 x 5000 = $260,000.00 over 1/4 million dollars out of member pockets just to replace a single ribbon.  Where is that going to come from?

[OldSalt]

I would put an Operational Distinguishing device on the DR ribbon, but that is just me.   
http://www.vanguardmil.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=9_523_2291_2293&products_id=8843

Not sure of the criteria for an "O" - but I'd rather explain that the "O" is for a "Declared Emergency Operation" rather than trying to explain that a "V" device is for it. It just makes more sense. Think of it this way - would you put an "O" device on the SMV and then explain to people that the "O" is for Valor? 

Let's stop drawing paralells for lines that aren't even close.

The parallel is that both situations rely on "cost" as the deciding factor denying implementation.   

What does a ribbon device have to do with preparing cadets for leadership?

Let's see... how about Risk vs. Reward, Excellence vs. "Just Ok", Good Morale and Espirit de Corps vs. Just Showing Up

No, it's not appropriate on the SMV. What's appropriate for the SMV is a distinctive design. Right now it's just a BMV with attachments to make is something different.  It needs its own ribbon, not attachments changing the meaning of another one. That kind of change I could accept, it provides dignified distinctiveness appropriate to the award.

Hey, something we can agree on.    This would be the best possible outcome, however, there's that "cost" thing again. 

We don't have campaign stars. We don't have campaigns. Period.

Campaigns = Operations. Ok, let's just call them "Operation Stars". One star per Operation.

However, there is no need to change it. What do we gain by doing so? What benefit does it serve? It's not going to make the military change their opinion of us. It certainly doesn't do anything for those barely familiar with CAP. What problem does this solve?

If it doesn't solve a problem, it is change for the sake of change. "Because we can" is not the same as "because we should".

The "problem" being discussed is that the "V" device on the DRR is inappropriate. The "problem" is that the silver "V" device (if used at all) would be better utilized on the SMV - not the DRR. The "problem" is using the wrong tool for the job at hand. Could you do the job with the tool we have now? - Yes, but will it result in the best possible outcome given the job requirements? - No.

Not sure where you get $400.00 from  figure $2.00 x 10,000 members (assume 1/5 of the total member population has DR with V) =  $20,000.00  If you were talking about replacing ultra-thins too, then(assume 1/2 of that population has ultra-thins) $50.00 x 5000 + $2.00 x 5000 = $260,000.00 over 1/4 million dollars out of member pockets just to replace a single ribbon.  Where is that going to come from?

I think the $400.00 estimate was brought up for the SMV costs - not the DRR w/V. Ultrathins? Those are a personal preference - not a requirement. Those you purchase on your own. I think Ultrathin will add or replace ribbons to an existing set for a minimum cost. As far as devices alone - they are just glued on (Ultrathins). Pop off the old one and glue on the new. Done.

Basically, the gist is "Do the Right Thing" vs. "Keep the Cost Down". There's more to running a business than just running a business - there's running an ethical business you can be proud of.

What about funding it with the kickbacks from Vanguard we are supposedly getting?

[Eclipse]

I would bet that underneath it all, the people who want the "V" device kept on the DRR really want a "V" device to show, and don't really care that it is appropriate or not.

And I would say you are 100% wrong.

This is a combination of not worrying about things which don't need attention and understanding the true nature of CAP, including the evolving history of its decorations.

For the record, comparing the decorations of one service to another is foolhardy and insulting to both, especially when you are comparing a combatant service to a benevolent one.  The fact that you simply choose to ignore the full, multi-faceted use of the "V" across various services because it hurts your argument is humorous as well.

Opinions are awesome, we all have them, enjoy yours, but just because you feel you've had some revelation about an injustice doesn't mean anyone else cares or agrees, nor does it mean that those who feel status quo is fine somehow just "don't get it".

[lordmonar]

Okay.....since we are are talking about the "V" not being appropriate because "V" is for Valor..........we (and I said this before) just tell everyone that "V" is for "Vigilance".


End of story.

No one has to buy new ribbons.
No "real" veterans will get bent out of shape (not that they are now).
No confusion with the Bronze "V" on AD military ribbons (which there is not any right now).

Your not really making any head way because your basic premise is false.

