CAP membership in military flying clubs

Started by flyguy06, December 30, 2006, 09:21:52 PM

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dmac

As a former squadron commander of a unit on an Air Force base, we had to monitor who we had that was allowed access to the installation. That is why we wouldn't just let someone join to get access to the Aero Club. In a post 9/11 world it was very difficult at times to have active members that weren't in the military(including myself) to have base access. After 9/11, we couldn't meet on base for about a month and a half. We had and still have to be careful who we allow access.

Darrell McMillan, Lt Col, CAP

T34 Flyer

Base access is a funcion of the relationship and profesionalism demonstrated. 

Here in California other units were kicked out of there quarters on 9/11.  The Navy base we are abourd was asking us for help.

Also, when the wing leason told the base CO that he could not give CAP members DOD decals, the CO said "I will run my base as I see fit".

Eclipse

Just some thoughts...

Other than stirring up the pot, and making us look bad, there's little value in trying to knock guys down from the aero club for non CAP-participation.

With that said, it might be time to review the requirements for their participation with the CC of that club, perhaps a waiting period, or active status w/CAP.  Not all CAP pilots are mission pilots, but transport is not unreasonable.

He may be paying NHQ dues, but that is no guarantee the unit's getting anything.

A member on your roster, in name only, might as well not be.  Kick him to your wing's inactive squadron, or the national reserve squadron,

Based on the comments on the attitude of the unit CC, it sounds like he doesn't care, so you're better off dropping it.  

I respect your service as well, but the "I spent a year in the sandbox" comments are going to get old around your unit after a while.


"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

Quote from: T34 Flyer on December 31, 2006, 08:24:14 AM
Base access is a funcion of the relationship and profesionalism demonstrated. 

Here in California other units were kicked out of there quarters on 9/11.  The Navy base we are abourd was asking us for help.

Also, when the wing leason told the base CO that he could not give CAP members DOD decals, the CO said "I will run my base as I see fit".

Why would the liason betelling the base they CAN'T give CAP guys decals, cheez, ours has been working the channels to make sure we keep ours!
(he rocks).

"That Others May Zoom"

sandman

Quote from: dmac on December 31, 2006, 08:14:46 AM
As a former squadron commander of a unit on an Air Force base, we had to monitor who we had that was allowed access to the installation. That is why we wouldn't just let someone join to get access to the Aero Club. In a post 9/11 world it was very difficult at times to have active members that weren't in the military(including myself) to have base access. After 9/11, we couldn't meet on base for about a month and a half. We had and still have to be careful who we allow access.

Darrell McMillan, Lt Col, CAP

Screening your potential members is extremely important. It protects you, your cadets, and CAP as a whole. As a commander, you can choose who joins your unit. You can also threaten current but non-participating members with a 2B (Why?). So, you've turned away a potential member who is ony attracted to the aero club, you may have been able to attract this person's interest in squadron participation later on down the road such as a O-ride pilot or mission pilot. Did the base commander ask you to screen out these people? Why the elitist attitude?
MAJ, US Army (Ret)
Major, Civil Air Patrol
Major, 163rd ATKW Support, Joint Medical Command

dmac

I agree that is the case but you have little to no control over someone you never see, and it's not too cool to get blindsided with something that happened that as a commander you are responsible.  We have a great relationship with the base and wish for that to continue. As long as the Navy doesn't have a problem with it in your case, that's cool.  It really depends on the installation. We along with our State Director who is ultimately responsible for our access, are just being extra cautious. We can't get decals on our base.

Darrell R. McMillan, Lt Col, CAP

T34 Flyer

I'll clarify.  CAP officers get officers decals.  The liason had hartburn over that. And don't get me wrong, we screen everybody well.  I can think of three that we rejected.

Also, like I said, don't expect aero club managers to help you keep people out.  They need everybody to join.

dmac

Not being elitist at all, I asked potiential members that had expressed interest in membership for that sole purpose and explained that I couldn't allow that to happen after a discussion with the State Director, and gave him an opportunity to help in other ways with his limited schedule and he expressed interest in helping so he joined but didn't do much. He eventually dropped out due to a lack of time and I believe he went off somewhere else to  I wouldn't 2b someone for that but would explain that with help from the person who is my replacement and an active duty Lt Col that we can't have someone with base access and not participating at all. They may be transferred to the reserve squadron and base access denied unless the State Director would allow the individual to have access. We never turned someone away just explained that we would like for them to assist in any way possible.

