In my Squadron, we have a lot of pilots join but they join for the wrong reasons. There is a military flying club and in order to become a member you have to either be in the military, retired military, spouse of military, or CAP. The problem is they will join CAP to get a membership card and join the military flying club. We never see them at meetings or activities, yet they are always at the flying club flying the planes. Two guys have been in CAP since 1992 and only completed Level I training One is a Dentist and demanded we promote him to Captain because of his medical training. My commander, being a 74 year old man, vietnam era helicopter pilot who tries to be nice to everyone went ahead and approved his promotion to my dis satisfaction.
This is why I am opposed to the military flying club letting CAP members join. I dont really have a problem withthem joining but if they are not active and just using CAP they need to let go from the club.
This is how I look at it. The military flying club is a military benefit. Just like the PX, commissary, bowling alley. We (military folks) fought hard and have "earned" these benefits. We earned the right to fly at a discounted flying club. So, her ecomes this guy who, just because he paid dues in CAP now has the same benfits I have. Is this fair? I dont think it is. If he were active in CAP. then that would be cool. He has earned it if he participates in ES missions,or flies cadets around or teaches classes. But just because he paid some money and is in CAP why is he enjoying the same benefits I and thousands others have worked and sacrafised to earn?
Forgive me, I am venting because I just had to talk to this guy.
One should join CAP out of a desire for service, as well as to fly.
Think of it this way, when one comes to a unit they bring with them a skills set; be it pilot, ground, youth programs or you name it. Those that have alterior motives that do not involve being a WHOLE CAP officer, serving their community/Aif Force/Nation in CAP are not "part of the game plan."
Would a 2B be in order for a person who joins in name only for some other purpose? That is for the forum to converse.
Should we try to encourge this member to participate? Yes. Can we force them, most likely not. Do we have to have dead weight in the units?
As for Military Flying Clubs...I have nothing against them.
Those are nice words and very idealistic, but Idont think they are very realistic. People generally join organizations to see what they can get out of it. Is that the right attitude? No, Is it reality? Yes. I wish we could 2B these members, but the down side is that would drop our roster to about 4 people which is no good
More realistically, people are looking for a return on their investment. How they individually define that is up to them. For some it's helping a young person grow into a fine upstanding adult, others cheap flying time, yet others want the educational benefits (AFIADL and scholarships).
I have heard that some military personnel join CAP for cheap flying since the CAP rates are less than the military flying club rates and our aircraft are better.
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 30, 2006, 09:59:57 PM
Those are nice words and very idealistic, but I dont think they are very realistic. People generally join organizations to see what they can get out of it. Is that the right attitude? No, Is it reality? Yes. I wish we could 2B these members, but the down side is that would drop our roster to about 4 people which is no good
Idealism is that star we try to reach, never do...but are driven farther by it.
Yes, people join organizations for "what they can get out of it." I fully expect the pilots in our unit to get flying time. But, a unit has to be built and maintained. If people don't "do their part" then the unit will collapse as those that do burn out. I have seen this with my own eyes.
That everyone do their part, that is not unreasonable. Our three part mission is not to provide free flying time or activities for people to fill free time. Those that join must have that made clear to them from the start.
Quote from: arajca on December 30, 2006, 10:10:25 PM
More realistically, people are looking for a return on their investment. How they individually define that is up to them. For some it's helping a young person grow into a fine upstanding adult, others cheap flying time, yet others want the educational benefits (AFIADL and scholarships).
I have heard that some military personnel join CAP for cheap flying since the CAP rates are less than the military flying club rates and our aircraft are better.
Our three part mission is not to provide free flying time or activities for people to fill free time. Those that join must have that made clear to them from the start.
That having been said, there are those opportunities their, but there has to be a trade off. This began with a member's frustration in a person who joined CAP for the seemingly wrong reason.
There has to be a trade off, what you give should be proportional to what you get. If one gives nothing to the unit, why should we grin and allow an abuse of the system?
I would rather have them join CAP just to get access to the military flying club rather than join CAP and try to turn it into a flying club. At least this way we get some dues money out of them.
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 30, 2006, 09:21:52 PM
In my Squadron, we have a lot of pilots join but they join for the wrong reasons. There is a military flying club and in order to become a member you have to either be in the military, retired military, spouse of military, or CAP. The problem is they will join CAP to get a membership card and join the military flying club. We never see them at meetings or activities, yet they are always at the flying club flying the planes. Two guys have been in CAP since 1992 and only completed Level I training One is a Dentist and demanded we promote him to Captain because of his medical training. My commander, being a 74 year old man, vietnam era helicopter pilot who tries to be nice to everyone went ahead and approved his promotion to my dis satisfaction.
This is why I am opposed to the military flying club letting CAP members join. I dont really have a problem withthem joining but if they are not active and just using CAP they need to let go from the club.
This is how I look at it. The military flying club is a military benefit. Just like the PX, commissary, bowling alley. We (military folks) fought hard and have "earned" these benefits. We earned the right to fly at a discounted flying club. So, her ecomes this guy who, just because he paid dues in CAP now has the same benfits I have. Is this fair? I dont think it is. If he were active in CAP. then that would be cool. He has earned it if he participates in ES missions,or flies cadets around or teaches classes. But just because he paid some money and is in CAP why is he enjoying the same benefits I and thousands others have worked and sacrafised to earn?
Forgive me, I am venting because I just had to talk to this guy.
Okay, for one thing, just get over it. Why? Well, the doc, and other "dead weights" still pay dues. Some monies go to the squadron, wing, and national. Think of it in this sense...the guy may not fully participate in person but he is donating to the cause with money.
Two. Medical professionals, MD, DO, DDS, etc. are offered the rank of captain initially anyway. Promotions continue on only time in service. Why worry? There is no DOPMA limitations on how many officers are allowed for a certain grade! Heck, I can be a Lt. Col. right now if I wanted (the pay is the same anyway), I just haven't put in the paperwork....and I have hardly done anything practically since CPPT. [/rant]
Let it be. How does it effect you? Re-examine your priorities. I almost want to say you have way too much time on your hands and/or an addiction to CAP to let this bother you.
Quote from: Major Carrales on December 30, 2006, 10:17:22 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 30, 2006, 09:59:57 PM
Those are nice words and very idealistic, but I dont think they are very realistic. People generally join organizations to see what they can get out of it. Is that the right attitude? No, Is it reality? Yes. I wish we could 2B these members, but the down side is that would drop our roster to about 4 people which is no good
Idealism is that star we try to reach, never do...but are driven farther by it.
Yes, people join organizations for "what they can get out of it." I fully expect the pilots in our unit to get flying time. But, a unit has to be built and maintained. If people don't "do their part" then the unit will collapse as those that do burn out. I have seen this with my own eyes.
That everyone do their part, that is not unreasonable. Our three part mission is not to provide free flying time or activities for people to fill free time. Those that join must have that made clear to them from the start.
You're preaching to the choir. I agree with you that everyone should do their part. Its trying to impart that upon these senior members that is the challenge. If we were talking about one or two out of a squadron of 20, it wouldnt be such an issue but when youare talking about 3 or 4 out of a squadron of 12 it becomes an issue
Okay, for one thing, just get over it. Why? Well, the doc, and other "dead weights" still pay dues. Some monies go to the squadron, wing, and national. Think of it in this sense...the guy may not fully participate in person but he is donating to the cause with money.
