"Corporate Uniform" Gone!!

[Pingree1492]

Wow.  There are a lot of folks on here that must have highly stressful lives, or just enjoy complaining.  There's been some constructive stuff posted in between a lot of pet rants by certain members.  Give it a break.

Now we're back to the white/grey (along with a hundred different definitions of grey pants), which means it looks like two different organizations, and the belief that people not meeting height/weight and grooming are second class members who don't deserve the respect and fellowship of sharing a very similar uniform with the rest of the team.

This whole mess could have been solved with some minimal alterations:

• Get rid of the white/grey combo
• Authorize neatly trimmed beards and conservative length hair, and
• Authorize blue epaulet sleeves with CAP emroidered in silver, or
• Authorize grey epaulet sleeves and the grey nameplate on the CSU

From where I sit tonight, I feel like CAP just took 5 giant leaps back in the member satisfaction department.  Quite a few of the folks I've talked to tonight have said the same thing.

I'll start out here saying that I've never liked the CPU- not the politics that got it approved in the first place, or the details  of the uniform.  I have wanted it gone since it first got approved.

What I did REALLY LIKE about the CPU was what was mentioned above- it looked enough like the USAF-style uniform that we all looked the same.  That's a good thing, especially with the cadets that are over height/weight and over 18.  The CPU allowed them to still wear a similar looking uniform (though I only know of one cadet that this actually applied to).

So, I completely agree with the above.  A better option here would have been to keep the basics of the CPU, but changed the parts that were more objectionable to the USAF- namely take away the USAF rank marks, and the USAF-style blue nameplates.  Use the same rank and nameplates that we use for everything else, but on the CPU.  That way, we all look similar, while still maintaining a difference between the USAF and Corporate uniforms.   I could hope that we could get something like this on the agenda for the NB meeting coming up.

As you can tell from earlier posts, I am angered by the lack of consideration the NEC had toward members like myself. I just renewed, I am considering asking for my money back. They can find someone else to fill my wing and region jobs.

I know this wasn't proposed out of a disregard for the members who wear this uniform, for whatever reason.  I do think that there was a better option for making the necessary changes however.  The core sentiment behind this proposal was to eliminate some of the many and varying uniform options that we have, which is very admirable, and something that the vast majority of the membership supports.  However, I think we do need to have a way to have a little bit more input on this type of change, because it is ultimately the membership (or at least some portion of it) who has to support the cost of the changes. 

All that said, I doubt this is the last that we have heard of the issue.  And, despite the mileage that the issue has received in this board, uniform issues comprised a very, very small portion of the time of the NEC.  I'm hoping that will be the case for the NB as well.

[AirAux]

You know, I could swear that I have seen our National Commander in the CSU in the past.  Does she meet the weight requirements for AF Blues or will we see her in Grey/Whites?  Also, we should enforce the weight/height standards on all of our highly visible leaders.  I see more violations with them than with the rank and file.

[heliodoc]

^^^^

Yes and leading by example in CAP has some major malfunctions

[Paper Pusher]

It is not the loss of a uniform. That has me considering leaving. It is the lack of real leadership at the national level. Why follow people who are running in circles and throwing away my money in the process. Many years ago I was a cadet that gained from the CAP cadet program. I came back to give back to that program what I got from it.
How can I continue to follow leadership that acts on a whim. I have spent large amounts of my own money to support my duty assignments because my budgets from the Wing and Region were zero or near zero. They can't even fund their own mandates but they can waste my cash.

[NCRblues]

^^
The current leadership is just trying to bring cap back into good standing after the past "leadership" fiasco

[heliodoc]

Stick around Paper Pusher

This is my 2nd time around CAP and was a cadet, also

This has turned into a pretty lackluster organization leadership wise in many areas the uniform, welll that is where everybody, including myself, seems to be ranting.  It is time for CAP just to give up the mil uniform.
Its time for them to lead up, man up and get a uniform to identify the CIVIL in CAP.  I am now thoroughly convinced.  The CAP's constant change in uniforms is a mockery and the NB meeting this winter just ought face up to it now and show some real leadership and NOT show up in any military uniform until they can make 1) a real decision and 2) Never write another 39-1 until EVERYTHING Uniform is settled once-n-for all.
DO NOT WASTE any more time until the leadership can demonstrate true leadership in decision making.  They apparently are so back and forth at NEC that I predict the NB meeting is not going to show much more productivity than the past regarding uniform issues

I, like many here have spent copious amounts of cash for this silliness that now I am in CAP just for the fun and flyin

But this is CAP and now its just for fun.....

[Paper Pusher]

I think I should step away from posting until I cool down. I appreciate everyones input. I think your cooler heads may have prevailed. I too understand the NEC's intent. They still should have asked for input from the membership instead of a newly appointed CAP- USAF member that hasn't learned hardly anything about CAP yet. Besides the AF pays for his uniform unlike us larger folk.

[RiverAux]

Those of us who think that this decision was the right one to make do need to acknowledge that this will make some people upset, and I do think that is not an unreasonable response.  And yes, we might lose a very small number of good people over this (but not enough to worry about in my book).     

However, those of you who will have wasted money on this uniform also need to acknowledge that reducing the number of CAP uniforms, especially those that are duplicative of each other like the CSU and gray/whites is a good decision for the organization as a whole even if you disagree with which uniform is getting dropped. 

[heliodoc]

Yep

I too am going to step away from this CAP uniform sensitive board of fun, frivolity, and triviality of all things CAP uniform wise in turn to watch something o the tube about wildland fire..

I KNOW there will be paragraphs written overnite for more fun and frivolity of the uniform decision makers at NEC.  Like I said before, it would sure be interesting to see all those NEC types lined up at the hotel bars afetr a long day of "making decisions."

[treefrog]

Trying to make a good moment out of bad does anyone know of a good seemstress that can convert the expensive fashion statement into a single breasted, replace braid and buttons? It might retain most of it's size?  But one thing for sure, could wear military decorations on it. Just trying to think pleasant thoughts. Tony's coat served to brand those no longer young enough to comply in H/W standards due to disability or health reasons that come with age as well as way too many who had served their country and had supporting paperwork and assorted scars  to prove it.  We will never have a CAP that suits all our pet interests buy this is a step.  We are here to serve anyway and pay well for that opportunity.

[NCRblues]

I think I should step away from posting until I cool down. I appreciate everyones input. I think your cooler heads may have prevailed. I too understand the NEC's intent. They still should have asked for input from the membership instead of a newly appointed CAP- USAF member that hasn't learned hardly anything about CAP yet. Besides the AF pays for his uniform unlike us larger folk.

Not trying to be rude, just pointing out, that the Cap-USAF you speak of is a commissioned officer who has to buy his own uniforms.

[Lt Oliv]

Let me just add my two cents here.

I am happy, and I'll tell you all why.

I never felt that the white/gray uniform made those who didn't meet standards feel like second class members.

....at least, until they introduced the corporate uniform.

If you are too large or too fuzzy, you can't wear the USAF style, I get that, that makes sense to me, and that is fine.

I wear facial hair for religious reasons. It is neat and well trimmed, and my haircut is within regs. But if I have to wear whites/grays because of it, fine.

Enter the corporate uniform. Must meet grooming standards but not weight standards? That's ridiculous.  The corporate uniform set three distinct classes of members.

1) Those who fully comply with AF weight and grooming standards
2) Those who comply with grooming standards but not weight standards
3) And the rest

The fact that someone wearing size 72 pants is saluted because he/she wears the corporate uniform while I am without because I happen to have a neatly trimmed goatee, that makes me feel like less of a member.

That makes me feel like a weight problem is not a barrier to full customs and courtesies but a religious observance is. And I didn't like it.

Let me also add that the Corporate uniform is hideous.

It doesn't look military. It looks like an airline pilot uniform. The only truly military element that the uniform had was the AF officer grade. And I've said this before, and I shall say it again. We are not AF Officers. Our grade has "CAP" above it so there is no confusion. We have no business wearing AF grade when we are CAP Officers.

That being said, let me say that I truly feel for those who purchased this uniform (especially those who purchased it in its entirety). This is a pretty expensive uniform! But it didn't help in making us more uniform. As a matter of fact, it made us less uniform. It divided our membership further.

I would have also supported them simply creating modified grooming standards for those in the corporate. Let's face it, a cropped goatee is different from a big Santa beard that goes down to your belly button. But then what would the CAP member with the Santa beard wear?

I think we should develop the white/gray uniform further. Why not add headgear? I'm sure we could standardize the pant color and style and get vanguard to sell a gray flight cap. But we have to have a uniform that is uniquely CAP, and one that anyone can wear. Otherwise, you are pushing certain people to the fringes. And we need all the quality members we can get, even if they have a bigger waistline or a little more fuzz than their AF counterparts.

[RickFranz]

I guess in order to "truly" be fair to all the senior members of this organization, we should then have ALL senior members wear the gray and whites.  That is the only option that takes in everyone and makes us uniformed. 

Of course we will have to ALL have to buy our grey slacks from one source and buy the blue jacets from one source.  Then for the first time we could say we have a uniform.

Grey pants - polo for flying
Grey pants - white shirt for working with Cadets
Grey pants - white shirt, blue jacket for dress
Grey pants - white shirt, blue jacket black bow tie for semi formal dress

No need to buy all those ribbons and minture medals, just think how much this would save our membership.

As we have learned that we are really only the USAF AUX when we are on USAF assigned missions then it would hold that we should only wear USAF type uniform when we are acting in that role.

[AlphaSigOU]

Farewell TPU - ahem - CSU, we hardly knew ye.

Oh well, I guess I just have to add three more silver 'piston rings' to the sleeves, cut off the epaulets and I got me a airline pilot costume for Halloween!  At least I can still wear AF-style. If they standardize - and it ain't hard to do, people; you can get Vanguard to stock a standardized color gray trouser/slack/skirt.

I've got a feeling that this decision may be rescinded once they get enough complaints and people leaving the organization in droves... I've got too much time and money invested in CAP to vote with my feet - and as it is with my current job here in Kwajalein, I can't actively participate in most of CAP's missions, except pay dues.

[SilverEagle2]

Hmm...torn here.

I would have liked to see the grey slacks gone.

Put the grey slides on the shirt and coat.
Put the grey nameplate on the shirt.
Put the metal AF nameplate on the coat.
Put the black sleeve braids on the coat/cap.
Let the fat and fuzzies wear it.

Bam...a combo that looks uniform to the AF combo's but is still distinct and is simple to switch to and from. Buy a white shirt and a coat (and maybe some bigger pants) if you get out of reg weight or grooming, and the change is quick.

That would simplify it tons and present a much better uniform presence.

I think the goal of the change is sound, but the result may be poor.

Mt 2 cents for what it is worth.

[wingnut55]

It does not matter what we want, it is a bunch of arm chair leaders who get to where they are at by way of the peter principle. Who in their right mind wants to deal with the enormous problems we have in CAP. It is like Congress. Lets just make thing up because we have so many things messed up.

Why is it the United States Coast Guard allows their Auxiliary members to be fat and in a Coast Guard Uniform. They save thousands of lives a year in the Coast Guard. Maybe we should just move over to the Coast Guard Leadership. That way we get rid of the entire CAP Corporation, all of the USAF Officers getting paid to be What is it they do ?. we could save the US Taxpayer millions by doing it and we could get back to the business of being a Search and rescue organization, Border protection, Drug control aerial platforms. These are all things the coast Guard does anyway.

[Lt Oliv]

It does not matter what we want, it is a bunch of arm chair leaders who get to where they are at by way of the peter principle. Who in their right mind wants to deal with the enormous problems we have in CAP. It is like Congress. Lets just make thing up because we have so many things messed up.