Eclipse

Quote from: sandman on December 30, 2006, 10:40:33 PM
Some monies go to the squadron, wing, and national. Think of it in this sense...the guy may not fully participate in person but he is donating to the cause with money.

Unless setup specifically as an additional cost to renewal, the unit's not getting anything.  His Wing might.

Quote from: sandman on December 30, 2006, 10:40:33 PM
Two. Medical professionals, MD, DO, DDS, etc. are offered the rank of captain initially anyway. Promotions continue on only time in service.

Not necessarily.  As discussed in another thread, it is based on Unit CC's recommendation that they are performing a service commensurate with advanced grade, and there is no guarantee you go directly to Captain.  Captain is the max going in, not the guarantee.

Promotion after the initial special appointment requires that the member complete professional development up to the next grade, not just time,
Come in as a Captain?  You must complete Level II & III + 3 years, echelon approval, and possibly a promotion board as well.
(That's in cases of non-military, which is the whole point here.)

Quote from: sandman on December 30, 2006, 10:40:33 PM
There is no DOPMA limitations on how many officers are allowed for a certain grade! Heck, I can be a Lt. Col. right now if I wanted (the pay is the same anyway), I just haven't put in the paperwork....and I have hardly done anything practically since CPPT. [/rant]

Only if you've completed Level IV, and are approved by the Unit, Group (if you have them) & Region Commander.

"That Others May Zoom"

sandman

Quote from: T34 Flyer on December 31, 2006, 08:36:05 AM
I'll clarify.  CAP officers get officers decals.  The liason had hartburn over that. And don't get me wrong, we screen everybody well.  I can think of three that we rejected.
When I was enlisted, I had officer stickers...neatist thing too...had a few buddies very confused ;D

As far as screening, I remember rejecting a couple...even had one guy impersonating an active duty Marine captain, in uniform! The guy got nervous when I asked to see his ID, you know, routine to process CAP paperwork. Excuse? "I left it at home, I'll just go get it". He got off the AFB before AF police arrived. Busted him later though...
MAJ, US Army (Ret)
Major, Civil Air Patrol
Major, 163rd ATKW Support, Joint Medical Command

Eclipse

Quote from: dmac on December 31, 2006, 08:42:47 AM
Not being elitist at all, I asked potiential members that had expressed interest in membership for that sole purpose and explained that I couldn't allow that to happen after a discussion with the State Director, and gave him an opportunity to help in other ways with his limited schedule and he expressed interest in helping so he joined but didn't do much. He eventually dropped out due to a lack of time and I believe he went off somewhere else to  I wouldn't 2b someone for that but would explain that with help from the person who is my replacement and an active duty Lt Col that we can't have someone with base access and not participating at all. They may be transferred to the reserve squadron and base access denied unless the State Director would allow the individual to have access. We never turned someone away just explained that we would like for them to assist in any way possible.

That I can 100% see - you have to have a need for the decal.  

The people who get them up here are people who have legit regular business there (i.e. Group HQ is there, I run an encampment there, etc.).

Every once in a while we'll get a new member hot to trot for the decal - let's face it, to those in the know, it's pretty cool, especially with the little blue bar.

But since anyone who needs it can get a day pass anyway, the list is kept
small and tight.  

And Lord help you if you do ANYTHING to make the LO or CAP look bad up there.  (his office is up there and the USN is REALLY good to us). We've worked too hard on culling the relationship to screw it up over a decal or something else trivial like that.

"That Others May Zoom"

sandman

Quote from: dmac on December 31, 2006, 08:42:47 AM
Not being elitist at all, I asked potiential members that had expressed interest in membership for that sole purpose and explained that I couldn't allow that to happen after a discussion with the State Director, and gave him an opportunity to help in other ways with his limited schedule and he expressed interest in helping so he joined but didn't do much. He eventually dropped out due to a lack of time and I believe he went off somewhere else to  I wouldn't 2b someone for that but would explain that with help from the person who is my replacement and an active duty Lt Col that we can't have someone with base access and not participating at all. They may be transferred to the reserve squadron and base access denied unless the State Director would allow the individual to have access. We never turned someone away just explained that we would like for them to assist in any way possible.

Sounds like it was handled correctly. If those up the food chain instruct you to screen out those candidates, then what can you do?
MAJ, US Army (Ret)
Major, Civil Air Patrol
Major, 163rd ATKW Support, Joint Medical Command

dmac

Would love to have a decal, the car I own now is the first one I have had without a decal, but that's no big deal. We have an entry authorization list for CAP members to get on base. I had a need but CAP at Offutt AFB didn't rate one. I didn't need a day pass, just showed my driver's license and my CAP ID card and got on pretty much anytime I needed to get on base.