Two. Medical professionals, MD, DO, DDS, etc. are offered the rank of captain initially anyway. Promotions continue on only time in service. Why worry? There is no DOPMA limitations on how many officers are allowed for a certain grade! Heck, I can be a Lt. Col. right now if I wanted (the pay is the same anyway), I just haven't put in the paperwork....and I have hardly done anything practically since CPPT. [/rant]
Let it be. How does it effect you? Re-examine your priorities. I almost want to say you have way too much time on your hands and/or an addiction to CAP to let this bother you.
[/quote]
Ok, I see what you are saying and believe me, its not that I have too much time onmy hands.
Understand that I have been in CAP contiuouslly since I was 15 years in the same squadron. My squadron is located in a unique area that needs a programlike CAP. I am trying to build a quality program for youths in my community. I know what CAP did for me as a youth and Iknow what it cando for other young people. However its frustrating when I have to do it alone. I set up O-rides, get promises from pilots, invite the cadets and one pilot shows up. Makes for a really long day. Lets see. We schedule a meeting to go over the CAPF 100 and go over the test for Gen ES and two folks show up. The others say they want to be ES qualified but dont show up for the training. Then there is the whole flying club thing I described above.
Put all these things together and realize i have been dealing with this for over 10 years and you can see my frustration.
Here is what I would do....have the squadron commander approach the flying club and ask them to revise their membership requirements to only allow current and qualified CAP Mission Pilots to join their flying club. That will ensure that they are meeting some minimum requirements as to proficiency and dedication to CAP, and that will be to the flying club's advantage. I am sure they would understand why you would ask this.
The reason you would want to do this is that these "CAP Members" are representing CAP on the base to some extent and if one of them have an accident it will reflect badly on CAP ("Oh yeah, that was a CAP guy. Obviously those guys don't know anything about flying....").
Now, if they flying club changes their rules this could actually be a benefit by putting these AF pilots in contact with dedicated CAP members and might help bring in some new recruits.
But not everyone in CAP is interested in being a Mission Pilot. Most of our good members want to fly cadets and give O-rides.
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 30, 2006, 09:21:52 PM
In my Squadron, we have a lot of pilots join but they join for the wrong reasons. There is a military flying club and in order to become a member you have to either be in the military, retired military, spouse of military, or CAP. The problem is they will join CAP to get a membership card and join the military flying club. We never see them at meetings or activities, yet they are always at the flying club flying the planes. Two guys have been in CAP since 1992 and only completed Level I training One is a Dentist and demanded we promote him to Captain because of his medical training. My commander, being a 74 year old man, vietnam era helicopter pilot who tries to be nice to everyone went ahead and approved his promotion to my dis satisfaction.
If they are not active in CAP....2b them. It's that simple.
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 30, 2006, 09:21:52 PM
This is why I am opposed to the military flying club letting CAP members join. I dont really have a problem withthem joining but if they are not active and just using CAP they need to let go from the club.
This is not a CAP problem but a aero club problem. Who they let join them has nothing to do with CAP. Just because people abuse this, don't take it away from those who are in CAP and are looking for a cheap aero club to join. The fix, as I just said, is to 2b those members who are not active with CAP. It is completely within the rights of the squadron commander to fix this problem.
The other thing I have got to ask...is why do you care? I mean...someone pays his dues, does his minimal training and then never shows up again? Who cares? Now if they are over at the aero club giving you squadron a bad name...then you have something to talk about.
Getting people active in you squadron is not the aero club's job...but your job.
Why do I care? Because I just spent a year in a freking dessert away from my family to earn the right to become part of a discounted flying club/. What did the lazy CAP guy do? Why should he enjoy the same priviledge as me? Exactly what has he done to earn that? I was always taught you get what you earn.
QuoteBut not everyone in CAP is interested in being a Mission Pilot. Most of our good members want to fly cadets and give O-rides.
Make up your mind. Your first post indicated that these people in the aero club were doing absolutely nothing in CAP. If they are giving o-rides for cadets they are doing someting positive and I don't understand what you're griping about.
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 31, 2006, 02:07:59 AM
Why do I care? Because I just spent a year in a freking dessert away from my family to earn the right to become part of a discounted flying club/. What did the lazy CAP guy do? Why should he enjoy the same priviledge as me? Exactly what has he done to earn that? I was always taught you get what you earn.
I was always taught that life isn't fair.
Did you really spend a year in the desert in order to join an aero club? Because, seriously, that's a pretty harsh membership bar to clear.
That said, aero clubs, even military ones, can extend membership to whomever they wish. While working for a former employer (an Alabama state agency) I was extended the privilege of joining an aero club at an Army post with a rather nice airfield (Redstone Arsenal). We were also afforded privileges at the local Army-sponsored credit union (Redstone Federal). We didn't get any level of hate or static from the Army folks over either issue. In fact, they were gracious about it.
So, as I'm reading it, you're upset because you feel the military aero club should not allow CAP members access to the fleet? Okay -- go complain to their leadership about how your military service is somehow diminished or minimized by their policies.
At Offutt AFB, the Aero Club grants membership to CAP members but when I was the squadron commander of the unit on base, I had to be very careful of letting people join CAP just to join the Aero Club. We would screen people for that very reason and wouldn't let them join CAP so they wouldn't have access to the Base. AFI 10-2701 allows installation commanders to grant CAP use of base facilities.
Quote from: RocketPropelled on December 31, 2006, 04:18:58 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 31, 2006, 02:07:59 AM
Why do I care? Because I just spent a year in a freking dessert away from my family to earn the right to become part of a discounted flying club/. What did the lazy CAP guy do? Why should he enjoy the same priviledge as me? Exactly what has he done to earn that? I was always taught you get what you earn.
I was always taught that life isn't fair.
Did you really spend a year in the desert in order to join an aero club? Because, seriously, that's a pretty harsh membership bar to clear.
You read incorrectly. I have no problem with CAPers being in the aero club. I have an issue with CAPers that are not active in CAP being inthe aero club.
That said, aero clubs, even military ones, can extend membership to whomever they wish. While working for a former employer (an Alabama state agency) I was extended the privilege of joining an aero club at an Army post with a rather nice airfield (Redstone Arsenal). We were also afforded privileges at the local Army-sponsored credit union (Redstone Federal). We didn't get any level of hate or static from the Army folks over either issue. In fact, they were gracious about it.
So, as I'm reading it, you're upset because you feel the military aero club should not allow CAP members access to the fleet? Okay -- go complain to their leadership about how your military service is somehow diminished or minimized by their policies.
I am a long time CAP member and the president of a Navy Flying Club. The clubs need CAP members.
Active duty club members are deployed regularly these days, CAP and retired military are needed to keep the clubs running.
I joined CAP to stay in the club system, upon learning what CAP does, I desided to become active in CAP. I have been a squadron commander and sar pilot. I invited one person to join CAP to join the flying club and he went on to be a group commander. IT GOES BOTH WAYS!
The regs require that a CAP member get a letter from there commander to join the club, but don't ask the clubs to inforce, they will not. They need members. I know a club that has patron applications in the office and those people you don't see even once.
With the deminishing reasons to remain in CAP a benifit is club membership. I recommend you join the nearest club to you.
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 30, 2006, 10:51:52 PM
Ok, I see what you are saying and believe me, its not that I have too much time onmy hands.
Understand that I have been in CAP contiuouslly since I was 15 years in the same squadron. My squadron is located in a unique area that needs a programlike CAP. I am trying to build a quality program for youths in my community. I know what CAP did for me as a youth and Iknow what it cando for other young people. However its frustrating when I have to do it alone. I set up O-rides, get promises from pilots, invite the cadets and one pilot shows up. Makes for a really long day. Lets see. We schedule a meeting to go over the CAPF 100 and go over the test for Gen ES and two folks show up. The others say they want to be ES qualified but dont show up for the training. Then there is the whole flying club thing I described above.
Put all these things together and realize i have been dealing with this for over 10 years and you can see my frustration.
I see that you may have some frustration within the squadron, I sympathize. The point of my criticism of your post was that you shouldn't discourage people from joining. Anyone other than medical or JAG who doesn't participate in your squadron you can choose to disenroll them.
However, I would discourage you to take that action unless the dead weight member is detrimental in some way to the squadron...which requires the member to show up on occasion so you can evaluate their character!
Who cares if they just want to join the military aero club. I ask again, how does that effect you? Well, in short, that member helps keep the military aero club afloat so that you can enjoy it too!
Can you redouble your recruiting efforts to bring in members who want to participate in your squadron? Does your squadron lack in ways that discourage continuous member participation?
And for my last jag...you were in the desert for only a year? What luck. Seriously, thanks for your service...in the desert and in CAP. Keep up the good work...
As a former squadron commander of a unit on an Air Force base, we had to monitor who we had that was allowed access to the installation. That is why we wouldn't just let someone join to get access to the Aero Club. In a post 9/11 world it was very difficult at times to have active members that weren't in the military(including myself) to have base access. After 9/11, we couldn't meet on base for about a month and a half. We had and still have to be careful who we allow access.
Darrell McMillan, Lt Col, CAP
Base access is a funcion of the relationship and profesionalism demonstrated.
Here in California other units were kicked out of there quarters on 9/11. The Navy base we are abourd was asking us for help.
Also, when the wing leason told the base CO that he could not give CAP members DOD decals, the CO said "I will run my base as I see fit".
Just some thoughts...
Other than stirring up the pot, and making us look bad, there's little value in trying to knock guys down from the aero club for non CAP-participation.
With that said, it might be time to review the requirements for their participation with the CC of that club, perhaps a waiting period, or active status w/CAP. Not all CAP pilots are mission pilots, but transport is not unreasonable.
He may be paying NHQ dues, but that is no guarantee the unit's getting anything.
A member on your roster, in name only, might as well not be. Kick him to your wing's inactive squadron, or the national reserve squadron,
Based on the comments on the attitude of the unit CC, it sounds like he doesn't care, so you're better off dropping it.
I respect your service as well, but the "I spent a year in the sandbox" comments are going to get old around your unit after a while.
Quote from: T34 Flyer on December 31, 2006, 08:24:14 AM
Base access is a funcion of the relationship and profesionalism demonstrated.
Here in California other units were kicked out of there quarters on 9/11. The Navy base we are abourd was asking us for help.
Also, when the wing leason told the base CO that he could not give CAP members DOD decals, the CO said "I will run my base as I see fit".
Why would the liason betelling the base they CAN'T give CAP guys decals, cheez, ours has been working the channels to make sure we keep ours!
(he rocks).
Quote from: dmac on December 31, 2006, 08:14:46 AM
As a former squadron commander of a unit on an Air Force base, we had to monitor who we had that was allowed access to the installation. That is why we wouldn't just let someone join to get access to the Aero Club. In a post 9/11 world it was very difficult at times to have active members that weren't in the military(including myself) to have base access. After 9/11, we couldn't meet on base for about a month and a half. We had and still have to be careful who we allow access.
Darrell McMillan, Lt Col, CAP
Screening your potential members is extremely important. It protects you, your cadets, and CAP as a whole. As a commander, you can choose who joins your unit. You can also threaten current but non-participating members with a 2B (Why?). So, you've turned away a potential member who is ony attracted to the aero club, you may have been able to attract this person's interest in squadron participation later on down the road such as a O-ride pilot or mission pilot. Did the base commander ask you to screen out these people? Why the elitist attitude?
I agree that is the case but you have little to no control over someone you never see, and it's not too cool to get blindsided with something that happened that as a commander you are responsible. We have a great relationship with the base and wish for that to continue. As long as the Navy doesn't have a problem with it in your case, that's cool. It really depends on the installation. We along with our State Director who is ultimately responsible for our access, are just being extra cautious. We can't get decals on our base.
Darrell R. McMillan, Lt Col, CAP
I'll clarify. CAP officers get officers decals. The liason had hartburn over that. And don't get me wrong, we screen everybody well. I can think of three that we rejected.
Also, like I said, don't expect aero club managers to help you keep people out. They need everybody to join.
Not being elitist at all, I asked potiential members that had expressed interest in membership for that sole purpose and explained that I couldn't allow that to happen after a discussion with the State Director, and gave him an opportunity to help in other ways with his limited schedule and he expressed interest in helping so he joined but didn't do much. He eventually dropped out due to a lack of time and I believe he went off somewhere else to I wouldn't 2b someone for that but would explain that with help from the person who is my replacement and an active duty Lt Col that we can't have someone with base access and not participating at all. They may be transferred to the reserve squadron and base access denied unless the State Director would allow the individual to have access. We never turned someone away just explained that we would like for them to assist in any way possible.
Quote from: sandman on December 30, 2006, 10:40:33 PM
Some monies go to the squadron, wing, and national. Think of it in this sense...the guy may not fully participate in person but he is donating to the cause with money.
Unless setup specifically as an additional cost to renewal, the unit's not getting anything. His Wing might.
Quote from: sandman on December 30, 2006, 10:40:33 PM
Two. Medical professionals, MD, DO, DDS, etc. are offered the rank of captain initially anyway. Promotions continue on only time in service.
Not necessarily. As discussed in another thread, it is based on Unit CC's recommendation that they are performing a service commensurate with advanced grade, and there is no guarantee you go directly to Captain. Captain is the max going in, not the guarantee.
Promotion after the initial special appointment requires that the member complete professional development up to the next grade, not just time,
Come in as a Captain? You must complete Level II & III + 3 years, echelon approval, and possibly a promotion board as well.
(That's in cases of non-military, which is the whole point here.)
Quote from: sandman on December 30, 2006, 10:40:33 PM
There is no DOPMA limitations on how many officers are allowed for a certain grade! Heck, I can be a Lt. Col. right now if I wanted (the pay is the same anyway), I just haven't put in the paperwork....and I have hardly done anything practically since CPPT. [/rant]
Only if you've completed Level IV, and are approved by the Unit, Group (if you have them) & Region Commander.
