This uniform/saluting business really brings out the "diversity" our organization has devolved into over the last thirty years.

For those of us who have spent time in uniform in active service the concept of uniform wearing and saluting is not novel or dangerous or exciting or even rash.  It is simply normal.  A salute is just part of the environment.   The purpose, place and meaning is understood.  Some salute you and some you salute.  Simple.  An aspect of the environment which uniform wearing is a part of.  Nothing more, nothing less. 

However, for many (certainly not all) lacking that experience (especially for those harboring a deep seated sense of inadequacy and a poor self-image)  I can see how the idea of appearing in uniform and being expected to exhibit all the appropriate behaviors amongst others for whom this is natural would be a terrifying event.  One to be avoided at all cost, the mere suggestion to be stamped out and suppressed by any means necessary.

There are probably better arguments for the officers academy concept that Major K has described but this has got to be near the top.  With training and education comes confidence. 

All of this, of course, is contingent upon the assumption that you are capable of appearing in uniform in a manner that honors the CAP and USAF which it (and therefore you) represent.  The regs are quite clear on that.

Quote from: SarDragon on September 11, 2009, 09:24:00 AM

Quote from: Major Carrales on September 11, 2009, 02:17:55 AM

Quote from: SarDragon on September 11, 2009, 02:02:12 AM
Instead of "trolling for salutes", substitute the more accurate, and less offensive, "salute magnet". That certainly better represents my thoughts about the situation I described.

Short Field, would you agree?

Ah...enter the politically correct discussion.  Calling a cat a feline does not change what it truly is...a small quadruped that meows.   

I wasn't looking for PC, I was trying to more accurately describe the situation. "Trolling for salutes" implies behaviour by the person wearing the uniform. "Salute magnet" describes the almost Pavlovian behaviour of the recruits seeing the uniform. Very different, IMHO.

Yes, and I agree, well stated.

   I have been reading this debate between Major C and Shortfield and a few others and have decided that I have to ask a very important question that has not been asked yet..... If Short field believes it is wrong for an USAF AUX Officer to appear in uniform, would it also be wrong for an active duty or reserve AF or Army Officer to be uniform for that event? or does the idea of being wrong apply only to CAP officers? Why would there be a difference?

   If it is wrong for USAF AUX Officers to wear the uniform, why would it not be wrong for the parents of another graduate who are active duty or reserve military officers? What if a graduates father was a general officer?

   If it is wrong for us, as short field pointed out, then it should be wrong for everyone else....After all wouldn't they also be out "trolling for salutes" or be a "salute magnate"?

please weigh in...

Military officers are military officers. CAP is a paramilitary organization with very close ties to the Air Force, but the vast majority of us are still civilians at the end of the day. An AF officer attending their child's BMT graduation is still going to a 'military event', a CAP officer cannot say the same for it being a 'CAP event'.

Speaking from experience, when I graduated (air force) basic training, officers were everywhere. In attendance there was an active duty Maj. Gen, a reserve one star, several navy captains and commanders, air force group commanders (which are usually full birds) and many other lower ranking officers.  Yet none of this brass bothered any of the recruits I graduated with, you know why? Because I seen the reserve one star RUN to see his granddaughter after words. I saw navy captains hugging their children, grandchildren ext. In basic you are taught to respect the grade, salute the grade and move on. Saluting is a fact of life on a military instillation, and even off. I'm sure those that attended the national boards in San Antonio got saluted once or twice on the river walk, were after graduating the new airman go to spend time with their families. I'm also sure those new services members didn't even think twice about doing it; they just went about their day. Ladies and gentleman hopefully no one is trolling for salutes, because they're not saluting you, for they have no clue who YOU    are, they salute that bar, bars or oak leaf because its respect to the grade. I say wear the uniform and wear it proud, for you can be proud parents, who while walking to see your child after graduation may have to salute, but remember when you salute those young men and women your saluting America's finest!! (Proud active duty member and proud CAP officer)

  A military event is a CAP event. As a CAP officer, you are a USAF AUX officer.

  The Navy Sea Cadets are an example of a complete civilian / paramilitary organization, CAP is not, exactly the same way. CAP is governed to a very large degree  by the USAF and falls under the Air Force family. Hence we fall into the Air Force command structure: AETC and are operational thru 1st Air Force / AFNORTH. 

  Other organizations, like the Sea Cadets and the Army Cadets are not tied directly to a service branch. The Sea Cadets fall under the navy League, a civilian organization. The Army Cadets fall under something other than the US Army or any of its reserve or guard components. CAP is tied directly to the US Air Force. The Coast Guard Aux is something a little closer to us, but they try extremely hard to be non military.

  I got saluted a lot while in San Antonio for the National Boards by both lower ranking Air Force officers and enlisted personnel. But then again, I try and fit the image of an Air Force officer and wear the uniform to the same Air Force standard. However, I do not pass myself off as an Air Force officer, but rather as an USAF AUX officer. If anyone asked, I gave a short version of CAP and how it is tied to the USAF. But no one ever asked.

  It's not a big deal being saluted or having to salute. It comes with the uniform and the military nature of CAP, unless you choose to wear the white and greys or the polo shirt.

Quote from: DrJbdm on September 12, 2009, 02:32:19 AMThe Coast Guard Aux is something a little closer to us, but they try extremely hard to be non military.

The Coast Guard Auxiliary is even more Auxiliary than Civil Air Patrol.  My Tropical Blue uniform looks even more military than your service uniform... Even if I don't salute my flotilla commander, or get to put ENS in my sig block.  Like my CGUC?  Noticed you like to use USAF Auxiliary a lot, however misplaced that may be (Ask CAP-USAF.)... Your BDU tapes say CIVIL AIR PATROL.  Auxiliary ODU tapes say USCG AUXILIARY, and they match the uniform too.

Oh, and how 'bout this? On topic too: http://kb.cgaux.info/kb/?View=entry&EntryID=354

Quote from: MIKE on September 12, 2009, 03:09:48 AM

Quote from: DrJbdm on September 12, 2009, 02:32:19 AMThe Coast Guard Aux is something a little closer to us, but they try extremely hard to be non military.

The Coast Guard Auxiliary is even more Auxiliary than Civil Air Patrol.  My Tropical Blue uniform looks even more military than your service uniform... Even if I don't salute my flotilla commander, or get to put ENS in my sig block.  Like my CGUC?  Noticed you like to use USAF Auxiliary a lot, however misplaced that may be (Ask CAP-USAF.)... Your BDU tapes say CIVIL AIR PATROL.  Auxiliary ODU tapes say USCG AUXILIARY, and they match the uniform too.

Oh, and how 'bout this? On topic too: http://kb.cgaux.info/kb/?View=entry&EntryID=354

Strange you are talking about CAP in "Third Person."  Not one of "US" anymore...eh?

  I'm not debating that the CG Aux wears a uniform that is closer to the reg Coast Guard then CAP does to the Air Force. But, CG Aux does appear to go out of it's way to act less or even non military, I would say that CAP is more military as a whole then the CG Aux.

  The A on top of the rank looks silly, the whole concept of tying rank to positions in such a way that you can go up and down in rank in any given year based on elections is silly. But, it seems to work for them, I just think it's a little strange. But, they do what they do well, I can't rant on them too much. I wish we had the same closeness to the Air Force. But I don't want to do that by trying to be less military.

  As far as using Air Force Aux alot? yes, I have been so accused but we are still the Air Force Aux, perhaps in your area of the world you may get very few AFAMS but down here, thats all I fly. As a whole, CAP is still the USAF AUX, even if it seems that we want to confuse ourselves.

Quoteyou can go up and down in rank in any given year based on elections is silly.

which is why it doesn't work that way.  You wear the insignia for the highest office you have held. 

Quotetying rank to positions

You do realize that this is in reality how CAP works?  The only people that have any real authority in CAP have it because of the position they hold at any one particular time and it is irrelevant what their grade is.  A Wing Commander has a ton of authority because they are a Wing Commander, not because they are a Col.   

Quote from: DrJbdm on September 12, 2009, 01:29:18 AM
   I have been reading this debate between Major C and Shortfield and a few others and have decided that I have to ask a very important question that has not been asked yet..... If Short field believes it is wrong for an USAF AUX Officer to appear in uniform, would it also be wrong for an active duty or reserve AF or Army Officer to be uniform for that event? or does the idea of being wrong apply only to CAP officers? Why would there be a difference?

   If it is wrong for USAF AUX Officers to wear the uniform, why would it not be wrong for the parents of another graduate who are active duty or reserve military officers? What if a graduates father was a general officer?

   If it is wrong for us, as short field pointed out, then it should be wrong for everyone else....After all wouldn't they also be out "trolling for salutes" or be a "salute magnate"?

please weigh in...

Simple:  39-1 prescribes when you we can wear CAP uniforms.  We simply cannot invent other circumstances to justify uniform wear. RM officers and enlisted persons comply with different regulations tham we do.  So it's not wrong for them to certain things we shouldn't do.  The personal motives driving an individuals decision to wear their uniform are completely irrelevant.  Compliance with pertinent regulations and professional image rule the day.

So the remaining factor is whether a boot camp graduation is considered a social event.  Absent specific guidance I believe the matter sufficiently fuzzy as to permit wear if your commander agrees.  Make your decision and don't worry about the many opinions expressed here.  I'd wager there are differing opinions within the RM about off duty uniform wear.  Just like here, they are opinions.  Let the regs be your guide.

Quote from: Major Carrales on September 11, 2009, 01:55:58 AM
I am, as I have stated, going to make CAP visible whether I have to do it myself.  No one will ever know who we are if we are never seen.  It a new century, friends, and if we continue the low visibility that some of you recommend, we will die of bloodletting.

So, all of you who read this be it today or as an old thread long moved down the list.  Wear you uniform as often as possible where appropriate.  Seek the appropriate permission.  Squadron Commanders be vigilant yet LIBERAL with said permissions.  Let the people see us.  Members, wear your uniform correctly and smartly.

If all that is done, then the point of contention in this thread is moot.

As a Public Affairs Officer I completely agree we should market CAP at every opportunity.  Uniform wear is only a part of a useful PR program.  Go for it!  Wear your CAP uniform when permitted by the regs and represent us professionally. 

Otherwise there are a variety of non-uniform t-shirts, jackets, sweatshirts, and ball caps that can turn you into a walking billboard for CAP when uniform wear is not indicated by the regulations.   Visibility needs accomplished without breaking our own rules.

Quote from: DrJbdm on September 12, 2009, 01:29:18 AM
If Short field believes it is wrong for an USAF AUX Officer to appear in uniform, would it also be wrong for an active duty or reserve AF or Army Officer to be uniform for that event? or does the idea of being wrong apply only to CAP officers?

No where did I say anything about a USAF AUX Officer appearing in uniform.   My comments were about wearing a Officer's uniform to the event.   The wife and I have attended similar events (AFJROTC) for familiy members and did not wear our uniforms and for the same reasons. 

Quote from: wuzafuzz on September 12, 2009, 01:44:05 PM

Otherwise there are a variety of non-uniform t-shirts, jackets, sweatshirts, and ball caps that can turn you into a walking billboard for CAP when uniform wear is not indicated by the regulations.   Visibility needs accomplished without breaking our own rules.

Sorry, but in no way are "non-uniform t-shirts, jackets, sweatshirts, and ball caps" appropriate at an event like the graduation exercise motioned above.  C'mon, man, a tee shirt is basically "underwear."  As was mentioned before, if the Squadron Commander approved the wear of the activity, and was reasonable in doing so---after all the activity is a solemn one where both CAP and the activity would be honored.

Now, what I suspect some of you fear is wear of uniforms at truly inappropriate functions, such as those rallies, political meetings, Klan meetings, Communist gatherings and the like that are verboten in the regs.  I am not advocating daily wear of the uniform as if it were civilian garb...however, there are some here that would likely hide at a gas station because they don't want to be seen in uniform or somehow disappear if they have to stop for something prior to a meeting.

Uniforms provide an important organizational function, they demonstrate that the group is united in their purpose.  This is the same for Middle School Student wearing a polo and khakis, policemen/fire and EMS personnel.  When you are seen in CAP uniform to and from a meeting or at an commander's approved event, it is not a shameful thing (because I suspect that in the back of the minds of some here being in uniform is to look "inferior" since one is not a USAF officer)

We need to get over that fast.  Just wear the uniform properly, be proud to be in CAP and get the job done.

Well said Joe!!

For those of you who don't know Major Carrales, he is a walking advertisement for how a CAP officer should look in uniform and a credit to the service.

Well, to put an end to the questions, I entered a question using the e-Services knowledgebase to CAP-USAF Command. I'll let you know their answer once I get it.

Quote from: Prospector on September 14, 2009, 03:34:23 PM
Well, to put an end to the questions, I entered a question using the e-Services knowledgebase to CAP-USAF Command. I'll let you know their answer once I get it.

The KB is not run by the "CAP-USAF Command", the answers are provided by NHQ staffers, and generally just involve looking up the reg for you.

It is a good resource for things which are black and white, or are transitional, but in cases where the answer is subjective, or based on a command opinion, they can't be much help.

This is one of those cases, as the regulations are purposely vague.

Although I've received an answer every time I've submitted a question to the the knowledgebase, they've never posted anything in the online version.  FYI, it isn't CAP-USAF that answers those questions, it is CAP NHQ. 

And oh yeah, some people here don't believe the KB (or the NHQ people who answer the questions) can actually provide a definitive answer to anything (I'm not one of those folks).

Quote from: Major Carrales on September 12, 2009, 05:30:17 PM

Quote from: wuzafuzz on September 12, 2009, 01:44:05 PM

Otherwise there are a variety of non-uniform t-shirts, jackets, sweatshirts, and ball caps that can turn you into a walking billboard for CAP when uniform wear is not indicated by the regulations.   Visibility needs accomplished without breaking our own rules.

Sorry, but in no way are "non-uniform t-shirts, jackets, sweatshirts, and ball caps" appropriate at an event like the graduation exercise motioned above.  C'mon, man, a tee shirt is basically "underwear."  As was mentioned before, if the Squadron Commander approved the wear of the activity, and was reasonable in doing so---after all the activity is a solemn one where both CAP and the activity would be honored.

Careful with the assumptions there.  In San Diego they encourage family to buy company identifier t-shirts to wear at the graduation, both to show support and to allow the graduates to find their family faster.

You will also note I didn't limit my comments about advertising CAP to formal or semi-formal occasions.  There are many events where the novelty wear would fit in just fine.