Eclipse

Quote from: sandman on December 31, 2006, 08:48:53 AM
When I was enlisted, I had officer stickers...neatist thing too...had a few buddies very confused ;D

My CDS is also a civilian contractor, and spends a great deal of time on base - his sticker is black for a contractor, which causes all manner of looks when he shows up in blues.  They don't know quite what to make of him.

Our library ID cards don't help the matter, though generally with a courteous explanation he's on his way.


Quote from: sandman on December 31, 2006, 08:48:53 AM
As far as screening, I remember rejecting a couple...even had one guy impersonating an active duty Marine captain, in uniform! The guy got nervous when I asked to see his ID, you know, routine to process CAP paperwork. Excuse? "I left it at home, I'll just go get it". He got off the AFB before AF police arrived. Busted him later though...

WOW!

"That Others May Zoom"

T34 Flyer

Quote from: sandman on December 31, 2006, 08:48:53 AM
Quote from: T34 Flyer on December 31, 2006, 08:36:05 AM
I'll clarify.  CAP officers get officers decals.  The liason had hartburn over that. And don't get me wrong, we screen everybody well.  I can think of three that we rejected.
When I was enlisted, I had officer stickers...neatist thing too...had a few buddies very confused ;D

As far as screening, I remember rejecting a couple...even had one guy impersonating an active duty Marine captain, in uniform! The guy got nervous when I asked to see his ID, you know, routine to process CAP paperwork. Excuse? "I left it at home, I'll just go get it". He got off the AFB before AF police arrived. Busted him later though...

We have had impersonators as well.  Tracked them down and scraped there sticked off.  We think this helps our relationship with the skipper.

Also, the library card is the big head scratcher.  My mothers cousen was USAF/CAP he blames our HQ for the lack of a better or even a CAC card.

sandman

Quote from: dmac on December 31, 2006, 08:55:40 AM
Would love to have a decal, the car I own now is the first one I have had without a decal, but that's no big deal. We have an entry authorization list for CAP members to get on base. I had a need but CAP at Offutt AFB didn't rate one. I didn't need a day pass, just showed my driver's license and my CAP ID card and got on pretty much anytime I needed to get on base.
Same process at McChord AFB, Tacoma, WA.
MAJ, US Army (Ret)
Major, Civil Air Patrol
Major, 163rd ATKW Support, Joint Medical Command

sandman

Quote from: Eclipse on December 31, 2006, 08:44:04 AM
Quote from: sandman on December 30, 2006, 10:40:33 PM
Some monies go to the squadron, wing, and national. Think of it in this sense...the guy may not fully participate in person but he is donating to the cause with money.

Unless setup specifically as an additional cost to renewal, the unit's not getting anything.  His Wing might.

Still, no harm. Why worry?

Quote from: Eclipse on December 31, 2006, 08:44:04 AM
Quote from: sandman on December 30, 2006, 10:40:33 PM
Two. Medical professionals, MD, DO, DDS, etc. are offered the rank of captain initially anyway. Promotions continue on only time in service.

Not necessarily.  As discussed in another thread, it is based on Unit CC's recommendation that they are performing a service commensurate with advanced grade, and there is no guarantee you go directly to Captain.  Captain is the max going in, not the guarantee.

Promotion after the initial special appointment requires that the member complete professional development up to the next grade, not just time,
Come in as a Captain?  You must complete Level II & III + 3 years, echelon approval, and possibly a promotion board as well.
(That's in cases of non-military, which is the whole point here.)

What?
QuoteCAPR 35-5 21 AUGUST 2004 9
24. Training Requirements. Professional personnel must complete Level I and CPPT prior to appointment to CAP officer grade. Health Service personnel, legal officers, professional educators serving as aerospace education officers and financial professionals serving as finance officers are exempt from all other training requirements prescribed for promotion to additional grades. Completion of CAPP 221 is required for all chaplain promotions after initial appointment. Chaplains are exempt from all other training requirements prescribed for promotion to additional grades.

Quote from: Eclipse on December 31, 2006, 08:44:04 AM
Quote from: sandman on December 30, 2006, 10:40:33 PM
There is no DOPMA limitations on how many officers are allowed for a certain grade! Heck, I can be a Lt. Col. right now if I wanted (the pay is the same anyway), I just haven't put in the paperwork....and I have hardly done anything practically since CPPT. [/rant]

Only if you've completed Level IV, and are approved by the Unit, Group (if you have them) & Region Commander.


