Change the "V" device

[OldSalt]

The "V" device on the Disaster Relief Ribbon discredits CAP's AF military heritage. Here's the argument in a nutshell - When I wear the AF Style uniform and I am on an AF (or other U.S. military base) and I wear my Disaster Relief Ribbon with "V" device - the AF personnel who see me wearing it will automatically think "V" for Valor in combat - not "V" for Presidential Civilian Emergency Services.

The use of any "V" device on a military type ribbon here in the U.S. carries with it a responsibility to use it appropriately. There are many other ribbon devices that can take the place of the "V" device on CAP ribbons that won't subject us to potential "military wannabe status" in the eyes of our AF compatriots.

I'd like to suggest changing the "V" device to just enclosing the ribbon within a gold frame like the Presidential Unit Citation or in the case of AF ribbons - the below:

Air Force Expeditionary Service Ribbon Air Force Expeditionary Ribbon with and without gold border Any Thoughts?

[Eclipse]

Thoughts?

[Pingree1492]

Seriously??  Again??  Wish I had a good 'beating the dead horse' icon.

If you want to move us away from "military wannabe status" in your words, then don't suggest using the gold border.  You're just trading one "wannabe" device for another.


EDIT- thanks Eclipse... though I don't recall that scene in Office Space- did you replace the printer with a horse yourself??

[SarDragon]

Seriously??  Again??  Wish I had a good 'beating the dead horse' icon.

Like this?     

[Eclipse]

EDIT- thanks Eclipse... though I don't recall that scene in Office Space- did you replace the printer with a horse yourself??

Not mine, but brilliant none the less...

[a2capt]

I can't imagine this all not being thought out when they initially authorized the device in the first place.

Sigh...

In other words, it is what it is, wear it and be proud of it, or don't wear it. If someone asks, explain it to them.

[OldSalt]

I can't imagine this all not being thought out when they initially authorized the device in the first place.

Seriously? You are kidding here - right?

And, nothing here is a dead horse.  Here's a suggestion. If you don't have something constructive to say, then please don't bother replying. Just ignore these types of threads and we'll all be better off.

[SarDragon]

It appears to me that most of the respondents disagree with you. Continuing to force your opinion on us is nonproductive.

Get over it. If you think the "V" use on a CAP ribbon is so reprehensible, send it up the chain and see what the movers and shakers say. Just don't count on the folks on CT for a lot of support.

[Major Carrales]

Man, this is amazing... why change it to the gold frame...so some schmuck will have this same discussion entitled (only with a minor change) "Change the Gold Frame" stating that it is an insult to the USAF practice.  I'm awaiting those old weekly "WHY A US FLAG" threadsters to come out of hiding.

For the last time...the Silver "V" on the Ribbon is a CAP tradition, comparisons to the "bronze" military device is not a fair one.

But, if one wanted to go there...

For lack of a better source, and sense this thread keeps coming up as a weekly event...WIKI TIME!!!

The Valor device (also known as a combat distinguishing device, "V" device, and Combat V) is an award of the United States military which is a bronze attachment to certain medals to indicate that it was received for valor. The device serves as a clarification for medals that are awarded for both valor (bravery in the face of the enemy), and merit (an extraordinary job under noncombat conditions).

If you wanted to "go there" I would imagine that CAP deployment to a Presidentially declared emergency would constitute "an extraordinary job under noncombat conditions."

There...I feel dirty debating this issue.  Just wear your uniform as it is to be worn as per CAP TRADITIONS.

It is amazing how the same topics keep getting brought up here ad infinitem.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

While we're at it, someone should petition the National Board to allow the substitution of oak leaf clusters for the triangular clasps. They're much neater, and they're much less cumbersome when you have multiple awards, especially when you mix silver and bronze.

[Hawk200]

While we're at it, someone should petition the National Board to allow the substitution of oak leaf clusters for the triangular clasps. They're much neater, and they're much less cumbersome when you have multiple awards, especially when you mix silver and bronze.

+1

OLC's would be a lot easier, and more readily available. Not sure when they came around, but they're really unnecessary. They should go the way of the cartoon ribbons.