Why is it the United States Coast Guard allows their Auxiliary members to be fat and in a Coast Guard Uniform. They save thousands of lives a year in the Coast Guard. Maybe we should just move over to the Coast Guard Leadership. That way we get rid of the entire CAP Corporation, all of the USAF Officers getting paid to be What is it they do ?. we could save the US Taxpayer millions by doing it and we could get back to the business of being a Search and rescue organization, Border protection, Drug control aerial platforms. These are all things the coast Guard does anyway.

Yes, in some areas the USCG Aux does a whole lot. But in other areas (where the nearest body of water is a rather small lake) they are boat clubs with uniforms.

In some areas, CAP is actively engaged. In some others, they are a flying club, with uniforms.

Here's the problem. Take NYS for example. New York State does not need CAP to be a SAR organization. They just don't. In addition to having a National Guard, we have a state militia chomping at the bit for something to do. We volunteer firefighters and volunteer ambulance corps that fill in any other gap. There are more government agencies and non-profits with clear cut missions than CAP.

So don't delude yourself into thinking we are something we are not. The only thing CAP brings to the SAR community that your average volunteer fire department does not is aircraft.

IF you think that CAP is only SAR and border patrol (something I very strongly think we should not be doing anyway), then maybe you should reconsider your membership. There is more to CAP than those three things you mentioned and the grass is ALWAYS greener on the other side of the fence.

[RiverAux]

The only thing CAP brings to the SAR community that your average volunteer fire department does not is aircraft.

They may be able to find people in a burning house, but generally have no training in lost person SAR and are not equipped for it either.  Any lost person SAR training that they have is a bonus and not the norm.

[a2capt]

Start a new thread about the need for SAR organizations in each state ...

[Eclipse]

Hopefully NHQ will quickly issue a decisive and unambiguous memo with instructions.

Sadly the result of this will be:

1) Disgruntled members who did nothing more than try to look professional and spent a fair amount of money
only to see it wasted (though, frankly, if they are early-adopters and active enough, the stuff will likely be starting to look thread-worn, anyway).

2) Members who will not only continue to wear the uniform past the sundown (whatever that turns out to be), but also some who will likely buy one after the announcement because of poor communication in their chain.

3) A large (no pun in tended) percentage of the membership will simply hang up the CSU and unzip the dust bags on their service dress and start wearing it again, with no heat, or even comment on the issue.
That's better?

I have no issue with the whites, but they are not formal enough for ceremonial use at encampment graduations and similar events which include pomp and circumstance.  Sorry, folks, in every photo of you standing in a row with fellow members, including cadets, who are in their service coat, you look like an eighth grader who forgot it was picture day.

The blazer.

No.

First, the blazer's are not a replacement for the service dress, any more than the mess dress.  They are not the same garment, and do present a 2nd-class appearance for those who can't wear them. CAP awards all manner of jelly beans and bling to its members as the only "reward" for their incredible, sometimes tireless service, and then says "you can't wear them".  Nice.

Second, most members wearing blazers look like rolled dinosaur droppings on a hot day.  They grab something off the rack, or out of their closet, slap that pocket protector on it, and wear it over a short-sleeve shirt.  Sweet.  There needs to be a special place in purgatory for people wearing that pocket protector - at least have the commitment to put the insigina ON THE COAT.

We have only ourselves to blame (ourselves in the grand sense).  The implementation of a corporate-option, military-style uniform is something CAP needs to normalize the ranks and make us feel like one team, but as usual, it was handled incorrectly from the start, and done by the wrong person for the wrong reasons.

There were any number of ways a compromise could have been properly reached with the USAF, documented properly and implemented properly.

None of that was done.

Sundown of the CSU needs to be done at the same time as a full error-correction of 39-1, as well as a full-press, once and for all, "comply or you're out" attitude regarding the uniforms.

Its not fair to those of us who spend countless hours and dollars trying to follow the rules to change them on us and then look the other way when members don't comply.