Review:
Quotec. Health Service Personnel. Upon successful completion of Level I and CPPT, unit commanders may initiate a CAPF 2 on health service personnel recommending appointment to an appropriate grade, as outlined below. The member's qualifications will be evaluated by the wing health service program officer, who will provide his or her comments and recommendations to the wing commander prior to approval. (Specific qualifications for medical personnel are outlined in CAPR 160-1.)
1) Second Lieutenant. Licensed practical or vocational nurse, paramedic, or other health technician.
2) First Lieutenant. Registered nurse, physician assistant or other health professional with a bachelors or masters degree as outlined in CAPR 160-1.
3) Captain. Licensed physician, dentist, or other health professional with an earned doctorate degree in a health care discipline.
4) Major. Licensed physician appointed a unit health service program officer in accordance with CAPR 160-1 who has served 1 year time-in-grade as a captain.

And...

Quote26. Promotions.
a. After initial appointment, professional personnel may be eligible for future promotions by satisfying the requirements outlined in paragraph 11, except:
1) Health service personnel and legal officers are exempt from senior member training requirements after Level I and CPPT. Legal officers, however, must complete the National Legal Officers' College prior to promotion to the grade of lieutenant colonel.
2) Professional educators serving as aerospace education officers and financial professional service as finance officers are exempt from senior member training requirements after Level I and CPPT for the purpose of promotion under the professional promotion category, but are encouraged to complete all available aerospace education or finance related training.
3) CAP chaplains must complete CAPP 221 for all promotions after initial appointment. CAPP 221A must be completed prior to promotion to the grade of lieutenant colonel. Additional related training is encouraged but not required for promotion.
4) After initial appointment, moral leadership officers must meet the regular senior member training and time-in-grade requirements to qualify for subsequent promotions.
5) Members may advance to the grades authorized in figure 6 (2Lt through major) as higher professional qualifications or experience are obtained (i.e., advanced degrees or years of continued professional experience) without reference to time-in-grade except the grade of major requires 1 year time-in-trade as a captain. Promotions to the grade of lieutenant colonel must meet the time-in-grade requirement.b. The promotion procedures outlined for senior members in paragraph 8 are applicable to professional personnel except that the wing health service program officer and wing legal officer will evaluate qualifications of their personnel (health service program officers and legal officers) prior to approval by the wing commander.

Granted, Wing or Region is not required to promote, the point is, why not?
MAJ, US Army (Ret)
Major, Civil Air Patrol
Major, 163rd ATKW Support, Joint Medical Command

JohnKachenmeister

Just a thought.  I'd be careful about using the 2B to get rid of "Dead weight."

I used to have some dead weights in the squadron I commanded.  Nice guys, but theu just wanted the uniform and the rank, and didn't want to do anything.  I couldn't count on them for missions, for meetings, to give classes, nothing.

But once in a while, rarely, when I REALLY needed help, I'd call these guys, and sometimes they came through.  It might be just to drive some cadets up to an activity, or help out at a project for a day, but once in a while, these slugs actually helped.

I can't give you any advice for bringling these guys along, since I don't know the specifics of the situation, but if you 2B them they're gone forever, and so is any chance to EVER use them for anything.
Another former CAP officer

lordmonar

Quote from: flyguy06 on December 31, 2006, 02:07:59 AM
Why do I care? Because I just spent a year in a freking dessert away from my family to earn the right to become part of a discounted flying club/. What did the lazy CAP guy do? Why should he enjoy the same priviledge as me? Exactly what has he done to earn that? I was always taught you get what you earn.

Oh I see....you are not lamenting about dead weight CAP members....but that you see your "military" privilages being sucked up by some non-deploying civilian!

Get over it and move on.

If you feel that stongly go to the services chief and have him change the rules.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

lordmonar

Quote from: dmac on December 31, 2006, 08:14:46 AM
As a former squadron commander of a unit on an Air Force base, we had to monitor who we had that was allowed access to the installation. That is why we wouldn't just let someone join to get access to the Aero Club. In a post 9/11 world it was very difficult at times to have active members that weren't in the military(including myself) to have base access. After 9/11, we couldn't meet on base for about a month and a half. We had and still have to be careful who we allow access.

Darrell McMillan, Lt Col, CAP

The Nellis Cadet Squadron meets on base and has no problem with not military members joining.  I know of no CAP members that have ever had a problem getting onto base to do CAP buisness.  Just because the squadron is on base does not mean you can or should limit who can join.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP