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Scanner Wings

Started by SAR-EMT1, January 26, 2007, 03:12:57 AM

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SAR-EMT1

This is something I'm working on an I was wondering why wings aren't issued for it. I mean we have presolo for cadets and solo for everybody so why cant we have a scanner wing?

- If its an aircrew position shouldn't there be wings? If not, get rid of the position. Just seeking some explanation from other aircrew types or current scanners.
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

flyguy06

What do presolo wings look like? I have never seen these.

TankerT

GROAN

Not this again.

For the most part, Scanner is an entry level position.  If you want to be a Mission Pilot, you need to first go through Scanner training.  If you want to be an Observer, you first need to be a Scanner.

Scanner isn't meant to be the end point.  It is a stepping stone.  Thus, the bauble is for the end goal.  (Either pilot or observer.)  Very few people stop at Scanner. 

Having wings there will encourage the people that are getting the training just for the wings to be less proficient in the skills needed to staff an aircraft during an actual mission.  (I know... that's not all folks... but... they are out there...)

-Presolo... well... that's even another story... which I won't bother with...


/Insert Snappy Comment Here

MIKE

I think we've covered this before.  People have suggested that something similar to solo wings, but I think that would look [happy] and would rather have aircrew wings, and not for just scanners... Something similar to the existing wings with an AC or something else distinctive in the center.  JMO.
Mike Johnston

TankerT

Quote from: flyguy06 on January 26, 2007, 03:53:56 AM
What do presolo wings look like? I have never seen these.

Like solo wings, but with nothing inside the triangle.

/Insert Snappy Comment Here

MIKE

Mike Johnston

SAR-EMT1

I am not in it just to wear wings. However I am a college student and do alot of work in EMS. I am short on time and even shorter on cash for an extra set of flights needed to qualify for the Observer rating.
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

O-Rex

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on January 26, 2007, 03:12:57 AM
- If its an aircrew position shouldn't there be wings? If not, get rid of the position. 

Um, okayyy....

This is probably a good time to walk away from the computer, take a five minute break, come back and re-read the above.


flyguy06

I have NEVER heard of nor have I ever seen pre-solo wings. How do you qualify for them?

flyguy06

OOOOPs, I just checked CAPR 35-6. This is new WOw. Is there actually a badge for this? CAP is really coddleing cadets. Whats next? A badge for taking one flight? Do not make cadets earn anything anymore? "Just give them a badge, they tried"

TankerT

Quote from: flyguy06 on January 26, 2007, 06:17:55 AM
OOOOPs, I just checked CAPR 35-6. This is new WOw. Is there actually a badge for this? CAP is really coddleing cadets. Whats next? A badge for taking one flight? Do not make cadets earn anything anymore? "Just give them a badge, they tried"

These wings ... for the most part... stemmed from a safety issue.  There seemed to be pressure on the folks running the National Flight Encampments/Academies to solo cadets... so they could earn their badge...  However, due to weather, lack of hours, etc... NHQ decided to introduce the pre-solo badge to give the cadets wings... supposedly aleviating some of the pressure involved... or something of the like.

You basically need to do a pre-solo flight (a flight where the cadet flies the CFI to determine that the cadet is ready to solo) and be labled as "ready to solo"  or whatnot.  This has to be done at the Wing level or higher... or a National Flight Academy.

Thus, you can't earn them at your squadron, etc.

/Insert Snappy Comment Here

Monty

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on January 26, 2007, 04:14:16 AM
I am not in it just to wear wings. However I am a college student and do alot of work in EMS. I am short on time and even shorter on cash for an extra set of flights needed to qualify for the Observer rating.

Welcome to the American condition.  You'll find similar points made by some people with the highest aptitude but no money to complete their BA/BS degrees as quickly as they'd like.

If you can't afford the flights (I had to wait a YEAR before I could) to finish your observer credentials, then wait 'em out.  Just like if folks who can't afford to complete college until their money circumstances permit them to finish...they have to wait also.

No sense in giving wings or BA/BS degrees out to scanners or frosh/sophomores (respectively) until the "end goal" properly reflects the blood, sweat, and tears.

:)

(Besides, nobody looks up or down to people in CAP with or without wings.  Cross my heart.)

flyguy06

Quote from: TankerT on January 26, 2007, 01:37:37 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 26, 2007, 06:17:55 AM
OOOOPs, I just checked CAPR 35-6. This is new WOw. Is there actually a badge for this? CAP is really coddleing cadets. Whats next? A badge for taking one flight? Do not make cadets earn anything anymore? "Just give them a badge, they tried"

These wings ... for the most part... stemmed from a safety issue.  There seemed to be pressure on the folks running the National Flight Encampments/Academies to solo cadets... so they could earn their badge...  However, due to weather, lack of hours, etc... NHQ decided to introduce the pre-solo badge to give the cadets wings... supposedly aleviating some of the pressure involved... or something of the like.

You basically need to do a pre-solo flight (a flight where the cadet flies the CFI to determine that the cadet is ready to solo) and be labled as "ready to solo"  or whatnot.  This has to be done at the Wing level or higher... or a National Flight Academy.

Thus, you can't earn them at your squadron, etc.

Thats my point. We are appeasing the cadets and saying basically "well, you didnt solo but here, wear these wings anyway" Giving them something tomake them feel good even thought they didnt solo.

flyguy06

Quote from: msmjr2003 on January 26, 2007, 02:05:42 PM
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on January 26, 2007, 04:14:16 AM
I am not in it just to wear wings. However I am a college student and do alot of work in EMS. I am short on time and even shorter on cash for an extra set of flights needed to qualify for the Observer rating.

Welcome to the American condition.  You'll find similar points made by some people with the highest aptitude but no money to complete their BA/BS degrees as quickly as they'd like.

If you can't afford the flights (I had to wait a YEAR before I could) to finish your observer credentials, then wait 'em out.  Just like if folks who can't afford to complete college until their money circumstances permit them to finish...they have to wait also.

No sense in giving wings or BA/BS degrees out to scanners or frosh/sophomores (respectively) until the "end goal" properly reflects the blood, sweat, and tears.

:)

(Besides, nobody looks up or down to people in CAP with or without wings.  Cross my heart.)

The same could be said for these pre-solo wings. Dont wear wings until the end goal is completed.

Major Carrales

I have often though ot Mission Scanner Wings.  My perspective is from what I labeled the WHOLE CAP APPROACH.

In this idea we should have a versitile ES program.  One where All Aircrew focus CAP officers have some "on the ground training" (i.e. UDF, Mission Radio Operator or the like) and all Ground Focused people should have a "foot on the plane."  (i.e. Misson Scanner, flightline marshaller or even all out OBSERVER)

According to that doctrine (designed to allow people to avoid down time at SARex et al by wedging into a slot out of their field of focus as needed) Mission Scanner would be the highest air crew position they might wish to obtain.  A badge representing that woudl indicate that this person is primarily a staff or ground person what could be used as a Mission Scanner.

Why not just have this member complete the training to Mission Observer?  Ah...a common rebutal to this idea.  It is basically for the same reason that a Mission Pilot might not want to get a Ground Team qual, its "no their bag."  A Mission Pilot should be UDF..for those times they land at some airport and have to "UDF it...,"  A UDF member might want to fly as A Scanner and then deplane to UDF.  It makes a degree of sense.

However, if a Ground Team member that joined for the Ground Team stuff, but still wants to be an asset to the Aviation section if it is required, Mission Scanner is the perfect role.

That is the only reason I would support a Mission Scanner badge...wings...et al.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

Monty

Quote from: flyguy06 on January 26, 2007, 04:24:15 PMThe same could be said for these pre-solo wings. Dont wear wings until the end goal is completed.

No arguments from me......

aveighter

Quote from: msmjr2003 on January 26, 2007, 02:05:42 PM

(Besides, nobody looks up or down to people in CAP with or without wings.  Cross my heart.)

Pilots know they are better than everyone else and also know everyone else secretly wants to be them.

(note to public school grads: the above is just a joke.  sort of)

Monty

Quote from: Major Carrales on January 26, 2007, 04:45:30 PM
I have often though ot Mission Scanner Wings.  My perspective is from what I labeled the WHOLE CAP APPROACH.

In this idea we should have a versitile ES program.  One where All Aircrew focus CAP officers have some "on the ground training" (i.e. UDF, Mission Radio Operator or the like) and all Ground Focused people should have a "foot on the plane."  (i.e. Misson Scanner, flightline marshaller or even all out OBSERVER)

According to that doctrine (designed to allow people to avoid down time at SARex et al by wedging into a slot out of their field of focus as needed) Mission Scanner would be the highest air crew position they might wish to obtain.  A badge representing that woudl indicate that this person is primarily a staff or ground person what could be used as a Mission Scanner.

Why not just have this member complete the training to Mission Observer?  Ah...a common rebutal to this idea.  It is basically for the same reason that a Mission Pilot might not want to get a Ground Team qual, its "no their bag."  A Mission Pilot should be UDF..for those times they land at some airport and have to "UDF it...,"  A UDF member might want to fly as A Scanner and then deplane to UDF.  It makes a degree of sense.

However, if a Ground Team member that joined for the Ground Team stuff, but still wants to be an asset to the Aviation section if it is required, Mission Scanner is the perfect role.

That is the only reason I would support a Mission Scanner badge...wings...et al.

I see your point - really I do - but I approach the matter from a different vantage.

First things first - given that a good number of Wings require a flight suit for nearly all flying, the flight suit would be *bling* enough to establish a person as an aircrew member.  I can't recall a soul who saw somebody in a flight suit and thought, "hmm...that guy is a janitor or I'll eat my hat."

Second - and this would directly affect ME - I would go so far as to either (a) take observer wings away from we observers or (b) go the "old school" method and give them half a wing.

Pilots full badge, Observers half badge (or no badge) and Scanners no badge.

No I'm not a pilot and have no "stick" experience; I'm an observer.  However, remember that same hypothetical guy that hasn't made a mistake about the janitor?  He WOULD make that mistake when seeing an observer and think, "hmm...looks like a pilot or I'll eat my hat."

I've seen references on here that indicate that folks would make life harder for whatever reasons, so long as it wouldn't include them (e.g., making grades harder to earn, etc.)  However, I WOULD include myself in this plan, which would strip me of half my observer wings or exclude them completely.

Scanners (and Observers)...wonderful people and wonderful volunteers!  So are >18 year-old cadets who don't have a set of Observer/CAP Pilot wings also...

I personally believe that there are PLENTY of folks in this good 'ole USA that do great things for their fellow man (and woman.)  When push came to shove, here's betting $1000 that when a plane goes down and an aircrew is about to take flight, part of the mission brief will NOT include "I as a Scanner (or Observer) refuse to accept a part of this flight until you let me wear wings.  Think I'm kidding?  I'll walk right now...to heck with the family laying on a mountain somewhere needing locating...yes wings or no ride."

SJFedor

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on January 26, 2007, 04:14:16 AM
I am not in it just to wear wings. However I am a college student and do alot of work in EMS. I am short on time and even shorter on cash for an extra set of flights needed to qualify for the Observer rating.

Your wing doesn't conduct SAR training at all? You shouldn't have to pay for your Mission Observer training, it should be done on an AFAM Training mission.

Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)

RiverAux

I don't see any reason to have Scanner Wings.  Then again I don't see any real need for any badges on the uniform of any kind in the first place.  Name, CAP, and Rank and that should be it on flight suits and BDUs.  Bling should only be on the dress-up uniforms.