[SarDragon]

While we're at it, someone should petition the National Board to allow the substitution of oak leaf clusters for the triangular clasps. They're much neater, and they're much less cumbersome when you have multiple awards, especially when you mix silver and bronze.

+1

OLC's would be a lot easier, and more readily available. Not sure when they came around, but they're really unnecessary. They should go the way of the cartoon ribbons.

My source sez 1957.

[Major Carrales]

While we're at it, someone should petition the National Board to allow the substitution of oak leaf clusters for the triangular clasps. They're much neater, and they're much less cumbersome when you have multiple awards, especially when you mix silver and bronze.

+1

OLC's would be a lot easier, and more readily available. Not sure when they came around, but they're really unnecessary. They should go the way of the cartoon ribbons.

Hawk,

Entertain this notion a minute.  Remember that there is supposed to be a distinction between CAP awards and uniforms from those of military.  I have already visited the issue on onther forums that think we shouldn't even be allowed ribbons.   It seems very logical to have those devices, however, those are the distinctions of other services.  Unlike the "V," which finds its origin in another time (as well as approved my USAF measures for CAP use) and is only here-hence being discussed into being something that it is not.  The others would be changes from a CAP tradition to the tradition of another service.

The TRI-PROPS are also CAP traditional.  Mark my word, once oak leaves, or hour glasses or the like are added.  More posts such as this one will circulate creating unncessary ridicule.

That is why I must negate your comments and the proposal of Buckeye.  Let's leave it like it is, destinctive and free from unneed commentary.

[ColonelJack]

I have already visited the issue on onther forums that think we shouldn't even be allowed ribbons. 

Sparky ...

Who out there doesn't think CAP should have ribbons?  That's one I never heard ...

Jack

[Eclipse]

I can't imagine this all not being thought out when they initially authorized the device in the first place.

Seriously? You are kidding here - right?

And, nothing here is a dead horse.  Here's a suggestion. If you don't have something constructive to say, then please don't bother replying. Just ignore these types of threads and we'll all be better off.

Here's a better suggestion - use the SEARCH function and find there was already an active thread on this EXACT topic.

[Spike]

First post in a while on my part........BLAH!!!!!

Really?!?!?!??! 

If a person has problems wearing the device, they should just "NOT WEAR IT".  How simple can this get.  The AIR FORCE had to approve the device at one point, so legally it is allowed by CAPers to wear.

Point stated, counterpoint made.....Winner....SPIKE!!!

[arajca]

Not wearing the "V" on the DR ribbon changes the nature of the award. Due to the work involved in getting the plain DR ribbon (I had on as a cadet) I have more respect for that than the one with the "V", which you get for just being at a PDD in a CAP capacity (I've got a couple of those as well).

[OldSalt]

Not wearing the "V" on the DR ribbon changes the nature of the award. Due to the work involved in getting the plain DR ribbon (I had on as a cadet) I have more respect for that than the one with the "V", which you get for just being at a PDD in a CAP capacity (I've got a couple of those as well).

My point exactly - I'm not suggesting the change from the "V" device to a gold frame (or something else) just for kicks, and CAP tradition is important to maintain. However, whether we (CAP) likes it or not, wearing a "V" device on any military style ribbon (I know - CAP ribbons are not military...blah, blah, blah) is not to be taken lightly. How many times are we told that we cannot get away from the fact that when you are wearing the AF Style uniform you are representing the AF in no small way as an Auxiliary Member. I think it's obvious that the AF originally approved the change to the use of the silver "V" device for us rather than the original regulation language of the bronze "V" device by splitting hairs. The reason they changed it from bronze to silver - hmmm, what could be the reason here?

If you're not a military veteran then it's probably a little harder here to make the internal connection on this. This is not a slam, just ingrained training. When a veteran sees a "V" device they immediately think combat valor - nothing else. In the military there is no "other color" "V" device - just one, and it's only purpose is combat related.

On a more protocol level, the "V" device is never used for Service or Unit Awards - only Personal Decorations. The Disaster Relief Ribbon is a CAP Service Award.

The quote above from "Wikipedia" is not authoritative as to the awarding of the "V" device for other than combat valor or operations. Show me in an official reg of any service where someone received a "V" device for something noncombat related and I'll apologize for being incorrect.

If you think this doesn't matter - review the case of Navy Admiral Jeremy Boorda.