"V" for vigilance is an appropriate device to denote service during a presidential declared disaster.

[Eclipse]

"V" for vigilance is an appropriate device to denote service during a presidential declared disaster.

I recall that this has always been what it represented.  Anyone saying otherwise is simply misinformed and we need to
correct their understanding politely.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_hole

Kidding aside, the word "valor" is never used in connection with the DR-V within CAP parlance, so whatever conjecture is applied to its meaning is in the eyes of the beholder and should not be our concern.

Vote = Vigilance.

[OldSalt]

This is a combination of not worrying about things which don't need attention and understanding the true nature of CAP, including the evolving history of its decorations.

Huh? OK, I'll bite - what is THE reason for the selection (and keeping) of the "V" device for the DRR?

For the record, comparing the decorations of one service to another is foolhardy and insulting to both, especially when you are comparing a combatant service to a benevolent one.  The fact that you simply choose to ignore the full, multi-faceted use of the "V" across various services because it hurts your argument is humorous as well.

Complete hearsay here. The insult is using a "V" device for something it is not historically designed for. What? - the sky is really green?... I thought it was blue - at least that's what I call it?
What "full, multi-faceted use of the "V" device" have I ignored? Show me anywhere (other than CAP) where the "V" device is put on a military ribbon to denote anything other than Valor in general, and Combat Valor specifically?

Opinions are awesome, we all have them, enjoy yours, but just because you feel you've had some revelation about an injustice doesn't mean anyone else cares or agrees, nor does it mean that those who feel status quo is fine somehow just "don't get it".

You obviously care because you replied to the thread. Look, just because the CAP powers that be say something, doesn't mean it can't be improved upon later. We improve upon things every day in CAP - just look at our regs and manuals. They change daily. Hopefully for the better.

[Eclipse]

Its already been decided that it means "Vigilance".

[lordmonar]

just because the CAP powers that be say something, doesn't mean it can't be improved upon later. We improve upon things every day in CAP - just look at our regs and manuals. They change daily. Hopefully for the better.

Okay....you used the word "improved".

So let's do a little change managment.

First sell it to me.

Why should I as a CAP member with a DRR with V have to go out and buy a new ribbon with a new device?
What are the benifits to me and how do they compare to the cost?

[OldSalt]

"V" for vigilance is an appropriate device to denote service during a presidential declared disaster.

I recall that this has always been what it represented.  Anyone saying otherwise is simply misinformed and we need to
correct their understanding politely.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_hole

Kidding aside, the word "valor" is never used in connection with the DR-V within CAP parlance, so whatever conjecture is applied to its meaning is in the eyes of the beholder and should not be our concern.

Vote = Vigilance.

Again, show me the money here. I've shown I will apologize if I'm proven to be wrong in my facts.

Wait everyone - this just in - Eclipse and LordMonar have declared the "V" device to mean "Vigilance". Now we can all rest in peace.

How about, "V" for "Valor" like it was orginally designed to mean? Come on, you can't seriously be arguing that using the "V" device on the SMV is less appropriate than using it on the DRR? At least give me that much.

If anyone can shed light on the actual deliberations that resulted in the adoption of the "V" device for the DRR that would probably go a long way. I think it's a pretty fair guess looking at the evidence from latest version of CAPR 39-3 that the original device was the same bronze "V" device used by the military and that it was added to make the connection to between regular disaster service and valorous service. It was changed recently to silver in the regs because it obviously was causing some grief somewhere and needed further clarification - otherwise, why change it?

Any CAP Historians here want to chime in?

[Eclipse]

Ignore.

Continue the attack of windmills...

[OldSalt]

just because the CAP powers that be say something, doesn't mean it can't be improved upon later. We improve upon things every day in CAP - just look at our regs and manuals. They change daily. Hopefully for the better.

Okay....you used the word "improved".

So let's do a little change managment.

First sell it to me.

Why should I as a CAP member with a DRR with V have to go out and buy a new ribbon with a new device?
What are the benifits to me and how do they compare to the cost?

First, you would only need to buy the other device, not the ribbon as well. Second, the obvious benefit is two fold. First, you won't be having to "educate" others that "V" doesn't mean Valor - it means Vigilance. Secondly, you would sleep easy at night knowing that some veteran out there won't confuse your honorable service for combat valor.

You probably haven't heard any veterans complaining because when they see you wearing the "V" device in AF uniform they are assuming that you legitimately earned a medal for combat valor. The question you would probably get instead is nothing because out of respect, they wouldn't want to bother you for war stories or your combat experiences. They would just take it at face value. However, once they found out that your "V" device doesn't have anything to do with Valor or combat, they would not be happy they were intellectually duped, and would think less of your achievement the next time they saw it or anyone else in CAP uniform.

Why not just have the ribbon convey what it is universally accepted to convey in the greater military community? Why the resistance to common sense here?

[Eclipse]

First, you would only need to buy the other device, not the ribbon as well. Second, the obvious benefit is two fold. First, you won't be having to "educate" others that "V" doesn't mean Valor - it means Vigilance. Secondly, you would sleep easy at night knowing that some veteran out there won't confuse your honorable service for combat valor.

Apparently you have never seen what a ribbon looks like when you remove a device and try and replace it with another one that has different prongs.

No one but you is losing sleep over this.

[OldSalt]

Ignore.

Continue the attack of windmills...

I liked your original response. Vanguard doesn't sell bronze "V" devices? Thanks for seeing the light on that one before embarrasing yourself.

[OldSalt]

First, you would only need to buy the other device, not the ribbon as well. Second, the obvious benefit is two fold. First, you won't be having to "educate" others that "V" doesn't mean Valor - it means Vigilance. Secondly, you would sleep easy at night knowing that some veteran out there won't confuse your honorable service for combat valor.

Apparently you have never seen what a ribbon looks like when you remove a device and try and replace it with another one that has different prongs.

No one but you is losing sleep over this.

AAA still firing, but I'm still flying. Show me some facts, not opinions or hearesay.

[Eclipse]

Ignore.

Continue the attack of windmills...

I liked your original response. Vanguard doesn't sell bronze "V" devices? Thanks for seeing the light on that one before embarrasing yourself.

Nice try - up until very recently they did not sell a bronze V, and this was a topic of conversation on this board, you'd know that if you weren't a NEWBONTHELOOSE.

Just let it go.

[Eclipse]

First, you would only need to buy the other device, not the ribbon as well. Second, the obvious benefit is two fold. First, you won't be having to "educate" others that "V" doesn't mean Valor - it means Vigilance. Secondly, you would sleep easy at night knowing that some veteran out there won't confuse your honorable service for combat valor.

Apparently you have never seen what a ribbon looks like when you remove a device and try and replace it with another one that has different prongs.

No one but you is losing sleep over this.

AAA still firing, but I'm still flying. Show me some facts, not opinions or hearesay.

OK, seriously?  You're just making this up out of whole cloth and we're supposed to show you "facts"?

Cite a single personal experience, encounter, or any situation where anyone in another service cared for a second about our decorations, or specifically the "V".

Your ill-informed mailman doesn't count.  There are people all over the place who don't even know what CAP is or what we do, and get their shorts bunched the minute they think civilians are playing in their sandbox.  That doesn't mean we change because they are ill-informed, it means we inform them and move on, regardless of their personal opinion.

[lordmonar]

How about, "V" for "Valor" like it was orginally designed to mean?

Designed by who?

Come on, you can't seriously be arguing that using the "V" device on the SMV is less appropriate than using it on the DRR? At least give me that much.

Not talking about the SMV at all.  We are only talking about the DRR....stay on target.

[vento]

I think the whole this is really moot. Last time I checked we all voluntarily joined the organization for what the organization do for the community, I know I did. I didn't join to wear the uniforms. However, when required I wear the uniforms in accordance with the current regulations that I voluntarily subscribed to.

IMHO, CapTalk is a great resource to ask for clarifications and gain knowledge thru the experience of other members. If a member dislike or has a problem for a regulation that he or she voluntarily abided to earlier, then he or she should really take it to the attention of whomever can help the issue thru proper channels. I am afraid CapTalk is not such channel. Why burn calories and kill brain cells here while he or she can't accomplish anything?

My two cents...