Quote from: T34 Flyer on December 31, 2006, 08:36:05 AM
I'll clarify. CAP officers get officers decals. The liason had hartburn over that. And don't get me wrong, we screen everybody well. I can think of three that we rejected.
When I was enlisted, I had officer stickers...neatist thing too...had a few buddies very confused ;D
As far as screening, I remember rejecting a couple...even had one guy impersonating an active duty Marine captain, in uniform! The guy got nervous when I asked to see his ID, you know, routine to process CAP paperwork. Excuse? "I left it at home, I'll just go get it". He got off the AFB before AF police arrived. Busted him later though...
Quote from: dmac on December 31, 2006, 08:42:47 AM
Not being elitist at all, I asked potiential members that had expressed interest in membership for that sole purpose and explained that I couldn't allow that to happen after a discussion with the State Director, and gave him an opportunity to help in other ways with his limited schedule and he expressed interest in helping so he joined but didn't do much. He eventually dropped out due to a lack of time and I believe he went off somewhere else to I wouldn't 2b someone for that but would explain that with help from the person who is my replacement and an active duty Lt Col that we can't have someone with base access and not participating at all. They may be transferred to the reserve squadron and base access denied unless the State Director would allow the individual to have access. We never turned someone away just explained that we would like for them to assist in any way possible.
That I can 100% see - you have to have a need for the decal.
The people who get them up here are people who have legit regular business there (i.e. Group HQ is there, I run an encampment there, etc.).
Every once in a while we'll get a new member hot to trot for the decal - let's face it, to those in the know, it's pretty cool, especially with the little blue bar.
But since anyone who needs it can get a day pass anyway, the list is kept
small and tight.
And Lord help you if you do ANYTHING to make the LO or CAP look bad up there. (his office is up there and the USN is REALLY good to us). We've worked too hard on culling the relationship to screw it up over a decal or something else trivial like that.
Quote from: dmac on December 31, 2006, 08:42:47 AM
Not being elitist at all, I asked potiential members that had expressed interest in membership for that sole purpose and explained that I couldn't allow that to happen after a discussion with the State Director, and gave him an opportunity to help in other ways with his limited schedule and he expressed interest in helping so he joined but didn't do much. He eventually dropped out due to a lack of time and I believe he went off somewhere else to I wouldn't 2b someone for that but would explain that with help from the person who is my replacement and an active duty Lt Col that we can't have someone with base access and not participating at all. They may be transferred to the reserve squadron and base access denied unless the State Director would allow the individual to have access. We never turned someone away just explained that we would like for them to assist in any way possible.
Sounds like it was handled correctly. If those up the food chain instruct you to screen out those candidates, then what can you do?
Would love to have a decal, the car I own now is the first one I have had without a decal, but that's no big deal. We have an entry authorization list for CAP members to get on base. I had a need but CAP at Offutt AFB didn't rate one. I didn't need a day pass, just showed my driver's license and my CAP ID card and got on pretty much anytime I needed to get on base.
Quote from: sandman on December 31, 2006, 08:48:53 AM
When I was enlisted, I had officer stickers...neatist thing too...had a few buddies very confused ;D
My CDS is also a civilian contractor, and spends a great deal of time on base - his sticker is black for a contractor, which causes all manner of looks when he shows up in blues. They don't know quite what to make of him.
Our library ID cards don't help the matter, though generally with a courteous explanation he's on his way.
Quote from: sandman on December 31, 2006, 08:48:53 AM
As far as screening, I remember rejecting a couple...even had one guy impersonating an active duty Marine captain, in uniform! The guy got nervous when I asked to see his ID, you know, routine to process CAP paperwork. Excuse? "I left it at home, I'll just go get it". He got off the AFB before AF police arrived. Busted him later though...
WOW!
Quote from: sandman on December 31, 2006, 08:48:53 AM
Quote from: T34 Flyer on December 31, 2006, 08:36:05 AM
I'll clarify. CAP officers get officers decals. The liason had hartburn over that. And don't get me wrong, we screen everybody well. I can think of three that we rejected.
When I was enlisted, I had officer stickers...neatist thing too...had a few buddies very confused ;D
As far as screening, I remember rejecting a couple...even had one guy impersonating an active duty Marine captain, in uniform! The guy got nervous when I asked to see his ID, you know, routine to process CAP paperwork. Excuse? "I left it at home, I'll just go get it". He got off the AFB before AF police arrived. Busted him later though...
We have had impersonators as well. Tracked them down and scraped there sticked off. We think this helps our relationship with the skipper.
Also, the library card is the big head scratcher. My mothers cousen was USAF/CAP he blames our HQ for the lack of a better or even a CAC card.
Quote from: dmac on December 31, 2006, 08:55:40 AM
Would love to have a decal, the car I own now is the first one I have had without a decal, but that's no big deal. We have an entry authorization list for CAP members to get on base. I had a need but CAP at Offutt AFB didn't rate one. I didn't need a day pass, just showed my driver's license and my CAP ID card and got on pretty much anytime I needed to get on base.
Same process at McChord AFB, Tacoma, WA.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 31, 2006, 08:44:04 AM
Quote from: sandman on December 30, 2006, 10:40:33 PM
Some monies go to the squadron, wing, and national. Think of it in this sense...the guy may not fully participate in person but he is donating to the cause with money.
Unless setup specifically as an additional cost to renewal, the unit's not getting anything. His Wing might.
Still, no harm. Why worry?
Quote from: Eclipse on December 31, 2006, 08:44:04 AM
Quote from: sandman on December 30, 2006, 10:40:33 PM
Two. Medical professionals, MD, DO, DDS, etc. are offered the rank of captain initially anyway. Promotions continue on only time in service.
Not necessarily. As discussed in another thread, it is based on Unit CC's recommendation that they are performing a service commensurate with advanced grade, and there is no guarantee you go directly to Captain. Captain is the max going in, not the guarantee.
Promotion after the initial special appointment requires that the member complete professional development up to the next grade, not just time,
Come in as a Captain? You must complete Level II & III + 3 years, echelon approval, and possibly a promotion board as well.
(That's in cases of non-military, which is the whole point here.)
What?
QuoteCAPR 35-5 21 AUGUST 2004 9
24. Training Requirements. Professional personnel must complete Level I and CPPT prior to appointment to CAP officer grade. Health Service personnel, legal officers, professional educators serving as aerospace education officers and financial professionals serving as finance officers are exempt from all other training requirements prescribed for promotion to additional grades. Completion of CAPP 221 is required for all chaplain promotions after initial appointment. Chaplains are exempt from all other training requirements prescribed for promotion to additional grades.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 31, 2006, 08:44:04 AM
Quote from: sandman on December 30, 2006, 10:40:33 PM
There is no DOPMA limitations on how many officers are allowed for a certain grade! Heck, I can be a Lt. Col. right now if I wanted (the pay is the same anyway), I just haven't put in the paperwork....and I have hardly done anything practically since CPPT. [/rant]
Only if you've completed Level IV, and are approved by the Unit, Group (if you have them) & Region Commander.
