CAP membership in military flying clubs

[flyguy06]

It is very much my squadron's problem when we depend uponthat member to teach a class or get paperwork in order.

Here is an example. We have such a member who is the personnel officer. Ok, we asked him to go over the various personnel files with us since most us dont know them. We put that on the trainign schedule for that night. He didnt show up. So not only did we not get good training on personel files. we had nothing to do for that evening. So, basically members sat around and told old war stories. What do you thik visitors to the suadron thought? They saw unorganization and members that really didnt have a clue as to what was going on.

Like I said before, if it were one or two members doing this you are right, it wouldnt matter, but we have a suadron of 20 seniors and 12 are not active. They are members and promist to show up and do things and then let us down week after week.

Thats how it effects me and my squadron.

[lordmonar]

It is very much my squadron's problem when we depend uponthat member to teach a class or get paperwork in order.

Here is an example. We have such a member who is the personnel officer. Ok, we asked him to go over the various personnel files with us since most us dont know them. We put that on the trainign schedule for that night. He didnt show up. So not only did we not get good training on personel files. we had nothing to do for that evening. So, basically members sat around and told old war stories. What do you thik visitors to the suadron thought? They saw unorganization and members that really didnt have a clue as to what was going on.

Like I said before, if it were one or two members doing this you are right, it wouldnt matter, but we have a suadron of 20 seniors and 12 are not active. They are members and promist to show up and do things and then let us down week after week.

Thats how it effects me and my squadron.

Sure...of course...I agree with you 100% anyone who steps up to take on a job and then does not follow through should be delt with accordingly.  These guys will find that they are no longer of the flight schedule, not on the ES call out list, no longer being considered for promotion.  But I am not going to go out of my way to change their membership status, or call the aeroclub and tell them how inactive they are in the squadron, or DMV.

We can only focus on internal processes and not worry about what the rest of the world is doing.

[RiverAux]

If the person joins CAP just to join the Aero Club, to the members of the Aero Club (i.e. the AF, retired AF -- in other words potentially useful CAP recruits), that person IS THE CAP.  Do we want some lunk just paying CAP dues to be the one representing us on base? 

[BillB]

It must be nice to have a Squadron with all staff positions having their work caught up so that when the Personnel officer doesn't show up to run a training class, nobody has anything to do but sit around. I'm glad your finance Officer doesn't need to write checks or give a finance report. Or the Admin officer is all caught up on paperwork. Or is it poor leadership that there is nobody in the Squadron that can explain their duries? Or that the Squadron is so correct on uniforms and C&C that they can't get a former cader to run a quick class. Or that the Commander can't run a brainstorming session to plan future activities for seniors and cadets. Sounds like a Squadron that doesn't have it's act together.

[flyguy06]

It is very much my squadron's problem when we depend uponthat member to teach a class or get paperwork in order.

Here is an example. We have such a member who is the personnel officer. Ok, we asked him to go over the various personnel files with us since most us dont know them. We put that on the trainign schedule for that night. He didnt show up. So not only did we not get good training on personel files. we had nothing to do for that evening. So, basically members sat around and told old war stories. What do you thik visitors to the suadron thought? They saw unorganization and members that really didnt have a clue as to what was going on.

Like I said before, if it were one or two members doing this you are right, it wouldnt matter, but we have a suadron of 20 seniors and 12 are not active. They are members and promist to show up and do things and then let us down week after week.

Thats how it effects me and my squadron.

Sure...of course...I agree with you 100% anyone who steps up to take on a job and then does not follow through should be delt with accordingly.  These guys will find that they are no longer of the flight schedule, not on the ES call out list, no longer being considered for promotion.  But I am not going to go out of my way to change their membership status, or call the aeroclub and tell them how inactive they are in the squadron, or DMV.

We can only focus on internal processes and not worry about what the rest of the world is doing.

Ok, but if they dont fly CAP inthe first place and dont give a rats butt about ES, then takning off a schedule doesnt really matter to them. They dont fly CAP airplanes anyway, so they dont care. They only joined CAP to join the flying club which they are very active in. So, I feel the flying club should be their carrot to take away. CAP means nothing to them. They arent involved.

[lordmonar]

Ok, but if they dont fly CAP inthe first place and dont give a rats butt about ES, then takning off a schedule doesnt really matter to them. They dont fly CAP airplanes anyway, so they dont care. They only joined CAP to join the flying club which they are very active in. So, I feel the flying club should be their carrot to take away. CAP means nothing to them. They arent involved.

Okay...I say again my first.  2b them if it means that much to you.  When/if they ever discover they have lost their aeroclub privilages and come back to you to renew....you explain what is expected of them.

Simple.

[flyguy06]

It must be nice to have a Squadron with all staff positions having their work caught up so that when the Personnel officer doesn't show up to run a training class, nobody has anything to do but sit around. I'm glad your finance Officer doesn't need to write checks or give a finance report. Or the Admin officer is all caught up on paperwork. Or is it poor leadership that there is nobody in the Squadron that can explain their duries? Or that the Squadron is so correct on uniforms and C&C that they can't get a former cader to run a quick class. Or that the Commander can't run a brainstorming session to plan future activities for seniors and cadets. Sounds like a Squadron that doesn't have it's act together.

First of all , we have no active cadets in my squadron. Its another long story. Secondly I wish the commander would have a brainstorming session. He is a 74 year old Vietnam pilot vet and his mind doesnt work that way. Wat Admin officer? Havent seen him at a meeting since June.

[afgeo4]

My advise is... talk to the management of the club and explain them the situation.  Insist that they check with CAP on the active status of members who are coming in to join.  Perhaps even ask for the club to request references?

Are you upset that they get to be members of the club or that they are in CAP? If it's the club membership... hey, clubs determine their own members. Why do you care? If it's them joining CAP and doing nothing... they pay dues that pay for our operations. If it's them being inactive and still on your rosters... I brought this up in the "active vs. inactive" thread. Either way, I bet the president of the club would appreciate you telling him that this issue exists and that these specific members aren't actually active.

[RiverAux]

Unlike generally inactive CAP members who just don't bother to show up, this situation is that there are inactive CAP members using their CAP status to join another organization.  I think it is perfectly appropriate for us to be a little bit tougher on them since they do raise the potentially of making CAP look bad to folks that are important to us. 

[Dragoon]

Ok, but if they dont fly CAP inthe first place and dont give a rats butt about ES, then takning off a schedule doesnt really matter to them. They dont fly CAP airplanes anyway, so they dont care. They only joined CAP to join the flying club which they are very active in. So, I feel the flying club should be their carrot to take away. CAP means nothing to them. They arent involved.

Okay...I say again my first.  2b them if it means that much to you.  When/if they ever discover they have lost their aeroclub privilages and come back to you to renew....you explain what is expected of them.

Simple.

And I say again:

You cannot 2B a senior for non-attendance. 



As for the flying club thing - these are government clubs.  They are kind enough to allow CAP members in, presumably because those members do some work (through CAP) for the government. 

If at some point somebody up high finds out that "being a CAP member means paying dues and doing nothing" we could see a move to not allow CAP members in.    Which would hurt our active members who do fit the generally held description of what a CAP is, and deserve the privilidge.

[lordmonar]

And I say again:

You cannot 2B a senior for non-attendance. 

(5) Habitual failure to perform duty

Can too.

[Dragoon]

And the guy will just point out all the members in the ghost squadron who do nothing, threaten to sue, and will be allowed to stay.

We must enforce our policies universally, or be open to charges of discrimination and favoritism. That's what killed the non-renewal process.

[lordmonar]

And the guy will just point out all the members in the ghost squadron who do nothing, threaten to sue, and will be allowed to stay.