OATH OF MEMBERSHIP
I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that:
I understand membership in the Civil Air Patrol is a privilege, not a right, and that membership is on a year-to-year basis
subject to recurring renewal by CAP. I further understand failure to meet membership eligibility criteria will result in
automatic termination at any time.
I voluntarily subscribe to the objectives and purposes of the Civil Air Patrol and agree to be guided by CAP Core Values,
Ethics Policies, Constitution & Bylaws, Regulations and all applicable Federal, State, and Local Laws.
I understand only the Civil Air Patrol corporate officers are authorized to obligate funds, equipment, or services.
I understand the Civil Air Patrol is not liable for loss or damage to my personal property when operated for or by the Civil
Air Patrol. I further understand that safety is critical for the protection of all members and protection of CAP resources. I
will at all times follow safe practices and take an active role in safety for myself and others.
I agree to abide by the decisions of those in authority of the Civil Air Patrol.
I certify that all information on this application is presently correct and any false statement may be cause to deny
membership. I understand I am obligated to notify the Civil Air Patrol if there are any changes pertaining to the
information on the front of this form and further understand that failure to report such changes may be grounds for
membership termination.
I fully understand that this Oath of Membership is an integral part of this application for senior membership in the Civil Air
Patrol and that my signature on the form constitutes evidence of that understanding and agreement to comply with all
contents of this Oath of Membership.

[lordmonar]

First, you would only need to buy the other device, not the ribbon as well.

Nope.....leaves a nasty V shaped hole on my ribbon...(I use glue to attach my devices).

Second, the obvious benefit is two fold. First, you won't be having to "educate" others that "V" doesn't mean Valor - it means Vigilance.

Not a problem...I like talking about my ribbons...and love the opportunity to educate anyone about CAP.

Secondly, you would sleep easy at night knowing that some veteran out there won't confuse your honorable service for combat valor.

I am a veteran and I have not problems with it....I know many, many veterans who know about the "V" and they don't have a probelm with it......and when it comes down to it....I don't really care what they think.

You probably haven't heard any veterans complaining because when they see you wearing the "V" device in AF uniform they are assuming that you legitimately earned a medal for combat valor. The question you would probably get instead is nothing because out of respect, they wouldn't want to bother you for war stories or your combat experiences. They would just take it at face value. However, once they found out that your "V" device doesn't have anything to do with Valor or combat, they would not be happy they were intellectually duped, and would think less of your achievement the next time they saw it or anyone else in CAP uniform.

So you talk yourself into a circle.  Veterans assume it is for combat....and then they think that I (or CAP) duped them?  I can't worry about what some schmuck assumes with little or not information.

If we go by your logic we need to dump all of the military uniforms all together...because we don't want them to think we duped them into thinking we are "real" USAF officers either.

So.....zero benefit and the CAP member must bear the cost of the change over.

Why not just have the ribbon convey what it is universally accepted to convey in the greater military community? Why the resistance to common sense here?

Because it already does.  The resistance is that you wish to force change where none is needed.

[lordmonar]

AAA still firing, but I'm still flying. Show me some facts, not opinions or hearesay.

I would say the same to you.  So far this is all your opinion...that the Silver V is not appropriate for the DDR with V.  Where are your facts?

[SarDragon]

OK, time to do movie quotes.

This one's from Meatballs. C'mon you you know this one!

"It just doesn't matter!"


Everyone, say it along with me.

"It just doesn't matter!"

"It just doesn't matter!"

"It just doesn't matter!"

"It just doesn't matter!"

"It just doesn't matter!"

[lordmonar]

"I can't get the shot, breaking left!"

[OldSalt]

I would say the same to you.  So far this is all your opinion...that the Silver V is not appropriate for the DDR with V.  Where are your facts?

OK, you win. The upstart has sucessfully been beaten down again. I guess the only "opinion" that really matters is the person who makes the regs official.

It doesn't matter that we represent the U.S. Air Force (fine print - only when on an AFAM) and that it may offend some veterans to wear a "V" device that doesn't mean Valor. It doesn't matter that CAP can take proactive action if it chooses to, but chooses to perpetuate something that could be done better. I concede defeat.....this time!  :clap: