Need opinion on form 5 check ride experience

[alpacapilot]

I am a new pilot (65 hours) and new to CAP.  After two proficiency flights I was recommended by my squadron commander for a form 5 check ride.  Conveniently we had a National Check Pilot Standardization Course scheduled in our wing and on the last day the check pilots would be available to give check rides.  My squadron commander recommended I take advantage of it since it would be funded.  I agreed and prepared as much as I could.

I was instructed to take the online exam, complete the aircraft questionnaire and bring the form 5 to the meet.  To complete the aircraft questionnaire I needed the POH and I didn't have access to one.  So I filled out what I could and left the rest to fill out when I got to the meet.  When I arrived my squadron commander happily helped me obtain the POH and I went to work.  About 15-20 minutes later I was being rushed to finish my questionnaire by the check pilot from another squadron because he was waiting on me.  I finished as quickly as I could and we started the oral.

Now I try to pay attention to instructions so help me out here if I missed something but on the form 5 instruction page it says to bring the following:

The applicant for a CAPF 5 check ride should bring the following materials for review by the check pilot:
1. Pilot Log Book(s) showing evidence of flight review or other required currency/endorsements.
2. FAA certificates and medical.
3. Proof of CAP membership.
4. Blank CAPF 5 (instruction page is optional).
5. Completed AC questionnaire(s) as required by CAPR 60-1.
6. Annual CAPF 5 online written exam results.

Notice on #4 it says "Blank CAPF 5".  Being generous I had decided to fill in what I knew how to fill in on the form 5 before I arrived.  So my check pilot begins by telling me that I should have two copies of the form 5 already filled out and asks me did I just decide to do this at the last minute (remember he has waited about 20 minutes for me to rush through my questionnaire).  I reply with a no and he then asks me sarcastically "and your commander recommended you for a form 5?".  I replied with a yes.  We obtain another blank form 5 and he fills it in for me complaining the whole time.

Now as we work through the form 5 we get to local procedures.  So he asks me what the TPA was for the airport is, which is an airport I'm not real familiar with (I drove 3 hours to get there that day).  I had prepared myself (so I thought) for this airport by looking up and printing the airport information from the FAA's airport directory.  This airport's TPA was not specified, only the airport elevation was given.  So I replied to the check pilot that "since the TPA was not specified in the airport directory" that I took the elevation and added 1000 feet.  So he replies with "you said exactly what I didn't want to hear" and went on to explain I should not use the elevation on the sectional, that I should use the airport directory information and pulls out AOPA's directory and shows me where there is a TPA specified which is not 1000 feet above the elevation.  So I showed him my print out and he looked at it like it was Greek saying "what is this?".  I explained that it was the "official" airport directory from FAA and in fact a fellow member sitting with us had the green FAA directory following along and confirmed that it's not specified.  The check pilot dismissed it and continued to explain that if I had flown the TPA I had concluded to that it would be an immediate failure of my check ride.

At this point I have pretty much decided that I'm not going to pass my check ride because it appears my check pilot is determined to fail me.  So I planned to just go through the motions and use it as a learning experience.  As it turns out the weather was below minimums and never cleared so we never got a chance to do the flying portion of the check ride. 

They plan to pair me up with this same check pilot in a few weeks to continue.  Now keep in mind I am a new pilot and a new CAP member so I have little room to complain so I have not mentioned any of this to my squadron commander.  And I probably won't unless I feel I get failed unfairly.

I'd like to use this as a learning experience so let me ask two questions.
1.  Should I have brought two form 5's already filled out?
2.  Should the FAA's directory be the gospel over AOPA's directory?

Thanks for your feedback!

[dbaran]

In regards to airport information, the FAA ones should be used.   A Jepp vs. FAA argument would be interesting - I have seen things wrong in NACO approach plates that were correct on the Jepps.   

AOPA's info is useful, but I would bet money that if you busted something important, the FAA would point to your failure to use the 'official' publications as not having familiarized yourself with the available information.

The two form 5's thing may be a wing/local thing.  I know that the check pilot needs a copy for his own records and to send up the chain, but I have always done the copying for him after the F5 is complete.

[bosshawk]

alpaca: unless I missed something, you should not have been anywhere a CAP airplane to take a Form 5 checkride.  You stated that you have 65 hours as a pilot: 60-1 requires that you have met the requirements of FAA 14 CFR 61.57(a)(1) to carry passengers in the class and category as the CAPF 5 aircraft prior to the flight check.  In most cases, this means a Private Pilots License.  Not too many folks these days have a PPL at 65 hours, but it certainly is possible. 

More info on your experience and level of license might go a long way toward answering your questions.

[Chief2009]

FAA 14 CFR 61.57(a)(1) to carry passengers in the class and category as the CAPF 5 aircraft prior to the flight check.

For those of us without the FARs handy, 61.57(a)(1) is : No person may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers or of an aircraft certificated for more than one pilot flight crewmember unless that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings within the preceding 90 days, and--
(i) The person acted as the sole manipulator of the flight controls; and
(ii) The required takeoffs and landings were performed in an aircraft of the same category, class, and type.

Not too many folks these days have a PPL at 65 hours

It took me 53 hours and that was longer than most of my classmates. I was trained an accredited  four year school with a flight degree.  It would probably take longer at a Part 61 FBO,  though.

dbaran's right, always use FAA data, you never know if there was something updated in the FAA one that didn't make it into the AOPA one.

DN

[alpacapilot]

I do have a PPL and got my ticket with 52 hours at the recommendation of my instructor at a local FBO.  I am not bragging because I know I need a lot more experience to become a proficient pilot.  Something I hope to gain by volunteering for CAP.  I'm just following the recommendations of my instructor and squadron commander.

bosshawk:  Not to be disrespectful but you've made me feel like I somehow need to apologize for my small level of success so far. 

It seems like there are two types of folks in any organization.  Those who encourage and mentor you and those you insist you're never good enough to make the team. 

Anyway, thanks for the feedback.

P.S. My theory about needing two copies of the Form 5 is that it was probably mentioned as part of the check pilot training but my squadron commander failed to mention it to me.  Just not sure why my check pilot made such a big deal to reprove me about it.

[CFI_Ed]

I'd like to use this as a learning experience so let me ask two questions.
1.  Should I have brought two form 5's already filled out?
2.  Should the FAA's directory be the gospel over AOPA's directory?

Thanks for your feedback!

1.  All that is required is spelled out on the Form 5 instruction page.  All that says is "4.  Blank CAPF 5 (instruction page is optional).".  The two copies is probabably a Wing requirement, someone should have mentioned it earlier to you.  I and the rest of the Check Pilots that are in OK Wing make a copy so we're not duplicating effort in marking the the blocks.
2.  The AOPA Directory is not regulatory and is for info only.  Check Pilots know that they are to have an AFD or similar FAA document on hand.

However, in your Check Pilot's defense (however weak it might be) I've had guys ask for a Form 5 at SAREXs who have not completed the written exam, also not completed the Aircraft Questionnaire, and then asked me if I had a blank Form 5. 

[sparks]

One big lesson in all of this is not to rush any check ride. Driving 3 hours and still needing time to review a POH for the questionnaire puts everyone behind the power curve. The check pilot probably didn't really want to do the ride after attending the NCPSC. I expect he was ready to head home. With all that baggage I have a hunch he was grouchy and you were tired.

In your defense the AFD is the legal document to have for airport details. I have never heard anyone failed on a check ride because they couldn't recite the Traffic Pattern Altitude. Of course everyone I've flown with knew what it was. Consistent failure to maintain a designated altitude within limits, + - 100 feet, is cause for failure.

I have had people present blank CAPF 5's and ones partially filled out. Either would be correct. I prefer a form with known items filled in so it is legible, Name, rank, even the pilot license number. Everything is verified by the check pilot whether it's hand written or inserted via computer. The completed task boxes must remain blank as well as the boxes for check pilot information, endorsement, and aircraft qualifications The fall back is to bring several blank CAPF 5's if the wing policy is unknown. Since you usually have to contact a check pilot before a check ride, meeting time & place,  verify his/her  preference on documentation.
Having 65 total hours isn't a disqualifying factor. The story goes that some pilots have hundreds of hour, unfortunately they're all the same. Pilot proficiency, currency and judgment are just as important as total hours.

[DG]

alpaca: unless I missed something, you should not have been anywhere a CAP airplane to take a Form 5 checkride.  You stated that you have 65 hours as a pilot: 60-1 requires that you have met the requirements of FAA 14 CFR 61.57(a)(1) to carry passengers in the class and category as the CAPF 5 aircraft prior to the flight check.  In most cases, this means a Private Pilots License.  Not too many folks these days have a PPL at 65 hours, but it certainly is possible.

You owe alpaca an apology.

The number of hours, above 40, depends on the ability of the student and the instructor.

[CASH172]

alpaca: unless I missed something, you should not have been anywhere a CAP airplane to take a Form 5 checkride.  You stated that you have 65 hours as a pilot: 60-1 requires that you have met the requirements of FAA 14 CFR 61.57(a)(1) to carry passengers in the class and category as the CAPF 5 aircraft prior to the flight check.  In most cases, this means a Private Pilots License.  Not too many folks these days have a PPL at 65 hours, but it certainly is possible. 

As a Commercial Pilot with only 170 hours, I could definitely understand that kind of response if I were asking the question, but not for 65 hours for a private.  I do know of some people that haven't even soloed at 65 hours, but there's no reason to think someone wouldn't have at least a private at that time. 

[Short Field]

When I was a Cadet, the Flight Instruction Program had been cut to 30 hrs - they deleted the funding for XC.  We were expected to (and did) pass the PPL flight exam during the 30th hour.  If we had 10 hrs of XC they would sign us off on our PPL.  Otherwise you had to get the 10 hrs of XC and take the flight exam again. 

At the airport I fly out of now, you need at least 10-15 minutes per flight to get to the practice area and the same coming home.  That can really add up over time.   

[JGremlin]

alpaca: unless I missed something, you should not have been anywhere a CAP airplane to take a Form 5 checkride.  You stated that you have 65 hours as a pilot: .

Well he did say that his squadron commander recommended he sit for the form 5. So I'd say that either you definitely missed something or you're being incredibly insulting to his squadron commander. And for the record, of the pilots that I know personally, most held a private certificate before the 65th hour went in their logbook. It's not all that unheard of.

[KyCAP]

Not too many folks these days have a PPL at 65 hours, but it certainly is possible. 

After my FAA DE checkride for ASEL I had 43.1 hours which included 45 min ferry to the FAA DE at Sportys after instruction in Ky and had changed through 3 CFI's.  It CAN be done.

[LittleIronPilot]

Not too many folks these days have a PPL at 65 hours, but it certainly is possible. 

After my FAA DE checkride for ASEL I had 43.1 hours which included 45 min ferry to the FAA DE at Sportys after instruction in Ky and had changed through 3 CFI's.  It CAN be done.

48 hours here AFTER my checkride! 

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

I think that Boss Hawk must be thinking about what we fly here in California.  We have no 172's, we fly 182's or 206's.  These are high performance airplanes, therefore according to 60-1,  you must have at least 100 hours flight experience to get a form 5 in one of those airplanes.  That is not 100 hours PIC, but merely 100 hours total flight experience.

However, if Alpacapilot is flying 172's then he has enough hours, since he has his Private Pilot license.

[es_g0d]

Alpacapilot: I assure you that your Form 5 experience thus far is not typical of most of CAP.  If it was, it would give me second thoughts about being a member of this organization.

A Form 5 should be like any checkride.  It should be professional and overall pleasant.  Typically you will place more stress on yourself than the examiner will (or generally, should).  While it is not an instructional sortie, you still should be learning.  Listen intently to the debrief given to you and take the advice given to heart.  The CFI in the right seat doesn't want you to fail, but must ensure that you can operate the aircraft safely.  The litmus test I use for "pass / fail" is, "would I let this person take my child for an airplane ride?"

I have only heard your side of the story, and can't speak for your check pilot.  Perhaps you simply didn't hit it off, or maybe he was having a bad day.  Or, just maybe, he's a rotten check pilot.  Or maybe he's an excellent check pilot who's just a little rough around the exterior.  Take it as a learning experience, ask pointed questions, but not in a threatening manner.  Maybe you came across to him as a know-it-all and he's trying to teach you something.  In truth, any of these possibilities is as likely as the next.

Remember that this is a volunteer organization.  You have the ability to remove yourself from an unpleasant situation.  If that means waiting several more months for another checkride to come available, weigh the situation and make an informed aeronautical decision.

Of all the checkrides I've taken, I can't say as I truly enjoyed ANY of them.  They're lousy.  In hindsight, many of them I SHOULD have enjoyed -- I was getting the unique opportunity to fly with a very senior pilot who could (and often did) teach me great new tricks.  I've done better on some checkrides than others, but I've learned on every one. 

Go out there, relax, and show the check pilot you know what you're doing.  And you'll be fine.

[Mustang]

Now as we work through the form 5 we get to local procedures.  So he asks me what the TPA was for the airport is, which is an airport I'm not real familiar with (I drove 3 hours to get there that day).  I had prepared myself (so I thought) for this airport by looking up and printing the airport information from the FAA's airport directory.  This airport's TPA was not specified, only the airport elevation was given.  So I replied to the check pilot that "since the TPA was not specified in the airport directory" that I took the elevation and added 1000 feet.  So he replies with "you said exactly what I didn't want to hear" and went on to explain I should not use the elevation on the sectional, that I should use the airport directory information and pulls out AOPA's directory and shows me where there is a TPA specified which is not 1000 feet above the elevation.  So I showed him my print out and he looked at it like it was Greek saying "what is this?".  I explained that it was the "official" airport directory from FAA and in fact a fellow member sitting with us had the green FAA directory following along and confirmed that it's not specified.  The check pilot dismissed it and continued to explain that if I had flown the TPA I had concluded to that it would be an immediate failure of my check ride.

I hate jackholes like this. A CFI should know better than this, and to browbeat a new pilot with flat-out wrong information is just bad behavior.  Unfortunately, people kiss the rears of check pilots in CAP because someday it could be THEIR flying privileges subject to the whims of said jackhole.

[heliodoc]

^^^^
Amen brother

I often refer to CAP flying program as:  PERSAF  Personal Air Force

Some CFI's treat it as such

As if CAP had standardization in checkrides....NOT!!  Some CFI's in CAP appear not even interested in giving Form5's unless it is somebody they know and some do not even address issues during proficiency to get people to Form 5

[BlueLakes1]

Not too many folks these days have a PPL at 65 hours, but it certainly is possible. 

After my FAA DE checkride for ASEL I had 43.1 hours which included 45 min ferry to the FAA DE at Sportys after instruction in Ky and had changed through 3 CFI's.  It CAN be done.

Darnit Russ, you beat me. 43.8 for mine. 

[alpacapilot]

Update on my checkride.  First of all I passed

Turns out I was paired up with a completely different fellow who was a very nice guy, the same age as me in fact. He really didn't go over the oral in detail except to ask me a few simple questions since I really already did that part.  Then he said he wasn't concerned about technique but rather that I'm not a danger to myself, my passengers or the airplane.  Other than that he wants to know I can fly the plane.  So we head out and do shorts, softs, no flap landings, slow flight, stalls, steep turns, etc.  Once we got back to the FBO he congratulated me, passed me on WMU, and then said "give me your email address so I can get some info to fill out your form 5 for you".     I had 4 typed copies filled out in my flight bag.  Boy was he impressed.

Go figure?

Now I can pass on my great experience to others who are interested in volunteering to serve in CAP.

[BrandonKea]

Update on my checkride.  First of all I passed

Turns out I was paired up with a completely different fellow who was a very nice guy, the same age as me in fact. He really didn't go over the oral in detail except to ask me a few simple questions since I really already did that part.  Then he said he wasn't concerned about technique but rather that I'm not a danger to myself, my passengers or the airplane.  Other than that he wants to know I can fly the plane.  So we head out and do shorts, softs, no flap landings, slow flight, stalls, steep turns, etc.  Once we got back to the FBO he congratulated me, passed me on WMU, and then said "give me your email address so I can get some info to fill out your form 5 for you".     I had 4 typed copies filled out in my flight bag.  Boy was he impressed.

Go figure?

Now I can pass on my great experience to others who are interested in volunteering to serve in CAP.

Congrats, glad it all finally worked out for you!

[Al Sayre]

Congratulations, that's the way it is supposed to work.

[Gunner C]

 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

Way to go!

[williambyron]

I am a new member to cap and completed my form 5 succesfully yesterday.Our chief check pilot kept me apprised of all the documentation and copies that were needed to be with me.And yes i still made additional copies just in case.I can sympathize with how daunting being a new member can be with not knowing who is who,new procedures,new terminology,fear of the unknow etc you do get a lost feeling.For anyone who has not had a capr-5 checkout think of it as no more the a biannual review with extra documentation.Ask specifically what is required and how many copies.Like anything else you must be proactive.