Review:
Quotec. Health Service Personnel. Upon successful completion of Level I and CPPT, unit commanders may initiate a CAPF 2 on health service personnel recommending appointment to an appropriate grade, as outlined below. The member's qualifications will be evaluated by the wing health service program officer, who will provide his or her comments and recommendations to the wing commander prior to approval. (Specific qualifications for medical personnel are outlined in CAPR 160-1.)
1) Second Lieutenant. Licensed practical or vocational nurse, paramedic, or other health technician.
2) First Lieutenant. Registered nurse, physician assistant or other health professional with a bachelors or masters degree as outlined in CAPR 160-1.
3) Captain. Licensed physician, dentist, or other health professional with an earned doctorate degree in a health care discipline.
4) Major. Licensed physician appointed a unit health service program officer in accordance with CAPR 160-1 who has served 1 year time-in-grade as a captain.
And...
Quote26. Promotions.
a. After initial appointment, professional personnel may be eligible for future promotions by satisfying the requirements outlined in paragraph 11, except:
1) Health service personnel and legal officers are exempt from senior member training requirements after Level I and CPPT. Legal officers, however, must complete the National Legal Officers' College prior to promotion to the grade of lieutenant colonel.
2) Professional educators serving as aerospace education officers and financial professional service as finance officers are exempt from senior member training requirements after Level I and CPPT for the purpose of promotion under the professional promotion category, but are encouraged to complete all available aerospace education or finance related training.
3) CAP chaplains must complete CAPP 221 for all promotions after initial appointment. CAPP 221A must be completed prior to promotion to the grade of lieutenant colonel. Additional related training is encouraged but not required for promotion.
4) After initial appointment, moral leadership officers must meet the regular senior member training and time-in-grade requirements to qualify for subsequent promotions.
5) Members may advance to the grades authorized in figure 6 (2Lt through major) as higher professional qualifications or experience are obtained (i.e., advanced degrees or years of continued professional experience) without reference to time-in-grade except the grade of major requires 1 year time-in-trade as a captain. Promotions to the grade of lieutenant colonel must meet the time-in-grade requirement.b. The promotion procedures outlined for senior members in paragraph 8 are applicable to professional personnel except that the wing health service program officer and wing legal officer will evaluate qualifications of their personnel (health service program officers and legal officers) prior to approval by the wing commander.
Granted, Wing or Region is not required to promote, the point is, why not?
Just a thought. I'd be careful about using the 2B to get rid of "Dead weight."
I used to have some dead weights in the squadron I commanded. Nice guys, but theu just wanted the uniform and the rank, and didn't want to do anything. I couldn't count on them for missions, for meetings, to give classes, nothing.
But once in a while, rarely, when I REALLY needed help, I'd call these guys, and sometimes they came through. It might be just to drive some cadets up to an activity, or help out at a project for a day, but once in a while, these slugs actually helped.
I can't give you any advice for bringling these guys along, since I don't know the specifics of the situation, but if you 2B them they're gone forever, and so is any chance to EVER use them for anything.
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 31, 2006, 02:07:59 AM
Why do I care? Because I just spent a year in a freking dessert away from my family to earn the right to become part of a discounted flying club/. What did the lazy CAP guy do? Why should he enjoy the same priviledge as me? Exactly what has he done to earn that? I was always taught you get what you earn.
Oh I see....you are not lamenting about dead weight CAP members....but that you see your "military" privilages being sucked up by some non-deploying civilian!
Get over it and move on.
If you feel that stongly go to the services chief and have him change the rules.
Quote from: dmac on December 31, 2006, 08:14:46 AM
As a former squadron commander of a unit on an Air Force base, we had to monitor who we had that was allowed access to the installation. That is why we wouldn't just let someone join to get access to the Aero Club. In a post 9/11 world it was very difficult at times to have active members that weren't in the military(including myself) to have base access. After 9/11, we couldn't meet on base for about a month and a half. We had and still have to be careful who we allow access.
Darrell McMillan, Lt Col, CAP
The Nellis Cadet Squadron meets on base and has no problem with not military members joining. I know of no CAP members that have ever had a problem getting onto base to do CAP buisness. Just because the squadron is on base does not mean you can or should limit who can join.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 31, 2006, 05:33:54 PM
Quote from: dmac on December 31, 2006, 08:14:46 AM
As a former squadron commander of a unit on an Air Force base, we had to monitor who we had that was allowed access to the installation. That is why we wouldn't just let someone join to get access to the Aero Club. In a post 9/11 world it was very difficult at times to have active members that weren't in the military(including myself) to have base access. After 9/11, we couldn't meet on base for about a month and a half. We had and still have to be careful who we allow access.
Darrell McMillan, Lt Col, CAP
The Nellis Cadet Squadron meets on base and has no problem with not military members joining. I know of no CAP members that have ever had a problem getting onto base to do CAP buisness. Just because the squadron is on base does not mean you can or should limit who can join.
Um, I think you're missing the point of this thread, its about people joining CAP for the purpose of obtaining sprcial access and then not participating in CAP.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 31, 2006, 06:17:01 PMUm, I think you're missing the point of this thread, its about people joining CAP for the purpose of obtaining special access and then not participating in CAP.
Already answered that...2b them if they don't participate, its not rocket science.
I was addressing my specific concern that on base units may think that they are not allowed to recruit non-military/mil-dep members. I was pointing out, that on Nellis AFB we have no problems with non-military people joining the squadron and getting access to the base.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 31, 2006, 07:12:01 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on December 31, 2006, 06:17:01 PMUm, I think you're missing the point of this thread, its about people joining CAP for the purpose of obtaining special access and then not participating in CAP.
Already answered that...2b them if they don't participate, its not rocket science.
You have that option of course, but John brings up a great point:
Quote from: John K.Just a thought. I'd be careful about using the 2B to get rid of "Dead weight."
I used to have some dead weights in the squadron I commanded. Nice guys, but theu just wanted the uniform and the rank, and didn't want to do anything. I couldn't count on them for missions, for meetings, to give classes, nothing.
But once in a while, rarely, when I REALLY needed help, I'd call these guys, and sometimes they came through. It might be just to drive some cadets up to an activity, or help out at a project for a day, but once in a while, these slugs actually helped.
I can't give you any advice for bringling these guys along, since I don't know the specifics of the situation, but if you 2B them they're gone forever, and so is any chance to EVER use them for anything.
Let's be thankful for all of our volunteers, even if they only show up once a year (or less ;)). I salute each one of you for the time you give as a volunteer :D !
Quote from: Eclipse on December 31, 2006, 08:29:30 AM
Just some thoughts...
Other than stirring up the pot, and making us look bad, there's little value in trying to knock guys down from the aero club for non CAP-participation.
With that said, it might be time to review the requirements for their participation with the CC of that club, perhaps a waiting period, or active status w/CAP. Not all CAP pilots are mission pilots, but transport is not unreasonable.
He may be paying NHQ dues, but that is no guarantee the unit's getting anything.
A member on your roster, in name only, might as well not be. Kick him to your wing's inactive squadron, or the national reserve squadron,
Based on the comments on the attitude of the unit CC, it sounds like he doesn't care, so you're better off dropping it.