In short, my suggestion isn't a slam on CAP or CAP traditions to honor CAP members for exemplary service, it's more an action of let's find an appropriate way to recognize the nature of the award than to give the effect of usurping a cultural icon's original intent for something other than it was intended. Simply changing from a bronze color to a silver color doesn't do it in my book.

The use of colored devices doesn't denote a change in the nature of the award - it is used to denote a numerical amount of subsequent awards. So, thinking this through logically and within tradition, a silver "V" device would indicate multiple awards (5 or 10) of bronze "V" devices - not a different type of award.

[Eclipse]

If you think this doesn't matter - review the case of Navy Admiral Jeremy Boorda.

His tragic story is not remotely relevant to this conversation.

[lordmonar]

My point exactly - I'm not suggesting the change from the "V" device to a gold frame (or something else) just for kicks, and CAP tradition is important to maintain. However, whether we (CAP) likes it or not, wearing a "V" device on any military style ribbon (I know - CAP ribbons are not military...blah, blah, blah) is not to be taken lightly. How many times are we told that we cannot get away from the fact that when you are wearing the AF Style uniform you are representing the AF in no small way as an Auxiliary Member. I think it's obvious that the AF originally approved the change to the use of the silver "V" device for us rather than the original regulation language of the bronze "V" device by splitting hairs. The reason they changed it from bronze to silver - hmmm, what could be the reason here?

Okay.....you are arguing yourself into a circle.

First.....from a military perspective.....unless the "V" device is on a BSM, SM or some such medal......it does not mean that much in the military.  And for those with a V device on a "real medal" it is not always that big of a deal either.

I got two USAF Outstanding Unit Awards with Bronze V device......because 20 people out of a unit with over 1000 in it deployed into a "hot" combat zone.

No one in the USAF is going to get bent out of shape because our Disaster Response Medal has a V device.  If asked what you got the "V" for you say "because the disaster I responded to was a Presidential Declared Disaster Zone".  Same story with my AFOUA with V device....if you ask...I'll say it was for being an outstanding unit during armed conflict.  End of story.

Don't try to add controversy where non exists.

If you're not a military veteran then it's probably a little harder here to make the internal connection on this. This is not a slam, just ingrained training. When a veteran sees a "V" device they immediately think combat valor - nothing else. In the military there is no "other color" "V" device - just one, and it's only purpose is combat related.

Yes....so.  As a military veteran when I see a set of stars on someones collar I think of General.....not police chief...but I know the difference between the police and an AD uniform.  Granted most veterans cannot tell the difference between a CAP uniform and a USAF uniform...but it only takes about 5 minutes to educate them.

On a more protocol level, the "V" device is never used for Service or Unit Awards - only Personal Decorations. The Disaster Relief Ribbon is a CAP Service Award.

Absolutely false!

The quote above from "Wikipedia" is not authoritative as to the awarding of the "V" device for other than combat valor or operations. Show me in an official reg of any service where someone received a "V" device for something noncombat related and I'll apologize for being incorrect.

Well that is the danger of Wikipedia....here is the appropriate DOD regulation.

AP2.1.2.6.3.2. "V" Device. A bronze "V" device when the award of the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award is made to a unit for combat or direct combat support.

If you think this doesn't matter - review the case of Navy Admiral Jeremy Boorda.

Now you are really going off the deep end.  Be careful young padawan.  The Admiral Boorda issue is very dangerous ground.

In short, my suggestion isn't a slam on CAP or CAP traditions to honor CAP members for exemplary service, it's more an action of let's find an appropriate way to recognize the nature of the award than to give the effect of usurping a cultural icon's original intent for something other than it was intended. Simply changing from a bronze color to a silver color doesn't do it in my book.

It is a slam on CAP...because you are saying we don't deserve the recognition we have developed for ourselves.  It starts down a slipper slope.  Can't use purple on the Curry Ribbon because it looks too much like a Purple Heart and any veteran sees purple he immediately things war wounds.

It is impossible to have a military style uniform with out borrowing something from the military.  We needed s device to denote the difference between the Disaster Preparedness Training Ribbon and the Disaster Preparedness Service Ribbon.  They used a bronze "V"....because it was easy, available and cheap.