Steve Fossett

[Eclipse]

What many don't realize too, is that there are still glaciers up there also.

Wow, glaciers? Cool! (Get it, cool?...like they are ice, so colder than the surrounding area?...heh) 

If you enable Google Earth's topo features and turn the globe's angle properly you can see how extreme the
terrain is as well.

[SARPilotNY]

I understand from the California Wing DO that there was a Radar track for Steve Fossett and it was given to Nevada Wing the second day of the search.  Looks like Nevada never sent anyone there and later 20 aircraft flew the grid without success.

[Flying Pig]

Why would Nevada send anyone?  Its in well inside California.

[AlphaSigOU]

Why would Nevada send anyone?  Its in well inside California.

Sounds like a 'what we have here is a failure to communicate'* problem. As I understood it, the mission base was in Nevada, but utilized both CAWG and NVWG assets. But now we know that Fossett met 'cumulogranitus' in some pretty rugged and wooded terrain which was difficult to fly around in, let alone spot.

* Cool Hand Luke

[SARPilotNY]

Why would Nevada send anyone?  Its in well inside California.

As I understand it, Nevada was in charge of California CAP resources as well as being the only CAP searching in California for the first two days.  The DO is saying that NVWG CAP had the radar track but ignored it and never passewd it on to CAWG.  They could have flown it long before CAWG was involved. 

[SARPilotNY]

Than again the DO says CAP flew the grid 20 or so times and never even saw  and reported a burn or debris.

[lordmonar]

I did not fly or do anything in the Fosset Search...but I have talked to several people who both worked the mission base and flew missions.  To say that the command structure for that search was screwed up is an understatment.

We had two wings that had communication/command issues, we had USAF aircraft, we had NV and CA state/county aircraft and we had a lot of 'volunteers" who were making it very hard to manage the search.

I am not pointing fingers at anyone....just saying that it was a very difficult search to manage.

As far as flying the ATC radar track.....that profile was flow....several times.  I even flew it as a training mission about six weeks after the search was called off.

[heliodoc]

OK iof it was screwed up

This is where the CAP Wings NEED to get on board an start establishing a CLEAR line of who's doing what

The finger pointing banter of CAP has already pointed out that everyone else is screwed up BUT them is getting REAL old.

Time for sand table exercises leading up to full scale and functional exercises involving ALL agencies.

CAP had better get it together between Wings and start sitting in with EVERYONE else in the SAR world

This forum completely assures me that CAP is indeed in need of a complete overhaul.  The 1940's sub chasing mentality has to be forgotten.  We are new days or is it DAZE??

COmm and Command issues?? Get it ironed out at the tabletop exercises, functionals,drills, get with the Sheriff and the EM's of the operational counties. 

From here in the Midwest and reading all this....... I have been in the area fighting fire.  IT IS difficult terrain for both ground and air ops.  Sure sounds like the CAP  AOBD couldn't get their own way with all the other air assets in the area...  Where was CAP in all the air ops briefs???  Did they think they were running the show entirely??  More reason, after all these posts, that it seems CAP needs to GET involved with others!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But like an earlier post is there a CAP mountain, ranger, ski patrol, SAR extraordinaire outfit out there??  Doubt it

Until CAP starts accepting training with others in different areas of operations.....ACCORDING TO ICS and NIMS type training and not just "internet" training, wea re doomed to work with ourselves and continue to chirp about OTHERS shortcomings rather than ourselves. What was the composition of the command structure??  I for one, if a member of my family was gone , lost, downed, would welcome all those air assets from ALL those other players..wazzza matter did not like all those others in the SAR sandbox??



How come other agencies aren't saying all this CAP tripe??

Sure looks like more training for CAP is in store. Just looking at that topo sure indicates to me everybody needs the training and that probably won't  guarantee saves.

Better hope the Fossett family isn't reading this ICS ignorant website...   CAP has ALOT to learn , Also!!!

[Flying Pig]

Why would Nevada send anyone?  Its in well inside California.

As I understand it, Nevada was in charge of California CAP resources as well as being the only CAP searching in California for the first two days.  The DO is saying that NVWG CAP had the radar track but ignored it and never passewd it on to CAWG.  They could have flown it long before CAWG was involved. 

Id have to check my dates, but I believe I was in Bishop the day after he went missing.  Might be wrong.  I never saw anyone from NV searching the Owens Valley.

[Cecil DP]

As stated in several posts, the area was searched several times whether or not the radar trackin was made available. Due to the severity of the crash and the terrain there were no discernible traces of the crash. Mr Fosset is the one who was flying an unfamiliar aircraft, without a flightplan, and without telling anyone where he was going or how long he's be gone.