I respect your service as well, but the "I spent a year in the sandbox" comments are going to get old around your unit after a while.
The comment is already old. I apoligize for using it. It was uneccessary.
Quote from: sandman on December 31, 2006, 07:24:04 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 31, 2006, 07:12:01 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on December 31, 2006, 06:17:01 PMUm, I think you're missing the point of this thread, its about people joining CAP for the purpose of obtaining special access and then not participating in CAP.
Already answered that...2b them if they don't participate, its not rocket science.
You have that option of course, but John brings up a great point:
Quote from: John K.Just a thought. I'd be careful about using the 2B to get rid of "Dead weight."
I used to have some dead weights in the squadron I commanded. Nice guys, but theu just wanted the uniform and the rank, and didn't want to do anything. I couldn't count on them for missions, for meetings, to give classes, nothing.
But once in a while, rarely, when I REALLY needed help, I'd call these guys, and sometimes they came through. It might be just to drive some cadets up to an activity, or help out at a project for a day, but once in a while, these slugs actually helped.
I can't give you any advice for bringing these guys along, since I don't know the specifics of the situation, but if you 2B them they're gone forever, and so is any chance to EVER use them for anything.
Let's be thankful for all of our volunteers, even if they only show up once a year (or less ;)). I salute each one of you for the time you give as a volunteer :D !
Oh...I know what you mean....this is a non issue. If a guy pays his dues and does not bring discredit to CAP I care less why he joined or if he ever shows up again. I'll take his money and ignore him.
I was only pointing out...if someone really does have a problem of any member not being active in CAP, all he has to do is serve a 2b and be done with it.
If a guy joins CAP to be eligible for aero club membership....who cares, if he joins so he can get cheap flight time on the air craft...who cares....if he joins just to be an "officer" and stroke his ego...who cares?
All I care about is does this individual stand up and take a job and follows through on his commitments. If he is taking up proficiency flying time but never shows up for SAREXs or real missions (and does not have a valid excuse) I will take the appropriate action (such as cutting him out of the flight schedule). If he becomes a liability to the program then I 2b him.
Again guys...it's not rocket science.
Quote from: lordmonar on December 31, 2006, 10:47:53 PM
Oh...I know what you mean....this is a non issue. If a guy pays his dues and does not bring discredit to CAP I care less why he joined or if he ever shows up again. I'll take his money and ignore him.
I was only pointing out...if someone really does have a problem of any member not being active in CAP, all he has to do is serve a 2b and be done with it.
If a guy joins CAP to be eligible for aero club membership....who cares, if he joins so he can get cheap flight time on the air craft...who cares....if he joins just to be an "officer" and stroke his ego...who cares?
All I care about is does this individual stand up and take a job and follows through on his commitments. If he is taking up proficiency flying time but never shows up for SAREXs or real missions (and does not have a valid excuse) I will take the appropriate action (such as cutting him out of the flight schedule). If he becomes a liability to the program then I 2b him.
Again guys...it's not rocket science.
Well said.
What is a 2B I have been reading BB, and 2b, how can you fire a CAP member by serving a 2B because you don't like them?? does not sound professional
please explain
CAP Form 2B is the form used to terminate a membership.
9. Demotions. If an officer fails to perform the duties satisfactorily or conducts himself/herself in a manner unbecoming his or her grade, the unit commander will recommend demotion to an appropriate grade. The unit commander will initiate this action on a CAPF 2, which will be routed through channels to the promoting authority, who is also the demoting authority. The demoting authority will indicate approval or disapproval and sign the CAPF 2. If approved, he or she will forward it to National Headquarters for validation; if disapproved, he or she will return it through channels to the unit commander. National Headquarters will return the CAPF 2 effecting the demotion through channels with a membership card showing the senior member's new grade. After the new grade has been posted to the member's personnel file, the CAPF 2 and membership card will be given to the member concerned by the unit commander, or commander's designated representative, who will retrieve and destroy the membership card showing the member's former grade. NOTE: Chaplains will not be demoted. A chaplain who fails to perform his or her duties satisfactorily or whose conduct is unbecoming will be terminated from membership in Civil Air Patrol in accordance with CAPR 35-5.
Ok
Reading 35-5 WOW powerful tool for getting rid of deadbeats
I know it is commonly used against cadets in my area for not attending meetings and similar issues. Rarely have I seen it used against seniors, other than in mostly "political" situations.
Without looking up the 35-5 words, I seem to recall that there is a 2c paragraph: which blocks the renewal of membership. I used that once in a situation that I don't care to discuss in public. Will be willing to describe it in a PM, if anyone is interested. The incident in question was not "political" in any sense of the word.
It worked and that was all that was necessary.
Quote from: bosshawk on January 01, 2007, 11:47:11 PM
Without looking up the 35-5 words, I seem to recall that there is a 2c paragraph: which blocks the renewal of membership. I used that once in a situation that I don't care to discuss in public. Will be willing to describe it in a PM, if anyone is interested. The incident in question was not "political" in any sense of the word.
It worked and that was all that was necessary.
Can't find that in either 35-5 or 35-3.
Quote from: lordmonar on January 02, 2007, 12:12:33 AM
Quote from: bosshawk on January 01, 2007, 11:47:11 PM
Without looking up the 35-5 words, I seem to recall that there is a 2c paragraph: which blocks the renewal of membership. I used that once in a situation that I don't care to discuss in public. Will be willing to describe it in a PM, if anyone is interested. The incident in question was not "political" in any sense of the word.
It worked and that was all that was necessary.
Can't find that in either 35-5 or 35-3.
Wasn't the 2c option removed around the same time that the MARB was established?
wow it just seems like a lot of this is a major slander and libel suit waiting to happen, I mean can we all just get along. Secret tribunals and and all that maybe we should have our own GITMO, lets profile the wierd looking seniors and they can't fly on a SAR, maybe we can eliminate all the green party members too, and everyone over 50 (oh rats that means me too)
No just kidding I really mean all democrats who drive green cars
2c could certainly have been removed. It has been at least 5 or 6 years since I used it and I haven't been a Sq CC for almost that long. Just brought it up to point out one more avenue for dealing with those who we don't want or can't use. This particular member disobeyed a direct order from me: don't pay to do that with me.
Ahh, the old non-renewal option. I've heard many tales of it being used, again mostly for political reasons, but never any first hand knowledge.
Well, if you had a Squadron of 20 members and 4 werent pulling their weight, then yeah, it wouldnt mater. But when you have a Squadron of 12 members and 7 arent pulling their weight, it effects the squadron.
You cannot 2B a senior member for not participating. It's not listed in the regs as a reason to terminate. Just for cadets.
You COULD try to demote them, as not participating sounds like grounds for the non-performance clause. But I doubt it would stick, as they would point out all the deadwood folks in the Wing Ghost squadron who aren't participating either, and haven't been demoted!
This is yet ANOTHER good reason for active and inactive membership categories - then you could work with the flying club to make sure they only admit and keep active CAP members. (incidentally, that's what the local club here does, but they use a memo from the CAP Squadron CC as proof of "active" status. A category in the National database would sure make life easier...)