We must enforce our policies universally, or be open to charges of discrimination and favoritism. That's what killed the non-renewal process.

Not in my squadron.  If wing wants to transfer him...that is there look out...and there adminstative headache.

What was wrong with the non-renewal process was that it was administrative action on part of the squadron/wing/group/national with out informing the individual.

If he was such a head ache in the first place that you did not want his services any more....why not just boot him.

I agree that we need to enforce our policies universally.....and personally I think this is a non issue.  I don't care if the guy joined CAP just to be eligible to join the base aeroclub or get access to the O-club or what ever.  If he does not show up at meetings...again I don't care.

But if this sort of member does bother you....and you have called and told him that you expect to see him at meetings and doing what ever assigned duty you have given him...and he fails to do so....you CAN and SHOULD 2b him.

So he threatens to sue.  Not my look out.  The wing has to approve the 2b and he has the option to go to the NB with his appeal.

If he is going to sue anyone it will be national not me.  And in his suit the burden of proof will be on him to show that he did in fact perform his assigned duties satisfactorily.

You originally said that we can't 2b him for non attendance...but we can...now you are saying that we can't 2b him for fear of a law suit.

[Dragoon]

No, you can't 2b him for non-attendance.

As you astutely point out, you can try 2b for "habitual failure to perform duty".

I think that action would fail.   Because you'd have to describe what his duty was that he failed at!  And it would be extremely easy to win on appeal, because of all the members nationwide whose duty is "pay dues"

Otherwise you could kick out anyone by assigning them more duties than they could handle, and then kicking them out when they fail.  It ain't gonna fly - because we have no minimum duty standard.

You're right - he won't sue you.  But dollars to donuts your action will fail.  Meaning - you can't 2b him for non-attendance.  You can try - and fail.

Has anyone every successfully used the "duty perfomance clause" to 2b someone. ... Anyone?  Anyone?  Bueller?

[lordmonar]

Well as they say....your milage may vary.

[flyguy06]

No, you can't 2b him for non-attendance.

As you astutely point out, you can try 2b for "habitual failure to perform duty".

I think that action would fail.   Because you'd have to describe what his duty was that he failed at!  And it would be extremely easy to win on appeal, because of all the members nationwide whose duty is "pay dues"

Otherwise you could kick out anyone by assigning them more duties than they could handle, and then kicking them out when they fail.  It ain't gonna fly - because we have no minimum duty standard.

You're right - he won't sue you.  But dollars to donuts your action will fail.  Meaning - you can't 2b him for non-attendance.  You can try - and fail.

Has anyone every successfully used the "duty perfomance clause" to 2b someone. ... Anyone?  Anyone?  Bueller?

Since hese guys dont really care about CAP.I doubt they would even go through the trouble of an appeal. CAP is just not that serious to them to spend that kind of time on.

[Dragoon]

Unless....it got them kicked out of the flying club!  Which is kinda the point.

[lordmonar]

And when they appeal....the commander can just show that they "habitually failed to perform duty" and that would be that.

Just because regulations are not enforced at other locations does not mean you automatically get a pass.

[Dragoon]

Still waiting to hear from anyone who's used that clause in an actual 2b case.  I think it's got no teeth.

[lordmonar]

Teeth or no teeth is about whether someone has the gumtion to stand up for the rules.
Legally speaking (and I am not a lawyer) I can't see how a ghost member could possible prove that he in fact was performing his assigned duties, if he was not showing up for meetings.  And just because other squadrons do not enforce this rule does not mean you can't either.  That would be like someone saying because California gives you a 10% lee way on the speed limit, then every state must do so.

Bottom line....if you really wanted to....you have the regulations to back you up.  Is it worth the effort?  No....as I said before...I don't care why they join or if they ever come back.  If they are over at the Aeroclub and making a bad name for CAP then I care and I would deal with it.  But othewise....ignore it.