[AlphaSigOU]

As stated in several posts, the area was searched several times whether or not the radar trackin was made available. Due to the severity of the crash and the terrain there were no discernible traces of the crash. Mr Fossett is the one who was flying an unfamiliar aircraft, without a flightplan, and without telling anyone where he was going or how long he'd be gone.

Give that man a Pabst Blue Ribbon! (Or other potent potable...) 

[Cecil DP]

If you're buying it Johnny Walker Blue. If I'm buying it's Sam or Guiness on tap.

[sardak]

Personally, I would like to know if the site showed up on any of the photos flagged by participants in the "internet search" group.  Anyone seen anything about that?

According to the searchers on Google Earth, none of the updated high-res imagery for the Google Earth or InternetSAR searches included the area where the plane was found.  This is being discussed in the Google Earth Community here:
Fossett Search Google Earth

This link goes to page 190 of the "search" where the first post regarding the find was made. The CAP and SAR bashing reaches a climax about page 225 and as of now the last page is 232, but everyone's probably in bed.  And people think CAPTalkers can drag out a discussion.

Mike

[wingnut55]

But the guys here who seem to know what happened with the command structure.
try this

CAP screwed up big time on this from the highest levels, still after one year we have not done a 'POST" mission assessment.

1. Who were the key players?
2. What did the Various civilian agency's think of CAP?
3. How did the Governor of Nevada authorize the expense of $650,000,000 for a personal friend?
4. How much information was withheld from California CAP or delayed?
5. Why do we have state CAP Fiefdoms?

[Pumbaa]

CAP screwed up big time on this from the highest levels...

And this is news because why?  And you wonder why many folks look at CAP as a joke?  Just look at some of the posts here!

[Flying Pig]

Im not really seeing how we "screwed up".  There were issues that needed to be dealt with at times, however, for a group of volunteers from all over the region to come together at a moments notice and do what we did I think was pretty amazing.

As far as the Nevada Gov spending money, thats not a CAP issue, nor should it be anything CAP needs to be concerned about.  Im sure there are people in NV state government who are aware of it.  I think you meant $650k, not $650 million right?

[flyerthom]

As stated in several posts, the area was searched several times whether or not the radar trackin was made available. Due to the severity of the crash and the terrain there were no discernible traces of the crash. Mr Fossett is the one who was flying an unfamiliar aircraft, without a flightplan, and without telling anyone where he was going or how long he'd be gone.

Give that man a Pabst Blue Ribbon! (Or other potent potable...) 

Pabst and potable are a contradiction in terms much like honest politician.

[bosshawk]

For those of you who are interested, there is collection of photos of the crash site posted on www.flickr.com.  About 100 pictures, which should give you a good feel for what was left of the aircraft and the terrain over which folks had to search.

[D242]

In light of comments further above, about the handling of the radar track:

As stated in several posts, the area was searched several times whether or not the radar trackin was made available. Due to the severity of the crash and the terrain there were no discernible traces of the crash. Mr Fosset is the one who was flying an unfamiliar aircraft, without a flightplan, and without telling anyone where he was going or how long he's be gone.

Am I interpreting this comment correctly?

Fossett is to blame, because if he'd filed a flight plan, that radar track would've been a factor in the search planning, but since he didn't file, the radar track was not considered. CAP is thus absolved of sin in not considering that radar track provacative enough to have searched the area more thoroughly than they did.

Is that what you're saying?

[Cecil DP]

In light of comments further above, about the handling of the radar track:

As stated in several posts, the area was searched several times whether or not the radar trackin was made available. Due to the severity of the crash and the terrain there were no discernible traces of the crash. Mr Fosset is the one who was flying an unfamiliar aircraft, without a flightplan, and without telling anyone where he was going or how long he's be gone.

Am I interpreting this comment correctly?

Fossett is to blame, because if he'd filed a flight plan, that radar track would've been a factor in the search planning, but since he didn't file, the radar track was not considered. CAP is thus absolved of sin in not considering that radar track provacative enough to have searched the area more thoroughly than they did.

Is that what you're saying?

What I'm saying is that Fosset was unfindable for all the above reasons. That if he had used common practices like filing a flight plan the wreck may have been found sooner. I'm also saying that he screwed up royally that day and that whatever mistakes were made didn't have any effect on his survival. The fact of the matter is that if Fossett hadn't been rich and famous the search would have lasted for a 3-4 days maximum. with no difference in the outcome.