Quote from: RiverAux on January 02, 2007, 12:21:17 AM
Ahh, the old non-renewal option. I've heard many tales of it being used, again mostly for political reasons, but never any first hand knowledge.
It's no longer an option. From what I heard, too many unit/cc's were using it without informing the member (there was no requirement to do so), and the member found out six months later when they tried to renew. Since they didn't appeal the action within the proscribed time limit (30 days?) because they were never told about the action, they were screwed.
This goes back to the active/inactive debate.
Who cares? So a guy joins CAP so he can get access to the aero club and never shows up again. It is the aero clubs problem not CAP's.
Here in Nevada we have CAP license plates. They guy fills out the form the CC signs it and he has the plates. (they cost extra by the way). If the guy goes inactive....who cares? We are tasking the unit CC's to monitor a persons activities and making him go trough hoops to remove the "perks" the inactive person has.
Again...who cares. So long as they are not giving CAP a bad name...I've got better things to worry about.
It is very much my squadron's problem when we depend uponthat member to teach a class or get paperwork in order.
Here is an example. We have such a member who is the personnel officer. Ok, we asked him to go over the various personnel files with us since most us dont know them. We put that on the trainign schedule for that night. He didnt show up. So not only did we not get good training on personel files. we had nothing to do for that evening. So, basically members sat around and told old war stories. What do you thik visitors to the suadron thought? They saw unorganization and members that really didnt have a clue as to what was going on.
Like I said before, if it were one or two members doing this you are right, it wouldnt matter, but we have a suadron of 20 seniors and 12 are not active. They are members and promist to show up and do things and then let us down week after week.
Thats how it effects me and my squadron.
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 16, 2007, 09:54:57 PM
It is very much my squadron's problem when we depend uponthat member to teach a class or get paperwork in order.
Here is an example. We have such a member who is the personnel officer. Ok, we asked him to go over the various personnel files with us since most us dont know them. We put that on the trainign schedule for that night. He didnt show up. So not only did we not get good training on personel files. we had nothing to do for that evening. So, basically members sat around and told old war stories. What do you thik visitors to the suadron thought? They saw unorganization and members that really didnt have a clue as to what was going on.
Like I said before, if it were one or two members doing this you are right, it wouldnt matter, but we have a suadron of 20 seniors and 12 are not active. They are members and promist to show up and do things and then let us down week after week.
Thats how it effects me and my squadron.
Sure...of course...I agree with you 100% anyone who steps up to take on a job and then does not follow through should be delt with accordingly. These guys will find that they are no longer of the flight schedule, not on the ES call out list, no longer being considered for promotion. But I am not going to go out of my way to change their membership status, or call the aeroclub and tell them how inactive they are in the squadron, or DMV.
We can only focus on internal processes and not worry about what the rest of the world is doing.
If the person joins CAP just to join the Aero Club, to the members of the Aero Club (i.e. the AF, retired AF -- in other words potentially useful CAP recruits), that person IS THE CAP. Do we want some lunk just paying CAP dues to be the one representing us on base?
It must be nice to have a Squadron with all staff positions having their work caught up so that when the Personnel officer doesn't show up to run a training class, nobody has anything to do but sit around. I'm glad your finance Officer doesn't need to write checks or give a finance report. Or the Admin officer is all caught up on paperwork. Or is it poor leadership that there is nobody in the Squadron that can explain their duries? Or that the Squadron is so correct on uniforms and C&C that they can't get a former cader to run a quick class. Or that the Commander can't run a brainstorming session to plan future activities for seniors and cadets. Sounds like a Squadron that doesn't have it's act together.
Quote from: lordmonar on January 16, 2007, 10:06:47 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 16, 2007, 09:54:57 PM
It is very much my squadron's problem when we depend uponthat member to teach a class or get paperwork in order.
Here is an example. We have such a member who is the personnel officer. Ok, we asked him to go over the various personnel files with us since most us dont know them. We put that on the trainign schedule for that night. He didnt show up. So not only did we not get good training on personel files. we had nothing to do for that evening. So, basically members sat around and told old war stories. What do you thik visitors to the suadron thought? They saw unorganization and members that really didnt have a clue as to what was going on.
Like I said before, if it were one or two members doing this you are right, it wouldnt matter, but we have a suadron of 20 seniors and 12 are not active. They are members and promist to show up and do things and then let us down week after week.
Thats how it effects me and my squadron.
Sure...of course...I agree with you 100% anyone who steps up to take on a job and then does not follow through should be delt with accordingly. These guys will find that they are no longer of the flight schedule, not on the ES call out list, no longer being considered for promotion. But I am not going to go out of my way to change their membership status, or call the aeroclub and tell them how inactive they are in the squadron, or DMV.
We can only focus on internal processes and not worry about what the rest of the world is doing.
Ok, but if they dont fly CAP inthe first place and dont give a rats butt about ES, then takning off a schedule doesnt really matter to them. They dont fly CAP airplanes anyway, so they dont care. They only joined CAP to join the flying club which they are very active in. So, I feel the flying club should be their carrot to take away. CAP means nothing to them. They arent involved.
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 16, 2007, 10:34:12 PMOk, but if they dont fly CAP inthe first place and dont give a rats butt about ES, then takning off a schedule doesnt really matter to them. They dont fly CAP airplanes anyway, so they dont care. They only joined CAP to join the flying club which they are very active in. So, I feel the flying club should be their carrot to take away. CAP means nothing to them. They arent involved.
Okay...I say again my first. 2b them if it means that much to you. When/if they ever discover they have lost their aeroclub privilages and come back to you to renew....you explain what is expected of them.
Simple.
Quote from: BillB on January 16, 2007, 10:23:59 PM
It must be nice to have a Squadron with all staff positions having their work caught up so that when the Personnel officer doesn't show up to run a training class, nobody has anything to do but sit around. I'm glad your finance Officer doesn't need to write checks or give a finance report. Or the Admin officer is all caught up on paperwork. Or is it poor leadership that there is nobody in the Squadron that can explain their duries? Or that the Squadron is so correct on uniforms and C&C that they can't get a former cader to run a quick class. Or that the Commander can't run a brainstorming session to plan future activities for seniors and cadets. Sounds like a Squadron that doesn't have it's act together.
First of all , we have no active cadets in my squadron. Its another long story. Secondly I wish the commander would have a brainstorming session. He is a 74 year old Vietnam pilot vet and his mind doesnt work that way. Wat Admin officer? Havent seen him at a meeting since June.
My advise is... talk to the management of the club and explain them the situation. Insist that they check with CAP on the active status of members who are coming in to join. Perhaps even ask for the club to request references?
Are you upset that they get to be members of the club or that they are in CAP? If it's the club membership... hey, clubs determine their own members. Why do you care? If it's them joining CAP and doing nothing... they pay dues that pay for our operations. If it's them being inactive and still on your rosters... I brought this up in the "active vs. inactive" thread. Either way, I bet the president of the club would appreciate you telling him that this issue exists and that these specific members aren't actually active.
Unlike generally inactive CAP members who just don't bother to show up, this situation is that there are inactive CAP members using their CAP status to join another organization. I think it is perfectly appropriate for us to be a little bit tougher on them since they do raise the potentially of making CAP look bad to folks that are important to us.
Quote from: lordmonar on January 17, 2007, 12:12:49 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 16, 2007, 10:34:12 PMOk, but if they dont fly CAP inthe first place and dont give a rats butt about ES, then takning off a schedule doesnt really matter to them. They dont fly CAP airplanes anyway, so they dont care. They only joined CAP to join the flying club which they are very active in. So, I feel the flying club should be their carrot to take away. CAP means nothing to them. They arent involved.
Okay...I say again my first. 2b them if it means that much to you. When/if they ever discover they have lost their aeroclub privilages and come back to you to renew....you explain what is expected of them.
Simple.
And I say again:
You cannot 2B a senior for non-attendance.
As for the flying club thing - these are government clubs. They are kind enough to allow CAP members in, presumably because those members do some work (through CAP) for the government.
If at some point somebody up high finds out that "being a CAP member means paying dues and doing nothing" we could see a move to not allow CAP members in. Which would hurt our active members who do fit the generally held description of what a CAP is, and deserve the privilidge.
Quote from: Dragoon on January 19, 2007, 06:44:18 PM
And I say again:
You cannot 2B a senior for non-attendance.
Quote from: CAPR 35-3 Para 4.b.(5)(5) Habitual failure to perform duty
Can too.
And the guy will just point out all the members in the ghost squadron who do nothing, threaten to sue, and will be allowed to stay.
We must enforce our policies universally, or be open to charges of discrimination and favoritism. That's what killed the non-renewal process.
Quote from: Dragoon on January 19, 2007, 07:31:41 PM
And the guy will just point out all the members in the ghost squadron who do nothing, threaten to sue, and will be allowed to stay.
We must enforce our policies universally, or be open to charges of discrimination and favoritism. That's what killed the non-renewal process.
Not in my squadron. If wing wants to transfer him...that is there look out...and there adminstative headache.
What was wrong with the non-renewal process was that it was administrative action on part of the squadron/wing/group/national with out informing the individual.
If he was such a head ache in the first place that you did not want his services any more....why not just boot him.
I agree that we need to enforce our policies universally.....and personally I think this is a non issue. I don't care if the guy joined CAP just to be eligible to join the base aeroclub or get access to the O-club or what ever. If he does not show up at meetings...again I don't care.
But if this sort of member does bother you....and you have called and told him that you expect to see him at meetings and doing what ever assigned duty you have given him...and he fails to do so....you CAN and SHOULD 2b him.
So he threatens to sue. Not my look out. The wing has to approve the 2b and he has the option to go to the NB with his appeal.
If he is going to sue anyone it will be national not me. And in his suit the burden of proof will be on him to show that he did in fact perform his assigned duties satisfactorily.
You originally said that we can't 2b him for non attendance...but we can...now you are saying that we can't 2b him for fear of a law suit.
No, you can't 2b him for non-attendance.
As you astutely point out, you can try 2b for "habitual failure to perform duty".
I think that action would fail. Because you'd have to describe what his duty was that he failed at! And it would be extremely easy to win on appeal, because of all the members nationwide whose duty is "pay dues"
Otherwise you could kick out anyone by assigning them more duties than they could handle, and then kicking them out when they fail. It ain't gonna fly - because we have no minimum duty standard.
You're right - he won't sue you. But dollars to donuts your action will fail. Meaning - you can't 2b him for non-attendance. You can try - and fail.
Has anyone every successfully used the "duty perfomance clause" to 2b someone. ... Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
Well as they say....your milage may vary.
Quote from: Dragoon on January 19, 2007, 09:09:43 PM
No, you can't 2b him for non-attendance.
As you astutely point out, you can try 2b for "habitual failure to perform duty".
I think that action would fail. Because you'd have to describe what his duty was that he failed at! And it would be extremely easy to win on appeal, because of all the members nationwide whose duty is "pay dues"
Otherwise you could kick out anyone by assigning them more duties than they could handle, and then kicking them out when they fail. It ain't gonna fly - because we have no minimum duty standard.
You're right - he won't sue you. But dollars to donuts your action will fail. Meaning - you can't 2b him for non-attendance. You can try - and fail.
Has anyone every successfully used the "duty perfomance clause" to 2b someone. ... Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
Since hese guys dont really care about CAP.I doubt they would even go through the trouble of an appeal. CAP is just not that serious to them to spend that kind of time on.
Unless....it got them kicked out of the flying club! Which is kinda the point.
And when they appeal....the commander can just show that they "habitually failed to perform duty" and that would be that.
Just because regulations are not enforced at other locations does not mean you automatically get a pass.
Still waiting to hear from anyone who's used that clause in an actual 2b case. I think it's got no teeth.
Teeth or no teeth is about whether someone has the gumtion to stand up for the rules.
Legally speaking (and I am not a lawyer) I can't see how a ghost member could possible prove that he in fact was performing his assigned duties, if he was not showing up for meetings. And just because other squadrons do not enforce this rule does not mean you can't either. That would be like someone saying because California gives you a 10% lee way on the speed limit, then every state must do so.
Bottom line....if you really wanted to....you have the regulations to back you up. Is it worth the effort? No....as I said before...I don't care why they join or if they ever come back. If they are over at the Aeroclub and making a bad name for CAP then I care and I would deal with it. But othewise....ignore it.
I guess I'm just looking for a single case, anywhere in the United States, where someone has been 2b'd for this clause.
If there isn't one, it lends considerable doubt as to whether it is a usable tool to solve this problem (which I know you don't think IS a problem, but that's a whole nuther kettle 'o fish).
Right now, I'd rather see work put into establishing a minimum standard for active membership, which might help us get some WORK out of these guys who do nothing. Because they'd have a choice - work to keep your flying club priviledges or get thrown out of both CAP AND the flying club.
Result for us? Linking WORKING in CAP to getting priviledges out of the CAP. Increases morale of working members, and potentially gets us a little more help. But at the expense of the dues payments of the slugs (which, personally, I'd be willing to forego, but dues money can be quite addictive...)
I thing it would be more productive to just ignore these guys.
Any sort of "standard of activity" would entail an additional adminstrative burden to track and monitory participation. It would entail additional 2b's by squadron commanders who were following the regulations to the letter. Or it would result in just another set of rules that the squadrons just ignore because there is no value added.
So I go back to my original statment. Ignore these guys unless they are causing a problem. If you feel you have to cut your dead weight (for what ever reason, whether it is a couple buy who join to get aero club access or some guy who joined and then never showed up again) then process their 2bs and be done with it.
If they protest...and they win....then you go right back to ignoring them.
So....ignore them in the first place and you save yourself valuable time.
Quote from: wingnut on January 02, 2007, 12:17:36 AM
wow it just seems like a lot of this is a major slander and libel suit waiting to happen, I mean can we all just get along. Secret tribunals and and all that maybe we should have our own GITMO, lets profile the wierd looking seniors and they can't fly on a SAR, maybe we can eliminate all the green party members too, and everyone over 50 (oh rats that means me too)
No just kidding I really mean all democrats who drive green cars
:o
Lucked out, I have a green truck ::)